Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars II, direction of development

Taloros

Fellow players,

after playing ESO for several years, I've spent some time in GW2 during the last weeks. I'd like to make some comparisons to highlight the differences between the two games so as to maybe highlight some problems and possibilities for improvement for ESO. Maybe we can have a productive discussion - but please, keep it civil. No sheer bashing of either game or game community.

I try to be fair, but claim neither to do a complete comparison or be all-knowing. Please, add your thoughts and insights below.

Loading times
Game start and loading screens are much, much faster in GW2. The time from clicking the desktop icon to seeing the game world:
ESO: 109 seconds
GW2: 38 seconds
The difference is even greater for switching characters. As mundane as it sounds, I like clicking the GW2 icon much more, as I'll get to have some action within a minute.

Performance
- I can't make a complete comparison here, as I haven't played any PvP in GW2, where the performance problems in ESO seem to matter most.
- In open world PvE events, performance in GW2 drops notably, BUT that is with >50 people in one spot, and so far hasn't reached unplayable levels. As far as I can tell so far, GW2 seems to fare better.

Characters, classes, balancing
- GW2: Your character's abilities are determined by class and equipped weapons. If you have class A and weapon X, you have one pre-defined set of skills you cannot change. Another set of skills can be changed, the so-called secondary skills. For some classes (e. g. warrior), it's only a selection of different buffs (e. g. more crit or more armor). For others (e. g. Necromancer), you can choose between pets, attack skills and buffs. In total, you have around 20 skills, again depending on class. The classes vary a lot in mechanics, power, ease of play and so on.
- ESO: Your character's abilities are determined by class, equipped weapon, experience progress and available skill lines (including werwolf and vampire). You can pick and choose what skills you can use, with a limit of 12 skills. Classes are not as influential to your character. A stamina sorcerer and a stamina nightblade, for example, might play pretty much the same when using the same set of weapons and skill lines. Yes, the min-maxers will now want to interject that stamsorc deals 17.3% more damage in melee, while the nightblade has a completely op/useless stealth skill, but... seriously, they play pretty much the same from a casual point of view.
- Which is better? Depends on what you like. I prefer ESO in that regard. But one has to mention that the high degree of customization makes balancing a nightmare. The recent random patching hasn't helped ESO, but a friend of mine tells me that balancing in GW2 has similar problems. The vastly different mechanics of GW2 classes probably lead to problems of a similar scale. I think ESO should be easier to balance in the end, but they're doing a questionable job with that.

Graphics
- Both games look okayish, but sadly, not much better.
- ESO puts the player in more of a first-person perspective in my opinion, while GW2 play very much like a isometric RPG: You're hovering far, far above your character and see him or her as a detached entity, while ESO does a better job to make you identify with the little guy/gal on screen.
- ESO wins, but GW2 isn't bad, either.

World building, flair, art style
- The art styles differ quite dramatically. Both claim to be fantasy with a bend of steam punk. But while Dwarven technology in ESO is quite rare and often non-functioning, the GW2 world has guns, rifles, helicopters, laser artillery, zeppelins, mortars, force field generators and similar advances on every corner. What one likes better is a matter of opinion. I prefer ESO's more traditional, but in my opinion also more consistent world building - in fact, very much so.
- GW2 has a lot - really A LOT - of immersion breaking fashion articles. You can dress your character in a T-Shirt, (short) shorts and sunglasses, give her two pistols and call her Lara Croft. In ESO, some players dress their characters like bizarre clowns, but a bizarre clown might live in a world like ESO. Big win for ESO here.
- Both ESO and GW2 have some room to customize your character, but I think both are pretty limited when compared to Skyrim, for example. Human GW2's characters - with very, very few exceptions - looks like 18 year old supermodels, ESO allows to create adult - as in grown-up, not as in "adult" - characters.
- While ESO is a pretty prudish, some GW2's characters might have stepped out of fetish *** website. I don't play MMOs to, uhm, give much attention to something like that, but it goes so far as to a bit irritating in GW2 in my humble opinion. On the other hand, the turtleneck-hijab-factor in ESO is a bit overdone, too. It's a fantasy world, not the Handmaid's Tale's Gilead. There's little variety in clothes in ESO, probably due to engine limitations, but possibly also due to lack of courage, creativity or room for either in ESO's art department. Win for ESO, but still big opportunity for improvement for ZOS.

Immersion, storytelling
- The stories in GW2 are... well, I'd like to offer some constructive criticism, but I cannot remember enough of any story for that. It's just bad.
- In ESO, the storytelling is often-times bland, uncreative and heavily rail-roaded. The story in Elsweyr had (almost) everything ridiculed by writers and storytellers, especially the multitude of deus ex machina moments. We need the character to go to A / know B / find C? Just have Cadwell pop in and hand-waive that into existence.
- ESO wins here, in my opinion, but still has room for improvement. Stories cost little but add a lot. Maybe pay less to John Cleese for Cadwell voice acting and more to a writer to avoid having to need all that Cadwell voice acting.
Just for clarification: I'm a big fan of John Cleese. But I'm also a big fan of chili. Both of them are applied best in measured doses.

Cost, subscription, ingame cash shop
- ESO is, in my opinion, a thinly veiled subscription game. It's very, very annoying to play without an active sub due to the limited bag space and inventory spam especially due to crafting materials. F2P in ESO is more of a trial.
- GW2 is more of a F2P. The game does more to nudge you into spending money, e. g. costly consumables.
- Both sell random loot boxes for cash.
- ESO wins here for me, but only in being less bad. Random loot boxes are a no-go for me, personally, and the prices for "micro" transactions are totally overblown in both games. In my opinion, if one wants to sell new content such as a new costume, the price should reflect the development cost, not subsidize other costs. And I cannot believe that designing a a new costume requires thousands of people to pay 10 €/$ each.
- Win for GW2. I can return here without paying money. ESO is pretty much unplayable for me without spending money to renew the subscription. GW's model is better for the customer and, in my opinion, better for the company.
But a third option would be even better: ESO should get rid of the inventory shenanigans and make the sub buy you the expansions, extra dungeons and so on at a reduced price, but permanently, like a season pass. Keep the crowns, add a free exclusive costume each month instead of putting them in random loot boxes, and it's still a good deal. If somebody wants my money, I'm okay with that, as long as it's transparent, fairly priced and done in a non-annoying way. Probably true for most people.

Content
- GW2 has "hearts" ( a kind of quest substitute where you have kill X / get Y / do Z to get an XP reward, but don't need to talk to NPCs beforehand), open world events, 5-person-dungeons, raids and PvP.
- ESO has quests, open world events (e. g. anchors, dragons, world bosses), 4-person-dungeons, 12-person-trials and PvP.
- GW2's dungeon's are few, underplayed and apparently not a focus of the development team or the player base. In ESO, however, they're a fun, active component, unless the dungeon finder is broken (again). Clear win for ESO.
- GW2's world events, however, competely blow ESO out of the water. ESO world bosses are boring, unrewarding affairs - dead content, even more so than GW2's dungeons. In GW2, players descent like a swarm of locusts on any world boss that shows his/her ugly head, as they're fun and rewarding. Non-boss open world events such as base defense or bounty hunts are competely absent in ESO.
- GW2 wins for more casual gaming, ESO for more serious gameplay in my opinion. Copying the GW2 event system would a huge win for ESO.

Trading
- GW2 has an easy-to-use, globally accessible trading house.
- ESO has a convoluted mess of guild traders that only becomes usable with Add-Ons and third party websites such as Tamriel Trade Centre.
- Clear win for GW2. For ESO, just reform the system.

Community
- From the little time I spent in GW2 in comparison, the community seems to be a bit more helpful to each other.
- That may come from making cooperation rewarding in GW2 mechanically: Killing monsters together gives the same XP to everybody, so all help is appreciated. Raising a dead player gives XP in GW2 and costs a soul shard in ESO. But even if cooperation is encouraged through rewards, the result is cooperation in GW2, and oftentimes competition in ESO.
- Slight advantage to GW2 so far. ESO could and should adopt the "nudging to goodness", which would only take a very few mechanical changes, such as changing the XP gain formula.

In total...
- Although I think ESO is a better game, at least for my taste, in many points, I, personally, still don't feel much reason to log into ESO. Why?
- The Bosmer stealth nerf. Yes, this is a very long-winded "give my little Bosmer back her stealth bonus" thread. At least in part. The broader issue is, in my view, an apparently either short-sighted or aimless direction of development. The changes in racials were, at least in part, pretty bizarre. Why does my Altmer wizard get a bonus stamina gain now? Why are there hordes of Imperial wizards in the game world, but little reason to play an Imperial wizard yourself? Why buff Caltrops into high heavens, then nerf it into oblivion in back-to-back patches?
- At least for the casual player, there's little endgame content in ESO in my opinion. XP looses meaning once you've maxed your champion points. Gold is useless. Housing has little to no function and doesn't feel rewarding, as there's hardly anything to do in your oh-so-awesome home base.
- The things that need to be addressed are, in my opinion, loading screens, undoing ca. last year's unbalancing changes and adding more casual content such as rewarding quests or world events.

So, fellow players, what's your opinion?

VaranisArano

I think ESO needs to fix it own issues to strengthen its distinctive brand, particularly performance.

I'm also not convinced that "Devs, you should emulate/copy this other MMO" is particularly helpful or likely to happen beyond being a list of personal preferences. Generally, outside of certain genre norms, games want to be distinct from one another.

notyuu

My opinion of having tried both of them is that I simply do not enjoy the combat in GW 2 and thus find the game about as fun as a sandpaper jockstrap

Lannharr

GW2 is a very old game. I enjoyed the jumping puzzles though, quitted long time ago.

eKsDee

Lannharr wrote: »

GW2 is a very old game. I enjoyed the jumping puzzles though, quitted long time ago.

Only about a year and a half younger than ESO, so in MMO years, it's not that old, especially not in comparison to ESO.

TineaCruris

Depending on how New World plays, ESO could be in real trouble when it releases. ....if they don't fix the performance issues in ESO pretty quick here. New World pre-releases in about a month now, officially August 25th, so Zenimax really should be looking at that as their timeline to really get it together performance wise. ...else the migration could be epic.

Eifleber

additionally ...

Looks
* In ESO "best" gear is almost always comes from boss drops and it looks how you find it. But in almost all cases that looks horrible, especially with the monster set shoulders that are often impossible to tune in with the rest of the set.
If you want to change your look ESO has it outfit system where you have to "unlock" looks with style sheets. There is only one slot for setting up looks though. Next to that there's costumes.
Dyeing your gear in 90% of the cases results in it looking like shiny plastic.

* In GW2 you can simply mix the stats of armour piece 1 with the looks of armour piece 2. You can only mix heavy armour with the looks of another heavy armour piece so there's no robes looking like plate armour or visa versa.
As far as i remember it's easy to get best stats and the game doesn't have 400 different sets.
GW2 also has costumes afair (or is that only in GW?)
Dyeing your gear usually works pretty well.
=

Deconstructing
GW2 has deconstruction kits that let you deconstruct stuff on the spot so you can keep your inventory clean.
GW2 wins here hands down.

=

FrancisCrawford

I played GW2 in its early days. I switched to ESO and didn't look back.

GW2 had cartoonish art, little voice acting, etc. And the world felt generally smaller. Tamriel for me is way ahead of whatever the GW2 world is called.

The average quality of the storytelling ESO isn't much, of course. But if you pick the hundred best quests or your 25 favorite NPCs or whatever, there's a lot there in the aggregate. GW2? Not so much. (And by the way, the champion for "I can't believe they actually did that" plot twists in MMOs for me is still the original chapter of the original Guild Wars.)

And the combat choices in GW2 are very limiting, which made me sad, because the gold standard for build variety in my MMO experience is unquestionably the original Guild Wars. (Perhaps not coincidentally, Guild Wars predated the era of elaborate skill animations.)

_adhyffbjjjf12

i've got about 8k hours in GW2 and maybe 1k in ESO, just returned. in my opinion ESO would be the best mmorpg BY FAR but is held back by the badly designed engine and core performance issues.

GW2

Looks good due to the artistic style
Game play is smooth and generally bug free. fps is hampered by their engine that is tied to Direct 9
WVW and PVP performance is solid
Balancing is slow and hit or miss
Writing is awful, feels juvenile
Content is rich

ESO

Looks better that GW2, feels more solid, better first perspective
Game play performance is smooth in open world, better than GW2
Writing and world building is best in market imo
slightly more to do, looking at you housing and antiques etc

ESO is however without doubt the buggiest car crash of an AAA game I have played since the 70's and was clearly naively built on an engine not designed for a MMORPG.

In saying that, I've returned to ESO and enjoying it because I avoid trials and pvp and therefore a lot of the performance issues and I have a years worth of open world content to catch up on at least and I love the ESO universe. Not sure if i will stay when new GW2 expansion comes next year.

Eifleber

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

GW2 has cartoonish art, little voice acting, etc. And the world felt generally smaller.

The voice acting and lip sync in ESO is superb!!! No game can compare what that is concerned.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

And the combat choices in GW2 are very limiting, which made me sad, because the gold standard for build variety in my MMO experience is unquestionably the original Guild Wars. (Perhaps not coincidentally, Guild Wars predated the era of elaborate skill animations.(

Yeah GW1 really was fantastic in a lot of ways (and lacked in a lot of other ways).
So many builds and tactics to try out, it really was a deckbuilder game ..

What that is concerned it has never been surpassed by any other game and I was deeply disappointed when GW2 dumbed the whole thing down to just fixed weapon skills and a few support skills with long cooldowns. Gameplay wise GW2 was GW1's successor just in name. I also missed the mesmer anti-class which was my favourite in GW1. Also a bit disappointed that ESO doesn' t really have effective PvE crowd control classes or builds.

Sugaroverdose

Taloros wrote: »

Trading
- GW2 has an easy-to-use, globally accessible trading house.
- ESO has a convoluted mess of guild traders that only becomes usable with Add-Ons and third party websites such as Tamriel Trade Centre.
- Clear win for GW2. For ESO, just reform the system.

So, fellow players, what's your opinion?

On PC trade system is bad only because of trading addons which handle global prices(it's actually a BAD thing), at the same time on consoles people can make money by reselling stuff which they found for cheap and yeah, it's actually a gameplay mechanics which is broken by good intentions of add-on authors. So not a win for GW2, global auction is just lazy way to handle trading

Eifleber

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

global auction is just lazy way to handle trading

As long as ESO has no system that

1. only shows stuff that's actually for sale
2. show all stuff that's actually for sale
3. shows stuff where it is for sale

.. GW2 is the decisive winner for me.

I mean i spend hours every month jumping to points where the product either isn' t available or in some cases the trader isn' t even there anymore. This is rather annoying. Also I occasionally stumble on stuff that's not on TTC.

I love the fact that TTC exists but it's a poor substitution for what the game should offer.
It's subpar functionality.

Elsonso

Taloros wrote: »

Loading times
Game start and loading screens are much, much faster in GW2. The time from clicking the desktop icon to seeing the game world:
ESO: 109 seconds
GW2: 38 seconds

Agreed. ZOS has a significant issue with the load time between Character Select and In-Game. However, once in the game, things have improved with Greymoor.

Taloros wrote: »

Characters, classes, balancing
- GW2: Your character's abilities are determined by class and equipped weapons.
- ESO: Your character's abilities are determined by class, equipped weapon, experience progress and available skill lines

Both are limited, and this is likely a concession to the MMO mindset, since balancing a Skyrim/Fallout style open character ability model would be a mess. I never went as deeply into GW2 as I have into ESO, but for me, the bottom line between GW2 and ESO is that neither is really better in this respect.

Taloros wrote: »

Graphics
- ESO wins, but GW2 isn't bad, either.

I was never impressed enough about GW2 graphics to want to talk about it.

Taloros wrote: »

Immersion, storytelling
- The stories in GW2 are... well, I can't say they're bad, as I cannot remember a single one.
- In ESO, the storytelling is often-times bland, uncreative and heavily rail-roaded.
- ESO wins here, in my opinion, but still has room for improvement. Stories cost little but add a lot.

Greymoor story did have a predictable outcome fairly early into it, which made the last half of the story more about how the writers were going to reveal the ending than than it was about what the ending was going to be.

In general, though, I have come to expect that Elder Scrolls main stories will be fairly shallow. They are short stories, and tend to be built around action. That does not leave a lot of room for the writers, I think. I think Elder Scrolls story telling peaked with Morrowind.

Taloros wrote: »

Content
- GW2 has "hearts" ( a kind of quest substitute where you have kill X / get Y / do Z to get an XP reward, but don't need to talk to NPCs beforehand), open world events, 5-person-dungeons, raids and PvP.
- ESO has quests, open world events (e. g. anchors, dragons, world bosses), 4-person-dungeons, 12-person-trials and PvP.
- GW2's dungeon's are few, underplayed and apparently not a focus of the development team or the player base. In ESO, however, they're a fun, active component, unless the dungeon finder is broken (again). Clear win for ESO.
- GW2's world events, however, competely blow ESO out of the water. ESO world bosses are boring, unrewarding affairs - dead content, even more so than GW2's dungeons. In GW2, players descent like a swarm of locusts on any world boss that shows his/her ugly head, as they're fun and rewarding. Non-boss open world events such as base defense or bounty hunts are competely absent in ESO.
- GW2 wins for more casual gaming, ESO for more serious gameplay in my opinion. Copying the GW2 event system would a huge win for ESO.

This depends on what is meant by "casual". ESO is very much a solo-player game, and that is reflected in a lot of the older content, which can be done with 1-4 players. To me, that is casual because you can be good at ESO without having to become an expert in builds and rotations.

ESO would probably be more interesting with GW2 style events, particularly if they allowed events to cascade. This could have been done with Elsweyr and the dragons, where the dragons did more than just sit there, or flit from landing zone to landing zone if there are no players around. Dragons are supposed to be bent on world domination, and the only time they come out is to run through the McDonald's drive-thru to grab a snack.

Taloros wrote: »

Trading
- GW2 has an easy-to-use, globally accessible trading house.
- ESO has a convoluted mess of guild traders that only becomes usable with Add-Ons and third party websites such as Tamriel Trade Centre.
- Clear win for GW2. For ESO, just reform the system.

Personal preference. It is true that ZOS has an aversion to QoL things, and that the Guild Traders were pushed out unfinished and largely abandoned by ZOS after that. They are largely unusable without addons and external support.

One of the lackluster things about FRPG games is the global store. I find that game developers of fantasy games seem to falter when it comes to in-game player-to-player commerce. It always seems like they toss it in, but it equally seems like they don't really think about it. It is a bolt-on. ZOS thought about it, and actually rolled out a system that I think had some promise. Rather, they started to roll it out. I am still waiting to see if they ever plan to finish it.

That is the big issue with "big reforms" and ESO. ZOS Is a little bit like Homer Sim.... oooh! Donuts!

Taloros wrote: »

Community
- From the little time I spent in GW2 in comparison, the community seems to be a bit more helpful to each other.
- Slight advantage to GW2 so far. ESO could and should adopt the "nudging to goodness", which would only take a very few mechanical changes, such as changing the XP gain formula.

Aside from unfriendly predators that use the Activity Finder so they can get their rage on in a PUG, I think the ESO community is generally helpful in the game. Outside of the game, we do have "ESOFam", but this is a little like the popular cheerleaders from high school. I'm a nerd. I tend to keep my distance.

Taloros wrote: »

- The Bosmer stealth nerf. Yes, this is a very long-winded "give my little Bosmer back her stealth bonus" thread. At least in part. The broader issue is, in my view, an apparently either short-sighted or aimless direction of development. The changes in racials were, at least in part, pretty bizarre. Why does my Altmer wizard get a bonus stamina gain now? Why are there hordes of Imperial wizards in the game world, but little reason to play an Imperial wizard yourself?

I think that the racial adjustments were primarily a "spreadsheet indicated problem" that ZOS was fixing. This is what happens when number crunching becomes too important. This applies to ZOS and the players, both. We get seemingly random or bizarre changes that are really nothing of the sort, because someone has a spreadsheet somewhere to justify their position.

Taloros wrote: »

- At least for the casual player, there's little endgame content in ESO in my opinion. XP looses meaning once you've maxed your champion points. Gold is useless. Housing has little to no function and doesn't feel rewarding, as there's hardly anything to do in your oh-so-awesome home base.

I think that the thing about "end game content" in ESO is that the "end game players" want to do it on their terms. These terms are defined by the players much more than the game. Anyone can do that content, on those terms. For those who do not qualify, it is a matter of guidance, which the game does not, and cannot, provide. If anything, this is where the "community" fails the most. It is here that we are stuck between rigid terms for "acceptable" in the end game and newer players who would do just fine, with a little guidance, even if they were "unacceptable".

As for Housing, this is a cash cow. It is a system that was partially implemented, but has gotten significant upgrades due to the prominent position on the balance sheet. It is sadly limited, but the limit is superficially circumvented by buying more houses. Coming from a Sims background, I find ESO housing terminally disappointing.

Sugaroverdose

Eifleber wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

global auction is just lazy way to handle trading

As long as ESO has no system that

1. only shows stuff that's actually for sale
2. show all stuff that's actually for sale
3. shows stuff where it is for sale

.. GW2 is the decisive winner for me.

I mean i spend hours every month jumping to points where the product either isn' t available or in some cases the trader isn' t even there anymore. This is rather annoying. Also I occasionally stumble on stuff that's not on TTC.

I love the fact that TTC exists but it's a poor substitution for what the game should offer.
It's subpar functionality.

Well, trading system was designed with more complex ideas like looking not only for stuff, but also for fair prices, for PC it can be easily swapped to global auction and no-one looses anything (thanks to add-ons), for consoles it would be better to leave system as it is now.

bluebird

Lol at that thinly veiled Bosmer stealth sadness! Love it.
Regarding ESO and GW2, I generally agree without points, with only a few things to add.

Endgame/PvE

• Gw2 is much more accessible. Dungeons aren't generally run anymore it's true, but were actually replaced with Fractals which are an increasing-difficulty-curve expansive tiered group content. There is more variety in difficulty and challenge for everybody. Strike missions are also accessible bits of group content and are quick to join and quick to complete. And they have raids too ofc.
• ESO requires everyone to grind out 160cp (realistically 300+) to do endgame content in addition to getting monster heads, and proper endgame sets. The hurdles are far greater, and so are the disparities. Even some vet DLC HMs are trivial for good players, and even normal DLCs are challenging for bad players.

Horizontal progression done right

• Gw2 did horizontal post-max-level progression incredibly well. There are 328 Mastery poins you can earn after level 80. But these aren't flat power increases but truly only for enriching your gameplay. There are mastery tracks for interacting with jumping mushrooms in certain zones, allowing you get more out of that content. Mastery tracks for increasing your resilience against certain environmental hazards in some zones, allowing you to explore more without risk. Masteries are independent from your combat performance and from each other as their effects are contained to regions without invalidating the other regions and other mastery tracks.
• ESO might as well rename its max level from level 50 to level 210. Honestly. CP are a vertical progression system, as you will keep out-levelling your gear until cp160, and you keep getting raw attributes for every CP point in addition to the insane 25%+ bonuses you get from the CP perks themselves. CP is an integral part of the power system, content is balanced around it, so it's just a part of the leveling grind instead of a post-max-level progression system.

Builds, itemization and abilities

• GW2 has a huge advantage over ESO: the raw stats of the armor come from the armor itself, but the set bonuses come from runes that can be inserted and removed at any time. There are two main armor routes to go for, damage over time stats, or direct damage stats. And these can be augmented in major ways by the set runes you put into them, and the sigils you put on your weapons. A Condi Guardian build will be just as powerful as a Power Guardian build with certain weapons and skills in the same patch. Most skills are viable with the proper setup.
• ESO despite all their sets has far less variety. There is a patch where everyone is running DoT builds, there is a patch where everyone is running 2hander builds, everyone farms up MA bows and staves, etc. 90% of people use the same 10% of sets, with 90% of sets never seeing any play. GW2 has far more choice in customising gear and class skills and choosing your weapon skills, while in ESO everyone will just 'Get pFGD and MS, it's BiS'.

Story

• GW2 actually has an overarching story with recurring characters. I wouldn't consider it more childish, the current installment for example is an estranged father reuniting with the mother of his child so they can prevent their son from leading destructive separatist forces in the civil war that is brewing against our PC commander's forces. But yeah it's more comic-like for sure, like a Marvel Movie with bold plots and heroic poses and iconic one-liners I don't think that's a bad thing though.
• ESO's story is trying to be darker but it isn't really. At least not the recent instalments. Elsweyr was a childish comedy wish Cadwell, cat princesses and evil mustache-twirling dragons and necromancers. The only redeeming feature was Abnur. Same with Greymoor, it's an incredibly shallow story, suitable to children's cartoons. I wish ESO returned to their earlier, better storytelling like in Orsinium, or even in the base game zones. There are no more quest chains like old ones where we helped a Dunmer agent save a mining village only to have her be captured during the operation by the Reach, and ending up with her eyes eaten by Hagravens and us going on a quest of vengeance for her as she wails about behind blind. Wish ESO took advantage of its M17+ rating to deliver impactful stories again, not just another wayward princess and cartoon-villains.

Art style

• GW2 is borderline Asian MMO visually. It may not have over-the-top boob physics and cat-girls, but it's close. I can't bear to play Asian-style mmos due to that terrible style, but I can put up with GW2. But certainly, the visual clutter in that game is insane. Cosmetic Wing backpacks, items that make your character glow a certain colour, legendary weapons that make you trail stardust in your footsteps, etc. Visual overload and really quite offputting for new players. Takes a white to see past the neon disco-ball players and find yourself a nice stylistic niche. But there are tons of amazing racial armours that are fantasy done right, too!
• ESO is more toned down, although it has its invasive cosmetics too. Like some insane mount recolours... like translucent green gummybear mounts and mounts that take off your head and replace it with a pumpkin... I mean... seriously. I prefer ESO's art style when it comes to armors and costumes, but many mounts and pets stand out like a sore thumb, while in GW2 those blend in more with the generally exuberant environments.

But yeah, a lot of things will be based on preference. A lot of people enjoy ESO's combat (which I find repetitive and button-mashy), and many find GW2's combat too traditional and slow (while I really enjoy the active ability combos which make it reactive and interactive). So a lot of things like art styles too, will be purely subjective.

That said, I play both games sporadically, and enjoy certain things about both. I think that's the rational approach, even if you really love games it makes sense to acknowledge that some games do certain things better.

hafgood

I play ESO because I enjoy ESO, if I wanted to play GW2 I would play GW2.

Same as if I wanted a central auction house I'd play Runescape or WOW for flying mounts.

I play ESO because it isn't simply listening to the vocal minority of the player base that demand this that and the other.

Learn to enjoy ESO for what it is rather than trying to make it into another game.

Destai

I played Guild Wars 2 for a few hundred hours through HoT before quitting due to no longer having a Windows PC. It's hard to say which is better for me. Both games have been monumental investments.

Guild Wars 2
Pros

• The best community managers I've experienced, updates and progress are conveyed very well.
• Their code delivery is stellar and ArenaNet has always had some of the best network engineers in the business
• Clean UI handles build saving, area looting, craft mat storage, and currency management rather elegantly
• Combat and character build feels very fluid, with most classes having a distinct feel and allowing for a lot of role fantasies to be satisfied.
• Incredibly well done zones with a lot of vertical layers and depth.
• Super Adventure Box was a fun little thing.

Cons

• Annoying daily log-in screen
• Major cities are SUPER slow, even with graphics turned down
• Paper thin story with poor writing. I can remember maybe 2 quests from this game.
• Flashy game elements become noise after a while
• Dungeons are out dated and other game modes are often left behind

ESO
Pros

• The mature TES IP is presented very well and its presented as a mature world. That's not to say there's no comic relief or silliness, but it's not immersion breaking IMO.
• Build flexibility allows for some creative character design.
• Questing and skyshard hunting are fun activities.
• Some good QoL screens like the zone guide have been implemented.
• Each zone offers some really deep and memorable story lines, with fun little collection quests.

Cons

• Community Management is poor and sometimes downright hostile.
• Questing system doesn't allow for easy grouping. Unless you're on the exact same phase of a quest as your friend, you can't quest with them.
• The crown store is full of overpriced offerings and manipulative practices. Crown store announcements as soon as log in, FOMO events, crown crates, and $100+ houses.
• Bugs galore. Quests, combat, facial animations, even submitting a support ticket, all have bugs. Some bugs have been existing since before launch.
• Tooltips don't make sense at times. Like prompting me to bash interrupt an enemy when I'm using a ranged staff, or prompting me to open a door and then jumping instead. Interacting with the world feels clunky.
• Older systems like horse leveling and researching were monetized instead of being updated to be player friendly.
• Feels like we're being charged every step of the way. Few mounts unlock in-game, multiple DLCs every year that most other games include as one package.
• Questing overload and confusing new player experience

Destai

Lannharr wrote: »

GW2 is a very old game. I enjoyed the jumping puzzles though, quitted long time ago.

I can't imagine jumping puzzles in ESO. Our characters just float in the air or get hampered by a mysterious rock or something.

WikileaksEU

MOUNTS

GW2 win here by 1000%

Lannharr

Destai wrote: »

Lannharr wrote: »

GW2 is a very old game. I enjoyed the jumping puzzles though, quitted long time ago.

I can't imagine jumping puzzles in ESO. Our characters just float in the air or get hampered by a mysterious rock or something.

GW2 has jumping puzzles even in PVP areas and I remember, when I was playing, people were allowing each other to complete the puzzle. Yeah I agree, ESO not suitable considering also the performance issues.

Elsonso

Destai wrote: »

Lannharr wrote: »

GW2 is a very old game. I enjoyed the jumping puzzles though, quitted long time ago.

I can't imagine jumping puzzles in ESO. Our characters just float in the air or get hampered by a mysterious rock or something.

I can imagine jumping puzzles in ESO. That is pretty much every day trying to move in Blackreach.

Tigerseye

WikileaksEU wrote: »

MOUNTS

GW2 win here by 1000%

Can't stand the GW2 mounts...

Fischblut

Many times I asked for ability to dye at least mount saddle/mount armor in ESO...

For me, ability to dye mounts (including most of their effects) and fly on Griffons/Skyscales were the only reason to buy GW2... I searched for Jackal mount showcase on Youtube, but there were none for ESO, and plenty for GW2. I was curious and watched one video, and there a player showed different dyes for their mounts... Then I saw freedom of Griffon flight, and awesomeness of owning a dragon (Skyscale). I was sold... Mount gameplay is so epic there Griffons are like racing cars there; if you like riding them, you have the need to own many skins - they all look beautiful in flight And all the color options are enough to make me stuck in editor for long time.

Customization is priceless. So my character is Mesmer and has all purple-colored abilities, what will I do? Buy a purple glowing weapon, dye her costume and dye her mounts, of course







Mounts are very important for me in ESO too. If developers introduced ability to dye mounts, and preferably also add cool flying mounts, I think I would even stop caring about combat nerfs and disrespect to veteran players (vMA and DSA weapons including).

What I also like about GW2 is world bosses/meta events. With all respect to their designers, even legendary enemies - Dragons in Elsweyr - can't come close to the epic madness which is going on in GW2 when meta starts/world boss spawns I don't even like combat in GW2, but I love participating in such events.
I love the tension in the air when the world boss is about to spawn - all the players waiting there, sometimes NPCs have certain dialogues and actions to prepare for boss. And mechanics in some fights are epic.

And the Metal Concert meta event is the best and most fun thing I've seen in any game so far (except for Griffon flight) I wish we could have such activities in ESO, I really do

I absolutely love account-wide achievement and titles in GW2. Achievement points actually have meaning there, cause you get rewards upon reaching certain numbers.

Outfit system is very limited in GW2, I dislike it. You can't use heavy or medium armor styles if your character is class who can only wear light armor, for example. Your only option is to buy costumes for heavy armor look, and as we know, costumes are not always perfect. Also in GW2 we can't dye weapons... But the physics of their clothes are awesome in GW2. Fabric movement is simply awesome, at least I can't complain about anything when my character wears long skirts/capes - they move really well.
Outfit system in ESO is almost perfect. But movement of clothes is... really sad

Overland and quests (DLC and personal story) are very difficult in GW2, I do not enjoy exploration unless I'm on my flying mount and there are no ranged enemies around Expansion/DLCs zones are very lonely, except for certain meta events and farm/quest spots. Veterans there complain that the game is too easy, but I often see in game how high-levels with legendary weapons run/fly away from mobs cause nobody wants to die...
I enjoy exploration and quests in ESO. If I see a treasure chest guarded by mobs in ESO, I start the fight knowing that I will have this chest. If I see chest guarded by mobs in GW2, I start the fight knowing that I have at least 50% chance to die, get no loot and even waste some gold to resurrect at the wayshrine (which might be very far away from this place and I won't feel like returning).
If I quest in ESO, I usually like to read all dialogues, related books/notes etc. In some particularly moments I like to roleplay. In GW2, all quests for me are "finally it's over, I'm so tired!" cause of high difficulty enemies and lot of fights.

kind_hero

It's just your opinion that a global auction house is a good thing, because several MMOs have it. To be honest I dislike having to browse many traders and travelling to each, but on the bright side, this is good for a more dynamic and diverse economy. Addons kind of break this concept, now most people know how to price an item using addons, so the only surprises are from people not using the addons.

Foefaller

I feel like they are each their own thing and (technical issues aside) doing it fairly well. If there was one thing I would like to see from GW2 show up in ESO, it's their Structured PvP progression, which gives players most of the potential build options right from the word go and not have to PvE (or even level!) Anything they don't want to.

It's also hard not to look at GW2's horizontal progression and think that they do it better than ESO.

But I'm not sure if I want hearts or the dissolution of the Holy Trinity or even how trading and crafting works in ESO, but I'm glad those things exist in GW2 whenever I want to go back to that.

tsaescishoeshiner

I have definitely enjoyed both games, but GW2's treatment of women characters has really made me appreciate ESO in how it allows male and female characters to look the same in almost any outfit or armor. ESO doesn't have outfits that are fully-clothed on men, but revealing bikini armor on women (GW2 examples of same outfit on each model: Men, Women; Men, Women; Men, Women; Men, Women; Men, Women (yes, SAME outfit). Not every armor does this, but the revealing outfits are really popular)

Likewise for ESO's (relative) commitment to realistic faces in a fantasy setting. There are no old women, or women without heavy makeup, in GW2 because of the limited character creation options (You can see 1 face there is an exception). No wrinkles, no natural skin, no austere or rugged or wise or charming faces. But dolls in battle bikinis, yes. You have to be "pretty," and pretty only looks like 1 thing.

Honestly, it's often shocking and jarring to see people going along with it, though I understand the appeal. Very different visual style, to put it gently, and I've really tried to hold my tongue here lol. I do like both games, and otherwise they both have good graphics, combat, customization options, and great community

Red_Feather

I left GW2 to play ESO, but GW2's world bosses ARE VERY GOOD.

MrGarlic

I've played both games extensively. Many 1000s of hours on both. So to add to what has already been mentioned.

GW2 has Legendary level weapons and armour. These have extensive collections, take a long time to grind out, are very costly, but take you to content you might not have completed or havent done for a while and back across most zones. ESO had nothing like this until Antiquities were introduced.

GW2 maps are three-dimensional. You can glide, fly on a flying mount and swim underwater. I would love to be able to jump off a cliff in Wrothgar and fly around enjoying the view, but alas.....

Trading is much more accessible in GW2. Both NA and Euro trading posts are linked. You can list something on the NA server and someone on the Euro server could buy it and vice-versa. Newbies can buy and sell immediately without trying to find a guild that has a trader. I've always despised the trading system on ESO because of this.

The achievement system on GW2 actually has useful rewards. ESO, while it does offer titles and colours, could be so much more 'rewarding.'

PvP content in both games come with annoying immature, toxic players which is disappointing.

Boss and monster scaling in GW2 is much better. If 50 people turn up to kill a world boss, it is so much harder to kill than if 50 people turn up to a boss in ESO.

Both games suffer latency and lag issues if you live outside Euro or North America.

There is no fishing in GW2.

idk

Pretty sure GW2 does not have the details we have in ESO which would have an impact on load time. Also, I think GW2 still uses smaller servers though they have them tied together so people can still play together.

The rest is part, they are different games so they will be different, and should be different. and part just an opinion based on preferences. Both are ok. Thx for sharing your thoughts.

Nemesis7884

i really enjoyed gw2 and their skill system and animations...I also really like the low skill fun pvp modes they have....eso could really learn a few things.

Unfortunately you forgot the most important thing - update cycle... you get updates in eso regularly while in gw2 only once in a blue moon...

idk

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

you get updates in gw2 regularly while in gw2 only once in a blue moon...

@Nemesis7884 I think you intended to say something else in this last part. My guess is one of them is intended to be ESO, but you know best what you meant.