Why is this game so easy?

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

robertthebard wrote: »

show previous quotes

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Overall, One Tamriel destroyed core essence of open-world RPG. In open world RPG you can dynamically "select" difficulty without any sliders, by simply going to harder areas of enemies of higher level when you want challenge and by freely walking in areas with weaker enemies when you just want to relax and feel that you are progressing.
I didn't played Oblivion, but I heard it had awful auto-leveling and so Bethesda managed to nail it in Skyrim, by making some enemies auto-level, some fixed on low levels and some fixed on high levels. Idk why ZOS didn't used that model and instead just applied stats buffs to low level characters, while main contributor to efficiency is equipment... and so if somebody runs group dungeons from level 10 (or crafts his own gear or grinds dolmens/public dungeons) and gets good gear from them, he is simply over-powered when fresh gear is combined with low level buffs.. and if you don't update your gear, you become weaker as level up.
This system is absolutely flawed and screwed and should be changed if ZOS wants overland to be interesting and engaging for all kinds of players.

So now we can just start making up definitions to terms when we need to bolster our arguments? RPG has never, and will never have anything to do with difficulty. If it did, Dark Souls et al wouldn't be anything special, right? It, and games like it, are special because of the difficulty, it's what makes them stand out from the pack.

Hahahahahaha, oh wait, you're serious? Care to guess what the net result of what I bolded from your post would be? Hint: "The game's too easy, we need to step up the difficulty to make it more engaging...". What you seem to be missing here is that we, by our very nature, will trivialize the content. We do that consciously, by gaining optimum gear, and passively, by learning mechanics and using them. At least, it's passive for me, but I've been playing these games for years, and for a lot of those years, I was doing progression raiding, which meant that I had to learn all the mechanics, and how to apply them, and when. So when I was on my first toon going to cap, I didn't marvel at all about how I didn't take damage when I got out of a red circle, because I wasn't in the red circle.

This system, or something similar, is in more than a few OW style MMOs. It's not in DDO, for example, because all the zones where you have to kill stuff are instanced. The quests and explorer zones have level ranges where you won't get any xp, or reduced xp, the higher level above the quest/zone you are. But, it was built that way from the ground up. Ironically, when swtor moved to a similar system, the argument was "but I should be able to go this zone and roflstomp everything"... The same argument was used in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, when they were just trying to keep the "challenge" and loot meaningful.

You are only partially right. Yes, we trivialize the content by getting better gear and more experience etc. But to get gear higher then expected for your current level, you need to go to the areas of higher difficulty. So that is how are they played, you explore the world to became more powerful, to get more tools to deal with linear parts of the story. That's why open world RPGs, particularly Bethesda ones became so popular. Because of engaging gameplay, because of meaningful progression, because you can roleplay your character not by imagining something in your mind, but by actual gameplay, which in most cases is equal to creating your own build and using it in combat. In ESO the only place where you can roleplay that way is Cyrodiil, Imperial City and to some extent BG. Though now after all nerfs / standardization this is rather problematic in PVP as well, because ZOS introduces new OP sets and nerfs old good sets and if you are not using latest meta, you in disadvantage.

In PVE there is no roleplay other then that you will imagine in your own head, because for overland builds are simply not needed and for group content you need fully min-maxed builds, this is simply required by raid leaders.

robertthebard · May 2020

The problem is that this is a trap. It's a never ending treadmill of "the game's too easy", excepting when some of these players get exposed, which will happen, in which case they'll be wanting those changes nerfed, seen it happen. What happens when someone figures out a way to nullify these proposed changes? Someone will figure it out, it's what build theory crafters do, I know, I was one. What happens then? We get another thread about how the game needs to be harder, or there needs to be an official way to make it harder, and then someone "solves" it, and rinse and repeat. 20 years from now, this thread will still be a thing, because someone will always come up with a way to overcome the obstacles, and contrary to the "we're looking for challenge" claims, most will be copy/pasting those builds, and complaining that the game's now too easy again. This isn't a unique situation to ESO. I'd be willing to bet, w/out opening another tab to look, that's there's at least one thread exactly like this one on the GW 2 forums, on the first couple of pages.

Better to leave it alone, the story content isn't supposed to be the challenge. If one isn't engaged by the stories it's supposed to tell, that's certainly a conversation to be had, but this kind of "change the game because I was expecting Dark Souls level difficulty in an MMO"? Nah. As mentioned above, progression still happens no matter what level you hit a zone at, 5 or 50, CP 0 or anything below maxed CP. I wonder though, if the Dark Brotherhood sent one to a zone where they absolutely can't kill anything w/out the Blade of Woe, how much we'd be hearing about "it's not fair" or "it's poor game design"?

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

^ As was discussed, there is very easy solution - several levels of debuff applied to player in terms of damage done, healing done, damage received, etc. This is already implemented long time ago for PVP in form of Battle Spirit. Just create several level of difficulty presets and map last levels to performance achievable by top players. This is really easy to do, I'm sure, if ZOS could see how to monetize this without causing player's outrage they would do it within one update.

robertthebard · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

show previous quotes

robertthebard wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Overall, One Tamriel destroyed core essence of open-world RPG. In open world RPG you can dynamically "select" difficulty without any sliders, by simply going to harder areas of enemies of higher level when you want challenge and by freely walking in areas with weaker enemies when you just want to relax and feel that you are progressing.
I didn't played Oblivion, but I heard it had awful auto-leveling and so Bethesda managed to nail it in Skyrim, by making some enemies auto-level, some fixed on low levels and some fixed on high levels. Idk why ZOS didn't used that model and instead just applied stats buffs to low level characters, while main contributor to efficiency is equipment... and so if somebody runs group dungeons from level 10 (or crafts his own gear or grinds dolmens/public dungeons) and gets good gear from them, he is simply over-powered when fresh gear is combined with low level buffs.. and if you don't update your gear, you become weaker as level up.
This system is absolutely flawed and screwed and should be changed if ZOS wants overland to be interesting and engaging for all kinds of players.

So now we can just start making up definitions to terms when we need to bolster our arguments? RPG has never, and will never have anything to do with difficulty. If it did, Dark Souls et al wouldn't be anything special, right? It, and games like it, are special because of the difficulty, it's what makes them stand out from the pack.

Hahahahahaha, oh wait, you're serious? Care to guess what the net result of what I bolded from your post would be? Hint: "The game's too easy, we need to step up the difficulty to make it more engaging...". What you seem to be missing here is that we, by our very nature, will trivialize the content. We do that consciously, by gaining optimum gear, and passively, by learning mechanics and using them. At least, it's passive for me, but I've been playing these games for years, and for a lot of those years, I was doing progression raiding, which meant that I had to learn all the mechanics, and how to apply them, and when. So when I was on my first toon going to cap, I didn't marvel at all about how I didn't take damage when I got out of a red circle, because I wasn't in the red circle.

This system, or something similar, is in more than a few OW style MMOs. It's not in DDO, for example, because all the zones where you have to kill stuff are instanced. The quests and explorer zones have level ranges where you won't get any xp, or reduced xp, the higher level above the quest/zone you are. But, it was built that way from the ground up. Ironically, when swtor moved to a similar system, the argument was "but I should be able to go this zone and roflstomp everything"... The same argument was used in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, when they were just trying to keep the "challenge" and loot meaningful.

You are only partially right. Yes, we trivialize the content by getting better gear and more experience etc. But to get gear higher then expected for your current level, you need to go to the areas of higher difficulty. So that is how are they played, you explore the world to became more powerful, to get more tools to deal with linear parts of the story. That's why open world RPGs, particularly Bethesda ones became so popular. Because of engaging gameplay, because of meaningful progression, because you can roleplay your character not by imagining something in your mind, but by actual gameplay, which in most cases is equal to creating your own build and using it in combat. In ESO the only place where you can roleplay that way is Cyrodiil, Imperial City and to some extent BG. Though now after all nerfs / standardization this is rather problematic in PVP as well, because ZOS introduces new OP sets and nerfs old good sets and if you are not using latest meta, you in disadvantage.

In PVE there is no roleplay other then that you will imagine in your own head, because for overland builds are simply not needed and for group content you need fully min-maxed builds, this is simply required by raid leaders.

Do me a serious favor, before you try to educate me on what role playing games are, maybe learn what they are first?

I am not partially right. We do trivialize the content. We get the best gear sets we can for what we want to play, we learn the mechanics, and we apply what we've learned. This is what progression raiding was all about. It's what makes "World first clears" something that means something, even if it's just in that crowd, I know, I was in that crowd, although I don't recall ever being in a "World's first" group. Not everyone gets to do that. At any rate, there is, in this case, no "but". My level 20 DK can craft max level potions/poisons. How? I leveled up alchemy with all the mats I've gathered on my other toons before I even rolled it. It's still parked on the second map it ever went to. Guess what, that has nothing to do with role play.

You seem to have this misconception that role playing is limited to what the RP guilds do, and that is very wrong. Very wrong. Being a NB is still role playing, even if you're doing nothing but dungeons, and never once act like you are your character. Being a sorc, the same, being whatever class, the same. This is what the RP stands for in RPG, not hanging out in the tavern, telling stories through character interactions with other characters. Yes, that is role playing, but it's a whole different animal from what the RP implies in RPG.

So you don't understand basic game concepts, and want to attempt to educate the masses on what the game should be based on what you wanted when you came here, which was Skyrim Online, right? That is, of course, what you stated yourself, in another discussion. It's going to be a long road ahead of you when you don't understand what games are, and then try to apply your lack of understanding to what they should be.

Noisivid · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

^ As was discussed, there is very easy solution - several levels of debuff applied to player in terms of damage done, healing done, damage received, etc. This is already implemented long time ago for PVP in form of Battle Spirit. Just create several level of difficulty presets and map last levels to performance achievable by top players. This is really easy to do, I'm sure, if ZOS could see how to monetize this without causing player's outrage they would do it within one update.

I'd pay for it, add it as a toggle feature through the ESO+sub or a crown store purchase. Just don't give me any extra loot, gold, or xp with it.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

Lol, man, chill. How I can avoid "educating you" if with all your forum experience in other MMORPGs, you didn't learned that accusations, personal attacks and phrases like "do me serious favor" will never get you anywhere in discussions. Like I said in your first clueless comment about this game, where you sent me to farm telvar in Cyrodiil... Next.

newtinmpls · May 2020

I'll start by saying I couldn't find the original so I extracted this from a quoted quote - apologies if I have mis-attribted:

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So you deny us (those who are bored by overland since One Tamriel) OPTIONAL mode/slider so we can quest/explore game without falling asleep, and then call us selfish?

ZoS has "denied" you this for literally years now. If you choose to play the blame game, please improve your targeting.

Yes, they (ZoS) will have gotten feedback pro or against it. I suspect that part of the hesitation may be the following idea.

One Tamriel essentially means that everyone is "buffed" to a predetermined "equal" level (we can argue later about if it is equal, but that's the aim). So when folks come together for delves, undaunted, and so on, everyone is potentially theoretically contributing at the same potential "level". In a group with the "slider" really low - that changes.

I don't care about that. Others might.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Speaking of this forum there is nobody even close in selfishness as casuals are. Casuals want to delete PVP, to delete animation cancelling, to delete trading guilds, to delete veteran content higher rewards - i.e. remove all that which makes this game worth playing for many of us .

You appear to be very angry at the idea of loss of various things. However again, your "targeting" seems a bit off. Lets take things one by one:

-Animation cancelling. This is something that people without super high dexterity aren't crazy about because the physical demands of this - in some cases - are perceived to be the "block" in being able to successfully participate in advanced/Vet content. In my case, attempting to follow some of the streamers such as Alcast, I'm two decades older and have trouble pulling it off.

-Trading Guids. The way ZoS has set this up, most guilds require a level of participation of time and energy. I have a friend who is in multiple "high level" guilds, and routinely makes millions of gold. I am in a variety of guilds (social, fishing, PvP - when I do try it, I like to hang with folks that know what they are doing), and a couple moderate trading guilds. None of them have required fees. Some guilds do. The fact that people can now search for the type of guild they like has improved this situation tremendously. Some people want an auction house, but ZoS prefers not to go there. So it's not "delete trading guilds" rather, for some people is "replace it with something I like better".

and again, ZoS' call, not anyone elses.

- [removing] Veteran content higher rewards. ??? I have to admit this is a new one to me. I've not heard anyone argue this, unless it's indirectly by making X easier so "I can get Y reward". Personally, I have accepted the fact that I will never get a "Maelstrom Weapon" because I plan on never doing Maelstrom content. It doesn't appeal to me. I'm a bit sadder about not having a Maw of Lorkan (or whatever it's called) skin, 'cause it looks really cool. But I'll survive.

Overall there are parts of the game that are harder and parts that are easier. Parts that some folks enjoy and others don't. I think as long as there are many options, folks can chose where to spend their time so they enjoy it most. I just find it a bit silly, in a game where parts are deliberately made to be easier/harder to say "well change this easy part to be harder so I can enjoy it" when it was made easy for many reasons AND there already are "harder parts".

Just my opinionated opinion

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

1. One Tamriel. Threads like this appear all the time, this means that not only I am bored by overland. If enough people will request this, ZOS will do it, so I continue to voice my opinion in such threads to increase the chances (because I love TES lore and want to experience it to the fullest, like in TES single player games)
2. if somebody can't / doesn't want to animation cancel, maybe they can ask ZOS for alternative ways to reach high efficiency, for example possibility to line up abilities into long combinations or something like that, instead of asking to remove something which became natural to many players?
3. trading guilds vs AH. As you stated yourself there is no problem to join guilds with moderate or zero fee. Of course their traders are mostly in backwater zones, but with good price you can sell anything on PC because of TTC site. For consoles I agree they need some tool to search through all guilds. Maybe ZOS could create alternative to TTC site themselves
4. unless you have really bad connection, I don't see why you don't want to do VMA. This is one of the most interesting and engaging experiences you may receive in this game. Feeling when you complete it first time is just awesome and if you'll use forum search, you can see ton of threads where players share their first completion and half the forum congratulating them.

robertthebard · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lol, man, chill. How I can avoid "educating you" if with all your forum experience in other MMORPGs, you didn't learned that accusations, personal attacks and phrases like "do me serious favor" will never get you anywhere in discussions. Like I said in your first clueless comment about this game, where you sent me to farm telvar in Cyrodiil... Next.

Yes, an aspect of the game that I ignore due to how irrelevant it is to me disqualifies everything else that you've gotten wrong. Where to begin?

Oh, "I came here looking for Skyrim Online"? That seems like a solid place to start. Maybe we should follow that up with how you wanted to add OW PvP to the game to make it more like Skyrim? We'll let that float around a bit, maybe you'll figure out what was wrong with that desire? I'm going to guess probably not, based on your track record.

Then there's the "but the difficulty is so low that this isn't an RPG". I take it that you've just returned from doing your daily run through the sewers killing rats looking for gold, or crafting materials, in real life? Amazing. Maybe you've been at the mall, using your Blade of Woe to kill random shoppers? No? Seems to be an absurd argument? Of course it does, because these are roles that we can take up in this RPG, regardless of what you think about the difficulty. This is the issue I have with you trying to explain to me what an RPG is. I didn't start RPGs with Dragon Age Origins, or Jade Empire, or even KotoR. Nope, I started with Baldur's Gate. Actually, I started much earlier than that, but that's for cRPGs. I actually started with a little pamphlet playing Dungeons and Dragons, no edition number, because there weren't any, yet. None of this has anything to do with difficulty. This is another of your misconceptions, and yet you feel qualified to educate us on RPGs? You're not.

So you start out with premise based on a fallacy: Difficulty = RPG. You then insist that because you want Skyrim Online, they should add PvP in the regular maps. Have you figured out the fallacy of that yet? I'm betting no. I'm betting that you have no idea why I would dare to question the logic of your desire, insinuating that Skyrim and PvP have nothing in common. So, I'm going to just spoil my fun watching you thrash around, and spell it out for you: Skyrim is a Single Player game.

PvP

Single Player

Starting to get an idea about why I might put 0 value on your input to gaming in general, let alone what makes an RPG? Your disinformation, and misinformation would probably have a lot to do with it.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

Robert,
I have no idea, why you care so much about my input.
To end this on friendly note, let me answer with meme

Kiralyn2000 · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

4. unless you have really bad connection, I don't see why you don't want to do VMA. This is one of the most interesting and engaging experiences you may receive in this game.

It's one of the most interesting and engaging experiences YOU may receive. Not everyone enjoys the same stuff.

Feeling when you complete it first time is just awesome

I'm glad that works for you. I don't really get that, which is probably part of why I tend to avoid "tough achievement"/"scaling the cliff"-style game experiences. When I finally beat that three-stage JRPG boss after several tries to find out the new complication in each stage? I don't get a "YEAH! Endorphin Rush! Woohoo!". I get a "thank god that's over, and I can get back to the game." Story, exploration, character customization (the visual kind, not the theorycrafting kind*)... those are fun. Beating my head against Awesome Challenge until I surpass it... not so much.

(which also ties in to my lack of interest in PvP or "leaderboards"/high-score charts - I'm not strongly competitive. I don't care to "beat" anyone else.)

* I mean, trying different builds & skill mixes can be fun, too. But I don't take it to the "meta"/effective extreme. It's more of a "try an alt a different style" thing. Like in Diablo 2 - I never got a character up to Hell difficulty & "farmed endgame" for Perfect Loot. I kept making new alts and playing them through and into medium difficulty, trying different talent trees. Worst thing about Diablo 3 was the whole "infinite respec, always gain skills the same way"/"rush to endgame to farm things on Torment 23!". It took away the thing I enjoyed the most about D2, and focused entirely on endgame Perfect Loot farming.

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

show previous quotes

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

4. unless you have really bad connection, I don't see why you don't want to do VMA. This is one of the most interesting and engaging experiences you may receive in this game.

It's one of the most interesting and engaging experiences YOU may receive. Not everyone enjoys the same stuff.
show previous quotes

Feeling when you complete it first time is just awesome

* I mean, trying different builds & skill mixes can be fun, too. But I don't take it to the "meta"/effective extreme. It's more of a "try an alt a different style" thing. Like in Diablo 2 - I never got a character up to Hell difficulty & "farmed endgame" for Perfect Loot. I kept making new alts and playing them through and into medium difficulty, trying different talent trees. Worst thing about Diablo 3 was the whole "infinite respec, always gain skills the same way"/"rush to endgame to farm things on Torment 23!". It took away the thing I enjoyed the most about D2, and focused entirely on endgame Perfect Loot farming.

Yes, but what we discuss here is increase in difficulty not for the sake of difficulty or loot grind, but for the sake of making questing possible for those who can't do it without engaging gameplay. Even in real life, if I am travelling and doing something in process it allows me to explore new city / country better then if you will be just sitting in hotel and going out for souvenirs and sightseeing. But I know ton of people who quite opposite doesn't like to leave their bus other then with guide and mostly concerned with IG photos and so on. Both ways are good, I think and so we need both ways in ESO.

robertthebard · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Robert,
I have no idea, why you care so much about my input.
To end this on friendly note, let me answer with meme

I don't, I just hate Fake News.

Strider__Roshin · May 2020

I'll have you know that there's a lot of value in this game's difficulty. For instance, ever have a hard time falling asleep? Just boot up the game and problem solved. You're welcome.

newtinmpls · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

3. trading guilds vs AH. As you stated yourself there is no problem to join guilds with moderate or zero fee. Of course their traders are mostly in backwater zones,

The two guilds that I do most of my trading in usually have very good placements. One is usually in Stormhaven, which is pretty brisk, and the other alternates between several spots, but was in ...whatsit Main City in Coldharbor recently (brain fart, can't remember the name of it).

So no, not all low or no fee guilds end up in "backwater spots".

Your next point was:

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

4. unless you have really bad connection, I don't see why you don't want to do VMA. This is one of the most interesting and engaging experiences you may receive in this game.

And I was going to answer it, but then I saw this comment, and this poster said what I was thinking, and expressed it beautifully:

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

It's one of the most interesting and engaging experiences YOU may receive. Not everyone enjoys the same stuff.
show previous quotes

Feeling when you complete it first time is just awesome

I'm glad that works for you. I don't really get that, which is probably part of why I tend to avoid "tough achievement"/"scaling the cliff"-style game experiences. When I finally beat that three-stage JRPG boss after several tries to find out the new complication in each stage? I don't get a "YEAH! Endorphin Rush! Woohoo!". I get a "thank god that's over, and I can get back to the game." .

I can very very much identify with the "thank god THAT's over"

I get it after trying a "new" DLC dungeon (gads most of them are damage sponge annoyances); after most Vet content and usually after PvP or BG. There are plenty of things in this game I don't like - so I don't do them.

I concentrate on what I like.

robertthebard wrote: »

actually started with a little pamphlet playing Dungeons and Dragons, no edition number, because there weren't any, yet. None of this has anything to do with difficulty.

Oh wow, I started with "the blue box" and because we only had one copy, one of us went to the library and checked out the pamphlet versions. Yes, seriously.

Small world sometimes!

Mortac · May 2020

Yesterday's leveling experience:

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage. Fight a boss that is killed in 8 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Other players are around so most things are already dead. Try to get a hit in before things die. Get to boss, other players are already killing him. Get one light attack in to get tagged for the kill.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

.....

Good game.

As I was running through a crypt I was thinking how nice the graphics were (even though the textures are so low-res) and what lovely atmosphere it creates, and that it's too bad the actual PVE gameplay completely sucks. I was thinking this game could've been so amazing if only combat was more engaging and if it felt like an effort to actually advance through places instead of mowing everything down like a train that never stops. Having to actually pick your primary targets, having to heal through things, and having to asses a room before you enter it. Perhaps even sneak-attacking and CC'ing stuff could be a thing.

But nope, just mindlessly run through things without any thought or effort, hit them a few times while trying to pull as many mobs as you can seems to be what some consider good gameplay. What a waste of such a beautifully created game world.

And yes, I'm still talking about overland, delves, public dungeons and general questing. Dungeons and raids are not part of the topic.

Tigerseye · May 2020

Mortac wrote: »

Yesterday's leveling experience:

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage. Fight a boss that is killed in 8 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Other players are around so most things are already dead. Try to get a hit in before things die. Get to boss, other players are already killing him. Get one light attack in to get tagged for the kill.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

.....

Good game.

As I was running through a crypt I was thinking how nice the graphics were (even though the textures are so low-res) and what lovely atmosphere it creates, and that it's too bad the actual PVE gameplay completely sucks. I was thinking this game could've been so amazing if only combat was more engaging and if it felt like an effort to actually advance through places instead of mowing everything down like a train that never stops. Having to actually pick your primary targets, having to heal through things, and having to asses a room before you enter it. Perhaps even sneak-attacking and CC'ing stuff could be a thing.

But nope, just mindlessly run through things without any thought or effort, hit them a few times while trying to pull as many mobs as you can seems to be what some consider good gameplay. What a waste of such a beautifully created game world.

And yes, I'm still talking about overland, delves, public dungeons and general questing. Dungeons and raids are not part of the topic.

I don't know if they have changed things, since I last levelled a character from scratch (with no CP, or crafted gear), nearly 3 years ago, or whether it is just a sad indictment of Warden, or bow, or both(?), but that was not my experience, back then.

No, regular mobs weren't quite as hard as they had been, when I first levelled a Sorc at launch, but they weren't 3 sec kills, that couldn't damage me at all and the bosses in delves could take a while to kill at low level, damage me quite badly and even kill me, occasionally, if I didn't take care.

Lysette · May 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mortac wrote: »

Yesterday's leveling experience:

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage. Fight a boss that is killed in 8 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Other players are around so most things are already dead. Try to get a hit in before things die. Get to boss, other players are already killing him. Get one light attack in to get tagged for the kill.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

.....

Good game.

As I was running through a crypt I was thinking how nice the graphics were (even though the textures are so low-res) and what lovely atmosphere it creates, and that it's too bad the actual PVE gameplay completely sucks. I was thinking this game could've been so amazing if only combat was more engaging and if it felt like an effort to actually advance through places instead of mowing everything down like a train that never stops. Having to actually pick your primary targets, having to heal through things, and having to asses a room before you enter it. Perhaps even sneak-attacking and CC'ing stuff could be a thing.

But nope, just mindlessly run through things without any thought or effort, hit them a few times while trying to pull as many mobs as you can seems to be what some consider good gameplay. What a waste of such a beautifully created game world.

And yes, I'm still talking about overland, delves, public dungeons and general questing. Dungeons and raids are not part of the topic.

I don't know if they have changed things, since I last levelled a character from scratch (with no CP, or crafted gear), nearly 3 years ago, or whether it is just a sad indictment of Warden, or bow, or both(?), but that was not my experience, back then.

No, regular mobs weren't quite as hard as they had been, when I first levelled a Sorc at launch, but they weren't 3 sec kills, that couldn't damage me at all and the bosses in delves could take a while to kill at low level, damage me quite badly and even kill me, occasionally, if I didn't take care.

This hasn't changed for as long as one plays solo and with normal gear - as in self-made and blue with an occasional purple maybe. guys who consider purple as undergeared will never understand this though.

robertthebard · May 2020

Mortac wrote: »

Yesterday's leveling experience:

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Fight a few things you kill in 3 seconds without barely taking any damage. Fight a boss that is killed in 8 seconds without barely taking any damage.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

Run from point A to point B. Other players are around so most things are already dead. Try to get a hit in before things die. Get to boss, other players are already killing him. Get one light attack in to get tagged for the kill.

Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Pick something up. Run from point A to point B. Talk. Run from point A to point B. Talk.

.....

Good game.

As I was running through a crypt I was thinking how nice the graphics were (even though the textures are so low-res) and what lovely atmosphere it creates, and that it's too bad the actual PVE gameplay completely sucks. I was thinking this game could've been so amazing if only combat was more engaging and if it felt like an effort to actually advance through places instead of mowing everything down like a train that never stops. Having to actually pick your primary targets, having to heal through things, and having to asses a room before you enter it. Perhaps even sneak-attacking and CC'ing stuff could be a thing.

But nope, just mindlessly run through things without any thought or effort, hit them a few times while trying to pull as many mobs as you can seems to be what some consider good gameplay. What a waste of such a beautifully created game world.

And yes, I'm still talking about overland, delves, public dungeons and general questing. Dungeons and raids are not part of the topic.

What is it you were expecting? To die every other time you left town? Allow me to suggest something like Dark Souls. The first third of your post is answered quite simply with "welcome to every RPG ever", and even a lot of FPS campaigns. I don't spend a lot time sightseeing during fights, so I'm not sure what the waste is on environment there, I get my environment moving around the area I'm in. Fights aren't hard, and I can't be sure if it's because they're designed that way, or if it's because I've got the mechanics figured out, and thus have trivialized the content beyond any hope that they can do anything to "fix" it.

"But they can make a slider to adjust us", yeah, we can already do that. Don't spend your CP until you hit endgame. Don't get your sets together until you hit endgame. "But why should we nerf ourselves?" The suggestions thrown around include having the devs nerf us, so why shouldn't we nerf ourselves, and free up dev time for other things? It's like players think that they have no role in how engaging a game is, for some reason. I find the game just fine. I trivialize a lot of content by starting the Dark Brotherhood, and getting the Blade of Woe. I had a whisper in the library in the end of the main story in Cold Harbor about sneaking up behind groups and taking out the mage in the group that way, as the person who whispered me never thought of that. Do I need the devs to nerf that? Are they going to nerf the weapon, or are they somehow going to stop me from figuring out ways to simplify combat?

Maybe they should put all skills on a global cooldown, to minimize "rotations"? This is something that a lot of us do automatically, so it should be nerfed to make combat more "engaging"? I mean, it would be, we'd be spending a lot of time engaged with our timers. I've played games like this, although their names escape me right now, and nah, I'd prefer if they didn't. This is, however, the biggest thing that I see wrong with these suggestion threads to make games harder, they forget to take player skill into account. Just because a player hadn't played any MMOs before doesn't mean they have 0 experience with action style combat. On the flip side of that, there may well be players that find what we have now adequately challenging, their first time through.

JMadFour · May 2020

eh. this topic amuses me.

The Overworld is fine just the way it is, in my opinion. The stories and characters are fun to experience, the combat is good for that sort of experience.

But if people want to be sweaty about solo content, instead of grouping up and running the actual difficult content in the game that was designed for people like them, who are we to stop em?

ZOS should make an optional World difficulty level that bumps every mob up a few pegs. Normal Mobs become Elites, Elites become Dungeon Bosses, Dungeon, Delve, and Quest Bosses become World Bosses. Apply this to every NPC in the game (even Justice NPCs). So..Elite Mudcrabs. Every Minotaur on the Gold Coast is now a dungeon boss. That Alliance Zone Story Quest Boss is now World Boss level. and so on.

It's a simple way to go about adding difficulty, and it's optional so the 2% of the population who wants sweaty overland content can have it, and everyone else can just keep on playing the way they always have been.

Why limit options when they can be provided relatively simply?

robertthebard · May 2020

JMadFour wrote: »

eh. this topic amuses me.

The Overworld is fine just the way it is, in my opinion. The stories and characters are fun to experience, the combat is good for that sort of experience.

But if people want to be sweaty about solo content, instead of grouping up and running the actual difficult content in the game that was designed for people like them, who are we to stop em?

ZOS should make an optional World difficulty level that bumps every mob up a few pegs. Normal Mobs become Elites, Elites become Dungeon Bosses, Dungeon, Delve, and Quest Bosses become World Bosses. Apply this to every NPC in the game (even Justice NPCs). So..Elite Mudcrabs. Every Minotaur on the Gold Coast is now a dungeon boss. That Alliance Zone Story Quest Boss is now World Boss level. and so on.

It's a simple way to go about adding difficulty, and it's optional so the 2% of the population who wants sweaty overland content can have it, and everyone else can just keep on playing the way they always have been.

Why limit options when they can be provided relatively simply?

Because it's diverting resources from somewhere else, for a part of the population that will then complain that it's too hard, and some that will complain that it's still not hard enough. I've seen it happen, even been banned from a game's forum for laughing at the "we need harder content, but not this hard" crowd.

Rave the Histborn · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

show previous quotes

newtinmpls wrote: »

Coatmagic wrote: »

PS: Absolutely love the comment about 'basic purple gear' ROFLMA.

OMG... I missed this one.

Put in the pile of people who don't think having maxed CP on their Lvl 1 character makes a difference.

You have purple weapons from level up rewards. Also improving to purple requires like zero effort and laughable amount of gold. Also only gold weapons and gold jewelry have some notable advantage, other pieces don't have critical difference, especially between blue and purple.

Only if you've got lots of playtime in the game. No one just starting the game is going to upgrade their gear to purple and it's only laughable to you because youve got tons of gold. Beginning players aren't going to be upgrading like that

robertthebard · May 2020

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

show previous quotes

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Coatmagic wrote: »

PS: Absolutely love the comment about 'basic purple gear' ROFLMA.

OMG... I missed this one.

Put in the pile of people who don't think having maxed CP on their Lvl 1 character makes a difference.

You have purple weapons from level up rewards. Also improving to purple requires like zero effort and laughable amount of gold. Also only gold weapons and gold jewelry have some notable advantage, other pieces don't have critical difference, especially between blue and purple.

Only if you've got lots of playtime in the game. No one just starting the game is going to upgrade their gear to purple and it's only laughable to you because youve got tons of gold. Beginning players aren't going to be upgrading like that

I'm not even a new player, and I still can't upgrade my endgame sets to gold due to lack of gold and mats. Of course, it doesn't help that I've been buying houses in every map I can, so that I can fast travel to regions for free if I have to on a character that hasn't been yet. Fixing to be a non-issue though, I'm running out of "cheap" houses...

idk · May 2020

MJallday wrote: »

Show me your flawless conquerer title
Show me your emporer title
Show me your divayth fir co-adjitator title
Show me your dro’mathra destroyer title
Show me your immortal redeemer title
Show me your godslayer title
Show me a video where you’ve solo’d a southern elsewyr dragon

Then do it On console

Until then, the “game” is not easy

/thread

Exactly. I assume @Mortac missed your post as they have returned to this thread since. If they are not clearing the content designed to be the more challenging it then the problem lies with their own choices, not the game's design.

FYI for OP, it tends to be the case with the largest and most successful MMORPGs of today's time that they have what is called tiered difficulty. This is the design ESO has and it is clearly a design that works extremely well. Very smart business decision Zos mas made.

idk · May 2020

Mortac wrote: »

Dungeons and raids are not part of the topic.

Not the case at all.

Being that Zos has used the tiered difficulty design used by most major MMORPGs of today's time it is very much on the topic. Just because you seem to choose to ignore and maybe even avoid the more challenging content many of us have mentioned is what is irrelevant.

Flynch · May 2020

They should have a scroll similar to the EXP boosters that lowers your stats and damage output by 10% for 2 hours but increases gold drop, chance at better items and overall experience gain by that amount

Artanisul · May 2020

Tigerseye wrote: »

show previous quotes

MattVH wrote: »

@newtinmpls

(man i don't even know how this forum works anymore, when it comes to responses lol)

Why would you not know how the "forum works, anymore"?

It works like every other forum does, doesn't it?

Did they change it from how it worked, originally?

Even then, it works like pretty much every other forum.

So, if you used to know how to quote on a forum, as you used to use it correctly, how come you can't now?

Unless that wasn't you?

This is the first forum I have used that functions this way with Quotes/reporting, heck even page layout. This is similar to some tech forums I have used and some community "ask your questions here" sort of things. I found this forum to feel "old" even though it's new to me. Cumbersome is the word I think....

Kiralyn2000 · May 2020

Artanisul wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tigerseye wrote: »

MattVH wrote: »

@newtinmpls

(man i don't even know how this forum works anymore, when it comes to responses lol)

Why would you not know how the "forum works, anymore"?

It works like every other forum does, doesn't it?

Did they change it from how it worked, originally?

Even then, it works like pretty much every other forum.

So, if you used to know how to quote on a forum, as you used to use it correctly, how come you can't now?

Unless that wasn't you?

This is the first forum I have used that functions this way with Quotes/reporting, heck even page layout. This is similar to some tech forums I have used and some community "ask your questions here" sort of things. I found this forum to feel "old" even though it's new to me. Cumbersome is the word I think....

Huh. Works the same as just about every other game forum I read.

HouLiGaN · May 2020

Your only level 40.... the game isn’t suppose to be hard for you just yet. Get to 810 Cp. And go do trials in vHM... and post again. The hard part comes with finding another 11 focused players to clear them.

IronWooshu · May 2020

Mortac wrote: »

It annoys me to no end. I want to play content that isn't tuned for a 5-year old. But it seems 90% of the PVE content is tuned for just that.

I'm not talking about raids or dungeons (public dungeons excluded). Those seem alright.

But when it comes to general questing, delves and the world in general, you can literally run around in crappy green gear 10 levels below your level and still demolish everything like nothing. How is that in any way fun?

I'm currently leveling with a friend and we're closing in on level 40. The game is a huge yawn-fest and we're craving for something to challenge us. He's playing a healer, but almost never have anything to heal. Questing and killing mobs is just a tedious running from A to B, only stopping to kill monsters in 2-8 seconds and it doesn't really matter how many monsters we pull either. We're basically playing an MMO that is tuned for under-geared 5-year olds. I'm saying that because my son can play this game without being able to read or have any understanding of what the skills on his hotbar do. He just mashes them randomly and kills things.

Doing delves feels so pointless. Usually you run into other players as well and everyone's just aching to kill stuff, but everything is mowed down in 2 seconds, and delves really become nothing but something you just run through, trying to get a hit or two in on things to gain exp. So incredibly boring, and such incredibly bad design.

Delves shouldn't even be public when the game is tuned in this way. I say this because they're literally tuned for a badly geared, completely unskilled SOLO player. So the moment you add more people in there, the already trivial content becomes fully and completely pointless from a gameplay perspective.

What's been by far the most fun so far has been killing world bosses (those skulls on the map) and running (non-public) dungeons as a duo. But as soon as you add a couple more players, even that content becomes quite easy. The only annoying thing is that dungeons are in general quite easy, too, but they add certain one-shot or nearly one-shot mechanics into the game to make it harder. That's a lousy way of adding challenge, because it means you can run through everything you're thrown against, but then a sudden and sometimes unavoidable mechanic prevents you from advancing further. Those are some of the most frowned-upon things from a player perspective because they're just not fun.

I'm not level 50 yet so some things might change, but overall this game needs a huge re-tuning. Doubling mob health and damage would be a start, but much more would certainly be required. Delve bosses are more like what normal mobs should be like, but even those are ridiculously easy. Would much prefer longer, harder fights with higher experience rewards per kill than the current trivial content of killing things in a few seconds without barely taking any damage.

Does nobody want even a tiny bit of challenge these days?

PS: Fix the damn bug that sometimes prevents you from attacking or using abilities!!

Having no CP helps a tiny bit but if you already know the fights its still relatively very easy.