Why is this game so easy?
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Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
There is plenty of gold simply from questing and selling all those trash drops to NPC traders. I remember I wasn't doing any crafting writs or trading, I was simply randomly doing dolmens/public dungeons all over the Tamriel and I had enough gold to regularly upgrade bag capacity, I remember I was even buying various motifs from guild traders.. there were 100% no shortage of gold.
There's a difference between buying some motica and bag upgrades vs disposable armor for upgrades and mats. Thabks for proving my point though0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭
Like a do over? i.e. play overland with your max cp character as if was a new character?
Like a veteran dungeon. It's harder than normal dungeon, mechanics that you have to do or you die and has seperate progression from normal.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
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Like a veteran dungeon. It's harder than normal dungeon, mechanics that you have to do or you die and has seperate progression from normal.
OK, so a re-implementation of overland with enriched mechanics...0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭
OK, so a re-implementation of overland with enriched mechanics...
Yeah it's pretty obvious what the veteran overland mode people are asking for.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The easiest to implement would be a debuff and a feature which really puts fear in your heart - like not being able to log in for a week if you die. imo no one deserves a hard mode if he isn't willing to play at semi-full risk - with a semi-permadeath feature.Edited by Lysette on May 4, 2020 1:02PM0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭The easiest to implement would be a debuff and a feature which really puts fear in your heart - like not being able to log in for a week if you die. imo no one deserves a hard mode if he isn't willing to play at semi-full risk - with a semi-permadeath feature.
So is this something YOU want to play or is it just you not liking people asking for a mode and trying to ruin it for them?2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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So is this something YOU want to play or is it just you not liking people asking for a mode and trying to ruin it for them?
i am not good at this game due to very high ping (hardly ever can escape the red) - but i would like to play it like this - I like permadeath gameplay, but in an MMO where you have to pay for features, a semi-permadeath is good enough.0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭
i am not good at this game due to very high ping (hardly ever can escape the red) - but i would like to play it like this - I like permadeath gameplay, but in an MMO where you have to pay for features, a semi-permadeath is good enough.
That's not the point of veteran mode though. People are asking for an overland mode that's similar comparison to normal and vet dungeons' difference.0 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭
As long as the debuff puts you into another instance with other people that have the debuff and the debuff mode has its own progression seperate from normal mode.
You do realise a debuff would have nothing to do with instances, right? It's literally a status effect on a player, just like Battle Spirit, and as it just so happens, players can have Battle Spirit while being in the same instance as everybody else.
Making a normal and a veteran overland will split the population, because some players who want a harder overland are populating the current overland, as well as players who are fine with the current state of overland, though would still like an option of a harder overland.
Debuff is the best way to go about it, because it keeps everyone in the same instance, just with their own character stats being altered to scale their individual difficulty. Reduce damage done to effectively increase mob health and toughness, increase damage received to effectively increase mob damage, reduce healing received to offset the effective increase to mob damage, so players can't just heal through the damage with the current relatively OP heals.
Everybody's thinking of this as if it were a copypaste of dungeon instances, but it isn't. Overland has a far higher population with far fewer instances to spread that population across, and is balanced with a high population in mind. There needs to be a solution that keeps populations in the same instances.4 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭
You do realise a debuff would have nothing to do with instances, right? It's literally a status effect on a player, just like Battle Spirit, and as it just so happens, players can have Battle Spirit while being in the same instance as everybody else.
Making a normal and a veteran overland will split the population, because some players who want a harder overland are populating the current overland, as well as players who are fine with the current state of overland, though would still like an option of a harder overland.
Debuff is the best way to go about it, because it keeps everyone in the same instance, just with their own character stats being altered to scale their individual difficulty. Reduce damage done to effectively increase mob health and toughness, increase damage received to effectively increase mob damage, reduce healing received to offset the effective increase to mob damage, so players can't just heal through the damage with the current relatively OP heals.
Everybody's thinking of this as if it were a copypaste of dungeon instances, but it isn't. Overland has a far higher population with far fewer instances to spread that population across, and is balanced with a high population in mind. There needs to be a solution that keeps populations in the same instances.
The debuff would be useless. It would not give the mode I and others are asking for.
Again, the splitting player-base argument is BS.0 -
West93✭✭✭✭✭
That would split the population, which could cause other issues. The way to tackle this is through a player debuff of sorts.
Zones have already different instances, my friends were dueling at mournhold gates I couldn't find them till I got invited to group and then had to teleport to that same zone again but different zone instance.
Veteran zone would just make overland monsters do more damage have more health etc similar to difference between normal and vet maelstrom arena, quests, rewards, drops, guild traders, story line quests etc remain the same.
Maybe add some extra achievement for it.
Also if I want to duel someone why would I have to keep some debuff on me and gimp myself?1 -
eKsDee✭✭✭✭✭Zones have already different instances, my friends were dueling at mournhold gates I couldn't find them till I got invited to group and then had to teleport to that same zone again but different zone instance.
And adding normal/vet variants would double them, hence splitting the population.Veteran zone would just make overland monsters do more damage have more health etc similar to difference between normal and vet maelstrom arena, quests, rewards, drops, guild traders, story line quests etc remain the same.
Which can be accomplished through a debuff like Battle Spirit, that has multiple scaling points (ie maybe half a dozen different difficulty settings that each adjust your damage done, damage received and healing received differently), without even touching instances.Also if I want to duel someone why would I have to keep some debuff on me and gimp myself?
Read the whole thread before replying, or at least the last page. What I'm suggesting is an automatic debuff like Battle Spirit, that automatically and only applies in overland zones. You don't need to do anything, except select a difficulty setting, and the game does the rest.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
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If there are no new/better rewards, it will be pointless and nobody will use it. We've been through this with silver/gold zones. That's just not how games work. If the content is harder, the rewards have to be better. Otherwise, why have different loot in normal/veteran/hardmode dungeons and trials?
Because (as per previous posters) people want the challenge. Personally, I see no harm in the usual green/blue gear dropping purple in an increased difficulty overland -- it's mostly trash anyway.
i am not baiting -but you are right with that hammering on it even more is not constructive - so i will leave it at that.
The way I see it, the increased difficulty request for overland is in the same league as the story mode for dungeons request we so often see. Both are valid requests which give something to the player-base, even if that is only in the form of options. The option to self-debuff via difficulty sliders, or single player mode a dungeon purely for the story as if it were delve. Neither of those requires any specific reward other than the option itself. The real question is viability of it to implement, and if people are asking for it, then it is viable from a business perspective -- do the potential gains outweigh the effort/cost? That's where the conversation ultimately leads, and no one in this thread knows the metrics enough to comment on that.Edited by mairwen85 on May 4, 2020 2:09PM0 -
Skykaiser_Ọlọrun✭✭✭asuzab16_ESO wrote: »Where it gets extremely worrying is that the more companies listen to these players, the more the content outside of mythic/veteran dungeons/raid becomes tasteless and the more people want to skip it, to the point where you literally can let a 5 years old (I would not recommend doing so tho), like the OP said, reach level 50. Because of that, all the effort put in creating zones, quests and combat systems is highly devaluated, and I'm afraid that we will reach at some point "MMOs" that are just dungeon/raid finder interfaces without no open worlds.
Yeah, one of the problems with WoW or FFXIV (as much as I enjoy that game) is that people are either idling in the main cities or in instanced content. Both games have huge worlds that are largely empty because there's just no reason for anyone to bother with it. If they must leave, they blitz through the world on their flying mounts to get it over with as fast as possible because they just aren't interested. And why would they be? Like you said, if you actually want to play your character, instanced dungeons are your only option. The open worlds in MMOs are starting to feel like boxes to be ticked off instead of actual, engaging parts of the game.
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Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
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Because (as per previous posters) people want the challenge. Personally, I see no harm in the usual green/blue gear dropping purple in an increased difficulty overland -- it's mostly trash anyway.
Historically, that has never worked out. If there are no better rewards, it will be truly not worth the development cost because virtually nobody will do unrewarding content.
And what's the argument against better rewards? Just spite? Because, again, the same argument would apply to the better rewards we currently see in veteran/hardmode group content. Shouldn't they be content with the challenge then as well?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.4 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
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Historically, that has never worked out. If there are no better rewards, it will be truly not worth the development cost because virtually nobody will do unrewarding content.
And what's the argument against better rewards? Just spite? Because, again, the same argument would apply to the better rewards we currently see in veteran/hardmode group content. Shouldn't they be content with the challenge then as well?
🤷 just answering your question with the information available in the thread.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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You'll simply have to accept that this is the case, or more on to another game. They made overland content easier, I even think they did so multiple times. And this is the way they want it, and I doubt many feel this is a problem. Most people playing this game don't do it for questing, they move either towards "endgame" PVE or PVP content. Hardcore difficult overland content isn't an ESO thing, and I highly doubt they will ever change that.
Comparatively, it's a little bit like sitting as an adult with a pre-school maths introduction book, doing it over and over again, complaining about it being too easy. You are meant to move on. This is the way ESO is, players who are into questing generally don't like it because it's so challenging, but because of achievements, rewards and such. Because they like the lore and the storylines and what not. Every game is different.
You are right it's time to move on. I just can't comprehend counter-arguments of this thread. I may understand people who are saying, "yeah, overland is pointlessly easy, but I only need to gather skyshards and resource surveys, so I'm ok that my toon kills mobs in 2 clicks" or "I'm only use overland for fishing, to enjoy views and to listen to quest dialogs"... but when somebody says that overland difficulty is sufficient and that some players can DIE (imagine, to DIE in multiplayer game, it is unacceptable!!!) and so even OPTIONAL mode/slider will somehow lead to exploits (and harassment - it seems people forget what is real harassment, if they constantly use this word when somebody duels in the city/tavern).. I just can't hold myself.4 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »I just can't hold myself.
Spillage on aisle 3!
I think more options is better, even if I'm happy with nuke-fest, doesn't invalidate the requirement of other long term players for challenge, or new comers who want similar.Edited by mairwen85 on May 4, 2020 4:09PM1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭asuzab16_ESO wrote: »Most MMOs, and ESO is no exception, have found themselves stuck in the vicious cycle of accessibility and low difficulty for years now, and we're nowhere close to being done with this plague. Just look at the answers of this thread, or just go visit WoW forums and you'll get the same answers from the players "The game has to be easy because I don't want to waste time to get where/what I want". MMOs are not about the journey anymore, they're about reaching the goal as fast as possible
Eh, "sprint to the cap because The Game Only Starts At Endgame™" is the battle cry of the uber-pro leaderboard raider. The "filthy casual" is actually there for the journey, but not necessarily to fight their way through a wall of l33tness to travel it. And if that "rush to endgame" thing has spread too much to "teh bads", it's the uber-pros' fault for repeating that stupid catchphrase so much.
Also, MMOs have been going for more "accessibility" (for over a decade now) also because - they need players. They need LOTS of players. And they have to compete against all the other (ever multiplying) MMOs to get them. The fraction of the overall videogaming playerbase who were actually in to that whole painful-grind/required-grouping "classic" Everquest thing? Not remotely enough to fill all the seats the MMO companies need filled.
So, yeah. Damn straight they're making their games - at least the first layers, overworld/questing & maybe basic dungeons - as "accessible" as possible. For all that they fill the forums with their awesomeness, there's not enough h4rdc0r3 d00ds to make up the population numbers all these MMOs need/want.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on May 4, 2020 2:41PM3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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Spillage on aisle 3!
I think more options is better, even if I'm happy with nuke-fest, doesn't invalid the requirement of other long term players for challenge, or new comers who want similar.
I didn't saw that any of creator or supporter of this threads wanted "challenge". If person wants challenge, he will always go to modes where it is most socially rewarding - i.e. PVP, PVE organized raids or other games etc. This "challenge" was invented as a counter-argument to optional veteran instance/slider just because mere existence of such mode/slider somehow causes frustration to casuals.
Nobody is looking for Dark souls in ESO, people just want typical action-RPG experience on difficulty comparable to veteran group content or let's say VMA. Experience where your actions matter, where your build matter. And not a speedrun fest, where you want to grab what you need in overland ASAP and teleport back to Vivec/capitals/Belkarth just to avoid falling asleep. If you are waiting in queue, in the city you at least can make writs, get lulz from zone chat or observe duels.0 -
Aleinzzs✭✭✭Way I see it, you're ignoring the mmo endgame content, and just playing Skyrim with your buddy. You Want challenges, go do vet dungeons, trials etc. You wanna play Skyrim with your friend, keep running around and questing.1
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mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
I didn't saw that any of creator or supporter of this threads wanted "challenge". If person wants challenge, he will always go to modes where it is most socially rewarding - i.e. PVP, PVE organized raids or other games etc. This "challenge" was invented as a counter-argument to optional veteran instance/slider just because mere existence of such mode/slider somehow causes frustration to casuals.
Nobody is looking for Dark souls in ESO, people just want typical action-RPG experience on difficulty comparable to veteran group content or let's say VMA. Experience where your actions matter, where your build matter. And not a speedrun fest, where you want to grab what you need in overland ASAP and teleport back to Vivec/capitals/Belkarth just to avoid falling asleep. If you are waiting in queue, in the city you at least can make writs, get lulz from zone chat or observe duels.
So, if not challenge, what else would make your build matter in overland? Not trying to argue here (I support the addition of the option/preference), I just want to understand where you're coming from, because the way I see it, your build wont matter unless it is challenged. Isn't that the definition of difficulty? To pose a requirement you have to beat/surpass?Edited by mairwen85 on May 4, 2020 3:01PM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
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So, if not challenge, what else would make your build matter in overland? Not trying to argue here (I support the addition of the option/preference), I just want to understand where you're coming from, because the way I see it, your build wont matter unless it is challenged. Isn't that the definition of difficulty? To pose a requirement you have to beat/surpass?
I guess many of us are from different countries, so there might be some misunderstanding on the terms of "challenge". How I see it - increasing overland difficulty to challenging level will allow to complete that content in typical action-RPG style, where you use build+combat experience to overcome challenges provided by game. So this is challenge for the sake of completing lore-rich content and to have fun.
How opponents see this - is like challenge for the sake of challenge, so from their point of view, if we want challenge we may go trying to get Godslayer or just move to another games.Edited by MartiniDaniels on May 4, 2020 3:21PM0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »
I guess many of us are from different countries, so there might be some misunderstanding on the terms of "challenge". How I see it - increasing overland difficulty to challenging level will allow to complete that content in typical action-RPG style, where you use build+combat experience to overcome challenges provided by game. So this is challenge for the sake of completing lore-rich content and to have fun.
How opponents see this - is like challenge for the sake of challenge, so from their point of view, if we want challenge we may go trying to get Godslayer or just move to another games.
Got it. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to make, but I do think that by just scanning through the posts in this thread, the biggest problem is that there is no unified voice wrt how it should be done or what exactly the result should be. One says debuff, the other says reimplement overland with enhanced combat, and yet another says fully instance zones to scaled difficulty as pre 1T; some say no change in rewards, other say rewards should be greater. So however it would be realised some of the people who want this will be pissed about what they get. Leaving it to ZOS to decide, who knows what you'll end up with.
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Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Newsflash: Games aren’t hard anymore.
There are exceptions to this of course but the name of the game (pun intended) is accessibility and replay ability. Game developers want their players to be able to finish a majority of the content to give them a sense of accomplishment which would turn them into a loyal customer and help them sell other games in their library or DLC of the current game they are playing.
I came to ESO from the fallout series. I also played my way through every Final fantasy, dragon quest (dragon warrior), Zelda and Ultima games growing up as a kid. Hell I go all the way back to the King’s Quest series on 5 1/4” floppies. Anyway the basic premise on RPG gaming on any of these platforms was always the same. Over level your character and face roll the content. Now in some of these games it meant grinding and hour or two beating up trash enemies in a weak zone and others it was just through exploring and killing whatever was in your way to get strong, but in each of them the regular overworld enemies and even underworld bosses were nothing more than a minor inconvenience. A couple of end bosses maybe took an additional mechanic or two but nothing you couldn’t OP your way through.
Anyway I wouldn’t expect this game to get harder. Would I like to see it, sure but it’s not going to happen. I’m a console player and outside of games made in the mould of Dark Souls and a a few fast paced shootemup types of games there is little challenge out there. Games that scale content to the player level are easy because mechanics allow you to over level that content and difficulty sliders mostly turn enemies into bullet sponges rather than making anything actually more difficult. A few maybe up the speed or aggressiveness of enemies by 5-10% but that’s still nothing.
So what have we got with ESO. It’s more of the same minus the difficulty slider for the bulk of the content, but that’s OK for a player like me who plays for the content anyway even if some of it overlaps and repeats. Not every storyline is going to be Epic. Some are going to be tedious just for the point of being tedious too. That’s part of the experience though generally the more tedious the better the reward, though none of those rewards are useful in endgame anyway save for maybe a skill point or two. Of course the game has more skill points than you will ever need adding to the power creep somewhat because you can literally take a character with a toolkit of interchangeable skills the power through almost any situation regardless of class/equipment/level provided you actually earned the points.
And there is also CP. CP is OP for everything except endgame content.
And then there is the race to endgame. Power leveling is just too easy in this game. The progression to 50 is too fast and needs to be throttled. The only levels that get help back are the high CP grinds. Leveling isn’t even hard. And equipment levels mean even less. I’m not even sure why any equipment under 50 even needs a level. Should have gear and CP gear. CP should have a 4-5 tiers max but anything under 50 should all be the same. Maybe the quality unlocks from 1-50. Like 1-10 white gear only, 11-20 green, 21-30 blue, etc. I mean you can still kill everything overland with green easily but keeps a new player from having his friend craft a purple sword they can melt overland with at level 4.
Anyway all that to say my original point. Games just aren’t hard anymore. It’s been that way for a long time. So sit back and enjoy the game for what it is.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Anyway all that to say my original point. Games just aren’t hard anymore.
This gave me a thought - a lot of the original legendarily-hard games were either arcade games or console ones patterned after arcade games.
And why were arcade games hard?
Microtransactions and pay-to-win
Arcade games wanted to keep your playtime on one quarter low. So that either somone else got a chance to pay, or so that you added a quarter for another continue. $0.25 is a pretty "micro" transaction, and if you paid for enough Continues you eventually win whatever game you were playing.
(flashbacks to little kids going to their parents to beg for another quarter/dollar/advance on their allowance...)
Heck, there's even more mobile game parallels: Fighting games? Those are pvp games that encourage you to throw more money at it in order to beat that guy who just stomped you. Sounds like all those mobile pvp games, don't it? And remember arcades that had their own tokens to play for games? So you had to put real cash into the change machine in order to get them? And if you did $10 or $20 at a time, you got bonus tokens? Gee, that sounds totally like the standard "online cash shop currency" model.
And arcades also had those random-toy-in-a-capsule machines, and the Crane Games that taunted you with being unable to get the Cool Prize you actually wanted. (lockboxes)
Huh, go figure. All the "best" aspects of mobile & f2p gaming, existed in the 1980's in video arcades. Gaming today sucks! We need to go back to the Good Old Days, when everything was better!
Edited by Kiralyn2000 on May 4, 2020 4:45PM3 -
Alendrin✭✭✭I'm the OP and to answer some questions:
Are trials for solo players?
Do veteran dungeons need full groups?
I'm very interested in playing content that is doable for 2 people. Basically hoping for content that isn't too easy for 2 people but also is impossible without more than 2 people.
Overland content is too easy but it is for all players and won't change. Thats really a small part of the game though.
Try 2 manning the 4 person dungeons. I have soloed normal and even some vet four man content.0 -
Bam_Bam✭✭✭✭✭
✭no one knows, actually. There are many opinions why overland so easy, but no official statement. Some players told like "ZOS want this, ZOS want that" but no web link to proof it.
The first few months, overland was NOT easy and the different zones were meant for specific levels. A lot of people found it really tough going, especially as it wasn't easy to find gold or items and many delve bosses were very very difficult (Doshia in beta and the first year is a great example).
Many people kicked off about this here on the forums so the devs toned it right down and made it more accessible for people. And when they changed it so that areas scaled to your level, it really helped people to explore the world - but they maybe toned it down a wee bit too much?
I think it's a great thing, especially for new players.
Joined January 2014
PC EU - PvE & BGs & PvP (Vivec)
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Bam Bam Bara0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
This gave me a thought - a lot of the original legendarily-hard games were either arcade games or console ones patterned after arcade games.
And why were arcade games hard?
Microtransactions and pay-to-win
Arcade games wanted to keep your playtime on one quarter low. So that either somone else got a chance to pay, or so that you added a quarter for another continue. $0.25 is a pretty "micro" transaction, and if you paid for enough Continues you eventually win whatever game you were playing.
(flashbacks to little kids going to their parents to beg for another quarter/dollar/advance on their allowance...)
Heck, there's even more mobile game parallels: Fighting games? Those are pvp games that encourage you to throw more money at it in order to beat that guy who just stomped you. Sounds like all those mobile pvp games, don't it? And remember arcades that had their own tokens to play for games? So you had to put real cash into the change machine in order to get them? And if you did $10 or $20 at a time, you got bonus tokens? Gee, that sounds totally like the standard "online cash shop currency" model.
And arcades also had those random-toy-in-a-capsule machines, and the Crane Games that taunted you with being unable to get the Cool Prize you actually wanted. (lockboxes)
Huh, go figure. All the "best" aspects of mobile & f2p gaming, existed in the 1980's in video arcades. Gaming today sucks! We need to go back to the Good Old Days, when everything was better!
Somehow 25 cents in 1989 has turned into $5 for Mose games these days though the arcades its now 50 cents to a dollar per play though the new style arcades with preloaded cards it would be interesting to see the value versus points used. Never though to do that comparison. Still I’m happy there are a few old school arcades around and even one here that still takes tokens. It’s nice for the nostalgia but never thought I was getting programmed for micro transactions since my days pumping quarters into golden axe to continue. That was a harder Action RPG than anything on the market these days but technically you could finish the game for a quarter if you were really good!0