So far, Dark Heart of Skyrim told the same story FOUR times.

Faulgor

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that the writing team has had to make a lengthy story and filler to last a while. Unlike with the one off and stand alone expansions of morrowind and summerset where the story ends and clues are given as to where you'll go next.

The writing dropped off after orsinium, it by far overshadows any other story since. It was the last time ZOS put forth effort and not just thought about $$

It was also one of the last pieces of content that were still developed in the P2P business model, along with Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. I think that factors in a lot, but it's still confusing to me that the people who gave us Orsinium could also produce Greymoor.
That makes it look like anything else was just good by accident and not because they know what they're doing.

kind_hero wrote: »

To the OP

I agree with you, the story felt underwhelming. They had this huge opportunity with Skyrim, and they just went the easy route, by copy-pasting some filler plot to sell this to the Skyrim fans.

The only thing I hated about Elsweyr story quest is that part of the quest when you have to push boxes in a maze. Except that Elsweyr was OK, even though I got bored of the dragon theme after a few months. Elsweyr had some memorable characters like Abnur Tharn, Zaji, Sai... Greymoor lacks cool characters and it is full of plotholes and bugs.

The player can't figure out what Blackreach really is.... is it a legend, a well kept secret? None believes it really exists, yet people are showing up in Blackreach like it is a tourist trap. Also, everyone seems to ignore the huge Greymoor palace, and we do not get a background about this place, why it was built so large, what was its purpose?

Elsweyr had probably the best prologue. The two dungeons were perfectly tied with the prologue, you gathered the stone tablets for Tharn. Releasing the dragons was so epic, you felt that Tharn is wrong and something bad would happen, you had a nice build up looking at the Kunzari's story on the walls.

What is a complete mystery to me is how they would fumble on Skyrim. Not only do they not manage to find a unique story in hundreds of years of lore background for this famous province and just opt for a retelling of the Dawnguard DLC (ancient vampire clan in Skyrim), they also do it worse. Worse even than other stories they themselves already told in Skyrim (Eastmarch, the Rift), about Vampires (Rivenspire) or Reachmen (Glenumbra, Bangkorai, the Rift, etc).
And on top of that, they completely mishandle Blackreach, which warrants a topic on its own. It's a complete mystery, yet everyone knows its name and can take a lift down there anytime. In TESV it's a deeply hidden ruin, last holdout of a decrepit race and civilization, with secrets left by the Dwarves that dwell in the darkest bowels of the magical planet of Nirn. In Greymoor it's just a pretty big cave you can port in to.

As for Elsweyr, I came in really biased to that because according to previous lore, there shouldn't be any Khajiiti kingdom of RImmen at the time. Rimmen is Akaviri, and they "solved" that issue by hiding all Tsaesci in the Tonenaka. So I could never stand Khamira because she claims a throne that doesn't exist (in my book). I also thought the story tried to combine too many features, i.e. Khajiit, Dragons and Necromancers, without giving any one of them the attention they deserve.
But just as a story? It works, miles better than Greymoor anyway. I actually played through it three times, and enjoyed it more each time. It also has some decent cinematic moments and battles, whereas Greymoor feels like a series of unspectacular side quests.
In fact, the tutorial is probably the most cinematic one, when you see ... that vampire villain and a reach witch from a distance. I don't recall camera angles and environments used more creatively in the main quest. Such a shame.

ElvenOverlord

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

To top it all off, the mystery is completely irrelevant to the story. The husks? The fact that it's the Gray Host? Coven magic? Protective charms with Arkay's blessing? All completely irrelevant. We do not shield the people from the magic, we do not use the alchemist dude's knowledge, we just kill the bad guy whose death stops the whole thing (very conveniently). The whole magical mumbo-jumbo and breadcrumb finding that 3/4s of Greymoor was about, had no impact on the story.

I agree with everything you wrote, but this especially annoyed me. Over half the quest felt like investigative filler (go here - look up some clues - then meet Lyris/Fenn/Svana over there and do the same - oh and btw this is just to drag the story out and make it look like more content than it really is)

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter. It's made abundantly clear from the beginning that Reachmen are involved, then I get to Dragonbridge (I think?) and, like an idiot, I am forced to ask: "Who are the Reachmen?" 🤪

To be fair that's nothing new. They always have the Vestige asking stupid questions with obvious answers. Or have us doing stupid crap like refusing to murder someone but thinking bringing food from the person who wants them dead is smart.

theskymoves

You know, you don't HAVE to ask "Who are the Reachmen?", or "What's House Ravenwatch?", or any other question that feels OOC or makes your Vestige sound like an idiot. Do what I do: Just ignore those lines. Skip them. Don't use them.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

theskymoves wrote: »

You know, you don't HAVE to ask "Who are the Reachmen?", or "What's House Ravenwatch?", or any other question that feels OOC or makes your Vestige sound like an idiot. Do what I do: Just ignore those lines. Skip them. Don't use them.

That used to be an option. However, I found that NPC interactions in Greymoor often require your character to say some utterly stupid things to advance the quest. Your only options are "Say stupid thing" and "Goodbye". This is either lackluster design of a dialog tree, or a misguided attempt at catering to players who would click past any exposition and then complain that they don't understand the story. (Misguided, because those players probably won't read or listen to what the NPC has to say anyway.)

theskymoves

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

theskymoves wrote: »

You know, you don't HAVE to ask "Who are the Reachmen?", or "What's House Ravenwatch?", or any other question that feels OOC or makes your Vestige sound like an idiot. Do what I do: Just ignore those lines. Skip them. Don't use them.

That used to be an option. However, I found that NPC interactions in Greymoor often require your character to say some utterly stupid things to advance the quest. Your only options are "Say stupid thing" and "Goodbye". This is either lackluster design of a dialog tree, or a misguided attempt at catering to players who would click past any exposition and then complain that they don't understand the story. (Misguided, because those players probably won't read or listen to what the NPC has to say anyway.)

I'm playing through Greymoor right now. I skip those lines. It hasn't impeded my progress at at any point.

Nareya726

kind_hero wrote: »

Nareya726 wrote: »

They hyped up the members of house Ravenwatch returning, yet it barely makes a difference if you played Rivenspire or not prior to Greymoor. I would've loved to have more dialogue options with Fenn, Gwendis, and Adusa that reflect on our previous interactions with House Ravenwatch.

There are several lines of dialogue regarding Rivenspire, if you did that story. Adusa recognises you -ah the hero of Rivenspire- you have extra dialogue with Gwendis, but almost none with Fennorian.
You get a lot of extra dialogue with Nerano if you completed CWC, Summerset and Elsweyr.

But you get no lines with Jorrun (I have Tamriel Hero, and did the story for all DLCs) or his son. You get some extra dialogue with Gabrielle, two extra options if you did the main quest and the Summerset story. Rigurt also recognises you, Narsis Dren has a different dialogue, and so on. But all this is inconsistent.

Fair point. Maybe I'm being too harsh or letting my personal expectations get in the way of judgement, but aside from the recognition lines and brief mention of the Lightless Remnant it just felt like the dialogue was an afterthought. I was hoping they'd be more tied into the story like Darien and Raz in Summerset, especially with Fenn being one of the main characters.


I haven't found Neramo or Rigurt yet but I'm looking forward to that as I continue to play. Neramo has always been one of my favorite side characters.

Galwylin

theskymoves wrote: »

You know, you don't HAVE to ask "Who are the Reachmen?", or "What's House Ravenwatch?", or any other question that feels OOC or makes your Vestige sound like an idiot. Do what I do: Just ignore those lines. Skip them. Don't use them.

Part of the trouble with that is you never know until you ask if there is new or relevant quest information behind those questions. Role playing games aren't a new thing. Especially for this company so branching dialog that builds off previous dialog shouldn't be difficult so it comes across as low effort for players who have played for any length of time. I don't think people want to depend entirely of the compass pointer because they didn't click on a seemingly dumb question within dialog. And if I remember correctly you get stuff about what Reachmen are doing now in that question and the previous stuff is ignored. IIRC

All this reminds me of the Cathar in SWTOR which was introduced as a race later in the game's life but one of the earliest quests starting out is having some trooper explain to your Cathar character what a Cathar was. Unimportant but just shows the devs didn't care enough to even address once they were added.

Hurbster

theskymoves wrote: »

You know, you don't HAVE to ask "Who are the Reachmen?", or "What's House Ravenwatch?", or any other question that feels OOC or makes your Vestige sound like an idiot. Do what I do: Just ignore those lines. Skip them. Don't use them.

Ok, well how about the fact that there is a quest in which an NPC used the rope crossbow from Dragonhold and yet I appear to have forgotten such a thing even exists. Or what the attachment points are...

KMarble

TheShadowScout wrote: »

It actually would have been quite nifty if they tied the greymoor reachmen stories to their defeats in the questlines covering Bangkorai, The Rift and Wrothgar (orsinium)... alas, paths not taken I guess?

I'm kind of glad they didn't, tbh. In Wrothgar we met a brave Khajiit that had (IMO) one of the most touching stories in the game.

We meet him again in S. Elsweyr, where he's reduced to a inept, helpless mess and is involved in a uninspired story. I kept on hoping there would be a twist at the end, but no. It was a straight forward silly story.

One thing I miss from Wrothgar and Morrowind (the expansion) is that even the "small" side quests were interesting and were fleshed out enough that we got to learn something about the NPC asking for our help.

*I just looked up about Neramo because I didn't remember meeting him in Greymoor and was wondering if I missed a quest. Turns out his is such a simple fetch quest, I didn't even notice Neramo was the quest giver.

One of the highlights of ESO for me was the fact that the fetch quests were so creative and well written, I didn't even notice they were fetch quests. Something happened to change that, and it isn't a good change.

Nomadic_Atmoran

It really feels like every Writer was given a different part of the story and told to do the exact thing with their portion of the story. So you never ever get to the bottom of anything because once you move on to the next portion of the mystery it loops back to the beginning. Its pretty god damn infuriating. But this is what it looks like when you set up a BIG chapter of content with a storyline that could potentially be started and wrapped up in a single dungeon run. Things are intentionally left vague and on a constant cliff hanger because they need to stretch it out far beyond what it ever deserved.

The whole thing with the Gray Host is so damn vague and poorly thought out they didn't even bother to try and flesh things out. So we seem to have no further insight into this mysterious ancient evil army than we had prior to the release of this chapter. I'm more than half way through the storyline on PS4 and I havent had an ounce of satisfaction with any of the main story quests thus far. No interesting new lore, no surprising twists, no captivating intrigue, no feeling of pushing back the threat. Just frustrating ending after frustrating ending to each quest I'm given. Oh you defeated the cultists at X....Well too bad because nothing is going to come of your actions.

Rake

did you know witches and vampires are up to no good

Faulgor

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

The whole thing with the Gray Host is so damn vague and poorly thought out they didn't even bother to try and flesh things out. So we seem to have no further insight into this mysterious ancient evil army than we had prior to the release of this chapter. I'm more than half way through the storyline on PS4 and I havent had an ounce of satisfaction with any of the main story quests thus far. No interesting new lore, no surprising twists, no captivating intrigue, no feeling of pushing back the threat. Just frustrating ending after frustrating ending to each quest I'm given. Oh you defeated the cultists at X....Well too bad because nothing is going to come of your actions.

You know what's a real shame? There are actually nuggets that paint our main villain, Rada al-Saran, as an interesting character. He seems mainly concerned about the well-being of his fallen comrades who are being tortured in Coldharbour. Gunning for some kind of domination doesn't appear to be on his immediate agenda, the harrowstorms are just a means to an end.

Not a day passes when my thoughts do not dwell upon my beloved brothers and sisters in arms. Tormented in Coldharbour, they suffer under the terms of a deal struck by Styriche, the infinite fool. After eons of calculation, I will soon deliver them from the wretched pit. Would that I could save them all at once. But my needs require that I first deliver the bridgehead. Only then will the Gray Host's return be assured. They are my body, my strength. The limbs and organs of my strategy to not only set my siblings free, but deliver unto them their just reward.

...

I will not abide any further threats to our goal. My family will be delivered from their torment, and not even Molag Bal himself can stop me.

That could make for an interesting villain, but none of it is addressed or actually spelled out in the quests. It's just a side note.

As for interesting new lore, did you know that Greymoor castle already existed when the Dwemer built in Blackreach? I learned that from a loading screen, lol.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

One thing that blew my mind, was a casual dialogue throwaway about vampires and werewolves being trapped in Coldharbour. My immediate reaction was "whoa, that seems wrong, werewolves go to Hircine's realm. I wonder what bit of story or lore will be introduced to explain this!". Turns out that was how far that goes. A+ story-telling.

Pinja

I mean if they were to spit out PVP content, you wouldn't have to worry about a story anymore!
The neglect is real.

NoodleESO

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

One thing that blew my mind, was a casual dialogue throwaway about vampires and werewolves being trapped in Coldharbour. My immediate reaction was "whoa, that seems wrong, werewolves go to Hircine's realm. I wonder what bit of story or lore will be introduced to explain this!". Turns out that was how far that goes. A+ story-telling.

I did not even think about how lore breaking that is!!

Czekoludek

After they ban me for 3 days for criticising their writing I can only tell you this: It will be worse. If company desperately try to avoid criticism and don't show any resolution to do something better, don't expect that it will be better.

SilverIce58

Faulgor wrote: »

As for interesting new lore, did you know that Greymoor castle already existed when the Dwemer built in Blackreach? I learned that from a loading screen, lol.

I heard that from that Argonian and Dunmer talking about it in Dusktown. It would've been interesting to hear about it during the quest with Gwendis and Adusa-daro, but guess that's asking too much.

dinokstrunz

Faulgor wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

The whole thing with the Gray Host is so damn vague and poorly thought out they didn't even bother to try and flesh things out. So we seem to have no further insight into this mysterious ancient evil army than we had prior to the release of this chapter. I'm more than half way through the storyline on PS4 and I havent had an ounce of satisfaction with any of the main story quests thus far. No interesting new lore, no surprising twists, no captivating intrigue, no feeling of pushing back the threat. Just frustrating ending after frustrating ending to each quest I'm given. Oh you defeated the cultists at X....Well too bad because nothing is going to come of your actions.

You know what's a real shame? There are actually nuggets that paint our main villain, Rada al-Saran, as an interesting character. He seems mainly concerned about the well-being of his fallen comrades who are being tortured in Coldharbour. Gunning for some kind of domination doesn't appear to be on his immediate agenda, the harrowstorms are just a means to an end.

Not a day passes when my thoughts do not dwell upon my beloved brothers and sisters in arms. Tormented in Coldharbour, they suffer under the terms of a deal struck by Styriche, the infinite fool. After eons of calculation, I will soon deliver them from the wretched pit. Would that I could save them all at once. But my needs require that I first deliver the bridgehead. Only then will the Gray Host's return be assured. They are my body, my strength. The limbs and organs of my strategy to not only set my siblings free, but deliver unto them their just reward.

...

I will not abide any further threats to our goal. My family will be delivered from their torment, and not even Molag Bal himself can stop me.

That could make for an interesting villain, but none of it is addressed or actually spelled out in the quests. It's just a side note.

As for interesting new lore, did you know that Greymoor castle already existed when the Dwemer built in Blackreach? I learned that from a loading screen, lol.

Damn that's crazy, hard to believe that there was more story and character development for the main antagonist in a side note than the entire main story of Greymoor lol. When I played through the quest line I forgot the main antagonists name several minutes after the beating the main quest. Abysmal story telling.

Galwylin

Faulgor wrote: »

There are actually nuggets that paint our main villain, Rada al-Saran, as an interesting character. He seems mainly concerned about the well-being of his fallen comrades who are being tortured in Coldharbour. Gunning for some kind of domination doesn't appear to be on his immediate agenda, the harrowstorms are just a means to an end.

I really liked Rada al-Saran but I think they've done a disservice as this was an existing character within ESO lore (maybe the previous games but not well verse in those). There should have been a more solid through line of this character from Bangkorai which would have been a little nugget for those who played through that zone that maybe this tied into the identity of the Ashen Lord. Maybe causing players to check their codex/library (which isn't a bad thing, you know). Then we get the motivation about mid ways through the chapter that ends on a more foreboding note that just destroying Solitude is only the tip of what's to come. But the whole chapter really seemed to have left him as this side note character and the important thing is the "big" reveal about a lackluster character in Solitude which we see miles away. Made me feel this isn't really that interesting as I thought coming in. And so what's upcoming doesn't have the power it could have had.

I thought the opening trailer of this whole idea this year was really pointing to something much more serious and deadly. But running around trying to figure out how to survive a storm which our characters already can do (I did several before I got to that point in the story) just seemed a waste. In fact, if you are going to make that a big step in this journey maybe deal with why our characters could survive being in one because it kills this idea of the danger when we don't need potions and no one seems to realize it. The ideas here and the things they have pulled in aren't bad. Its just not well packaged. Watching that first trailer I wanted to met who's opening eyes belong to in the last shot. Not some crazy king and his kid. He seems to have been just a cameo here and that alone really downgraded this chapter for me.

FrancisCrawford

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, all of Elsweyr is pretty much Abner Tharn making up for his biggest mistake.

There's considerable competition for that title.

Faulgor

Galwylin wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

There are actually nuggets that paint our main villain, Rada al-Saran, as an interesting character. He seems mainly concerned about the well-being of his fallen comrades who are being tortured in Coldharbour. Gunning for some kind of domination doesn't appear to be on his immediate agenda, the harrowstorms are just a means to an end.

I really liked Rada al-Saran but I think they've done a disservice as this was an existing character within ESO lore (maybe the previous games but not well verse in those). There should have been a more solid through line of this character from Bangkorai which would have been a little nugget for those who played through that zone that maybe this tied into the identity of the Ashen Lord. Maybe causing players to check their codex/library (which isn't a bad thing, you know). Then we get the motivation about mid ways through the chapter that ends on a more foreboding note that just destroying Solitude is only the tip of what's to come. But the whole chapter really seemed to have left him as this side note character and the important thing is the "big" reveal about a lackluster character in Solitude which we see miles away. Made me feel this isn't really that interesting as I thought coming in. And so what's upcoming doesn't have the power it could have had.

I thought the opening trailer of this whole idea this year was really pointing to something much more serious and deadly. But running around trying to figure out how to survive a storm which our characters already can do (I did several before I got to that point in the story) just seemed a waste. In fact, if you are going to make that a big step in this journey maybe deal with why our characters could survive being in one because it kills this idea of the danger when we don't need potions and no one seems to realize it. The ideas here and the things they have pulled in aren't bad. Its just not well packaged. Watching that first trailer I wanted to met who's opening eyes belong to in the last shot. Not some crazy king and his kid. He seems to have been just a cameo here and that alone really downgraded this chapter for me.

That's a really good point I hadn't considered before. Not really are we more knowledgable (about the villains and the threat) than the characters, we are also more capable to deal with it. The quest almost slows us down instead of pushing us along.
I was really confused why the quest demanded this or that investigation to convince the high king of the urgency of the matter when I could obviously just kill everything myself and clean Skyrim up that way, even walk into whats-his-place and smash the villain directly in the face.

IMO that might have made a more interesting quest structure, considering we can waltz into Blackreach/Greymoor right out of the tutorial anyway. They could have gone for a TES3 situation where we can meet the villain right away and take him on at any time when we feel ready. That would at least smooth out the narrative inconsistencies from the fact our character is virtually an unstoppable force in Tamriel.

On a side note, in 6 years of posting on this forum I don't think I've had a more agreed-with thread. Which strikes me as really peculiar for something as subjective as writing quality. Maybe people are on to something with their critique, and ZOS would be well advised to listen.