When people are gate-keeping with dummy parses, they want to make sure that you understand how to sustain your damage, but don't care how you do it - just let's see that you actually can.
Well with the way some people are fighting me on this, apparently they do care how you do it. They really shouldn't, but they do.
I have read the thread in its entirety, and no one is fighting you regarding how someone meets their damage sustain target on a dummy parse.
JumpmanLane wrote: »Yet for the sake of argument let’s say you DID know the BiS builds for PvP and PvE. Why wouldn’t you want to run them?
If you have to ask, you'll never understand.
There shouldn't even be a "right" build. That's the spirit behind play as you want. You can play builds A, B, C, or all the way down the alphabet and then some, but you shouldn't be in a position where you've just cut your whole leg off if you don't play build M. Sure M can put out more damage than any other. That's perfectly reasonable. But if I chose to play build A, I should still be able to hold my own and keep up with him.
JayKwellen wrote: »JayKwellen wrote: »Personally, I think part of it stems from people feeling perturbed about others being, in their mind, better than them solely because of "crutches" like meta builds or CP or gear or whatever, or bristling at the idea that they may have to do something other than exactly what they want to reach certain levels of achievement -- this insidious idea that rather than equal opportunity to achieve something, instead achievement itself should be guaranteed. This idea that anything which challenges someones own individuality is somehow an attack on their own worthiness and value as a player. It's rather weird and infantile tbqh.
Here's where you're going wrong. "Equal opportunity to achieve something" should not mean "You have the choice to use this build or die." That's not diversity or choice, and it sure as hell isn't "play as you want". The so called RP builds should be viable even for difficult content. (Within reason of course.) Build diversity isn't about showing drastically different DPS meter results or what name is engraved on your metal undewear. Far from it. You should be killing stuff within a similar time span whether you use a staff or a sword or a bow. The diversity is in how you get there. It's the reason we can use any class to fill any role as opposed to being stuck as a tank just because you picked DK on the character creation screen.
Why?
I mean, don't think that "choose this or die" is an acceptable outcome either, but neither do I believe RP builds should perform equally as builds specifically optimized for a certain function. If you believe outcomes should be the same despite the input, then that's really no different than saying someone who chooses to spend four years to become a nurse should have the same earning power and scope of practice as someone who spent 12-16 years to become a physician. What's the point of putting in different amounts of effort if everyone ends up in the same place anyway? Different inputs should create different outputs.
[snip]
Diversity means more than just "equal outcome". The range of results should be just as diverse as the range of inputs. If every build, no matter what its purpose, is able to achieve the same exact outcome then that is literally the opposite of diversity. It's a type of forced parity in which everyone and everything is the same, and it robs everyone of the ability to actually be diverse or unique, as, like I've said, anything you do will create the same result.
I literally can't even imagine a worse way to kill unique and diverse playstyles than to forcably homogenized the entire game and create a situation in which everyone is the same regardless of the choices they make.
I didn't say equal outcome. You, [removed tags] and everyone else need to stop putting words in my mouth.
Oddly it is you that is putting words into our mouth as I never said you suggested equal outcome and tmbrinks indicated the same for them.
That's true. You didn't use the exact words "equal outcome". You said:Zos gave us "play as you want" but that never meant every possible build would be optimal or even close to it. A great example is someone that wants do have a tanky build should not be able to put out the same amount of damage as a glass cannon.
(God how I hate that every argument has to be so literal now. And I'm using the original definition of literal in that statement, not the new one that says literal is virtual.)
It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.
When people are gate-keeping with dummy parses, they want to make sure that you understand how to sustain your damage, but don't care how you do it - just let's see that you actually can.
Well with the way some people are fighting me on this, apparently they do care how you do it. They really shouldn't, but they do.
I have read the thread in its entirety, and no one is fighting you regarding how someone meets their damage sustain target on a dummy parse.
Oh that's complete ***. No offense, but that's exactly what they've been doing all day today. Although given that we need disclaimers on everything these days, I suppose I should specify that by that statement I do not mean that the topic is strictly about dummy parses.
@JumpmanLane, the very fact that people clamor to run BiS in PvP just confirms what I've been saying. When you narrow that gap between BiS and everything else, the game becomes less about the build and more about the player.
It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.
Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.
Beyond that, and aside from a few off-mentions of sets, no one is specifically telling you what builds to run. No one is saying you have to run set X, or use ability Y. What set(s) do you think people are trying to force you into? What abilities do you think people are trying to force you into?
This entire thread, the common theme has been, "There are some sets and abilities that perform better than others, and those are the ones that are currently being used due to them doing best." You response has been, "I shouldn't have to - I should have a chance to complete all tiers of content with all available sets and abilities provided by the game."
So, my question is to you: How does this happen? How do we get from our current meta to your ideal scenario? Part of providing feedback is not only insight to the current issues, but also possible solutions. It would look something like this: "Ability X was changed to increase the cost from 200 magicka to 210 magicka with the damage staying the same to bring the skill in line with Ability Z. If you instead decrease the damage bonus from 12% to 10%, it would still decrease the over-all damage in a given time frame and bring it in line with ability Z. This would allow Class B to still perform equally to Class A, which would only benefit from the original change."
So - without going into every single set to give us change details - what specifically would you change to make all gear have an equal viability (accounting for player skill gap) at all tiers of content?
, the very fact that people clamor to run BiS in PvP just confirms what I've been saying. When you narrow that gap between BiS and everything else, the game becomes less about the build and more about the player.
It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.
Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.
Not at all. I just thought it was a great comparison as those builds should not perform anywhere close to each other. After all, you are literally suggesting all builds perform close to each other and that comparison shows that they should not.
But good try.
So, my question is to you: How does this happen? How do we get from our current meta to your ideal scenario? Part of providing feedback is not only insight to the current issues, but also possible solutions. It would look something like this: "Ability X was changed to increase the cost from 200 magicka to 210 magicka with the damage staying the same to bring the skill in line with Ability Z. If you instead decrease the damage bonus from 12% to 10%, it would still decrease the over-all damage in a given time frame and bring it in line with ability Z. This would allow Class B to still perform equally to Class A, which would only benefit from the original change."
So - without going into every single set to give us change details - what specifically would you change to make all gear have an equal viability (accounting for player skill gap) at all tiers of content?
You're asking for a simple solution to a rather complex problem. Sadly, there isn't one. It's going to take more than a slight increase in magicka cost on ability x.
It is a great comparison showing how this game works and should but does not imply you are saying those two builds should perform equally.
Bull. That is exactly what you were implying and you know it. You made that statement and the following comparison in response to a statement that a wider variety of builds should still be viable as opposed to just meta and meta offshoots.
Not at all. I just thought it was a great comparison as those builds should not perform anywhere close to each other. After all, you are literally suggesting all builds perform close to each other and that comparison shows that they should not.
But good try.
Then either your comparison has no relevance to this conversation, or you just made the same implication again. Which is it?
You shouldn’t be asking ZOS for nerfs concerning your refusing to be competitive in a competitive environment.
JayKwellen wrote: »You shouldn’t be asking ZOS for nerfs concerning your refusing to be competitive in a competitive environment.
This right here is what I consider this whole argument to be, once you distill it down to its bases elements.
People know, or at least have a general idea, of what it required of them. They know what builds and sets will work best -- and they simply don't care.
I stead of adjusting to the game, they want the game to adjust to them. They want the game to work around their own personal desires, and expect the game itself to be modified when those desires don't align with reality, even if it comes at the expense of everyone else. Their personal demands should be met and catered to, while everyone else should be made to suffer the consequences.
That, or they simply wish to attain the same level of achievement as others without doing the same work everyone had to.
It's a mindset that's as monumentally self-centered as it is harmful.
Just gonna throw this out there.
My guild, and many others, do naked and afraid runs of vet dungeons.
That is no gear and no weapons, you can only use what you pick up in the dungeon.
Now, if we can complete these basically naked, it seems to me like any build is viable. Ultimately it just comes down to player skill.
Vet trials require some reasonable gear, but for the vast majority of the content you can do pretty much whatever you want.
Just gonna throw this out there.
My guild, and many others, do naked and afraid runs of vet dungeons.
That is no gear and no weapons, you can only use what you pick up in the dungeon.
Now, if we can complete these basically naked, it seems to me like any build is viable. Ultimately it just comes down to player skill.
Vet trials require some reasonable gear, but for the vast majority of the content you can do pretty much whatever you want.
JumpmanLane wrote: »Yet for the sake of argument let’s say you DID know the BiS builds for PvP and PvE. Why wouldn’t you want to run them?
If you have to ask, you'll never understand.
There shouldn't even be a "right" build. That's the spirit behind play as you want. You can play builds A, B, C, or all the way down the alphabet and then some, but you shouldn't be in a position where you've just cut your whole leg off if you don't play build M. Sure M can put out more damage than any other. That's perfectly reasonable. But if I chose to play build A, I should still be able to hold my own and keep up with him.
We're entitled to tons of very interesting sets, but unfortunately they're barely usable because if we don't have a sufficient set with + in dps we don't type anything at all, it's really confusing the vision of zos for TESO, we're supposed to play what we want but now it's not really the case anymore, only the tanks and the cheat mages by ZOS have the right to get their kicks as well as the berserkers, that's what TESO wants us to play, why not give the freedom to the players to create original builds, isn't that the strength of an MMORPG ?
BXR_Lonestar wrote: »We're entitled to tons of very interesting sets, but unfortunately they're barely usable because if we don't have a sufficient set with + in dps we don't type anything at all, it's really confusing the vision of zos for TESO, we're supposed to play what we want but now it's not really the case anymore, only the tanks and the cheat mages by ZOS have the right to get their kicks as well as the berserkers, that's what TESO wants us to play, why not give the freedom to the players to create original builds, isn't that the strength of an MMORPG ?
You are free to play 90-95% of the game however you want to. Want to make an ice mage? Go for it. Want do make a hybrid magika nb that dual wields? Nothings stopping you. But high-end content like Vet DLC dungeons and Trials require players to be optimized for their roles, and unfortunately, that narrows down the number of builds that are viable for that content.
I wish the number of builds that were viable at endgame phase were greater too, but not every single build can or will be optimal in all phases of the game. Endgame content is designed to lean into the trinity (tank, healer, dps), and thus, DPS players must maximize damage to be viable, even at the cost of their own survivability.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.
You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.
You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).
What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.
Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.
This game has an ocean of singleplayer orientated content. You can experiment there to your heart's content. It's actually my favorite part of the game.