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When could we play TESO for a gameplay instead of always favoring the max damage?

  • Glurin
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    Malkiv wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    Malkiv wrote: »
    When people are gate-keeping with dummy parses, they want to make sure that you understand how to sustain your damage, but don't care how you do it - just let's see that you actually can.

    Well with the way some people are fighting me on this, apparently they do care how you do it. They really shouldn't, but they do.

    I have read the thread in its entirety, and no one is fighting you regarding how someone meets their damage sustain target on a dummy parse.

    Oh that's complete ***. No offense, but that's exactly what they've been doing all day today. Although given that we need disclaimers on everything these days, I suppose I should specify that by that statement I do not mean that the topic is strictly about dummy parses.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • JumpmanLane
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Yet for the sake of argument let’s say you DID know the BiS builds for PvP and PvE. Why wouldn’t you want to run them?

    If you have to ask, you'll never understand.

    There shouldn't even be a "right" build. That's the spirit behind play as you want. You can play builds A, B, C, or all the way down the alphabet and then some, but you shouldn't be in a position where you've just cut your whole leg off if you don't play build M. Sure M can put out more damage than any other. That's perfectly reasonable. But if I chose to play build A, I should still be able to hold my own and keep up with him.

    I think you should PvP more. Forget all about PvE and just PvP for like 6-8months. Tbag everybody you kill. No everybody you run across DEAD. Read ya hate tells. Write some. Make some ENEMIES.

    Then, you’ll be clamoring to run the BiS in PvP EVERY TIME you set in foot in Cyro because you’ll be competing against people you don’t like and who don’t like you. All that will carry over into PvE.

    You won’t care about silly concepts like balance and role playing builds.

    P.S.: Once you wash your face in St. Pelinal’s bowl of blood winning is all that matters! Sweep the leg, Johnny!

    “You’re the best AROUND! Nothing’s ever gonna get ya down! You’re the best around...”
    Edited by JumpmanLane on March 30, 2020 3:00AM
  • idk
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    Glurin wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    JayKwellen wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    JayKwellen wrote: »
    Personally, I think part of it stems from people feeling perturbed about others being, in their mind, better than them solely because of "crutches" like meta builds or CP or gear or whatever, or bristling at the idea that they may have to do something other than exactly what they want to reach certain levels of achievement -- this insidious idea that rather than equal opportunity to achieve something, instead achievement itself should be guaranteed. This idea that anything which challenges someones own individuality is somehow an attack on their own worthiness and value as a player. It's rather weird and infantile tbqh.

    Here's where you're going wrong. "Equal opportunity to achieve something" should not mean "You have the choice to use this build or die." That's not diversity or choice, and it sure as hell isn't "play as you want". The so called RP builds should be viable even for difficult content. (Within reason of course.) Build diversity isn't about showing drastically different DPS meter results or what name is engraved on your metal undewear. Far from it. You should be killing stuff within a similar time span whether you use a staff or a sword or a bow. The diversity is in how you get there. It's the reason we can use any class to fill any role as opposed to being stuck as a tank just because you picked DK on the character creation screen.

    Why?

    I mean, don't think that "choose this or die" is an acceptable outcome either, but neither do I believe RP builds should perform equally as builds specifically optimized for a certain function. If you believe outcomes should be the same despite the input, then that's really no different than saying someone who chooses to spend four years to become a nurse should have the same earning power and scope of practice as someone who spent 12-16 years to become a physician. What's the point of putting in different amounts of effort if everyone ends up in the same place anyway? Different inputs should create different outputs.

    [snip]

    Diversity means more than just "equal outcome". The range of results should be just as diverse as the range of inputs. If every build, no matter what its purpose, is able to achieve the same exact outcome then that is literally the opposite of diversity. It's a type of forced parity in which everyone and everything is the same, and it robs everyone of the ability to actually be diverse or unique, as, like I've said, anything you do will create the same result.

    I literally can't even imagine a worse way to kill unique and diverse playstyles than to forcably homogenized the entire game and create a situation in which everyone is the same regardless of the choices they make.

    I didn't say equal outcome. You, [removed tags] and everyone else need to stop putting words in my mouth.

    Oddly it is you that is putting words into our mouth as I never said you suggested equal outcome and tmbrinks indicated the same for them.

    That's true. You didn't use the exact words "equal outcome". You said:
    idk wrote: »
    Zos gave us "play as you want" but that never meant every possible build would be optimal or even close to it. A great example is someone that wants do have a tanky build should not be able to put out the same amount of damage as a glass cannon.

    (God how I hate that every argument has to be so literal now. And I'm using the original definition of literal in that statement, not the new one that says literal is virtual.)

    I can understand why you are not wanting things to be literal.

    That sentence does say all builds should not be equal as I am comparing a tanky builds to a glass cannon. I openly admit that and it is accurate.

    It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally. It seems you are grasping at straws to cover for that false comment you made that I was putting words into your mouth.
  • Glurin
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    @JumpmanLane, the very fact that people clamor to run BiS in PvP just confirms what I've been saying. When you narrow that gap between BiS and everything else, the game becomes less about the build and more about the player.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Glurin
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    idk wrote: »
    It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.

    Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Malkiv
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Malkiv wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    Malkiv wrote: »
    When people are gate-keeping with dummy parses, they want to make sure that you understand how to sustain your damage, but don't care how you do it - just let's see that you actually can.

    Well with the way some people are fighting me on this, apparently they do care how you do it. They really shouldn't, but they do.

    I have read the thread in its entirety, and no one is fighting you regarding how someone meets their damage sustain target on a dummy parse.

    Oh that's complete ***. No offense, but that's exactly what they've been doing all day today. Although given that we need disclaimers on everything these days, I suppose I should specify that by that statement I do not mean that the topic is strictly about dummy parses.

    If you didn't intend offense, why word it in such a way that you'd have to preemptively apologize?

    Regardless, you quoted the part about dummy parses, nothing else. You've directly quoting something, and are using that quoted text to further your narrative. I responded to exactly that. What should I have done?

    Beyond that, and aside from a few off-mentions of sets, no one is specifically telling you what builds to run. No one is saying you have to run set X, or use ability Y. What set(s) do you think people are trying to force you into? What abilities do you think people are trying to force you into?

    This entire thread, the common theme has been, "There are some sets and abilities that perform better than others, and those are the ones that are currently being used due to them doing best." You response has been, "I shouldn't have to - I should have a chance to complete all tiers of content with all available sets and abilities provided by the game."

    So, my question is to you: How does this happen? How do we get from our current meta to your ideal scenario? Part of providing feedback is not only insight to the current issues, but also possible solutions. It would look something like this: "Ability X was changed to increase the cost from 200 magicka to 210 magicka with the damage staying the same to bring the skill in line with Ability Z. If you instead decrease the damage bonus from 12% to 10%, it would still decrease the over-all damage in a given time frame and bring it in line with ability Z. This would allow Class B to still perform equally to Class A, which would only benefit from the original change."

    So - without going into every single set to give us change details - what specifically would you change to make all gear have an equal viability (accounting for player skill gap) at all tiers of content?
    PC-NA | PvP (Gray Host & BGs) | PvE (vTrials & vDGs)
  • JumpmanLane
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    Glurin wrote: »
    @JumpmanLane, the very fact that people clamor to run BiS in PvP just confirms what I've been saying. When you narrow that gap between BiS and everything else, the game becomes less about the build and more about the player.

    “Johnny you’re a cream puff!”
    Edited by JumpmanLane on March 30, 2020 3:31AM
  • idk
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    Glurin wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.

    Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.

    Not at all. I just thought it was a great comparison as those builds should not perform anywhere close to each other. After all, you are literally suggesting all builds perform close to each other and that comparison shows that they should not.

    But good try.
  • Glurin
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    Malkiv wrote: »
    Beyond that, and aside from a few off-mentions of sets, no one is specifically telling you what builds to run. No one is saying you have to run set X, or use ability Y. What set(s) do you think people are trying to force you into? What abilities do you think people are trying to force you into?

    This entire thread, the common theme has been, "There are some sets and abilities that perform better than others, and those are the ones that are currently being used due to them doing best." You response has been, "I shouldn't have to - I should have a chance to complete all tiers of content with all available sets and abilities provided by the game."

    "You’re spiteful at ESO and modern society over your stealthed, rolldodging, Hybrid archer wood elf with Soul Assault who was born in Riften to foster parent nords (Roleplaying builds) not being “viable” for Vet Cloudrest+3. And I’m informing you that they shouldn’t ever be viable in difficult endgame PvE content."

    THAT is the sentiment that has been present throughout this thread. Not that there are some builds that perform better. Oh no. The one people have been pushing is that the builds that perform better should be astronomically better and anyone who disagrees just want's the game homogenized so everything is exactly the same.

    BTW, the bit about dummy parses wasn't specifically for you. It was more for the benefit of people who can't get what isn't explicitly spelled out for them in minute detail.
    So, my question is to you: How does this happen? How do we get from our current meta to your ideal scenario? Part of providing feedback is not only insight to the current issues, but also possible solutions. It would look something like this: "Ability X was changed to increase the cost from 200 magicka to 210 magicka with the damage staying the same to bring the skill in line with Ability Z. If you instead decrease the damage bonus from 12% to 10%, it would still decrease the over-all damage in a given time frame and bring it in line with ability Z. This would allow Class B to still perform equally to Class A, which would only benefit from the original change."

    So - without going into every single set to give us change details - what specifically would you change to make all gear have an equal viability (accounting for player skill gap) at all tiers of content?

    You're asking for a simple solution to a rather complex problem. Sadly, there isn't one. It's going to take more than a slight increase in magicka cost on ability x.
    Edited by Glurin on March 30, 2020 3:53AM
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • idk
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    Glurin wrote: »
    , the very fact that people clamor to run BiS in PvP just confirms what I've been saying. When you narrow that gap between BiS and everything else, the game becomes less about the build and more about the player.

    There is no true BiS build in PvP. A good build will depend on one's style and focus on gameplay. There are dozens and dozens of different builds in Cyrodiil. Yes, I am sure some potatoes copy the build of their favorite streamer, but unless they play the same way and know how to, it makes no difference.

    Further, as I have already stated, there are different interests in the game that go beyond PvP and trial raiding. You try to come up with cherry-picked situations as though everyone plays the same way, yet you ignore the larger picture. You seem to think everyone plays and gears the same way, and I am here to tell you that you are very wrong.
  • LordGavus
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    Just gonna throw this out there.
    My guild, and many others, do naked and afraid runs of vet dungeons.
    That is no gear and no weapons, you can only use what you pick up in the dungeon.
    Now, if we can complete these basically naked, it seems to me like any build is viable. Ultimately it just comes down to player skill.

    Vet trials require some reasonable gear, but for the vast majority of the content you can do pretty much whatever you want.
  • Glurin
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    idk wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.

    Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.

    Not at all. I just thought it was a great comparison as those builds should not perform anywhere close to each other. After all, you are literally suggesting all builds perform close to each other and that comparison shows that they should not.

    But good try.

    Then either your comparison has no relevance to this conversation, or you just made the same implication again. Which is it?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Malkiv
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Malkiv wrote: »
    So, my question is to you: How does this happen? How do we get from our current meta to your ideal scenario? Part of providing feedback is not only insight to the current issues, but also possible solutions. It would look something like this: "Ability X was changed to increase the cost from 200 magicka to 210 magicka with the damage staying the same to bring the skill in line with Ability Z. If you instead decrease the damage bonus from 12% to 10%, it would still decrease the over-all damage in a given time frame and bring it in line with ability Z. This would allow Class B to still perform equally to Class A, which would only benefit from the original change."

    So - without going into every single set to give us change details - what specifically would you change to make all gear have an equal viability (accounting for player skill gap) at all tiers of content?

    You're asking for a simple solution to a rather complex problem. Sadly, there isn't one. It's going to take more than a slight increase in magicka cost on ability x.

    I gave a short example of the proper way to address feedback, but I don't believe it would be that simple to make the changes you're pushing for - I never implied that it was. It seems like you're being purposely evasive because you're unable to provide any argument other than, "Because I feel that way, and I said so."
    PC-NA | PvP (Gray Host & BGs) | PvE (vTrials & vDGs)
  • idk
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    Glurin wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Glurin wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.

    Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.

    Not at all. I just thought it was a great comparison as those builds should not perform anywhere close to each other. After all, you are literally suggesting all builds perform close to each other and that comparison shows that they should not.

    But good try.

    Then either your comparison has no relevance to this conversation, or you just made the same implication again. Which is it?

    It shows how easy it is to have two builds that should not be performing similarly and appropriately so. It really is that simple regardless of what you try to read into it.

    I will ignore further replies that continue with the false accusation towards tmbrooks and myself and only reply to posts that have some deal with the actual topic of this thread.
  • JayKwellen
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    tmbrinks wrote: »
    You shouldn’t be asking ZOS for nerfs concerning your refusing to be competitive in a competitive environment.

    This right here is what I consider this whole argument to be, once you distill it down to its bases elements.

    People know, or at least have a general idea, of what it required of them. They know what builds and sets will work best -- and they simply don't care.

    I stead of adjusting to the game, they want the game to adjust to them. They want the game to work around their own personal desires, and expect the game itself to be modified when those desires don't align with reality, even if it comes at the expense of everyone else. Their personal demands should be met and catered to, while everyone else should be made to suffer the consequences.

    That, or they simply wish to attain the same level of achievement as others without doing the same work everyone had to.

    It's a mindset that's as monumentally self-centered as it is harmful.

    Xbox NA - JaeKwellen
    AD PvP
    Trying to main a magcro. This is awful.
  • Glurin
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    JayKwellen wrote: »
    tmbrinks wrote: »
    You shouldn’t be asking ZOS for nerfs concerning your refusing to be competitive in a competitive environment.

    This right here is what I consider this whole argument to be, once you distill it down to its bases elements.

    People know, or at least have a general idea, of what it required of them. They know what builds and sets will work best -- and they simply don't care.

    I stead of adjusting to the game, they want the game to adjust to them. They want the game to work around their own personal desires, and expect the game itself to be modified when those desires don't align with reality, even if it comes at the expense of everyone else. Their personal demands should be met and catered to, while everyone else should be made to suffer the consequences.

    That, or they simply wish to attain the same level of achievement as others without doing the same work everyone had to.

    It's a mindset that's as monumentally self-centered as it is harmful.

    No, I believe that the source of the conflict is like I said earlier. If you have to ask why you wouldn't want to use the absolute best builds out there, then you'll never be able to understand the answer. There's a lot of people in this thread asking why.

    When talking about build diversity, several people couldn't see past gear sets. When talking about viability, it was a bunch of "but you can complete 90% of the game with whatever". Then there's the repeated strawman about every build producing the exact same results. Not to mention a dash of "git gud noob" (figuratively) sprinkled all over the place as evidenced in the very post I'm quoting.

    It's all very reminiscent of past conflicts I've witnessed involving things like the addition of new classes to ESO, class balance, and survival mode in Fallout 4. Some people just can't understand anything that isn't about "beating the game" and wonder why people get mad when they suggest just playing on easy mode if you're not all about "winning".

    Well the original topic of this thread isn't about "winning". In fact, it's about taking the focus off of "winning" and putting it on the process of getting there. The idea is to make the gameplay more fun instead of just the cheap gratification of killing the final boss with ever higher DPS numbers.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • JumpmanLane
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    LordGavus wrote: »
    Just gonna throw this out there.
    My guild, and many others, do naked and afraid runs of vet dungeons.
    That is no gear and no weapons, you can only use what you pick up in the dungeon.
    Now, if we can complete these basically naked, it seems to me like any build is viable. Ultimately it just comes down to player skill.

    Vet trials require some reasonable gear, but for the vast majority of the content you can do pretty much whatever you want.

    Man that actually sounds like fun. Lol. Great idea 💡
  • Lysette
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    LordGavus wrote: »
    Just gonna throw this out there.
    My guild, and many others, do naked and afraid runs of vet dungeons.
    That is no gear and no weapons, you can only use what you pick up in the dungeon.
    Now, if we can complete these basically naked, it seems to me like any build is viable. Ultimately it just comes down to player skill.

    Vet trials require some reasonable gear, but for the vast majority of the content you can do pretty much whatever you want.

    lol - that is even a nice idea for soloing normal content - thanks for that idea, I will try that out occasionally. i even have a character, where I'm not that happy with - maybe I will respec him for doing the "naked and afraid approach" - and see which attribute distribution works best for a naked and afraid challenge.
    Edited by Lysette on March 30, 2020 8:29AM
  • Grianasteri
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    No one forces you to adopt the meta. Its a choice, your choice.

    You can complete most content in game with non meta builds, especially if you group up with like minded souls. I have 18 characters and most of them are themed, non meta, fun builds - most of those builds work, as in allow me to clear vet content. I dont take them into vet dlc hard mode, it would seem counter intuitive if you didnt need to build into the meta in order to complete the hardest end game content in the game.

    Below the few meta sets, there is generally a quite large number of sets that facilitate dps thats really quite close to those meta sets, especially for the average gamer.

    Below that, there are of course a ton of sets which most folk with experience are unlikely to use, unless of course they are indeed making a themed, non meta, fun build, which I have, multiple times. Its very enjoyable. Try it.

    The meta just means whatever the popular content providers have tested that results in the highestg dps, just because a set does 1000 more damage on average than another, doesnt mean that lower dps set should be discarded. Live a little, chill out.
  • Wifeaggro13
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    Glurin wrote: »
    Yet for the sake of argument let’s say you DID know the BiS builds for PvP and PvE. Why wouldn’t you want to run them?

    If you have to ask, you'll never understand.

    There shouldn't even be a "right" build. That's the spirit behind play as you want. You can play builds A, B, C, or all the way down the alphabet and then some, but you shouldn't be in a position where you've just cut your whole leg off if you don't play build M. Sure M can put out more damage than any other. That's perfectly reasonable. But if I chose to play build A, I should still be able to hold my own and keep up with him.

    The problem was never build a does not keep up with buil b. The core broken issue is zos was so short sighted they designed a whole game around one role. Tanks ,healing utility and Cc should all be equally important in combat design. Homogenized classes and lack of any role definition is what destroyed play as you want. It's a ridiculous design for group dynamics,unfortunately it's way to deep in the weeds to fix now.
  • BXR_Lonestar
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    Khatou wrote: »
    We're entitled to tons of very interesting sets, but unfortunately they're barely usable because if we don't have a sufficient set with + in dps we don't type anything at all, it's really confusing the vision of zos for TESO, we're supposed to play what we want but now it's not really the case anymore, only the tanks and the cheat mages by ZOS have the right to get their kicks as well as the berserkers, that's what TESO wants us to play, why not give the freedom to the players to create original builds, isn't that the strength of an MMORPG ?


    You are free to play 90-95% of the game however you want to. Want to make an ice mage? Go for it. Want do make a hybrid magika nb that dual wields? Nothings stopping you. But high-end content like Vet DLC dungeons and Trials require players to be optimized for their roles, and unfortunately, that narrows down the number of builds that are viable for that content.

    I wish the number of builds that were viable at endgame phase were greater too, but not every single build can or will be optimal in all phases of the game. Endgame content is designed to lean into the trinity (tank, healer, dps), and thus, DPS players must maximize damage to be viable, even at the cost of their own survivability.
  • Wifeaggro13
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    Khatou wrote: »
    We're entitled to tons of very interesting sets, but unfortunately they're barely usable because if we don't have a sufficient set with + in dps we don't type anything at all, it's really confusing the vision of zos for TESO, we're supposed to play what we want but now it's not really the case anymore, only the tanks and the cheat mages by ZOS have the right to get their kicks as well as the berserkers, that's what TESO wants us to play, why not give the freedom to the players to create original builds, isn't that the strength of an MMORPG ?


    You are free to play 90-95% of the game however you want to. Want to make an ice mage? Go for it. Want do make a hybrid magika nb that dual wields? Nothings stopping you. But high-end content like Vet DLC dungeons and Trials require players to be optimized for their roles, and unfortunately, that narrows down the number of builds that are viable for that content.

    I wish the number of builds that were viable at endgame phase were greater too, but not every single build can or will be optimal in all phases of the game. Endgame content is designed to lean into the trinity (tank, healer, dps), and thus, DPS players must maximize damage to be viable, even at the cost of their own survivability.

    The problem is even more egregious in end game trial. You need 1 heal 1 tank the rest is optimized dps. Not much creativity flexibility or group dynamic there. Not saying trials are not hard or those end game runners are not pro. But zos design is extremely short sighted. Role diversity and homogenized gameplay has degraded end game the most.
  • volkeswagon
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    There are plenty of original builds just have to check out the set perks and piece sets together that look interesting. I have 18 toons and each one wears a different set. It's too daunting for some people to go through all the sets and find a build that works for them that's why the follow Alcast
    Edited by volkeswagon on April 2, 2020 1:28AM
  • GeorgeBlack
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    Never bro.
    The combat is based in very easy maths. The "challenge" that people call "skill" is to keep up every three months with the changes to the numbers Zos makes.

    Gameplay? Just the same burst rotation against:
    Tanks
    Warriors
    Archers
    Assassins
    Mages
    Healers
    And the same turtling rotation for:
    Tanks
    Warriors
    Archers
    Assassins
    Mages
    Healers

    And then for high skilled combat gameplay find 12-16 more skilled players, build for 1-2 aoe spam buttons and stick to the crown. Dont worry about targeting enemies! Aoe. Just stay close to crown.
    Skilled ESO combat gameplay.
    PvP.
    Edited by GeorgeBlack on April 2, 2020 2:29AM
  • ZOS_RogerJ
    ZOS_RogerJ
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    Just a friendly reminder that it’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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    Staff Post
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

    You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).
  • idk
    idk
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    Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

    You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

    What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

    Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.
    Edited by idk on April 3, 2020 1:07AM
  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
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    Different inputs should create different outputs

    /thread close
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
  • Everest_Lionheart
    Everest_Lionheart
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    idk wrote: »
    Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

    You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

    What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

    Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

    As with all games the “meta” is there for the average player. In a copycat world everyone is looking for the quickest and most efficient way to climb up the rankings so to speak. The top players in the game see things completely differently.

    The average player grabs a build with a goal in mind, say if I run this build with this equip and these skills I can hit XX dps and compete this part of the game. It’s reactionary, generic and never unique. It’s a safe style of play, tried, tested and it works.

    The top player already knows they will get XX dps in a certain situation and XY dps in another. They know how the situation unfolds in front of them. They have a plan in place before entering that vet dungeon. They aren’t striving for an outcome, they already know the outcome and it’s just execution of a plan. It’s a whole other level of preparation and it works, but nothing about acquiring the skills or knowledge was in any way easy.

    This is the difference and why the very best players can stray as far as they want from the meta and put up mind blowing numbers. The average player would probably die in 2 seconds playing the same build. That’s why “meta” builds are so popular. Nobody wants to go outside of the box because the learning curve is too steep.
  • Khatou
    Khatou
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    The most frustrating thing about this pvp game is that we all end up becoming a kind of tank instead of having to play our part...
    Everstorm wrote: »
    This game has an ocean of singleplayer orientated content. You can experiment there to your heart's content. It's actually my favorite part of the game.

    For the EVP I'm not saying, although 2 points annoy me, from the point of view of class freedom, archer is very complicated, playable, but difficult to bring a good DPS to the dungeon group often longer (yet feeling to do big damage) than if we play the cheat trick of the moment, on the one hand if the game seems to go in this direction for the EVP, the archers will already be trained there.
    Another point, if you want to play Ice mage, yes there is a way, you might say, but if you want to play the ice stick, there again, it's a problem because of a choice made by the devs, not to mention the loss of a lot of passive against the other classes with branches closer to their concept,

    For me the staffs should have had a choice of direction of use, DPS branch or tanking and recovery stick as such.

    Otherwise for the subject, in PVP the mages plant all the possibilities to offer themselves an original gameplay, because abused in damage, heal, shield and heal spells, from my point of view the maj should do much less damage because its last can last over time thanks to their shields and heal spells which is more complicated for the dps stam realized knowing that the mages have a stick of reta and the stam nothing ...


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