So far, Dark Heart of Skyrim told the same story FOUR times.

Faulgor

Recently I gave in and deleted an old character to play the new Greymoor tutorial, and I was kind of surprised in several ways.
For one, it shows the main antagonist and mentions the Gray Host - things that are played as reveals in the main story are actually spelled out from the very start. Curious.
And second, it tells the same story as Harrowstorm, the Prologue Quest and Greymoor itself.

Harrowstorm: Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! I wonder what they are planning?

Prologue. Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! I wonder what they are planning?

Tutorial: Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! I wonder what they are planning?

Greymoor: Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! I wonder what they are planning?

Every instance of this year-long story has hit the very same beats, and it doesn't seem to go anywhere. Granted, there are some vaguely unique events in every quest, such as the assassination attempt on Jorunn or the reveal of Svargrim's identity, but ultimately after Greymoor, we are where we started months ago. It is very peculiar that the whole story so far revolves around investigation, yet doesn't turn up much that isn't spelled out in the tutorial or even in the promotional material.

Consider the Year of the Dragon instead.

Wrathstone: Collect both pieces of the Wrathstone.

Prologue: Open the Halls of the Colossus with Abnur Tharn. Oh no, you released dragons!

Tutorial: Elsweyr is getting attacked by dragons!

Elsweyr: Weaken the alliance of dragons, Imperials and necromancers, prevent Kaalgrontiid's apotheosis and help the rightful queen to her throne.

I'm not saying it's Shakespeare, but at least the story moves along.

For Dark Heart of Skyrim, everything that happened after Harrowstorm could have probably been handled in the prologue quest. "Oh no, they are planning to revive the Gray Host! Come on, let's stop them.", and then have a proper chapter story after that. Instead we have this narrative water treading, and it's especially peculiar because they have this big mystery of Blackreach but don't do anything with it, it's treated entirely nonchalantly. But that might be a different topic.

What I'm saying is, what the oblivion.
You make it very hard to look forward to this year's conclusion when there's nothing to conclude, ZOS.

Mortiis13

I'm totally disappointed with zos way of chapter and dlc Roadmap.
It seems like they have a whole addon but split into 4 parts to sell it 4 times over the year.
Compared to what you get in Wow or FF for a whole addon, eso simply lackluster. Those have more story content in a zone then esos whole chapter.
And that is not bashing its simply fact. [snip]
After a week (2 to 4 hours per evening, with chatting and pledges) im done with the whole chapter, beside the pointless grind for some useless archivments, which is also always the same in a different dress.

Only the antiquities system is new, but whoever thought this is a fun mechanic...

Pls zos take your time and release something unique and don't always go scheme 1 for every f... Addon u create, where is your creativity, your proud?
Elder scrolls lore is so rich full and have so much diversity and freedom, do something with it, ***.

Sincerely
A former paying costumer.

[Edited to remove Discussion of Moderator Action]

MasterSpatula

It certainly feels like we spend so much time treading ground we've already trod and learning things we already know that, by the time we reach the end of Greymoor, We feel like we're barely in Act 2 of the actual story.

Like, there needs to be a metric crapton of story in the DLC for this to feel like an actual story and not a vignette.

Nemesis7884

yeah story and pacing and writing are in need of some upgrade...while the environment and art design department seem to step up their game every chapter, story(s) and writing unfortunately go into the other direction...

I understand its hard to design stories that need to prevail for every player and any world state but in greymoor often it felt the story and side stories really only served as a means to put the environment into scene...

certainly no standout characters or moments unfortunately.

bluebird

Yeah... the stories are getting weaker. This is exactly what I was worried of, and made a thread about here on the forums - that this whole 'year-long' gimmick would result in a lower quality of content, and I'm sad to say that the quality and quantity of their content since Summerset has decreased.

Like your example. I assume in an attempt to make sure that people who join for Greymoor only know what's going on, everything was dragged out and explained on a toddler's level. But since they are telling a consecutive 'year-long' story people who did play the 'prequels' were actually way ahead of the Greymoor NPCs to the point where I just wanted to shake Fenn/Lyris and yell at them to catch up already...

And then, the great mystery... more like a sub-par scooby-doo episode. They shouldn't have made the crux of this great 'investigation and family drama' plotline a mystery that every player already knew. The Gray Host. That's like making Elsweyr some big mystery 'Oh no what creature could possibly set the land on fire??' Dragons obviously. It was plastered all over the promotions, the trailers, the ingame intro, and the prequel questlines. Same with Rada al Saran and the Gray Host.

To top it all off, the mystery is completely irrelevant to the story. The husks? The fact that it's the Gray Host? Coven magic? Protective charms with Arkay's blessing? All completely irrelevant. We do not shield the people from the magic, we do not use the alchemist dude's knowledge, we just kill the bad guy whose death stops the whole thing (very conveniently). The whole magical mumbo-jumbo and breadcrumb finding that 3/4s of Greymoor was about, had no impact on the story.

And finally, the whole plot involvement of Rada al Saran could have been cut entirely. He just shows up, does nothing, then disappears like 'Ha, I'm this great evil mastermind and I... [Error: Plot not found, insert Q3 and Q4 DLCs for a semblance of character and story cohesion, please, we need your moneyz]' The whole 'oh no Kalgrontiid escaped from the moon realm after all' ending was shoehorned into Elsweyr already and had no effect on Dragonhold itself other than paywalling story content in the post-Elsweyr-post-DH multi-DLC-locked ending. The same with Rada's Team Rocket-style disappearing act.

This turned into a wall of criticism didn't it? Sorry, in my head it sounded like a reasonable step-by-step commentary on the 'amazing' story of Graymoor... Ah well, I'm sure it had it coming. And tl;dr yes, I agree with your post.

Ghanima_Atreides

bluebird wrote: »

To top it all off, the mystery is completely irrelevant to the story. The husks? The fact that it's the Gray Host? Coven magic? Protective charms with Arkay's blessing? All completely irrelevant. We do not shield the people from the magic, we do not use the alchemist dude's knowledge, we just kill the bad guy whose death stops the whole thing (very conveniently). The whole magical mumbo-jumbo and breadcrumb finding that 3/4s of Greymoor was about, had no impact on the story.

I agree with everything you wrote, but this especially annoyed me. Over half the quest felt like investigative filler (go here - look up some clues - then meet Lyris/Fenn/Svana over there and do the same - oh and btw this is just to drag the story out and make it look like more content than it really is)

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter. It's made abundantly clear from the beginning that Reachmen are involved, then I get to Dragonbridge (I think?) and, like an idiot, I am forced to ask: "Who are the Reachmen?" 🤪

gatekeeper13

To be honest, although I found ESO storytelling dull and uninspired, I enjoyed the Year of the Dragon, especially Dragonhold's story.

Haven't played Greymoor yet.

colossalvoids

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter. It's made abundantly clear from the beginning that Reachmen are involved, then I get to Dragonbridge (I think?) and, like an idiot, I am forced to ask: "Who are the Reachmen?" 🤪

Probably most annoying part right after bad writing itself (they probably feel like scooby doo level stories are fine with us so it's a rip) as at least this might be addressed, like damn give us a chance to have a dialog in the very beginning of every dlc as a check if we're well aware of lore stuff and can opt out from being treated like completely new players to the universe. Yeah, let our heroes of tamriel hear about evil reach once more. What might animal entrails, vines and a hunt father runes under you bed mean? No clue.

Grey17

Just like water going down the drain plug, the vortex is spinning faster and faster and this first chapter of Greymoor has put the game just above the precipice for me. I've said similar things in other posts, but besides the very very good visual trip down memory lane (excellent good job art dept!) this chapter is a piece of doggy doo in so many ways.

What really brought it home this week was the news that one of our guildie's, a five year vet, the corner stone of our guild, our wise man of the mountain has quit. Given all his stuff away. Gone, won't be back. It came as shock to all of us, and I can't repeat what he said on Discord here cause I will be censored for "bashing" , but lets just say he isn't just quitting for quitting sake and leave it at that. He has had enough, and I'm sure he isn't alone. I personally could write an epistle on what I feel is wrong these days with ESO, but I'll just pick one one area which has got on my goat....Quest writing.

Quest writing this chapter has been extremely poor. For me this is the most visible poor part of a extremely disjointed and fractured expansion and one area of the game for me that has been continuously spiraling downward since Morrowind. I personally felt no immersion whatsoever in the main quest line. Previously I have always read the full quest line on my first run though so I get into the whole atmosphere of the story. In the end I was clicking, "next", "next" next" and not reading the text, something I have never done before. Really a Princess, again? This was the best option story line you guys could come up with? Seriously? You couldn't think of anything better than a Princess with Daddy issues? So sad.

VaranisArano

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

To top it all off, the mystery is completely irrelevant to the story. The husks? The fact that it's the Gray Host? Coven magic? Protective charms with Arkay's blessing? All completely irrelevant. We do not shield the people from the magic, we do not use the alchemist dude's knowledge, we just kill the bad guy whose death stops the whole thing (very conveniently). The whole magical mumbo-jumbo and breadcrumb finding that 3/4s of Greymoor was about, had no impact on the story.

I agree with everything you wrote, but this especially annoyed me. Over half the quest felt like investigative filler (go here - look up some clues - then meet Lyris/Fenn/Svana over there and do the same - oh and btw this is just to drag the story out and make it look like more content than it really is)

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter. It's made abundantly clear from the beginning that Reachmen are involved, then I get to Dragonbridge (I think?) and, like an idiot, I am forced to ask: "Who are the Reachmen?" 🤪

Oh, ZOS and their habit of writing dialogue for brand new players...
In Morrowind, my Dunmer who's already championed Almalexia: "What's a Tribunal?"



This year's plotline of "the reachmen are up to no good" would be less egregious as a "mystery" if that weren't also the plotline of Bloodroot Forge and the Rift, and present in Orsinium.

That's the sort of narrative choice that makes it very clear that ZOS was writing this for brand new players, as opposed to players who have played the other content the game has to offer.

I'm hoping we get a little more depth to them in Q4, because right now it feels like ZOS is using them as their generic evil faction.

Mitrenga

Storytelling is in decline, just as the game's overall quality. However, there is no competitor in the market so, ESO still gets the new players, and existing players are too much invested. Don't get me wrong, I love this game when I can play through the constant lag and input delays, but you can not deny the decline in general quality compared to vanilla ESO.

Kadoin

Come on, you know you guys liked it! Stop messing around!

It's the best right? Right...? RIGHT!?

Galwylin

I found the chapter completely disappointing. And I sort of suspected it so wasn't too bummed out. I've been saying for some time except for the visuals these chapters have nothing to offer that's interesting. And it seems Solitude is much more empty this early than previous chapters. Granted everyone might be out playing with antiquities. But I thought just doing harrowstorms seemed to have a noticeable drop off in less than a week.

To think there's two new dungeons for the next six months before we even get more story content that even makes this journey worthwhile worries me. If you can't catch and keep players with Skyrim (though maybe that's finally burned out its been marketed and resold so many times) then what do you have. Just get a writing team and craft a story if your intention is to craft a year long story because dungeons, surprisingly, don't actually provide the best method of moving it along. I thought this year start was handled much much better in the prologue quest.

A disappointment but not surprising. And for gosh sakes figure out how to connect some borders in this game. I was also pretty disappointed the size seemed smaller yet again for this chapter. There's a main city, a destroyed west town, a small southern town and the patch of winter in the north. That's it. Then Blackreach is pretty much four small groups of people that had to be segmented for some reason. Where I thought they wanted it to seem dangerous at all times but instead seemed as tamed as top side. It just felt like the hype train got away from them early on and no one could figure out how to get off.

Chilly-McFreeze

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter.

Yep, measured at their story telling and quest "challenge" they must think their players are complete idiots.

SilverIce58

Something I'd like to point out is that they advertised the chapter as "the darkest storyline to date" and honestly? It was pretty tame. Sure you had some dark-ish moments like when you made it into the castle and you found that one character whose body is fused with the plant and she's complaining about being pruned like a plant, but what would've made that moment way darker would've been there being several npcs in the chamber like that. Just having the one was like "?? Ok ill just put you out of your misery and what, they'll put someone else up?" But I seemed to have missed these other supposed dark moments, they were about as dark as the rest of the game, which isn't very much.

Plus, a few of the side quests were so base and tame. There was the karthwatch quest that had the basic "guy ran away from battle, guy meets hero, guy gets inspired, guy saves girl, they move to solitude and live as happy as can be" like thats so boring. Now if the girl, as befits Nords and how I've come to expect Nords acting, was in the process of saving herself bc she actually fought back, then it'd have been slightly more interesting. Nords are supposed to be warriors, and there's so many in need of saving. West Skyrim really is weak compared to their eastern cousins.

Also that conversation between the hero and Lyris about "Fenn" and how the hero was like "his name is Fennorian not Fenn" and lyris goes "no im gonna call him fenn bc its easier" was so unnecessary and it really felt forced. Like seriously, who really gave a care that lyris nicknamed fenn? It had NOTHING to do with anything and felt shoehorned in by someone for no real good reason. Everytime she said "Fenn" i was reminded of the conversation and I cringed everytime bc with everything they're dealing with, a nickname isn't important. You could've shortened it to two parts with Hero going "Fenn?" And Lyris saying "Short for Fennorian, easier to say, and saves some time." Thats the extent that conversation had to have, not "you shouldn't call him that bc thats not his name wahh."
(I realize that this is a lot to write about considering how little the topic matters, but everytime she said Fenn, it just reminded me of the conversation, and it felt so unnecessary to put in)

Hurbster

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter.

Yep, measured at their story telling and quest "challenge" they must think their players are complete idiots.

'Whats Ravenwatch ?'.

NoodleESO

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Also that conversation between the hero and Lyris about "Fenn" and how the hero was like "his name is Fennorian not Fenn" and lyris goes "no im gonna call him fenn bc its easier" was so unnecessary and it really felt forced. Like seriously, who really gave a care that lyris nicknamed fenn? It had NOTHING to do with anything and felt shoehorned in by someone for no real good reason. Everytime she said "Fenn" i was reminded of the conversation and I cringed everytime bc with everything they're dealing with, a nickname isn't important. You could've shortened it to two parts with Hero going "Fenn?" And Lyris saying "Short for Fennorian, easier to say, and saves some time." Thats the extent that conversation had to have, not "you shouldn't call him that bc thats not his name wahh."
(I realize that this is a lot to write about considering how little the topic matters, but everytime she said Fenn, it just reminded me of the conversation, and it felt so unnecessary to put in)

You are 100% correct and Its does matter, imagine if in LOTR they just called Legolas "Legg" for the same reason Lyris uses. The story wouldn't be the same and it normalizes the whole game.

When I play an elder scrolls game I want to feel like im part of that world, Skyrim nailed it with dragon tongue and ancient text.

You could have put Lyris in a pair of overalls and given her a southern accent and it would have gave off the same vibe.

VaranisArano

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Something I'd like to point out is that they advertised the chapter as "the darkest storyline to date" and honestly? It was pretty tame. Sure you had some dark-ish moments like when you made it into the castle and you found that one character whose body is fused with the plant and she's complaining about being pruned like a plant, but what would've made that moment way darker would've been there being several npcs in the chamber like that. Just having the one was like "?? Ok ill just put you out of your misery and what, they'll put someone else up?" But I seemed to have missed these other supposed dark moments, they were about as dark as the rest of the game, which isn't very much.

Plus, a few of the side quests were so base and tame. There was the karthwatch quest that had the basic "guy ran away from battle, guy meets hero, guy gets inspired, guy saves girl, they move to solitude and live as happy as can be" like thats so boring. Now if the girl, as befits Nords and how I've come to expect Nords acting, was in the process of saving herself bc she actually fought back, then it'd have been slightly more interesting. Nords are supposed to be warriors, and there's so many in need of saving. West Skyrim really is weak compared to their eastern cousins.

Also that conversation between the hero and Lyris about "Fenn" and how the hero was like "his name is Fennorian not Fenn" and lyris goes "no im gonna call him fenn bc its easier" was so unnecessary and it really felt forced. Like seriously, who really gave a care that lyris nicknamed fenn? It had NOTHING to do with anything and felt shoehorned in by someone for no real good reason. Everytime she said "Fenn" i was reminded of the conversation and I cringed everytime bc with everything they're dealing with, a nickname isn't important. You could've shortened it to two parts with Hero going "Fenn?" And Lyris saying "Short for Fennorian, easier to say, and saves some time." Thats the extent that conversation had to have, not "you shouldn't call him that bc thats not his name wahh."
(I realize that this is a lot to write about considering how little the topic matters, but everytime she said Fenn, it just reminded me of the conversation, and it felt so unnecessary to put in)

It would make more sense as characterization, such as if it's Fennorian saying "That's not my name," and then Lyris is like "Whatever, Fenn, or would you prefer I call you "leech"?" like she does when they first meet.

Sinolai

and the side quests in each location tells the story of main quest from that location.

TheShadowScout

Faulgor wrote: »

And second, it tells the same story as Harrowstorm, the Prologue Quest and Greymoor itself...

Well, you see... that "Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good!" kinda IS the whole chapter theme. So, duh, they will have it all over the story.
Me, I see it more like...

Harrowstorm: Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! They are doing some magical mayhem with those relics!

Prologue. Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! They have it in for king Jorunn and move through blackreach!

Tutorial: Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! How'd that new character get into this mess?

Greymoor: Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! Why isn't king Svargrim doing anything to stop them?? Oh... OH!

And I am pretty sure at the end of the year, we will have it like:
"Reachmen witches and vampires are up to no good! Let's finally put an end to this ashen lord and his gray host!"

So, I really don't see the issue. Yeah, Elsweyr had some revelations... if one did not notice the whole chapter had been hailed as the "Year of the Dragon" from the start I guess. And yes, the chapter introduced an entirely new side story when we went to elsweyr eager to hunt dragons... and also found imperial entabglements and an dastardly necromancer, and a all too familiar dead knight to deal with...
Kinda like when we went to greymoor we found an worse then useless king, a lot od nords in varying flavors of helpfulness, and more caves with their very own stories, including a revelation about the vampires behind the whole mess, that its not one united clan, but kinda an alliance between two houses, the sort of insane greymoor blood-alchemist and the ashen lord looking to revive the grey host from legend... and there is a third new ally of theirs thrown into the mix that needs stopping before they bring about calamity. With the ashen lord leaving before the final fight, to be done in in the next DLC...

Personally, I don't really see the same story all over, just the same theme and a story that unfoolds. Perhaps not with -quite- as well done revelations as in elsweyr, but... decent enough I daresay.

bluebird wrote: »

Like your example. I assume in an attempt to make sure that people who join for Greymoor only know what's going on, everything was dragged out and explained on a toddler's level. But since they are telling a consecutive 'year-long' story people who did play the 'prequels' were actually way ahead of the Greymoor NPCs to the point where I just wanted to shake Fenn/Lyris and yell at them to catch up already...

That is a very likely assumption. And a very understandable feeling... I had the same, once or twice.
Yeah, this "written for the newbies starting with THIOS chapter" is a pain for all who played through the game in the "proper" order. But... that's company policy, to allow exactly this "start at the newest" thing... so new players don't have to despair playing through tons of content to get to the story their friends who told them about the game are currently playing I guess?
We just will have to deal with it. And maybe skip those dialouge options, tho I really wish they had done the effort to makew the dialouge different depending on what other questlines a character had finished... do the EP or DC stories, need not ask about reachmen. Do Rivenspire, need not ask about Ravenwatch, instead greet the guy with "Ah, how's ole Adusa?" etc.

Nareya726

Hurbster wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

And, yeah, the toddler-level intelligence displayed by our characters in this chapter.

Yep, measured at their story telling and quest "challenge" they must think their players are complete idiots.

'Whats Ravenwatch ?'.

This. In addition to the story feeling rather uninspired I was also extremely disappointed in the dialogue and characters. They hyped up the members of house Ravenwatch returning, yet it barely makes a difference if you played Rivenspire or not prior to Greymoor. I would've loved to have more dialogue options with Fenn, Gwendis, and Adusa that reflect on our previous interactions with House Ravenwatch. Even the sidequest with Kireth and Raynor had more "history" dialoge! It also would've been nice to see the members of House Ravenwatch acknowledge each other's existence. They talk about family but the way it plays out is like Gwendis and Adusa don't even know Fenn.

The fact that there was 0 recognition of my character being a werewolf was also a disappointment given the chapter's theme, especially since even Summerset acknowledged it in a minor sidequest. I haven't played through on a vampire yet but from what I've read they don't get recognition either.

I did like Fenn as a character, but that's about it, and I still wish they did more with him. Svana just felt like a Nord version of the general's daughter (I forget her name) from Southern Elsweyr. Or even a less interesting Khamira. Lyris was just straight up irritating IMO. I always found her kind of "meh" in the base game, but in this she's just straight up condescending and bossy and we just have to go along with it.

I know these are little things, but given the writing and character relationships we had in the past this chapter just felt lazy in that area.

Nestor

They should have brought in the person who wrote the Reachman story for Bangkori and had them do a proper extension or sequel to that story.

TheShadowScout

Nestor wrote: »

They should have brought in the person who wrote the Reachman story for Bangkori and had them do a proper extension or sequel to that story.

It actually would have been quite nifty if they tied the greymoor reachmen stories to their defeats in the questlines covering Bangkorai, The Rift and Wrothgar (orsinium)... alas, paths not taken I guess?

I sometimes wish they would do a little more with the expansions, just like they tied the "daedric triad" story together... but i can see how they might not want to do that as it can create issues with the "out of sequence" troubles that can arise when new players jump into the expansion first (like, jumping from tutorial right to fighting dragons in elseweyr before releasing them in the elsweyr prequel quest to the halls of colossus...)

FrancisCrawford

VaranisArano wrote: »

This year's plotline of "the reachmen are up to no good" would be less egregious as a "mystery" if that weren't also the plotline of Bloodroot Forge and the Rift, and present in Orsinium.

Isn't Angof a Reachman too?

Anyhow, quest writing in the game has always been uneven. At release, there were Rivenspire and Stros M'Kai ... but there also was Stonefalls. Wrothgar basically had a good main story, but the "Get the clans to like me" filler quests felt like they were from other games we make fun of.

Morrowind had a tedious main quest despite a somewhat interesting central character in Vivec. It also had some good side quest chains. Clockwork City has a lot of good ideas, but also a lot of running through tunnels. And the creative crow stuff didn't always work, e.g. in the sad battle death I didn't notice even the second time through.

Summerset is basically great, but the obnoxiousness of the Aldmeri gets repetitive and irritating.

Etc.

FrancisCrawford

The Elsweyr preview quest was significant? I never considered doing it past the (very early) point that Abnur harn suggested I gather flowers as a gift for somebody ...

dcam86b14_ESO

The problem is that the writing team has had to make a lengthy story and filler to last a while. Unlike with the one off and stand alone expansions of morrowind and summerset where the story ends and clues are given as to where you'll go next.

The writing dropped off after orsinium, it by far overshadows any other story since. It was the last time ZOS put forth effort and not just thought about $$

TheShadowScout

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

The Elsweyr preview quest was significant?

...where do you think the dragons actually get released in the first place???
Yeah, all of Elsweyr is pretty much Abner Tharn making up for his biggest mistake.

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

Unlike with the one off and stand alone expansions of morrowind and summerset where the story ends and clues are given as to where you'll go next...

...which it actually doesn't, since all of those, and CWC too, are kinda tied together by the "Daedric Triad" story. But yeah, each standalone on its own... but building up to things. Like a certain person who is a lost soul seeking truth in Morrowind, and shapes up to be a hefty antagonist in Summerset when she finds something in the wrong place (or with the wrong prince I guess?)... or how the whole Summerset plot is only made possible by the secrets learned during the other two?

But yes, those stories are a bit more loosely tied compared to the "year-long theme" of the latter expansio strategy. Was it better? Was it worse? Who can say... I for one prefer the new setup, as its easier to see the story there... though as I said before, I really wish they would build up on the older stuff some more. Like for example, if we learned the events around the lightless remnant and the conclusion of that story is what woke up the ashen lord guy, or if the reachmen stories in those other regions drove them into this alliance, etc. In a way, Elsweyr had this - Abner clearly made his mistake with the Halls of Colossus following his desire to restore the empire, which was the very reason he nabbed the amulet of kings at the end of the mainstory (for those who actually listen to the dialouge with Meridia in the colored rooms aftermath scene)... I like those sort of connections.
And there are a LOT yet unused story leads tzhey could make into expansions... like, the true reason behind the akaviri invasion ten years before ESO, and the need to resolve it before another happens, or the rising discontent in the covenant, between orcs getting a new king, redguards slowly splitting into factions (crowns/forebears), none of the races really trusting each other, each having grudges, etc. Or more imperial entanglements, we have seen some aspects in bangkorai, reapers march, gold coast and elsweyr, but there is still colovia, nibenay and blackwood around... and then there are the "not joined the pact" telvanni and their deeds, as well as others among the dunmer who have their own ideas about argonians and what their place "ought to be"... could be an expansion there (and wouldn't I love to see the telvanni peninsula made into an expansion, especially the city of the dead, necrom? Possibly with an "house dres" DLC covering tear and the regions around it? With an theme that takes a good hard look at the relations between those two houses and the argonians...) Or the lost city of Falinesti, that one could be worth a DLC at least, and depending where it ended up perhaps a full expansion (finding it as prolouge, smack in the middle of some daedric plane, and then using it to explore said corner of oblivion from that city as base? I could see that happening, yeah, it'd be a bit like coldharbour, but... could be made quite different too...) Or another expansion in black marsh, uncovering the truth behind the knarhaten flu (might not be something they ought to consider in 2020 I guess, but... once the current events are over and done with, perhaps...) And there also could be a "high seas" expansion dealing with islands from the topal to the abesean sea, maormer pirates and whatever the sload are up to after they failed to sink summerset... and that's merely off the top of my head... so... more then enough stories for quite a while, yes?

VaranisArano

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

This year's plotline of "the reachmen are up to no good" would be less egregious as a "mystery" if that weren't also the plotline of Bloodroot Forge and the Rift, and present in Orsinium.

Isn't Angof a Reachman too?

Anyhow, quest writing in the game has always been uneven. At release, there were Rivenspire and Stros M'Kai ... but there also was Stonefalls. Wrothgar basically had a good main story, but the "Get the clans to like me" filler quests felt like they were from other games we make fun of.

Morrowind had a tedious main quest despite a somewhat interesting central character in Vivec. It also had some good side quest chains. Clockwork City has a lot of good ideas, but also a lot of running through tunnels. And the creative crow stuff didn't always work, e.g. in the sad battle death I didn't notice even the second time through.

Summerset is basically great, but the obnoxiousness of the Aldmeri gets repetitive and irritating.

Etc.

Yep, somehow I managed to completely forget that the Reachmen are the bad guys in Glenumbra and part of Bangkorai too.

In my defense, I'm a Pact player.

Ghanima_Atreides

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Yeah, this "written for the newbies starting with THIOS chapter" is a pain for all who played through the game in the "proper" order. But... that's company policy, to allow exactly this "start at the newest" thing... so new players don't have to despair playing through tons of content to get to the story their friends who told them about the game are currently playing I guess?
We just will have to deal with it.

But it's even worse than this. Characters who started the game in Western Skyrim met Fenn during the tutorial, where he explicitly introduces himself as a member of House Ravenwatch and explains to them who they are.
But they are STILL made to later ask Gwendis "What's House Ravenwatch?" when meeting her in Blackreach. The same thing with the Reachmen. The player is introduced to these two bits of lore early on but then the game forces them to act as if they weren't. Perhaps in an attempt to ensure the information stuck, or insurance in case someone skipped the tutorial, but in that case it should at least be an optional question, something you could avoid if you didn't want to RP a complete moron.

And maybe skip those dialouge options, tho I really wish they had done the effort to makew the dialouge different depending on what other questlines a character had finished... do the EP or DC stories, need not ask about reachmen. Do Rivenspire, need not ask about Ravenwatch, instead greet the guy with "Ah, how's ole Adusa?" etc.

I've only played the chapter with new characters (because I'm an altaholic like that) but you can't even mention the Ravenwatch if you've played the Rivenspire story? 😱 If that's the case, it's as bad as the player not being treated as a vampire at all except in a single line by Lyris.

kind_hero

Nareya726 wrote: »

They hyped up the members of house Ravenwatch returning, yet it barely makes a difference if you played Rivenspire or not prior to Greymoor. I would've loved to have more dialogue options with Fenn, Gwendis, and Adusa that reflect on our previous interactions with House Ravenwatch.

There are several lines of dialogue regarding Rivenspire, if you did that story. Adusa recognises you -ah the hero of Rivenspire- you have extra dialogue with Gwendis, but almost none with Fennorian.
You get a lot of extra dialogue with Nerano if you completed CWC, Summerset and Elsweyr.

But you get no lines with Jorrun (I have Tamriel Hero, and did the story for all DLCs) or his son. You get some extra dialogue with Gabrielle, two extra options if you did the main quest and the Summerset story. Rigurt also recognises you, Narsis Dren has a different dialogue, and so on. But all this is inconsistent.

To the OP

I agree with you, the story felt underwhelming. They had this huge opportunity with Skyrim, and they just went the easy route, by copy-pasting some filler plot to sell this to the Skyrim fans.

The only thing I hated about Elsweyr story quest is that part of the quest when you have to push boxes in a maze. Except that Elsweyr was OK, even though I got bored of the dragon theme after a few months. Elsweyr had some memorable characters like Abnur Tharn, Zaji, Sai... Greymoor lacks cool characters and it is full of plotholes and bugs.

The player can't figure out what Blackreach really is.... is it a legend, a well kept secret? None believes it really exists, yet people are showing up in Blackreach like it is a tourist trap. Also, everyone seems to ignore the huge Greymoor palace, and we do not get a background about this place, why it was built so large, what was its purpose?

Elsweyr had probably the best prologue. The two dungeons were perfectly tied with the prologue, you gathered the stone tablets for Tharn. Releasing the dragons was so epic, you felt that Tharn is wrong and something bad would happen, you had a nice build up looking at the Kunzari's story on the walls.

TheShadowScout

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

If that's the case, it's as bad as the player not being treated as a vampire at all except in a single line by Lyris.

Sadly... that is oftentimes the case. Seeing how I just played through the glenumbra werewold stories witzh my part-time furry alt... you'd think there'd be some mention there, huh? But nooo... I go expose my comrades-in-fur in Ashcroft, rub shoulders with the werewolf hunter, do all the hero things... and none of the werewolves go like "You smell like one of us, forget the humans, join our side and lets feast!". And I kinda doubt my vampy alt will find many differences from my mortal assassin girl when she gets to play the greymoor storyline... after all, there was no mentionings of her vampy nature back when she went with the frigging vampire hunters in grahtwood either, was there now?

Small details such as these... eeehhh.

It would have made for a MUCH better game if they had done things to take note of all the character differences. Make questlines diverge, make the quests work -different- depending on character race, class, gender, guild memberships, mortal or vampyness/werewolvness issues...
Make some quests offer shortcuts for some characters, make other quests as extra sidequesting for the same reason!

• Like a dunmer character in Shadowfen should be getting tons of extra "build trust" quests as the argonians view them with suspiscion due to history... while an argonian character should get "greetings hist-brother/sister" shortcuts... same in other constellations of course, altmer characters in Auridion or Summerset ought to get some davantages from their fellow (shall we say... race-conscious?) high (nosed) elves... while "lesser races" should get extra scutwork dumped on them... yet in other regions it might be reversed, khajiiti vendors in Elsweyr ought to change any altmer character extra while giving fellow catpeople sweet deals...
• Or classes, would it not make sense if some classes were treated differently? If for example a temlar might on occasion get sent on a different side-mission then a nightblade or necromancer? Templar gets sent to heal the wounded, necromancer to clear the corpses, nightblade to stab some baddie in the back or whatever... That a sorceror might have an option to infiltrate the deadric cult that other classes just could not pull off, or that a warden might get a shortcut in some nature-themed quests due to their nature-boy/girl background?
• Or gender, I could totally see some stereotypes getting worked there, like female characters getting more "prove your combat prowess or get back in the kitchen" encounters (which would make it soooo satisfying to wipe the floor with those NPCs) that male characters might pass through with a puff of testosterone, while in other instances female characters get extra rewards from blushing novice guards for saving them when the same feat done by a male character would just be taken as a matter of fact and only acknowledged by a bro-nod...
• Or guilds, I -adored- the option in the initial housing quest to use the "dark brotherhood stare" to get a reluctant NPC to comply, and then have them fall all over themselves to give your character all the info jkust to make them look at that at someone else... I wish we could have more of the sort (of course, to really make it meaningful, there would also need to be more guilds, and some "either-or" mechanic in picking them).
• And yes, finally, those characters who choose to forego mortal life and turn into bloodsucking fiends or part-time furries... ought to see that choice noticed and remarked upon by various NPCs. Possibly even get options other characters could never pull off, like... vampire PCs might be able to pull off a "disguise yourself as greymoor vampire" and walk through the castle bypassing most fights... and there definitely ought to be some extra interactions between any vampire PC and the ravenwatch NPCs in that story...

And so on.
Sadly... since all that sort of thing would increase their workload quite a bit... its not too likely to happen I fear.

Makes me wish someday the whole game could be redone on the next generation of computer systems, with ALL those ideas and more worked in! Well, who knows, in a couple decades... it might even happen. Not that that thought helps the wishes I have for such variations that would make repeated playthroughs all the more enjoyable now...