Elsweyr and Greymoor have the same main story line

Lyserus

^There
I expressed the same concern back when Elsweyr is out because the story structure was too similar with Summerset, and when Dragonhold is out is was basically the same structure with Elsweyr

But Greymoor took it to the next level, to the point I feel safe to say Greymoor and Elsweyr main storyline are written in the same freaking template.

Everything else with Greymoor is great (for me at least), but damn the main storyline...

Lyserus

Also, glad to see I am not the only one noticing and discussing this.

There are some hints about where the story is going in ESO:

If a king/queen has a daughter:
Chance of the old daddy gonna die one way or another: 90%
Add it to 100% if said daughter expresses strong desire to NOT inherit

If a king/queen has a son heir in game:
He will be the protecting light of his royal parent,
but at the same time 90% useless,
do things like be a racist
getting captured over and over again
or turn to daedra

If someone (especially a noble) act like an ass:
90% that's the traitor
And if he/she turned traitor he/she will deal with daedra, vampire, steal candy from kids, sleep with animals etc so any chance of redemption is gone (because, ZOS is not gonna make another option to redeem, two options are too many options)

Lyserus

And I really, really don't like they make Skald-King act like all good buddy
The dude hoped you can do the dirty job and kill his brother for him
The dude started a pact that "protect their independence" while no one was eyeing them until they made the Pact
Not to mention the three races rarely helped each other after the Akaviri war
And he led that Pact straight into banner war while there are anchors dropping from sky

It would have made more senses if he tries to use the opportunity to take west skyrim as his own
And I would have like Svana a lot more if she can slap Jorunn in the face when he tries

VaranisArano

For good or ill, ZOS tends to reuse a lot of tropes. One that particularly annoys me is the whole "losing a child makes the parent turn evil." We see that one several times in the base game and DLC in both the "good intentions pave the way to hell" and the outright malicious varieties, and it's annoying.

I really loved the complexity of Valsirenn and Leythan's relationship in Summerset, but the moment they revealed that Leythan was involved with the daedric cult, I was like, "he lost his kid, didn't he?" A little while later, yep, we found out that's why he joined up.

Spell-Slinger

It really is annoying how ZOS repeatedly go for the boring tropes. They set up what could be an interesting political game, but it's always the simplistic motives that win out. Rich nobles are evil, rebellious princesses are good. People who join daedric cults have either lost a child or are literally being mind-controlled. I'd love to see someone pushing the narrative that the rebellious princess is actually running away from her duties, and the rich noble is burdened with responsibilities and has to make tough decisions because no one else is able to.

And it's a trend that goes ALL the way back to the base game.

Queen Ayrenn runs off, then suddenly returns to take the throne from her brother Prince Naemon, who's ACTUALLY done all the hard work in her absence. Queen Arzhela of Evermore is so devastated after her husband and children's deaths that she refuses to rule even with enemies on two fronts, yet somehow the man she put in charge in her absence, Duke Renchant, is portrayed as the bad guy when he allies with the Imperials to try and prevent the entire city from being burned and pillaged by Reachmen? How was he supposed to know The Unstoppable Hero (aka the player) would show up in the nick of time and fight off both threats at once?

Josira

the quests in game always felt well..soulless to me. no pun intended.
the few characters that interested me either disappear and dont get reused or die
There was only one character I ended up liking of the 'Five Companions" and well
you know what happened to him. dont know how to use spoiler tags so wont say his name but he got actual character development.
I liked dragonhold's story.
thats about it.

Nestor

There are only 6 Plots that can be used in a story.

Does not mean to only use two of them.

Iccotak

there are not really any moments with any characters that feel emotionally engaging

there are no moments like when in WoW when Varian Wrynn dies because WoW is over-the-top soap opera storytelling
Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLUOTNkGVho

WoW focuses on characters to invest players but Elder Scrolls has historically been only about you the player so they never really put any effort into engaging characters. When there aren't really any characters to engage players the story wilts.
You need to have consistent characters for players to connect.

One of the reasons WoW is still king MMO is because they understand the value of presentation. I don't care how good your story is - if you have poor presentation then people will not care.

ArchMikem

ZOS may not have invested in their writers as they have in the Art department.

Jacarranda

Iccotak wrote: »

there are not really any moments with any characters that feel emotionally engaging

there are no moments like when in WoW when Varian Wrynn dies because WoW is over-the-top soap opera storytelling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLUOTNkGVho

ok but this is awful sorry

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Given the sheer volume of quests it makes senses that stories will be reused, but two central chapter quests is a little much. I was much more interested in Rada al-Saran, but I guess that will come with Q4.

VaranisArano

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Given the sheer volume of quests it makes senses that stories will be reused, but two central chapter quests is a little much. I was much more interested in Rada al-Saran, but I guess that will come with Q4.

That's one of the problems with the year-long stories. I look at the two Harrowstorm dungeons and its terribly obvious how truncated their stories were because they were limited by needing to be the set-up for Greymoor, but also not being necessary to advance the story.

Iccotak

Jacarranda wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

there are not really any moments with any characters that feel emotionally engaging

there are no moments like when in WoW when Varian Wrynn dies because WoW is over-the-top soap opera storytelling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLUOTNkGVho

ok but this is awful sorry

One of the reasons WoW is still king MMO is because they understand the value of presentation. For the most part it doesn't matter how good or bad your story is - if you have poor presentation then people will not care. Good presentation can improve the experience 10 fold.

Not saying ESO should copy WoW method but they do need to work on presentation

Finedaible

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

mairwen85

https://www.autocrit.com/blog/7-stories-world/

Many academics, most notably author Christopher Booker, believe that there are only seven basic plot structures in all of storytelling – frameworks that are recycled again and again in fiction but populated by different settings, characters, and conflicts.

Those seven plots are:

• Overcoming the Monster
• Rags to Riches
• The Quest
• Voyage and Return
• Rebirth
• Comedy
• Tragedy

ESO has them all to varying degrees, but has some more prominent than others. Making plots appear not be one of those 7 basic structures is an art form, and requires creativity to craft the illusion that it isn't the same old, tired, trope. Like with quests structures where you only have:

• go to x and get y
• go to x and kill y
• go to x, kill y, and get z

simplified as: go to x and do y

What makes them feel less formulaic is how they're written and the story around them that hides the bare bones. Quests in ESO are so many that it's hard to creatively provide fresh or rich scenarios around them -- and the same is true for the overarching chapter stories, they've done so many quests at so many levels for so much content, they've run out of material; any new story is just a rehash influenced by what was successful or easy to anchor content against.

Iccotak

VaranisArano wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Given the sheer volume of quests it makes senses that stories will be reused, but two central chapter quests is a little much. I was much more interested in Rada al-Saran, but I guess that will come with Q4.

That's one of the problems with the year-long stories. I look at the two Harrowstorm dungeons and its terribly obvious how truncated their stories were because they were limited by needing to be the set-up for Greymoor, but also not being necessary to advance the story.

Exactly what made Daedric War so good is that it had 3 zones of story content to build up the plot and characters on top of building on what happened in the Plane Meld story line.

The Season arcs have really only two zones - two acts and a rushed finish

Finedaible

Iccotak wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

Given the sheer volume of quests it makes senses that stories will be reused, but two central chapter quests is a little much. I was much more interested in Rada al-Saran, but I guess that will come with Q4.

That's one of the problems with the year-long stories. I look at the two Harrowstorm dungeons and its terribly obvious how truncated their stories were because they were limited by needing to be the set-up for Greymoor, but also not being necessary to advance the story.

Exactly what made Daedric War so good is that it had 3 zones of story content to build up the plot and characters on top of building on what happened in the Plane Meld story line.

The Season arcs have really only two zones - two acts and a rushed finish

I will say that while Elsweyr's story was alright, it was very predictable because of this two-part releases. Like, "ok, big baddy dragon gets sealed off on a plane with an infinite source of power he is consuming but he could perhaps break free some day..." Come Southern Elsweyr's release, "oh noes, guess who it is, trying to ascend to godhood."

Also, Cadwell's instant portals to literally anywhere is kind of a problematic story cop-out now which I'm hoping they don't use any more. It kinda breaks the lore a bit if he and Khamira can literally act with the same power as the Skeleton Key at will.

Lyserus

VaranisArano wrote: »

For good or ill, ZOS tends to reuse a lot of tropes. One that particularly annoys me is the whole "losing a child makes the parent turn evil." We see that one several times in the base game and DLC in both the "good intentions pave the way to hell" and the outright malicious varieties, and it's annoying.

I really loved the complexity of Valsirenn and Leythan's relationship in Summerset, but the moment they revealed that Leythan was involved with the daedric cult, I was like, "he lost his kid, didn't he?" A little while later, yep, we found out that's why he joined up.

Oh and there is also the "something fishy is going on, the one in charge refuse to take action because they made compromises since the enemy is toooo strooong"

Khenarthi

Finedaible wrote: »

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

Thieves Guild *ahem*
Best story, best characters

Faulgor

Khenarthi wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

Thieves Guild *ahem*
Best story, best characters

You are both correct. Orsinium and Thieves Guild are the best DLC, story-wise, to this day. Which is just baffling to me.

They also have the lowest stakes. Nothing world-ending, just interesting characters and good presentation.

I still remember that moment when King Kurog impaled a chieftain in his throne rome, out of the blue. I just finished Greymoor and I don't remember anything.

Aptonoth

Khenarthi wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

Thieves Guild *ahem*
Best story, best characters

Thieves guild truly has best story.

Finedaible

Thieve's Guild story is a solid second for me. It only doesn't take first place for me because I felt the ending was a bit anti-climatic for what it was building up.

KyleTheYounger

Lyserus wrote: »

^There
I expressed the same concern back when Elsweyr is out because the story structure was too similar with Summerset, and when Dragonhold is out is was basically the same structure with Elsweyr

But Greymoor took it to the next level, to the point I feel safe to say Greymoor and Elsweyr main storyline are written in the same freaking template.

Everything else with Greymoor is great (for me at least), but damn the main storyline...

Why are you surprised by this? When the very template you're complaining about happens to be single player Skyrim?

Don't be salty surprised if the next Chapter Prologue happens to be set in Solstheim in modern day Skyrim. Where the Prologue quest requires you to stop the 3 Nord heroes from using that fabled Elder Scroll. And bullying shouting poor Alduin right through that epic time wound and right into present day Raven Rock in Skyrim. Where --after buying the new Chapter for $$$ in the store --- you'll receive the exclusive privilege of being target fodder in the new Chapter MQ. For even MORE annoying flying lizards god mode BOSS Aedra troll NPCs with 20 Million+ HP regen every 2 mins real time.....

Josira

Aptonoth wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

Thieves Guild *ahem*
Best story, best characters

Thieves guild truly has best story.

ehhh did that before greymore's release and....it was predictable. I guessed who the leader was so damn quickly so that when the reveal came along I was just like "REALLY? WOW IT WAS SUCH A SURPRISE I NEVER SAW THAT COMING!"
another problem with quests are just
Well
voice acting
Like most of the voice acting is so bored,conveys well..boredom rather then whatever emotion the character should be feeling when talking. Ive heard rocks with more personality when you throw them.
Dragonhold was..it was good to me because of the voice acting of a certain Khajjiti Smuggler
He spoke with so much damn emotion and energy compared to every other npc in the main game

That damn Rivenspire quest that made me audibly laugh at how bad it was:
Monotone voice one: "She's the bloodfiend."
Monotone voice 2:"Nooooo."
delayed headache emote then delayed run out of room

Pinja

Jacarranda wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

there are not really any moments with any characters that feel emotionally engaging

there are no moments like when in WoW when Varian Wrynn dies because WoW is over-the-top soap opera storytelling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLUOTNkGVho

ok but this is awful sorry

I wouldn't say that... That story was pretty good!

Imagine if ESO went back to alliance warfare with chapter after chapter advancing the story and pumping out PVP experiences. Then one story king Emeric or the Skald king goes down like a badass after a failed invasion.

The games not built with a liner story so characters like Daren kinda just pop up without an excuse.

The best ESO cut scenes were the first of the alliance war.

Nemesis7884

I do think ZOS has to be careful that the chapters dont become too formulaic or they fall into the ubisoft trap

Faulgor

With the princess thread now closed, I have to be fair and say I didn't really notice a lot of similarities in that regard to Elsweyr until towards the end. Svana is not really welcome at court in the beginning, and we pester her into sucking up to her parents. Although she's pretty bland (drinking alcohol doesn't make a character), she's no Khamira, who was this long lost heir to the throne (and which I absolutely can't stand - admittedly because her claim to the Kingdom of Rimmen ruins Akaviri lore in the region, a blatant retcon - and the whole Elsweyr plot falls apart if you don't like Khamira).
So I still held out hope for some new take on palace intrigue, until her father turned out to be the villain all along. Which of course was predictable, but I still hoped for a more interesting resolution.

That's really where the major problem lies in ZOS' recycling of plot lines, imo. Not necessarily that we've had two young princesses in a row taking up the legacy of their dead parents (ZOS really loves monarchies for some reason), but that everyone nice is on the good side and everyone mean is on the bad side.
Also, all the bad guys always team up. Sload + Daedra + Leythan + Veya in Summerset, Dragons + Imperials + Necromancers in Elsweyr, Vampires + Werewolves + Reachmen + Witches Coven + Sea Giants + Svargrim in Greymoor. The motivation is also always just nebulously evil.
And in the end, all the bad guys are defeated (or turned good) of course, and our heroes gather in a big celebration.

What I'd really like to see, princess or no princess, is a more focused story with less villains, better motivations, and not all adversaries defeated in the end. Greymoor would have been more interesting if Svargrim was just a stubborn old fool who didn't spring into action because he tried to hide behind the walls of Solitude from all the enemies he saw (or imagined) around him, and he remained on the throne afterwards despite his failings. Instead, he's just a cartoon villain.

Iccotak

Faulgor wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

Thieves Guild *ahem*
Best story, best characters

You are both correct. Orsinium and Thieves Guild are the best DLC, story-wise, to this day. Which is just baffling to me.

They also have the lowest stakes. Nothing world-ending, just interesting characters and good presentation.

I still remember that moment when King Kurog impaled a chieftain in his throne rome, out of the blue. I just finished Greymoor and I don't remember anything.

ESO needs to work on their presentation in writing and creating emotionally engaging moments for the player.
Score emotional scenes, use the player camera for dramatic moments,
Kurog killing the guy in the throne room was a shock.

An issue I see is that there are high stakes but no consequences. At least in Elsweyr Tharn faced some consequence for seeking out the “Demon Weapon”.

But more importantly there is no consequence to you the player. ESO has to find ways to make them personally invested in the story. Like Mannimarco and Molag Bal, they took your soul - there’s your motivation.

If Elsweyr ended with my character losing the fight, or losing someone, then I would be more invested in the proceeding Dragonhold story.
Imagine if Cadwell died, and it was because of Kaalgrontiid. It just got personal.

Look at Destiny 2. A fan favorite character was killed in an expansion, and it wasn’t done lightly it was a dramatic and dark moment. Players were motivated to find his killer - they were invested in the story.

Elder Scrolls isn’t Warcraft.
WoW is about the cast of characters while you’re there for the ride.
ESO is about You, you’re the main protagonist and the rest of the cast are supporting characters.
Don’t copy WoW, engage players the Elder Scrolls way.

Faulgor

Iccotak wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Wrothgar main story is still best in the game.

Thieves Guild *ahem*
Best story, best characters

You are both correct. Orsinium and Thieves Guild are the best DLC, story-wise, to this day. Which is just baffling to me.

They also have the lowest stakes. Nothing world-ending, just interesting characters and good presentation.

I still remember that moment when King Kurog impaled a chieftain in his throne rome, out of the blue. I just finished Greymoor and I don't remember anything.

ESO needs to work on their presentation in writing and creating emotionally engaging moments for the player.
Score emotional scenes, use the player camera for dramatic moments,
Kurog killing the guy in the throne room was a shock.

An issue I see is that there are high stakes but no consequences. At least in Elsweyr Tharn faced some consequence for seeking out the “Demon Weapon”.

But more importantly there is no consequence to you the player. ESO has to find ways to make them personally invested in the story. Like Mannimarco and Molag Bal, they took your soul - there’s your motivation.

If Elsweyr ended with my character losing the fight, or losing someone, then I would be more invested in the proceeding Dragonhold story.
Imagine if Cadwell died, and it was because of Kaalgrontiid. It just got personal.

Look at Destiny 2. A fan favorite character was killed in an expansion, and it wasn’t done lightly it was a dramatic and dark moment. Players were motivated to find his killer - they were invested in the story.

Elder Scrolls isn’t Warcraft.
WoW is about the cast of characters while you’re there for the ride.
ESO is about You, you’re the main protagonist and the rest of the cast are supporting characters.
Don’t copy WoW, engage players the Elder Scrolls way.

Agreed. Too much hinges on you liking the "good" characters and then feeling for them vicariously.

Sticking with Svana and Svargrim as an example. At the end, we are supposed to feel Svana's conflicting emotions because she had to kill her father (did she even? the fight was so short I didn't notice if she did anything). Even before that, when Svargrim is revealed as a vampire, there is a theme of betrayal. But we don't feel betrayed, the player saw Svargrim is an adversary from the very start.

Both instances would have evoked a deeper emotional response if we, the player, actually had a connection with Svargrim. Imagine the first act of the story revolving around us working for the High King, maybe even eventually becoming his Thane, establishing a good relationship with him after overcoming his initial resentment of outsiders, and then finding out he's a vampire who has been fooling us all this time. So we have to confront and kill a king we followed and protected. What a more engaging and personal story that simple change would make.

King Kurog killing his chieftain is not just shocking because of the presentation, but also because we worked with him up to that point.

Grianasteri

This seems, lazy.

If ZOS needs some creative writing, there are many of us capable of producing fantasy content that is not so heavy on worn on tropes.

Hit me up ZOS, I am available

mairwen85

Grianasteri wrote: »

This seems, lazy.

If ZOS needs some creative writing, there are many of us capable of producing fantasy content that is not so heavy on worn on tropes.

Hit me up ZOS, I am available

You assume they don't have the talent. Of course they do. But the creative process is a group/team dynamic in this situation where the core story is round-tabled and cross checked against viable content creation, saleability, and delivery.