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The true history of Cyrodiil's server problems and hope for the future.

  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ITT Small Scale PvPer trying to convince the forum goers that AoE caps ruined PvP.

    The mass exodus of the tens of thousands of pvpers happened within a couple months of release, before the performance degradation began, and the reason they left were due to AoE caps resulting in ball zergs everywhere. That part really isnt up for debate.

    You have sources for how many PvPers left? I bet you dont. So yeah, its definitely debatable.

    A absolutely massive amount. Servers completely emptied out over the course of a patch. This is back when there were many filled PVP servers.

    Here is a source directly related. What I don't understand is how you can be so obstinate over this claim. "I bet you dont." Why are you betting against it? You really dont believe people didn't want to play in an environment where they couldnt hit more than 6 people at a time while they are being overrun by 30+? Drop an AOE stun and it hits 6 as 24 run right past you. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

    Servers always clear out after a game launches and players realize its not going to be what they wanted. Thats not news in the MMO genre. Trying to paint that exodus as if AoE caps was the sole reason or the deciding factor in why those players left is being misleading and typical of yourself and those that continue to bring up AoE caps. Youre a pretty well known 1vXer that has gone on plenty of rants about how you cant AoE down hoardes of players in the past. This isnt about making the game better and reviving PvP. Its always has and always will be about you wanting to be all powerful in an online environment. You could care less about fairplay or balance. So excuse me if I shrug off the opinions of someone that has a monetary interest in all of this.

    I dont have monetary interest in this, and Fengrush is 100% correct.

    I guess that settles it. Wait, it really doesnt. We have AoE caps in this game, thats not changing. So keep wailing about how you cant 1v30/50/100 players. Im certain the Developers are going to reverse course on that topic 6 years into the games development.

    The irony...

    No, we do not have AoE caps in this game any more. They were removed a couple years ago, which any actual Cyrodiil player would know. They were unfortunately removed too late to save it, since over 90% of the players had already left, and thus the servers resources were reallocated to elsewhere.

    Where is the proof of these numbers?
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
    Options
  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    worrallj wrote: »
    I'm also curious about the source. Very interesting if true, but it's so common to hear clueless people confidently explain technical details about how mmo server performance works.

    Also curious where all these skilled pvpers went- not too many games out there offer a similar experience which is part of the reason I think they can afford to slack a bit on performance.

    As far as knowledge of technical details, I personally hosted and administrated a daoc freeshard with a fairly large population for quite a while, with instant50, perma full buffs, character rp transfers, capture the flag, ingame hourly pvp and bg map rotation voting, etc. My knowledge of server architecture, xml database management, C++, etc as well as extensive experience exploiting mmo vulnerabilities for 23 years, should suffice, but I understand if it does not in your view.

    Nowhere, they didnt go to any other game, as there is no alternative anymore, they simply left. PvP guilds that had been together for years/decades scattered to the winds, on a break waiting for the next decent pvp to show up, yet none showed up.

    I also wouldnt call it simply “slacking a bit on performance” when 20 players cant fight in the same place anymore without desyncs and abilities not firing.
    Options
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    worrallj wrote: »
    I'm also curious about the source. Very interesting if true, but it's so common to hear clueless people confidently explain technical details about how mmo server performance works.

    Also curious where all these skilled pvpers went- not too many games out there offer a similar experience which is part of the reason I think they can afford to slack a bit on performance.

    As far as knowledge of technical details, I personally hosted and administrated a daoc freeshard with a fairly large population for quite a while, with instant50, perma full buffs, character rp transfers, capture the flag, ingame hourly pvp and bg map rotation voting, etc. My knowledge of server architecture, xml database management, C++, etc as well as extensive experience exploiting mmo vulnerabilities for 23 years, should suffice, but I understand if it does not in your view.

    Nowhere, they didnt go to any other game, as there is no alternative anymore, they simply left. PvP guilds that had been together for years/decades scattered to the winds, on a break waiting for the next decent pvp to show up, yet none showed up.

    I also wouldnt call it simply “slacking a bit on performance” when 20 players cant fight in the same place anymore without desyncs and abilities not firing.

    You just admitted to cheating. That explains a lot.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
    Options
  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    worrallj wrote: »
    I'm also curious about the source. Very interesting if true, but it's so common to hear clueless people confidently explain technical details about how mmo server performance works.

    Also curious where all these skilled pvpers went- not too many games out there offer a similar experience which is part of the reason I think they can afford to slack a bit on performance.

    As far as knowledge of technical details, I personally hosted and administrated a daoc freeshard with a fairly large population for quite a while, with instant50, perma full buffs, character rp transfers, capture the flag, ingame hourly pvp and bg map rotation voting, etc. My knowledge of server architecture, xml database management, C++, etc as well as extensive experience exploiting mmo vulnerabilities for 23 years, should suffice, but I understand if it does not in your view.

    Nowhere, they didnt go to any other game, as there is no alternative anymore, they simply left. PvP guilds that had been together for years/decades scattered to the winds, on a break waiting for the next decent pvp to show up, yet none showed up.

    I also wouldnt call it simply “slacking a bit on performance” when 20 players cant fight in the same place anymore without desyncs and abilities not firing.

    You just admitted to cheating. That explains a lot.

    I did not. I have never cheated in eso and in fact the last time I hacked an mmo was 1998.
    Options
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    worrallj wrote: »
    I'm also curious about the source. Very interesting if true, but it's so common to hear clueless people confidently explain technical details about how mmo server performance works.

    Also curious where all these skilled pvpers went- not too many games out there offer a similar experience which is part of the reason I think they can afford to slack a bit on performance.

    As far as knowledge of technical details, I personally hosted and administrated a daoc freeshard with a fairly large population for quite a while, with instant50, perma full buffs, character rp transfers, capture the flag, ingame hourly pvp and bg map rotation voting, etc. My knowledge of server architecture, xml database management, C++, etc as well as extensive experience exploiting mmo vulnerabilities for 23 years, should suffice, but I understand if it does not in your view.

    Nowhere, they didnt go to any other game, as there is no alternative anymore, they simply left. PvP guilds that had been together for years/decades scattered to the winds, on a break waiting for the next decent pvp to show up, yet none showed up.

    I also wouldnt call it simply “slacking a bit on performance” when 20 players cant fight in the same place anymore without desyncs and abilities not firing.

    You just admitted to cheating. That explains a lot.

    I did not. I have never cheated in eso and in fact the last time I hacked an mmo was 1998.

    I have never cheated.

    You said you exploit mmo vulnerabilities... and that is cheating.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
    Options
  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lowbei wrote: »
    [
    Both VD and Magika Det literally only work on zergballs. Furthermore, zergballs are the only people I have ever seen be upset by these. If you have any reason for wanting them removed, other than because they wiped your zergball, I would love to hear it.

    One I got just shy of 100K PVP kills. Two I almost never, ever run in a group. But I do stay primarily in the inner ring. I tend to be right in the middle of whatever is hotest. "Zergballs" as you call them, as opposed shall I say, 4-man Cheese Balls which seems to be your preferred play style as near as I can determine, get annoyed precisely because it is 100% Mozzarella Cheese play that has nothing to do with skill or tactical group engagement.

    Sooo much has changed across the board that there is actually some true tactical, skilled play that is and can be used against large ball groups running around spamming Ultis. Ulti spamming zergballs running are still way too annoying, BUT we don't need to return to the era of Cheese Balls, which never "skilled" play, to deal with the situation of Zergballs. Their utility time has passed, remove them.

    I guess a case could be made for retaining them as they are still a viable, yet effective option for more casual players given the simplicity of play, however, these days it is far too often to see a great back and forth between two sides utterly ruined by VD.

    You failed to give any reason for wanting them removed other than that they work as intended to wipe zergballs.
    Options
  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
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    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ITT Small Scale PvPer trying to convince the forum goers that AoE caps ruined PvP.

    The mass exodus of the tens of thousands of pvpers happened within a couple months of release, before the performance degradation began, and the reason they left were due to AoE caps resulting in ball zergs everywhere. That part really isnt up for debate.

    You have sources for how many PvPers left? I bet you dont. So yeah, its definitely debatable.

    A absolutely massive amount. Servers completely emptied out over the course of a patch. This is back when there were many filled PVP servers.

    Here is a source directly related. What I don't understand is how you can be so obstinate over this claim. "I bet you dont." Why are you betting against it? You really dont believe people didn't want to play in an environment where they couldnt hit more than 6 people at a time while they are being overrun by 30+? Drop an AOE stun and it hits 6 as 24 run right past you. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

    Servers always clear out after a game launches and players realize its not going to be what they wanted. Thats not news in the MMO genre. Trying to paint that exodus as if AoE caps was the sole reason or the deciding factor in why those players left is being misleading and typical of yourself and those that continue to bring up AoE caps. Youre a pretty well known 1vXer that has gone on plenty of rants about how you cant AoE down hoardes of players in the past. This isnt about making the game better and reviving PvP. Its always has and always will be about you wanting to be all powerful in an online environment. You could care less about fairplay or balance. So excuse me if I shrug off the opinions of someone that has a monetary interest in all of this.

    I dont have monetary interest in this, and Fengrush is 100% correct.

    I guess that settles it. Wait, it really doesnt. We have AoE caps in this game, thats not changing. So keep wailing about how you cant 1v30/50/100 players. Im certain the Developers are going to reverse course on that topic 6 years into the games development.

    The irony...

    No, we do not have AoE caps in this game any more. They were removed a couple years ago, which any actual Cyrodiil player would know. They were unfortunately removed too late to save it, since over 90% of the players had already left, and thus the servers resources were reallocated to elsewhere.

    Where is the proof of these numbers?

    There were tens of thousands of pvp players who came here for launch, and zos boasted this themselves. If you think theres more than 1000 total cyrodiil players left in eso, then I would love to know where they are.
    Edited by Lowbei on March 31, 2020 1:27AM
    Options
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ITT Small Scale PvPer trying to convince the forum goers that AoE caps ruined PvP.

    The mass exodus of the tens of thousands of pvpers happened within a couple months of release, before the performance degradation began, and the reason they left were due to AoE caps resulting in ball zergs everywhere. That part really isnt up for debate.

    You have sources for how many PvPers left? I bet you dont. So yeah, its definitely debatable.

    A absolutely massive amount. Servers completely emptied out over the course of a patch. This is back when there were many filled PVP servers.

    Here is a source directly related. What I don't understand is how you can be so obstinate over this claim. "I bet you dont." Why are you betting against it? You really dont believe people didn't want to play in an environment where they couldnt hit more than 6 people at a time while they are being overrun by 30+? Drop an AOE stun and it hits 6 as 24 run right past you. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

    Servers always clear out after a game launches and players realize its not going to be what they wanted. Thats not news in the MMO genre. Trying to paint that exodus as if AoE caps was the sole reason or the deciding factor in why those players left is being misleading and typical of yourself and those that continue to bring up AoE caps. Youre a pretty well known 1vXer that has gone on plenty of rants about how you cant AoE down hoardes of players in the past. This isnt about making the game better and reviving PvP. Its always has and always will be about you wanting to be all powerful in an online environment. You could care less about fairplay or balance. So excuse me if I shrug off the opinions of someone that has a monetary interest in all of this.

    I dont have monetary interest in this, and Fengrush is 100% correct.

    I guess that settles it. Wait, it really doesnt. We have AoE caps in this game, thats not changing. So keep wailing about how you cant 1v30/50/100 players. Im certain the Developers are going to reverse course on that topic 6 years into the games development.

    The irony...

    No, we do not have AoE caps in this game any more. They were removed a couple years ago, which any actual Cyrodiil player would know. They were unfortunately removed too late to save it, since over 90% of the players had already left, and thus the servers resources were reallocated to elsewhere.

    Where is the proof of these numbers?

    There were tens of thousands of pvp players who came here for launch, and zos boasted this themselves. If you think theres more than 1000 total cyrodiil players left in eso, then I would love to know where they are.

    You are the one tossing around numbers, not me. I was just asking for solid proof of these numbers.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
    Options
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Have your 50th Insightful.

    I may harp on PvP. A lot....most of the time. But I do WANT to enjoy it, I have had moment of genuine fun in Cyrodiil before. Yes I'm much more interested in PvE. Greymoor is taking all my anticipation, but I'd also enjoy a smooth, playable Cyrodiil that also gave me the capability to fight on more or less equal terms with everyone, not just builds/skills similar or less to my own. It's why I have well over 1,000 hours into Planetside 2, there is no power gap in gear. A brand new player has a very good chance against a max rank veteran simply because all weapons share the same damage models.
    CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
    Options
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    ✭✭✭
    Kalik_Gold wrote: »
    What PvP game did these mass exodus PvP MMO players go to?

    Quit MMOs in general. I took a long break before trying out ESO, more are likely the same. There are lots of good pvp genres if that’s your thing.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
    Options
  • Universe
    Universe
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ItsMeToo wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ITT Small Scale PvPer trying to convince the forum goers that AoE caps ruined PvP.

    The mass exodus of the tens of thousands of pvpers happened within a couple months of release, before the performance degradation began, and the reason they left were due to AoE caps resulting in ball zergs everywhere. That part really isnt up for debate.

    You have sources for how many PvPers left? I bet you dont. So yeah, its definitely debatable.

    A absolutely massive amount. Servers completely emptied out over the course of a patch. This is back when there were many filled PVP servers.

    Here is a source directly related. What I don't understand is how you can be so obstinate over this claim. "I bet you dont." Why are you betting against it? You really dont believe people didn't want to play in an environment where they couldnt hit more than 6 people at a time while they are being overrun by 30+? Drop an AOE stun and it hits 6 as 24 run right past you. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

    Servers always clear out after a game launches and players realize its not going to be what they wanted. Thats not news in the MMO genre. Trying to paint that exodus as if AoE caps was the sole reason or the deciding factor in why those players left is being misleading and typical of yourself and those that continue to bring up AoE caps. Youre a pretty well known 1vXer that has gone on plenty of rants about how you cant AoE down hoardes of players in the past. This isnt about making the game better and reviving PvP. Its always has and always will be about you wanting to be all powerful in an online environment. You could care less about fairplay or balance. So excuse me if I shrug off the opinions of someone that has a monetary interest in all of this.

    I dont have monetary interest in this, and Fengrush is 100% correct.

    I guess that settles it. Wait, it really doesnt. We have AoE caps in this game, thats not changing. So keep wailing about how you cant 1v30/50/100 players. Im certain the Developers are going to reverse course on that topic 6 years into the games development.

    The irony...

    No, we do not have AoE caps in this game any more. They were removed a couple years ago, which any actual Cyrodiil player would know. They were unfortunately removed too late to save it, since over 90% of the players had already left, and thus the servers resources were reallocated to elsewhere.

    Where is the proof of these numbers?

    There were tens of thousands of pvp players who came here for launch, and zos boasted this themselves. If you think theres more than 1000 total cyrodiil players left in eso, then I would love to know where they are.

    Indeed.
    The pvp population is very small.
    Though it is more than 1,000.

    In total there are only 4 pvp campaigns:
    Blackreach: 30 day CP-enabled, Non-Alliance Locked
    Ravenwatch: 30 day No CP, Non-Alliance Locked
    Gray Host: 30 day CP-enabled, Alliance Locked
    Icereach: 10-49 Campaign

    Each of those campaigns can hold up to 450 players at the same time from all alliances(that is if ZOS didn't change the 150 players per each alliance population cap).
    Speaking of PC EU server, the campaigns are usually on average low-medium population and are only full in prime time(around 18:00-21:00 UTC).
    For a game as large as ESO I would expect dozens or even a hundred+ of different campaigns of 450 players each for only PVP on the server, but only 4 are enough for the population.
    That speak volumes, there are barely any PVP players left.
    Edited by Universe on March 31, 2020 2:07AM
    Some videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
    PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
    Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
    PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
    Started playing ESO in beta & early access
    User_ID: Daedric_Prince
    Options
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Soul Shriven
    Hello everyone,

    With some posts needing to be removed, we're going to go ahead and post an in-thread reminder to keep the Forum Rules in mind and to avoid thread derailment.

    Thank you for understanding.
    Options
    Staff Post
  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Universe wrote: »
    Each of those campaigns can hold up to 450 players at the same time from all alliances(that is if ZOS didn't change the 150 players per each alliance population cap).
    Speaking of PC EU server, the campaigns are usually on average low-medium population and are only full in prime time(around 18:00-21:00 UTC).
    For a game as large as ESO I would expect dozens or even a hundred+ of different campaigns of 450 players each for only PVP on the server, but only 4 are enough for the population.
    That speak volumes, there are barely any PVP players left.

    Honestly, I would be surprised if it is still 450, as with even 20 in one spot right now the server starts failing to register abilities and bar swaps, the ping jumps up over 400, and the health desyncs start.
    They told us the first time they dropped the caps, before they realized that this looked bad, so they didnt tell us the next times.
    Edited by Lowbei on March 31, 2020 7:39AM
    Options
  • rfennell_ESO
    rfennell_ESO
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    ✭✭
    Lowbei wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

    This discussion is not meant to cause drama, bait any responses, or disrupt in any way. It is meant to clear up some misunderstandings and state hope for the future.

    Meanwhile in reality the zergs being "capped" by "small" "skilled" groups was not something that happened.

    The "small" "skilled" group that dominated zergs were always in the 8-12 range of aoe spammers OR were themselves an organized zerg.

    AOE caps were installed to prevent lag due to calculations required.

    The "clear up some misunderstandings" line is funny in that it's not what actually occurred in pvp.

    The pre-AOE cap zerg killers were always an organized group that numbered 8+. It was basically one form of aoe spam or another with a dedicated cleanser/spammer of retreating maneuvers.

    Early pvp also lacked stamina classes altogether. Stamina classes didn't really come into usefulness until maybe vr16 content and then 2.0.

    Also the only "small" "skilled" group that were wiping zergs were vampire DK's that "skillfully" spammed devouring swarm in conjunction with unlimited reflection wings. You literally had to channel resto staves on them with a large group to kill them.

    [Edit to remove bait]
    Edited by [Deleted User] on March 31, 2020 6:33PM
    Options
  • BackStabeth
    BackStabeth
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    Lowbei wrote: »

    Lowbei wrote: »
    This discussion is not meant to cause drama, bait any responses, or disrupt in any way. It is meant to clear up some misunderstandings and state hope for the future.

    If you were looking to definitively clear anything up, that intent would require you to provide a timeline, dates, actual market studies that were done to determine why people played, didn't play, left or abandoned PvP specifically. From what I can see, you included none of that information so really what you have done is presented your own personal view, your opinion and nothing more than strictly that.

    When you state something as being factual, when it's clearly not, you have exposed your intent as being something other than what you have stated here. You cannot clear up misunderstandings if you are not providing anything factual, you are only muddying the waters further with your personal opinions.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    While discussing Cyrodiils performance in guild last night, I found that the majority of players version of history seemed to be unfortunately incorrect, obscured by time and . At this point, fixing Cyrodiil requires a good understanding of how we got here.

    I think you mean to say that your opinion and how you remember things differed from others, so instead of accepting the fact that everyone's memory is affected over time (this is a fact I can provide links if need be or you can easily research it yourself) you, instead, wish to believe that your own memory is more acute and that you have better recalled the events leading up to the present situation in regards to Cryodil.

    We know for a fact that memory is affected over time, this can easily be researched and confirmed.

    We know that talking with others, and those people talking with others, that eventually any information or story will change from person to person, this is a fact and can also be researched easily. If anything, a lack of communication would mean the information would only be affected by what any given individual can recall, and not by hearing the story told differently by others. So in this case, a lack of communication has only helped in not changing the story if that were the case. However, you cannot possibly know that this is in fact the case. You cannot possibly know how many conversations and with whom the same discussion has been had.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    lack of communication

    You have stated this as factual, it's not, it's an incorrect assumption, period. So we can remove these things as being so called problems in your story. I call this a story because that's what it is, and fictional at the very best.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    During development, it was determined that adding PvP would bring in a vast crowd of players from the other side of the market.

    I tried researching your claim here, I could find no information that was every published that anyone determined that adding PvP would bring in a vast crowd of players. If that information exists, I'm fairly certain that it wouldn't be against the forum TOS to provide that information here.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    The most successful PvP game to date, Dark Age of Camelot, which at one point had hundreds of thousands of accounts, was determined to be the model, due to its design around 3 sided realm combat, which could be easily fit into the ESO universe. Members of DAoCs team were brought in to work on it. The design was worked out, and Cyrodiil was chosen as the location, mainly due to its centralized map geography, and being centered around the Imperial City, which would serve as this games Darkness Falls, a pve/pvp location open to only whichever side was winning.

    The marketing campaign to court PvPers was extensive, and worked very well. Tens of thousands of PvP focused players flooded the beta server at launch. During this beta, hundreds of players on screen at the same time fought with very little lag, all skills fired when pressed, bars swapped, no health desyncs, etc.

    This is where I find what you have stated to be absolutely outside the realm of truth. There were latency issues, all you have to do is look at the very earliest posts to realize there were latency issues from day one. People were blaming all sorts of things, according to posts on this very forum, for the lag issues.

    If there are too many people connecting with latency to a megaserver, that affects the megaserver. This can be resolved by ZoS spending more money, providing more strategically geographically placed servers so that connecting to one closer would reduce players latency with the megaserver. Fact is that ZoS is a corporation who's only moral responsibility is making more profit for their shareholders. Fact is that game mechanics, development, all aspects of ESO are governed by profitability and not by anything else. If ZoS were intent on designing PvP in such a way as to make it easier to play, it would take a large investment in labor, hardware and software development.

    The way that the ZoS megaserver deals with connections with too much latency is to disconnect them, or what we call desyncs. These desyncs were happening from day one. This is how it works, when too many people with too much latency connect to the megaserver, it affects how the megaserver serves the world up to everyone. So to combat this, there is a threshold that is met, if you don't meet that threshold, if what you press on your keyboard happens slower that the speed the server is serving that information to all the other clients you get a desync.

    And again, this was happening from day 1. Some of the very first posts ever on this very forum are in regards to the latency issues, the lag, the desyncs. This is not something people are recalling from a memory that may have changed over time, not something people are getting wrong, it's something that was written about at the time it was experienced. Go back and read, you will see where your statements are absolutely incorrect.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    What happened next, was unfortunate.

    Lowbei wrote: »
    During this time period, small skilled groups coming from DAoC and another pvp games, dominated the large zergs, as can be expected. This lead to the usual spam reports of statements like "we had 40 people, how did we lose to 4 people?!?" and "they must be hacking, theres no way..." and "if this isnt changed, me and my massive zerg guild will cancel our subscriptions," etc.

    Actually what was happening is that small groups were using AOE that had no cap, to wipe out zergs. Lets be totally honest about this, people want to win and don't care if they are using tactics to cheese winning. These were not small skilled groups, these were people taking advantage of AOE that had no cap, that's all. They were not specially skilled at anything. And honestly, in real life, small groups can be effective against large groups but numbers almost always win. To create a situation that a small group of players can take advantage of to kill large numbers of players is not realistic at all, and if we continue to be honest the large groups of players would be the ones to leave because of unfair game mechanics. Sorry, but that's the truth of it.

    Lowbei wrote: »
    Now a quick history lesson on the subject of zerging.

    DAoC devs were use to the flood of angry reports from zergers dying, and knew to disregard it, because logically you cannot die to 4 players AoE abilities unless you are stacked like a blob and not paying attention. In truth, most of these threats to quit were just salty nonsense, as people hate losing in anything competitive, and would rather blame the system itself than their own failures. In DAoC, the answer given to them, and adopted by the good groups, was "spread on incoming" and "pay attention to your surroundings” aka pan your camera. This resulted in a strong pvp community with dozens of groups 8v8ing every night, as well as zergs still roaming with 100+ people. Due to a high skill ceiling, the pvp community was very healthy and lasted many many years.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Fast forward to Warhammer Online. During its beta, zergs were getting dominated by small skilled groups, and made the usual demands and threats to quit. Unfortunately, the dev team had changed quite a bit since DAoC, and they were not experienced enough to know to ignore the flood of reports. I can understand it from a customer service reps view (being a non game player) that if the majority demand it change, it should change. Thus, a massive change was wedged into the launch patch notes to say that AoE caps were now enabled, so that you could only hit a few people with your AoE abilities, allowing zergs to win via sheer numbers. Unfortunately, and as expected by me and other experienced PvPers, the result was a mass exodus of all the skilled groups within a month from launch, which left only zergs. With no actual competition going on (zerg v zerg isnt competition, its an unorganized mess), the pvp community died, and thus the game died quickly.

    The exact same thing happened in Guild Wars 2, so I wont go into detail there.

    What I read in this is:

    Experienced players or what you called skilled, will engage in PvP so long as they can be effective against overwhelming numbers by using AOE skills that are not capped. That once those AOE skills are capped, once these so called skilled players can no longer press a button and kill large numbers of players in large groups they abandon the game.

    These people just sound like button pushers to me. Not skilled at all, how much skill does it take to use an AOE skill, you push a button at the right time and done. It's certainly doesn't take any real talent, or skill and certainly not highly skilled PvP players. If we are being honest and reasonable, whenever 4 player groups are able to wipe out large zergs there is a problem. And here is what you are truly missing. The fact that there were game mechanics that made it so easy for button pushers to kill other players caused the very zergs you are demeaning. When people use a game mechanic that is not balanced, or cheat, other people will respond as best they can. You are right in stating people want to win and feel bad when they lose, so that desire to win will cause people to behave in ways they normally would not. Like people taking unnfair advantage of a game mechanic that then later has to be capped so they stop doing so.

    Those people you are calling skilled players, they left because of an AOE cap, frankly I see them as spoiled brats. Who leaves a game where they try to make it more balanced so that 4 people cannot kill large groups of other people? Who does that but a child throwing a tiny fisted tantrum? If they were truly, highly skilled PvP players, then capping AOE skills would never have mattered as much as it did. Lets again be honest here, the one thing these people you called skilled were good at was capped, so they got salty, THEY GOT SALTY, and rage quit. That is the real problem in what you are describing.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Now back to ESO. During the week before launch, due to the mass reports from zergers dying to skilled small groups, an internal discussion was had on the subject, resulting in somehow the same quick decision being made, to add AoE caps to the launch build.

    How are you privy to any of this information? It was being discussed on these forums prior to the official launch by people playing the game. It wasn't internal at all, it was openly discussed.

    I cannot even begin to fathom how anyone can possibly think that not having AoE caps is a good thing. Giving anyone a massive advantage over large groups is just way outside the realm of reality. It's not a fair mechanic at all, and rightly, it was nerfed to something more reasonable.

    Fighting in zergs takes far more skill than pressing a button, and launching an AoE at a group of players. It takes far more. It's actually very interesting, the tactics in a zerg are so vastly different than the tactics in 1v1 PvP or small groups vs small groups. They all have their place.

    And frankly, if you are a small group you should be doing things a small tactical group should do, not engaging large zergs and killing all of them, I mean come on. That doesn't happen in the real world. And what, if a small group of people can't burn down huge zergs, those people are going to get salty and rage quit?

    Good, they shouldn't be playing anyway, these are the same people who if they do stay, figure out a way to cheat so they can continue killing large zergs in small groups.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    it was wedged into the patch notes claiming it had always been there, despite that being both incorrect and clearly a very strange thing to say in patch notes. Patch notes are to update you to changes, not to say "this is how this works FYI" for no apparent reason. This had two major consequences. One being the mass exodus of the skilled groups for obvious reasons, and the introduction of blob groups. In a blob zerg, due to the AoE cap, you could be content to be nearly unkillable, since any AoE would likely hit a different 6 people each time due to movement. The combination of a loss of skilled smallman groups, and introduction of blob zergs, drove away the majority of the tens of thousands of PvP only players who came to play ESO.

    The Templar Nova ultimate was capped since launch

    The Shackles Synergy you got off battle standard was capped since launch

    Grand Healing/Healing Ritual/Blessing of Protection have been capped since launch

    A better explanation can be found here, explaining the 1.1 patch notes by ZoS themselves

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/89420/area-of-effect-abilities-maximum-target-cap-clarification/p1

    All AoE effect abilities in ESO have a max target limit of six, and always have. The exceptions to this are Alliance War-specific abilities, and several others, which are specifically noted (in tooltips) as having a higher or lower limit. So, if an AoE’s ability tooltip does not list it as having a special number (greater than or less than 6) of targets, it was designed to affect 6 targets, maximum.

    The following abilities had a higher max limit than six, and have been fixed to be in-line with all other area-of-effect abilities:

    Consuming Darkness (Nightblade)
    Dragonknight Standard (Dragonknight)
    Negate Magic (Sorcerer)
    Scalding Rune (Fire Rune Morph - Mages Guild)
    Soul Shatter (Soul Magic)

    These were things that were not intended, and fixed in patch 1.1. We are talking about one of the very first patches something was fixed that was not intended to function in the way it was being used. In other words, your "small skilled groups of PvP players" were taking advantage of a game mechanic that was not intended, was removed, they got salty and rage quit.

    Fact is, when people were using the "minimalistic" UI it caused people to be ignorant about the games mechanics. They assumed their AoE is uncapped and then if mobs dont take damage you simply assume they were out of range or something else. When it was announced that the skills who's AoE was intended to be capped, and were not, were being patched and fixed people just assumed that it was everything being capped even if it was capped before. If people actually read the patch notes they would have realized that what they were freaking out about, at the time, was not true at all.

    And those are the facts!
    Lowbei wrote: »
    The massive loss of the pvp crowd, resulted in a removal of resources from the cyrodiil servers, which combined with blob zergs, caused massive server calculation issues. The movement of dozens of players tight together spamming AoE abilities was/is tough on the server, as it has to determine which players receive the effects of AoE abilities (again limited to 6) on constantly moving blobs based on the individuals x y z coordinates, not to mention the lighting effects involved as well. This caused constant server crashes and performance loss to all involved, resulting in even further exodus of pvp players.

    Having an AoE cap actually saves the megaserver from excessive mathmatical solutions. The real issue is in people connecting that have latency issues, and the megaserver waiting for those instructions before computing the math and serving the results. It wasn't the server crashing, it was people getting dysnc. It's ZoS not having hardware in place that can handle the latency of people connecting, and those with latency doing the connecting tha tis the issue. So much of this can be fixed if ZoS just invested more in infrastructure, but that would take a huge exenditure on their part which seems they are not willing to do.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    The unfortunate solution to all this, was to first lower the population caps from the thousands boasted before launch to much lower numbers, to make the population bars look higher. Then to address the players, by stating the creation of a new spell, magika detonation, which would by design, only destroy zergs. The concept of removing AoE caps, which had been repeatedly stated over and over to be the only real solution, was once again pushed into the light by the few skilled PvP groups left, because magika detonation wouldnt work unless AoE caps were removed as well. Unfortunately, once again the zergers immediately began their angry campaign against the changes, and once again due to sheer numbers of them, magika detonation was nerfed to increase only 25% per player, up to a cap of 250%. This meant zero change to blob groups, and the server instabilities continued. Eventually, after the second major population cap drop (now only a few hundred players) to make the bars look populated again, somebody got the message that AoE caps were the cause of Cyrodiils problems. The statement was made that they may be removed, once again followed by the zergers angry demands and threats against what would destroy their only playstyle (stack on crown and spam 11121), thus AoE caps were only nerfed, to where now the first 6 players take full damage, then 6 more take 50%, then 25% for the next 6, etc... Thus the blobbings continued, because that was meaningless to a 24+ player blob group.

    I could take this line by line and argue points but it's far more simply to just say that it's become obvious to me, that you do not like zergs that you have something against them. It's also obvious that you don't want zergs to go away because that would mean your AoE skills would then be useless and you wouldn't be able to kill large numbers of people if there were no AoE cap. It's obvious to me you want to kill large numbers of playes, all at the smae time by spamming an AoE skill, and not through any skilled PvP except maybe sneaking up behind a large zerg and spamming an AoE while they are not aware.

    You know what would really tick off all your skilled PvP buddies? If they were forced to always only engage other groups who had equal numbers of people, of equal skill, gear and CP. It would really *** them off if they could only engage with other players who were equal in every way. DO you know how I know this? Because all you have talked about is the ability of a few players being able to spam AoE skills to kill large numbers of players in zergs. That's what this entire post is about.

    Lowbei wrote: »
    The end result. Finally, many years too late, the decision was made to remove AoE caps completely. Most of these blob groups then either left the game, or started playing smaller groups to avoid embarrassment at losing to 4 people.

    So what you are saying, exactly what you are saying is that prior to the AoE caps being lifted, these so called skilled players could not engage zergs because they would lose, and that once the AoE caps were lifted, which is the only change you mention by the way, these same 4 man groups were able to then engage zergs and win?

    Do you not understand what this one and only difference means? These so called skilled players you speak about are not skilled unless they are able to spam an AoE that affects everyone in a zerg. That's not a skilled player, that's a button pusher. The only thing that person has done is trained up their character to a high enough level to effectively use an AoE by pushing a button. That's it. Literally no skill involved.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    Cyrodiil finally had the chance to be playable. Unfortunately, due to most of the server resources having been moved away from Cyrodiil in the years prior, it was now unplayable with 20+ people in one area at once, with massive health desyncs, skills and bar swaps not happening, nobody taking damage, and ping jumping around between 300 and 999+. The loss of both the skilled groups and the majority of zergers, lead to the tiny Cyrodiil population we have now, with not even enough players to fill two campaigns.

    If I am in a small 4 man group, I do not expect to be handed any ability by ZoS that allows me to kill large groups of zergs. You seem to totally disregard that much of zergs are made up of people who are max CP and far more skilled than your 4 man groups are. They are made up of people who want to level their PvP skill lines for PVE and don't want to farmed by small groups made up of people all spamming AoE skills. People leave because of only a few reasons. The way they used to be successful was removed, and they no longer can be, meaning AoE skills are nerfed, so button pushers leave, or AoE skills are uncapped and people leave, or ZoS cannot effectively handle connections that have latency, so the gameplay is negatively affects and people leave.

    And people leave for many, many other reasons. I engaged in PvP in EVE Online since it was beta, after all that time I left because the atmosphere became too toxic. Many people in ESO leave because people are toxic, the first time they are tea bagged, the first time someone whispers then and abuses them in chat, the first time an unfar mechanic is used. People leave when they are just learning because someone waitied for them where they get their quests overland, and stealth killed them. People leave when they are killed not engaging in PvP just running overland to their nexxt quest and are killed for no reason than just to be killed. People leave when the game mechanics favor someone with far less skill and makes it easy to kill others, people leave when they know others are cheating because they don't want to do the same to keep up.

    People leave

    It has happened with every MMO since the first ones. People eventually leave, that's a fact. They pile in when it's new, they eventually get bored and move on to the next new PvP MMO. It's just simply the way things are.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    So here we are today. The big reason for this thread, is because going forward, a correct analysis of what happened is important. Its not that the MMO market consists of only 1-2% pvp players now, its that they all left for good reason, because no games are offering them a competitive environment with servers that can handle a fight.

    It seems that most people who engage in PvP are not looking for anything competitive, they are looking to be winners only. They want to win against large groups by using unfair advantages either through game mechanics not intended, or outright cheating, exploits, etc. If they cannot easily win, they flee the game and look for something else. The ones who stay, the ones who are looking for a real challenge would welcome things being mroe difficult, not leave when it becomes more difficult to kill other players. Lets be honest once again, people leave because they win less, they get salty about it and rage quit. They don't leave because it's not a challenge, they leave when it becomes a challenge.

    And I'm sorry, 4 man groups should never be able to wipe out 24 man groups, I don't care how skilled or not the 24 man group is. That is just stupid.
    Lowbei wrote: »
    My conclusion, and the big takeaway here, is that Cyrodiil CAN be popular. It was hindered from its potential for so long that it lost its following, but the system itself is still viable. As stated by numerous players, during PvP events you see spikes of server performance that are unseen the rest of the year, which are clearly a resource shift, which then disappears at the end of the event. If ZOS adds resources (a lot of resources) and creates a new marketing campaign to announce this, they will bring in a massive influx of thousands of new and old players, excited to see Cyrodiil at the potential they saw in beta. These players are still out there, waiting for any MMO with a good combat system to make the correct environment available.

    My own opinion is that people get tired of the toxic environment. They get tired of unfair advantages. They get tired of being farmed when new and just trying to learn. They get tired of the issues related to ZoS not investing enough in the infrastructure. AND a large number of people leave when the way they were able to kill and win more often is changed and they no longer can win as often.

    If people were looking for an honest challenge then they would welcome AoE caps. They would welcome losing more often than winning. They would welcome overwhelming odds, but they do not. And you know why? It's really simple, people want to win no matter what the cost to the game, no matter how unfair to other players, no matter if it's cheating. ZoS has to find some kind of balance between how many people lose and how many people win to retain the most people as possible and that's the real trick. How do you make enough people okay losing so that you can keep the largest number of people winning so you can retain those players?

    Well, you hold events so those that want to win have new fodder to kill and feel good winning. That's where we are currently at. And having events not too often, but not too far apart so those people leave is another bit to that equation.

    And that's what we see taking place. ZoS is not investing in the infrastructure to make the performance issues better, they are investing in marketing and holding events so that there are enough new people flowing into Cryodil for those who want to feel good winning to kill, and just enough so they don't leave.

    Being biased prevents you from understanding things outside your bias. The way the human brain works in regards to bias, is to automatically filter anything that you are bias against, it's our brains way of conserving computing power. This prevents you from writing logically and leaves you only writing about things emotionally. If you were reasoning, logically, you might come to very different conclusions. I would encourage you to try using logical reasoning, to express your opinions as opinions and not facts, to offer your opinions but also opposing views with equal clarity and consideration. If you do this, you might actually help the community, but unless your posts reflect this kind of intellectual investment you are going to only get people who agree with you, or people who are opposed to you, and that only serves to polarize the entire conversation, which you claimed at the start you were not seeking to do, but have done anyway.
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  • BackStabeth
    BackStabeth
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    Not gonna watch any of that.
    Want skilled pvp? Go see Line][Age 2003-2008 and Tera Online 2014.

    Eso combat has 0 skill.

    I totally agree, after PvPing almost exclusively since Ultima Online was beta, coming to ESO and engaging in a little PvP just to get the skill lines, I realized very fast that even at a low CP I can easily engage and be very successful at PvP without any difficulty, or skill.

    You know what it takes to be good at PvP in ESO? Training your character high enough, investing your points in traits that will allow you to PvP, grinding bis gear, learning which skills to use, more or less just building your character to a guide everyone else does and pushing buttons. There is very little real skill involve din ESO PvP. It's evident in the fact that when one single thing is changed, like AoE caps, people leave. People left when AoE was capped, people left when the cap was removed. That is one button push.

    It's also obvious people are not interested in a challenge for the most part, only interested in killing as many people and winning as often as possible and when that is taken away, they leave.
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  • Elo106
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    Urvoth wrote: »
    ryh wrote: »
    No money from PvP = no point to care about PvP.

    What MMO is now worth to play in similar fast paced action combat style with massive battles?

    Where does this false narrative come from? They don’t make PvP content that people could buy anyway, and most regular PvPers buy all the chapters and have ESO Plus. The incorrectly perpetuated myth that PvPers don’t spend money is just straight up wrong. If anything, I’d say it’s the other way around. All you have to do is go mount up on a resource during prime time to see that nearly everyone is running around on apex or radiant apex mounts.

    ^This

    And if you look at streamers (People who get more people playing the game and old players to return) a lot of the big streamers stream pvp...
    Makes no sense to say PvP is such a small part of the community
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  • drkfrontiers
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    Elo106 wrote: »
    Urvoth wrote: »
    ryh wrote: »
    No money from PvP = no point to care about PvP.

    What MMO is now worth to play in similar fast paced action combat style with massive battles?

    Where does this false narrative come from? They don’t make PvP content that people could buy anyway, and most regular PvPers buy all the chapters and have ESO Plus. The incorrectly perpetuated myth that PvPers don’t spend money is just straight up wrong. If anything, I’d say it’s the other way around. All you have to do is go mount up on a resource during prime time to see that nearly everyone is running around on apex or radiant apex mounts.

    ^This

    And if you look at streamers (People who get more people playing the game and old players to return) a lot of the big streamers stream pvp...
    Makes no sense to say PvP is such a small part of the community

    You do realize what a vast number of the PvP population you see on any given day is there to get the needed Skillpoints, and once that has been accomplished they rarely return. Those apex or radiant apex mounts are more than likely the aforementioned group.

    But say you right.

    How many people can be and realistically are accommodated in Cyrodiil everyday?

    Even if it was 10000!! that would still represent 0,0001% of the ESO population. (Deliberate exaggeration.)

    Edited by drkfrontiers on March 31, 2020 3:50PM
    "One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
    ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • BackStabeth
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    There were less than 20 total players using Cheat Engine in Cyrodiil. Most of them were banned. The result however was that zergers had new ammo in their argument that they died unfairly to smaller groups, because like I said above, "people hate losing in anything competitive, and would rather blame the system itself than their own failures." Less than .1% of players were cheating, and for a short period of time, yet I see that excuse thrown around here. It is incorrect.

    People cheat because they want to win. You do not know, you cannot possibly know how many people were using Cheat Engine. Cheat Engine happens to be one of the most popular of all time, ways of cheating a lot of games. This is logically, the most irresponsible claim you have made.

    People get burned for cheating constantly, as a matter of fact it's so popular to cheat, and happens so often, that ZoS has had to employ technology to catch and even ban cheaters because there are so many of them. How you could say only 20 people were cheating, or less than for that matter, is way beyond my ability to understand. You expect people to believe that less than 20 people were using Cheat Engine?

    And yeah, 24 people dying to a group of 4 people using AoE skills is unfair, it should never happen, it's not realistic at all, it doesn't happen in the real world, it doesn't happen in any game serious about PvP play, it doesn't happen in fiction, in movies, in any other way, why should it happen in ESO.

    It's not anyone's failures except for ZoS. If 4 people are unfairly using game mechanics to kill 24 people, there is a glaring problem, there is something terribly wrong. And if those 4 people were truly as skilled as you continue to claim, then the AoE ability wouldn't matter, not at all, not one lick. But that's the only thing that has changed in the entire conversation you are posting here, is AoE. One thing. That takes no skill to use, no skill at all, it's just aiming and pushing a button. If you are that guy, you have no skill at all, you are not a skilled PvPer at all. You are a taking advantage of an unfair game mechanic, a button pusher with no imagination at all.
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  • FENGRUSH
    FENGRUSH
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    I think the conclusion of this thread is nothing in ESO is skilled anymore and everyone's statements are false. Thanks for coming to lowbeis Ted talk, were all screwed.
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  • Universe
    Universe
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    I think the conclusion of this thread is nothing in ESO is skilled anymore and everyone's statements are false. Thanks for coming to lowbeis Ted talk, were all screwed.

    Pretty much... :D
    Some videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
    PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
    Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
    PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
    Started playing ESO in beta & early access
    User_ID: Daedric_Prince
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  • Thicclady
    Thicclady
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

    Cyrodiil CAN be popular. It was hindered from its potential for so long that it lost its following

    Those who play there will play no matter what, some people just aren't interested in pvp. This is PvE game afterall.
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  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    OP, As far as I remember, you have only one part of the whole pie.

    Yes, it is true that when AoE caps were added a some people left, but it is also true that

    1- The first days there were bots on Cyro, so a lot of resources went to the antibot system
    2- CE... I saw some pretty weird things back in the day (like the WW dragon leap)
    3- The lighting patch.

    and those are just a few reasons

    It is not that just because a couple of guys left that ZoS decided to move resources, that was just a consequence of several other things, each one of them adding another load on the server.

    Blob groups spamming impulse were common when the game was launched even with AoE caps. Blob groups spamming impulse would have been popular too without AoE Caps. Blob groups composed only by bots would have been possible too.

    The reason why PvP in ESO failed is just because ESO was done with a different kind of player in mind... an ideal player... and that player doesn't exist.
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
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  • killimandrosb16_ESO
    killimandrosb16_ESO
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    A lot of input. So what are the facts?

    1. PvP Cyrodiil and recently also overland/dungeons have a huge lag problem.
    2. It was not always this bad. It wasnt. Cyrodiil never lagged this much. If you disagree, you are mistaken.
    3. Developers dont seem to find a way to repair it or fix it.
    4. PvP playerbase has dropped dramatically the last year+

    Speculations;
    1. Developers doesnt want to spend resources fixing lag because a minor part of the players are affected, while the majority are casuals doing overland content and RP.
    2. Company doesnt want to spend money on servers and are cutting the hardware leading to the terrible lag.
    3. AoE/healing/CP/tank meta and players not dieing is one of the reasons why it lags
    4. PBAoE groups creates the lag. The servers cant handle all the input.

    Solution?
    Developers and company need to be more transparent about the situation.
    - Are they giving up on the PvP side of the game? Its fine. Talk about it.
    - Is there a hardware or a software problem, and is it possible to fix it?
    - WHAT IS THE PLANS FOR THE FUTURE. A ROADMAP FOR PERFORMANCE AND HOW ESO WILL LOOK LIKE THE NEXT YEAR. Are they catering to casuals or will there be space for more hardcore gamers to PvP/dungeoncrawl.
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  • Victor_Blade
    Victor_Blade
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    Great points, mate. The reason why the state of PvP is so bad right now is cos the devs allow themselves to be overwhelmed by the players to make changes instead of thinking about it themselves. There will always be some balance mistakes but if you let the people who run around in huge groups tell you how the game should play out then people who don't have friends, introverts or LGBTQ+ people who are tired of being judged and want to play alone don't get to enjoy PvP at all.

    You have to fix the game on the idea of what it is supposed to be. Not how people want to play it. "This is the game and if you want to be good you have to learn to be good" should be your response instead of dumbing down the game mechanics to make people who don't want to put any effort get better.

    Basically, with these changes you're spitting on our faces and saying "Hardwork never pays off.." cos if I worked day and night to get good at the game and learned all of this animation cancelling stuff only for it to get nerfed so people who didnt spend a single second into learning the game could get good.

    The people who complain will only play once or twice a week and complain 100 times. We play spend most of our time in game and now it's up to you to decide. Do you want irregular complainers who will eventually leave the game cos they only complain? Or do you want loyal players who sticked through all of the discrimination we took for being solo?
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  • Squidgaurd
    Squidgaurd
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    honestly if the anti cheat system is the issue counldnt they just swap it out for something better or revert to game back to a client side type of deal.
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  • rfennell_ESO
    rfennell_ESO
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    There were less than 20 total players using Cheat Engine in Cyrodiil. Most of them were banned. The result however was that zergers had new ammo in their argument that they died unfairly to smaller groups, because like I said above, "people hate losing in anything competitive, and would rather blame the system itself than their own failures." Less than .1% of players were cheating, and for a short period of time, yet I see that excuse thrown around here. It is incorrect.

    People cheat because they want to win. You do not know, you cannot possibly know how many people were using Cheat Engine. Cheat Engine happens to be one of the most popular of all time, ways of cheating a lot of games. This is logically, the most irresponsible claim you have made.

    People get burned for cheating constantly, as a matter of fact it's so popular to cheat, and happens so often, that ZoS has had to employ technology to catch and even ban cheaters because there are so many of them. How you could say only 20 people were cheating, or less than for that matter, is way beyond my ability to understand. You expect people to believe that less than 20 people were using Cheat Engine?

    And yeah, 24 people dying to a group of 4 people using AoE skills is unfair, it should never happen, it's not realistic at all, it doesn't happen in the real world, it doesn't happen in any game serious about PvP play, it doesn't happen in fiction, in movies, in any other way, why should it happen in ESO.

    It's not anyone's failures except for ZoS. If 4 people are unfairly using game mechanics to kill 24 people, there is a glaring problem, there is something terribly wrong. And if those 4 people were truly as skilled as you continue to claim, then the AoE ability wouldn't matter, not at all, not one lick. But that's the only thing that has changed in the entire conversation you are posting here, is AoE. One thing. That takes no skill to use, no skill at all, it's just aiming and pushing a button. If you are that guy, you have no skill at all, you are not a skilled PvPer at all. You are a taking advantage of an unfair game mechanic, a button pusher with no imagination at all.

    The problem with Cheat Engine was mostly that it was in constant use by a select group of players for a long period of time before it's "reveal" weekend.

    It was mostly used by embedded players in zerg battles to augment their regenerations. These weren't solo players wiping groups... A once very well known sorcerer who used to talk "honor" and the assorted muck of small scaler nonsense was once caught afk in stealth by me. I have no honor, I will kill lowbies, afkers, outnumbered or if you are on a mount.. I don't care. I was also a glass cannon nightblade that would gib you before you could react. Well I caught Mr. righteous pvp sorcerer afk and his health regen was higher than my ability to damage him. That's old school glass cannon burst nightblade vs squishy sorcerer without shields not being able to do enough damage to break through health regeneration of an afk player.

    It was relatively common to find a player like that. You just learned to focus a group on them or just leave them and head to easier ap.

    You could say it was an isolated incident. Except it was one incident of a great many I personally witnessed. I would stealth out in a keep as it was taken and as I said... I have no honor. I will gank you in a keep, I will gank you from a wall, I will gank you on your mount... I used to see "certain" players that left themselves exposed in a courtyard that were just there to be a target and could not be killed even by monstrous snipes. Then there buddies would posse up and try and hunt me down. Usage of CE was once widespread... People aren't tin foil hat users for thinking it was and likely is still a problem.
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  • actosh
    actosh
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    my hope for the future is another themepark mmo with action combat, dungeons, raids and pvp.

    Nope not Asses of Creation.

    Dont like the look of blue protocol, but the gameplay is awesome. ^^
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  • Kingslayer513
    Kingslayer513
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    OP's ideas sounds good on paper but that's definitely not what's causing the lag. It's actually pretty funny how many uninformed forum goers are applauding OP when they don't have a clue though.

    The correct answer is this:
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Sounds like some conspiracy theory stuff to me. In reality performance decreased dramatically with the lighting patch which transferred many calculations to the server side to combat cheating. From that point on each patch added more spaghetti code causing problems due to rushing content. They also started adding more proc sets, costumes, flashy mounts and skill animations. Everybody’s cp also started increasing causing much more server calculations as well.

    To say resources were taking away seems unfounded since the performance issues can be traced back to the lighting patch and then each patch afterwards. That would also suggest they were taking resources away each patch which would make no sense. The problem is their coding and there is no amount of resources or improved servers that can change that. They need to take the time to fix their code or the performance will continue to degrade with each patch.

    To add on to this post, the whole concept of "taking away resources" doesn't make any sense at all within the megaserver architecture. The problem is fully about the increased server (calculation) load and bottlenecked resources server side due to poor design implementation.
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  • Universe
    Universe
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    OP's ideas sounds good on paper but that's definitely not what's causing the lag. It's actually pretty funny how many uninformed forum goers are applauding OP when they don't have a clue though.

    The correct answer is this:
    Sanctum74 wrote: »
    Sounds like some conspiracy theory stuff to me. In reality performance decreased dramatically with the lighting patch which transferred many calculations to the server side to combat cheating. From that point on each patch added more spaghetti code causing problems due to rushing content. They also started adding more proc sets, costumes, flashy mounts and skill animations. Everybody’s cp also started increasing causing much more server calculations as well.

    To say resources were taking away seems unfounded since the performance issues can be traced back to the lighting patch and then each patch afterwards. That would also suggest they were taking resources away each patch which would make no sense. The problem is their coding and there is no amount of resources or improved servers that can change that. They need to take the time to fix their code or the performance will continue to degrade with each patch.

    To add on to this post, the whole concept of "taking away resources" doesn't make any sense at all within the megaserver architecture. The problem is fully about the increased server (calculation) load and bottlenecked resources server side due to poor design implementation.

    A megaserver is made of many smaller "shards" and each of them has different resources capacity.
    A Cyrodiil campaign is run on different shard/s than Craglorn's open world shards and those shards have fixed amount of resources available.

    It is not so far fetched to think that if ZOS increased the number of CPU cores and memory of those virtual servers the performance would have been better.
    For example, instead of 2 cores & 4 GB RAM VPS they can use 4 cores and 8 GB RAM VPS(numbers are just for example and not real).
    You can search in google for how increasing the resources of a server can help to improve the performance.
    I agree that it doesn't solve any coding issues but it probably wouldn't make it any worse either.
    Edited by Universe on March 31, 2020 6:51PM
    Some videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
    PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
    Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
    PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
    Started playing ESO in beta & early access
    User_ID: Daedric_Prince
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