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The true history of Cyrodiil's server problems and hope for the future.

  • ArcVelarian
    ArcVelarian
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    This post completely covers everything from the gameplay side of things.

    My e-hat goes off to you good sir.

    giphy.gif
    Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.
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  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

    This discussion is not meant to cause drama, bait any responses, or disrupt in any way. It is meant to clear up some misunderstandings and state hope for the future.

    Meanwhile in reality the zergs being "capped" by "small" "skilled" groups was not something that happened.

    The "small" "skilled" group that dominated zergs were always in the 8-12 range of aoe spammers OR were themselves an organized zerg.

    AOE caps were installed to prevent lag due to calculations required.

    The "clear up some misunderstandings" line is funny in that it's not what actually occurred in pvp.

    The pre-AOE cap zerg killers were always an organized group that numbered 8+. It was basically one form of aoe spam or another with a dedicated cleanser/spammer of retreating maneuvers.

    Early pvp also lacked stamina classes altogether. Stamina classes didn't really come into usefulness until maybe vr16 content and then 2.0.

    Also the only "small" "skilled" group that were wiping zergs were vampire DK's that "skillfully" spammed devouring swarm in conjunction with unlimited reflection wings. You literally had to channel resto staves on them with a large group to kill them.

    [Edit to remove bait]

    No offense, but everything you just stated was incorrect, and I literally posted a video on page1 of this thread with my 4man wiping zergs.

    Furthermore, AoE caps were not installed to prevent lag, as thats not how adding an additional layer to calculations works, and since I have already explained how this works on a technical level earlier in the thread, I will not go over the math again.
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  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
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    I am honestly baffled by how many people still attempt to defend AE caps despite the company themselves admitting they were a failure and removing them.

    I am further baffled by the lack of awareness to the history of AE caps destroying other pvp games, despite all that evidence being posted in the OP.

    Lastly, I am not surprised that people who enjoy zerging feel that skilled small groups "shouldnt be able" to wipe zergs, and that this is unfair and would never work. It worked in DAoC for many years with a massive healthy pvp population, which is WHY DAoC was chosen as the model for this game. I linked numerous DAoC zerg bombing videos on the first page, as well as one ESO zerg bombing video. The truth is that zergs get embarrassed when they lose to smaller groups, and rage report that its "unfair" despite the simple and most obvious tactic of "spread out to avoid getting bombed" being a well known pvp tactic since literally 2001.

    What I think the numbers show here (and on reddit from this same thread, 329 upvotes and climbing) is that the majority of players agree and understand the history I laid out in the OP, and that just like I said, there are a lot of people who enjoy the zerg playstyle who will defend the mechanic being exploited (AE caps) to the bitter end, despite directly seeing the evidence ingame currently of what it has done to Cyrodiil in the exact same way it did to the previous games before it.

    In conclusion, it honestly doesnt matter, as the devs know what happened, which is why they later removed the AE caps, tho unfortunately too late to save Cyrodiil. Those who enjoy Cyrodiil, now want them to bring back the server resources required to make it playable, and have hope that someday they will.
    Edited by Lowbei on March 31, 2020 9:19PM
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  • killimandrosb16_ESO
    killimandrosb16_ESO
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    ZOS, Mods. Is this presented here by the OP true? A lot of players think he hit the nail.
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  • eso_lags
    eso_lags
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Lowbei wrote: »
    ITT Small Scale PvPer trying to convince the forum goers that AoE caps ruined PvP.

    The mass exodus of the tens of thousands of pvpers happened within a couple months of release, before the performance degradation began, and the reason they left were due to AoE caps resulting in ball zergs everywhere. That part really isnt up for debate.

    You have sources for how many PvPers left? I bet you dont. So yeah, its definitely debatable.

    A absolutely massive amount. Servers completely emptied out over the course of a patch. This is back when there were many filled PVP servers.

    Here is a source directly related. What I don't understand is how you can be so obstinate over this claim. "I bet you dont." Why are you betting against it? You really dont believe people didn't want to play in an environment where they couldnt hit more than 6 people at a time while they are being overrun by 30+? Drop an AOE stun and it hits 6 as 24 run right past you. Yea, that makes a lot of sense.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

    The obstinate comes from a group of the community that hates pvp players. And even more from within that group who treat pvp issues like "its not my problem so I dont care". Its the same reason why you will see people commenting on cyrodil performance threads with something like "the game runs fine for me". And then when you look at the profile of the person saying it and 9/10 times they dont even go into cyrodil or do anything that would be hindered by performance.

    Its just sad, because I want everyone to be able to do what they want in this game, and I dont know why that opinion doesn't seem to be shared among so many. Its like their love for the game and need to white knight zos over powers their common sense.

    If I saw something wrong with a part of the game, even if I hated doing that part of the game, I would still call it out. Especially if zenimax neglected it, or pretended the problem didnt exist, for years. I would still want the people who ejoy it to be able to do it. Because at the end of the day having a wide variety of players doing a wide variety of things, that are functioning as intended, is what is good for the game.
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  • BackStabeth
    BackStabeth
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    I am honestly baffled by how many people still attempt to defend AE caps despite the company themselves admitting they were a failure and removing them.

    I am further baffled by the lack of awareness to the history of AE caps destroying other pvp games, despite all that evidence being posted in the OP.

    Lastly, I am not surprised that people who enjoy zerging feel that skilled small groups "shouldnt be able" to wipe zergs, and that this is unfair and would never work. It worked in DAoC for many years with a massive healthy pvp population, which is WHY DAoC was chosen as the model for this game. I linked numerous DAoC zerg bombing videos on the first page, as well as one ESO zerg bombing video. The truth is that zergs get embarrassed when they lose to smaller groups, and rage report that its "unfair" despite the simple and most obvious tactic of "spread out to avoid getting bombed" being a well known pvp tactic since literally 2001.

    What I think the numbers show here (and on reddit from this same thread, 329 upvotes and climbing) is that the majority of players agree and understand the history I laid out in the OP, and that just like I said, there are a lot of people who enjoy the zerg playstyle who will defend the mechanic being exploited (AE caps) to the bitter end, despite directly seeing the evidence ingame currently of what it has done to Cyrodiil in the exact same way it did to the previous games before it.

    In conclusion, it honestly doesnt matter, as the devs know what happened, which is why they later removed the AE caps, tho unfortunately too late to save Cyrodiil. Those who enjoy Cyrodiil, now want them to bring back the server resources required to make it playable, and have hope that someday they will.

    You insist and post that AoE caps are what ruined Cryodil, and yet, it's still ruined. Fact is, there were a lot of people who were involved in PvP when it went live, and that happens to be the same exact time AoE caps were in place. I think you have the time line screwed up in your head. It was patch 1.1 when the caps were enforced, which had already been in place prior to launch but needed to be patched work correctly. I posted the link that you called weird, in my own post. You might serve yourself well to read it.

    The decline happened over time, and not because of AoE caps, those were in place since launch. I suspect it's the fact that it takes NO skill at all to PvP in ESO that people end up leaving. It's the toxic nature of the way people behave that cause people to leave. It's better PvP in other MMOs, it's that people were cheating and no, sorry, not under 20 people cheating was and is still prolific enough that ZoS employs automated mechanisms to identify those people cheating and to ban them until they can be reviewed. It's so many reasons and yet, you still insist it was because of the AoE cap, and now because those people already left.

    Think for just one min what you are saying. Prior to the AoE cap, in the way you describe things, a 4 person group was able to readily dispatch a 24 person group, and after the AoE limit, they no longer were able and so left. Do you not see the fallacy in asserting that and then saying these 4 person groups were able to kill groups of 24 players because of skill?

    Or let me ask this question, how is it that these skilled 4 person groups were able to kill groups of 24 people with AoE and why could they not after it was capped? Mind you, it's just one skill, one button we are talking about. What special skill did it take to use that one key, and then what special skill were these people not able to use by not being able to press that one key?

    You see how silly your assertion is? There was no skill involved, it was 4 people using AoE, pressing one button, that were able to kill large groups. That's it. It was taken away then they could no longer do it. Are we clear on that?

    And while those 4 people might want to stay, and play, and continue to use that one button to kill large numbers of people, the people being killed would not like that game mechanic at all. In your scenario, those people would either become frustrated and leave, because 4 people using one button/AoE to kill 24 people is just silly, or they would end up just like your 4 person group and run around spamming AoE.

    No skill at all, no talent, nobody was special spamming AoE, it takes nothing to learn how to press a key. People left because they couldn't easily kill other people. They left because they no longer had that easy advantage, when things got challenging, those people you called skilled bailed on ESO because they could not longer easily kill anyone by spamming one key. You are absolutely, wrong. Attempting to state your opinion as fact and providing garbage info to support it with no proof, no market studies, no numbers to back up your claims doesn't work. We are not stupid, you are not going to fool anyone into believing your version of the facts because they simply are not true.

    Just simply look at what happens in Cryodil, and event that includes Cryodil causes a lot of new people to engage in PvP, then after the event they are gone. They don't come back, and not because of AoE regardless if they did an even when it was capped or not. They are not leaving because resources were moved from Cryodil to other areas of ESO. They are leaving for some other reason. If the reasons you are suggesting as being those that caused people to leave, were true, people would be sticking around now.

    You are not thinking logically, but emotionally. You assert opinions as facts. You exaggerate the skill of these 4 man groups who spam one key for AoE. You have misrepresented the timeline. You provide no evidence, no proof to back up any of your claims. You pull numbers from somewhere out of the cosmos that make no sense. You claim to know every person who was using cheat engine which is outrageous.

    Do you not see why so many of us are calling you out? You are wrong, on almost ever single point you attempted to make because you cannot back up any of it, not one little bit by any factual evidence or proof. Yeah, I'm calling you out. Show us where ZoS has admitted they made a mistake, a change doesn't mean anyone is admitting any mistake it means ZoS is desperate to try and attract PvP players. Show us where anyone at ZoS has stated AoE caps were a mistake.

    One more point. If everyone used AoE because it was op, then your 4 person groups you continually misrepresent as being skilled, they would die over and over just as people who were not using AoE were dying easily to them. Can you imagine how salty they would be if they didn't have any advantage? They would leave, just the same as they did when AoE was capped. And I wish that would have happened because then you truly would understand how lacking in skill those AoE spammers actually were.
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  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
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    You insist and post that AoE caps are what ruined Cryodil, and yet, it's still ruined. Fact is, there were a lot of people who were involved in PvP when it went live, and that happens to be the same exact time AoE caps were in place. I think you have the time line screwed up in your head. It was patch 1.1 when the caps were enforced, which had already been in place prior to launch but needed to be patched work correctly.

    Incorrect. The AE caps were inserted into the launch build as I described, and this caused the mass exodus that started the downfall of Cyrodiil. The patch note you are referring to in 1.1 was, as they said themselves, an attempt to clarify the subject, because even they could see why more than half the population had left during 1.0

    Their thought process was something along the lines of...

    “Whaaat?!? Why are they leaving? The AE caps were meant to protect the majority because they zerg! They must just not understand, so we need to reiterate that we have AE caps in the notes of the next big patch.”

    No offense, but the rest of your post was nonsense that has already been discussed in detail in this thread, so I wont waste time going over it again.

    You can defend AE caps if you want, but even ZOS knew they were the root of the problem, which is why they dont exist anymore, its just unfortunate that by the time they removed them it was too late, as the resources had already been pulled away. It is unfortunate that they seem to have chosen to give up on Cyrodiil, which is why so many of us experienced players are stating that we still have hope that they will change their mind.
    Edited by Lowbei on April 1, 2020 1:36AM
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  • BackStabeth
    BackStabeth
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    You insist and post that AoE caps are what ruined Cryodil, and yet, it's still ruined. Fact is, there were a lot of people who were involved in PvP when it went live, and that happens to be the same exact time AoE caps were in place. I think you have the time line screwed up in your head. It was patch 1.1 when the caps were enforced, which had already been in place prior to launch but needed to be patched work correctly.

    Incorrect. The AE caps were inserted into the launch build as I described, and this caused the mass exodus that started the downfall of Cyrodiil. The patch note you are referring to in 1.1 was, as they said themselves, an attempt to clarify the subject, because even they could see why more than half the population had left during 1.0

    Their thought process was something along the lines of...

    “Whaaat?!? Why are they leaving? The AE caps were meant to protect the majority because they zerg! They must just not understand, so we need to reiterate that we have AE caps in the notes of the next big patch.”

    No offense, but the rest of your post was nonsense that has already been discussed in detail in this thread, so I wont waste time going over it again.

    You can defend AE caps if you want, but even ZOS knew they were the root of the problem, which is why they dont exist anymore, its just unfortunate that by the time they removed them it was too late, as the resources had already been pulled away. It is unfortunate that they seem to have chosen to give up on Cyrodiil, which is why so many of us experienced players are stating that we still have hope that they will change their mind.

    You say things are none sense when you have nothing to say about them.

    Fact, AoE caps were always there

    Fact, ZoS fixed unintended mechanics the first few patches, in other words they fixed how AoE was always intended to work

    Fact, people have left for numerous reasons, not only for AoE caps and the number is not anything close to what you sugggest

    Fact, if so very few people were in these 4 person teams as you stated, there couldn't be many of them, and if those were the ones using AoE and had issue when it was capped, and all of them left, it would never account for the number of people you claim left.

    Fact, you do not know with any clarity why people left ESO or PvP because you have not taken any polls, you have not looked at any statistics, you cannot possibly know.

    Fact, you cannot possibly know what the thought process was, of the people who were making these decisions, not unless you spoke with them directly which you did not.

    Some people certainly fled the game when AoE caps were put in place, but not the numbers you are suggesting, not even close. I can imagine people who claimed to be skilled but were just jamming and spamming their AoE skill fled the game because they were deeply embarrassed. But far more people left than this excuse can account for.

    AoE was capped not because ZoS thought they were protecting the majority of people, it was removed because a small group of unskilled, untalented, keyboard spammers could jam one key on their keyboard and kill large groups easily. Now, if you want to have a discussion about that being fair or taking some kind of special skill, we can certainly have that discussion. However, I think it's very clear that the people who got butthurt about the AoE cap were few, very few. Unless you are suggesting that the thousands of people who left the game were all the skilled players you are talking about. You can't have both, a small number of people who were using AoE before the cap, and thousands of people leaving the game because AoE was capped, it's either a lot of people or not.

    If people who PvP want more people to PvP then they have to behave differently. They will not, so fewer and fewer people will engage in PvP because lets face it, when someone is teabagging someone, or they send them a nasty message or people cheat and cannot be beat, or any number of other things some PvPers engage in, other people don't want to engage them. It's the toxic nature of PvP that causes people to not want to even try. My own experience with PvP in ESO? I think it's a joke. People who think they are good at PvP because they play ESO have no clue what real competitive PvP is. The only thing even remotely in common with more serious PvP games is the toxic behavior.
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  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
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    "a small group of unskilled, untalented, keyboard spammers could jam one key on their keyboard and kill large groups easily"

    "If people who PvP want more people to PvP then they have to behave differently"

    "My own experience with PvP in ESO? I think it's a joke"

    We get it, you hate pvpers, and the reason seems fairly obvious.

    Why you are so angry about this thread and responding to it numerous times insulting people calling them "unskilled untalented keyboard spammers" if you dont care about pvp in this game?

    I think your position is clear on the subject. Since you seem to be upset, to avoid derailing the thread, I will ignore it. Have a nice day.
    Edited by Lowbei on April 1, 2020 5:50AM
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  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    You insist and post that AoE caps are what ruined Cryodil, and yet, it's still ruined. Fact is, there were a lot of people who were involved in PvP when it went live, and that happens to be the same exact time AoE caps were in place. I think you have the time line screwed up in your head. It was patch 1.1 when the caps were enforced, which had already been in place prior to launch but needed to be patched work correctly.

    Incorrect. The AE caps were inserted into the launch build as I described, and this caused the mass exodus that started the downfall of Cyrodiil. The patch note you are referring to in 1.1 was, as they said themselves, an attempt to clarify the subject, because even they could see why more than half the population had left during 1.0

    Their thought process was something along the lines of...

    “Whaaat?!? Why are they leaving? The AE caps were meant to protect the majority because they zerg! They must just not understand, so we need to reiterate that we have AE caps in the notes of the next big patch.”

    No offense, but the rest of your post was nonsense that has already been discussed in detail in this thread, so I wont waste time going over it again.

    You can defend AE caps if you want, but even ZOS knew they were the root of the problem, which is why they dont exist anymore, its just unfortunate that by the time they removed them it was too late, as the resources had already been pulled away. It is unfortunate that they seem to have chosen to give up on Cyrodiil, which is why so many of us experienced players are stating that we still have hope that they will change their mind.

    You say things are none sense when you have nothing to say about them.

    Fact, AoE caps were always there

    Fact, ZoS fixed unintended mechanics the first few patches, in other words they fixed how AoE was always intended to work

    Fact, people have left for numerous reasons, not only for AoE caps and the number is not anything close to what you sugggest

    Fact, if so very few people were in these 4 person teams as you stated, there couldn't be many of them, and if those were the ones using AoE and had issue when it was capped, and all of them left, it would never account for the number of people you claim left.

    Fact, you do not know with any clarity why people left ESO or PvP because you have not taken any polls, you have not looked at any statistics, you cannot possibly know.

    Fact, you cannot possibly know what the thought process was, of the people who were making these decisions, not unless you spoke with them directly which you did not.

    Some people certainly fled the game when AoE caps were put in place, but not the numbers you are suggesting, not even close. I can imagine people who claimed to be skilled but were just jamming and spamming their AoE skill fled the game because they were deeply embarrassed. But far more people left than this excuse can account for.

    AoE was capped not because ZoS thought they were protecting the majority of people, it was removed because a small group of unskilled, untalented, keyboard spammers could jam one key on their keyboard and kill large groups easily. Now, if you want to have a discussion about that being fair or taking some kind of special skill, we can certainly have that discussion. However, I think it's very clear that the people who got butthurt about the AoE cap were few, very few. Unless you are suggesting that the thousands of people who left the game were all the skilled players you are talking about. You can't have both, a small number of people who were using AoE before the cap, and thousands of people leaving the game because AoE was capped, it's either a lot of people or not.

    If people who PvP want more people to PvP then they have to behave differently. They will not, so fewer and fewer people will engage in PvP because lets face it, when someone is teabagging someone, or they send them a nasty message or people cheat and cannot be beat, or any number of other things some PvPers engage in, other people don't want to engage them. It's the toxic nature of PvP that causes people to not want to even try. My own experience with PvP in ESO? I think it's a joke. People who think they are good at PvP because they play ESO have no clue what real competitive PvP is. The only thing even remotely in common with more serious PvP games is the toxic behavior.

    Don't confuse him with the Facts. His mind is made up.
    FYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.
    FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.
    FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.
    FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.
    FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.
    Balance is a "Bad" thing.

    Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.

    Balance is a "Bad" thing.
    Is the glass half full or half empty?
    I say, "Get a smaller glass."
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  • Zorgon_The_Revenged
    Zorgon_The_Revenged
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    I am honestly baffled by how many people still attempt to defend AE caps despite the company themselves admitting they were a failure and removing them.

    I don't think they are defending them. Removing AOE caps did nothing noticeable for performance, even though the cult of AOE cap removal gave the impression that it would fix everything and Cyrodiil would become a PvP paradise, with 1000's of "real" PvPers returning to their promised land.

    But I get it, no more pre-mades in BG's, Camelot Unchained still not released, New World removing full loot open world PvP and many more players hopes from devs that say they can aan will make the PvP dream come true.....yours and many PvPers low mood is understandable.
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  • Lowbei
    Lowbei
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    Lowbei wrote: »
    I am honestly baffled by how many people still attempt to defend AE caps despite the company themselves admitting they were a failure and removing them.

    I don't think they are defending them. Removing AOE caps did nothing noticeable for performance, even though the cult of AOE cap removal gave the impression that it would fix everything and Cyrodiil would become a PvP paradise, with 1000's of "real" PvPers returning to their promised land.

    But I get it, no more pre-mades in BG's, Camelot Unchained still not released, New World removing full loot open world PvP and many more players hopes from devs that say they can aan will make the PvP dream come true.....yours and many PvPers low mood is understandable.

    Incorrect. AoE cap removal, again (for about the 10th time), came too late to save ESO due to server resources having already been removed. Only readding those resources can bring players back, which is what this thread is about.

    Its not low mood, its hope that they someday make the effort to not intentionally sink their own product. Your second statement just sounds like you just hate pvpers in general, which is the source of many of you peoples anger at this thread. I find it to be fascinating that you are happy that half the endgame of ESO died, while now 12man pve raids are also reporting the same lag as server resources continue to dwindle.

    I feel good that I have done my part here to bail water from the sinking ship. The fact that many of you seem happy and content to watch it spiral into the abyss, is a bit gross. Oh well, have a nice day.
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  • BackStabeth
    BackStabeth
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    Lowbei wrote: »

    "a small group of unskilled, untalented, keyboard spammers could jam one key on their keyboard and kill large groups easily"

    "If people who PvP want more people to PvP then they have to behave differently"

    "My own experience with PvP in ESO? I think it's a joke"

    We get it, you hate pvpers, and the reason seems fairly obvious.

    Why you are so angry about this thread and responding to it numerous times insulting people calling them "unskilled untalented keyboard spammers" if you dont care about pvp in this game?

    I think your position is clear on the subject. Since you seem to be upset, to avoid derailing the thread, I will ignore it. Have a nice day.

    Ah but I don't hate PvPers, I have done almost nothing but PvP since Ultima Online was beta, that's about 23 years of almost exclusively playing PvP. You are so very, very wrong about how I feel in regards to PvP.

    What I have noticed in all those years is that there is a certain type of PvP player that will insist they are skilled, that they are somehow better than all other players because their small group is op, can take on large numbers of other players. And yet, every single time this claim is made that they are elite, that they are more skilled or more talented is related to some type of abuse of a game mechanic, or cheating, or some other advantage others do not have. I do not appreciate that type of person, and this happens to be some of what I see in this very thread.

    You have berated zergs, and what you are calling a zerg are large parties of players that ZoS has built the game around. It's as if you have totally missed the entire intent of the type of PvP play that is Cryodill, I mean think about it. Siege engines, attacking and defending castles, Cryodiil PvP was always intended to be large groups against large groups. It was never intended to be small groups of button mashers spamming AoE over and over to kill large numbers of players. That sounds so crazy even when I say it, how could you ever believe that it's good for the game the way PvP was intended in Cryodiil.

    If you are talking about battle grounds, then the cap doesn't even matter and that is small groups fighting each other. You haven't mentioned anything about that type of PvP play at all.

    You as so many others use the word zerg as if it's a bad thing, when that is exactly what PvP in Cryodiil was intended for. It was never ever, not ever the intention of anyone to allow small groups of people to use one skill and spam that one skill over and over to kill large numbers of other players. It has been said over and over and even in patch notes. You know this. You are the one who is hating. Claiming thousands of people left because a tiny number of people were spamming AoE to kill large numbers of people makes absolutely no sense at all. It was never the AoE cap that caused people to leave in droves. It was those few people insisting, and still insisting that AoE was nerfed when it ever was, insisting that AoE caps were taken away when they have always been there. It's as if you are trying with intent and purpose to make people believe something that didn't happen, did happen so you can be viewed a certain way or people believe they should be upset or frustrated about it and leave.

    Fact is, in every single game that has ever had PvP, and every game that has PVE has a certain life span. This is lengthened by certain marketing tactics, a good example of this would be EVE Online where it was declining and they made it F2P which caused a huge influx of new players. All games eventually decline, it's the very nature of the market. As well, if you look at the marketing data of PvP type games, almost all end up having an exodus right after release. And if you correlate that with what it seems is happening you could assume that it's because the advantages that those PvP players enjoyed, that were unintended mechanics or ways of abusing the mechanics of the game, or cheating, were changed or removed. There is a certain type of person who will leave a game with issues they abused are fixed. This has always been a problem.

    Insisting that one thing is the cause for all the people who left is really just silly. Being prejudiced in any way against large groups you call zergs is really hating the entire intent of Cryodill PvP. Calling small man groups highly skilled anything, by just using one skill and pressing one button over and over again and suggesting because of that they have more skill than people in large groups is again, silly. I have seen people in zergs that were just beautiful to watch in how they PvP, like some sort of ballet. I have seen singular Nightblades, paper thin tanks, take on and kill 10s of people before they are killed in a keep that has been taken by the other side. I have seen some real PvPers in ESO, and I have to tell you, 4 button mashers spamming one skill to kill many people is not PvP, it's not skilled PvP play, it's lame. Period, it's lame and there is nothing about it that takes any talent at all. Anyone can spend the time, effort and energy to farm bis gear, to build their CP, to properly distribute their points and skill and then join 3 other players that have done the same, sneak up behind a large group and press their AoE skill to burn them down before they ever knew what happened. That takes absolutely no skill at all, and if you are suggesting it does, you either know for a fact you are misrepresenting yourself, or you have no idea what PvP skilled players look like.

    You are wrong on so many counts. The only thing that might be remotely admirable about anyone who is able to do what you talk about is that they stuck around through all the changes, through all the problems, they were able to grind farming gear and getting their CP up, in other words willing to put in the work and that's all that is admirable about them. IT TAKES NO SKILL TO PRESS ONE BUTTON REPEATEDLY. End of your story!
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  • ZOS_Volpe
    ZOS_Volpe
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    Greetings,

    As this thread has continued to derail with baiting and flaming comments, despite our previous message, we have decided to close it down. When posting, we ask that forum members remain civil, constructive, and within the guidelines that we have in place. If there are any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.
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