When could we play TESO for a gameplay instead of always favoring the max damage?

idk

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

As with all games the “meta” is there for the average player. In a copycat world everyone is looking for the quickest and most efficient way to climb up the rankings so to speak. The top players in the game see things completely differently.

The average player grabs a build with a goal in mind, say if I run this build with this equip and these skills I can hit XX dps and compete this part of the game. It’s reactionary, generic and never unique. It’s a safe style of play, tried, tested and it works.

The top player already knows they will get XX dps in a certain situation and XY dps in another. They know how the situation unfolds in front of them. They have a plan in place before entering that vet dungeon. They aren’t striving for an outcome, they already know the outcome and it’s just execution of a plan. It’s a whole other level of preparation and it works, but nothing about acquiring the skills or knowledge was in any way easy.

This is the difference and why the very best players can stray as far as they want from the meta and put up mind blowing numbers. The average player would probably die in 2 seconds playing the same build. That’s why “meta” builds are so popular. Nobody wants to go outside of the box because the learning curve is too steep.

Of course. You have merely gone into more detail with what separates the top players from the masses. I expect you intended that.

Everest_Lionheart

idk wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

As with all games the “meta” is there for the average player. In a copycat world everyone is looking for the quickest and most efficient way to climb up the rankings so to speak. The top players in the game see things completely differently.

The average player grabs a build with a goal in mind, say if I run this build with this equip and these skills I can hit XX dps and compete this part of the game. It’s reactionary, generic and never unique. It’s a safe style of play, tried, tested and it works.

The top player already knows they will get XX dps in a certain situation and XY dps in another. They know how the situation unfolds in front of them. They have a plan in place before entering that vet dungeon. They aren’t striving for an outcome, they already know the outcome and it’s just execution of a plan. It’s a whole other level of preparation and it works, but nothing about acquiring the skills or knowledge was in any way easy.

This is the difference and why the very best players can stray as far as they want from the meta and put up mind blowing numbers. The average player would probably die in 2 seconds playing the same build. That’s why “meta” builds are so popular. Nobody wants to go outside of the box because the learning curve is too steep.

Of course. You have merely gone into more detail with what separates the top players from the masses. I expect you intended that.

Yes it was my intention. I see so many threads on here talking about the “skill gap” from the perspective where suddenly every noob in the game is going to somehow become amazing because the developers mess around with core mechanics. The reality is the meta will change and those players have to unlearn what they have been doing and relearn a new sequence of buttons. So while all this levels the playing field for a bit eventually the experienced players will grasp the new mechanics quicker than the casual/inexperienced players and will separate from the pack a bit. But the reality, the real skill gap from the meta to the pros will always be there. The top players will probably redefine the meta and tweak it behind the scenes. Many print already have a plan seeing as how they are playing on the test server. That massive head start keeps the skill gap where it really should be. When the dust settles we’ll have a new meta be back to complaining about bugs, glitches and server performance!

Lysette

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

That is not unlike in nature as well - the most successful creatures are those near to the optimum, but as well unpredictable enough to not have a pattern others can adapt to and abuse it - I think that staying somewhat unpredictable is key with it.

Recent

I hear you op but sadly games are like the real world all politics, not much fun and complaining from the citizens

Curious_Death

when max dmg doesnt equal SKINS/PERSONALITES and etc.

Septimus_Magna

Khatou wrote: »

We're entitled to tons of very interesting sets, but unfortunately they're barely usable because if we don't have a sufficient set with + in dps we don't type anything at all, it's really confusing the vision of zos for TESO, we're supposed to play what we want but now it's not really the case anymore, only the tanks and the cheat mages by ZOS have the right to get their kicks as well as the berserkers, that's what TESO wants us to play, why not give the freedom to the players to create original builds, isn't that the strength of an MMORPG ?

I agree its a shame that many cool sets are not used. The problem is that if ZOS would make sustain harder to force players to run something other than pure damage sets. Good players would run minimal sustain and less experienced players would need more sustain, maybe from a 5pc bonus or mundus stone. In this case you increase the gap between the Godslayer and average Joe even more.

As a tank its also not common to run a sustain set because managing resources while tanking is generally speaking rather easy. Most tanks run Ebon, Lord Warden and something like Yoln/Alkosh/Morag Tong to boost group damage as much as possible.

Healers are specced more towards sustain but also mainly run sets that boosts group dps, usually something like Olorime and Jorvuld. Sometimes one healer runs Worm but thats about it for sustain sets in most groups.

Khatou

oups petit fail au-dessus de la citation...

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

"the best players" still have to be real players, not the kind who say they're good, using a multitude of addons to be able to be good..

Lysette

Khatou wrote: »

oups petit fail au-dessus de la citation...

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

"the best players" still have to be real players, not the kind who say they're good, using a multitude of addons to be able to be good..

It is anyway questionable how "good" a player is who dies a couple times every day on a regular basis - to me this is just ridiculous. it might be fun, I give them that - but how good is a hero who dies on a regular basis - not much of hero to me.

JamuThatsWho

You CAN play however you want, but there will always be a best option for every set-up.

JumpmanLane

Lysette wrote: »

Khatou wrote: »

oups petit fail au-dessus de la citation...

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

"the best players" still have to be real players, not the kind who say they're good, using a multitude of addons to be able to be good..

It is anyway questionable how "good" a player is who dies a couple times every day on a regular basis - to me this is just ridiculous. it might be fun, I give them that - but how good is a hero who dies on a regular basis - not much of hero to me.

I watched a fool die to a MUD crab today. He had a cool serial killer-type name too. Like he set foot in Tamriel to wreck some shop. But the mud crab got him before he could.

I thought, "That mud crab don't know who he KILLED." While I was laughing to my self he rezzed out. He went right back at it. He almost got dropped again. But I felt sorry for him and slid him a cauterize. The fool angrily asked, "Wtf was that!" And told ME don't be using skills that affect his toon NEAR him.

I WAS gonna challenge to fool to a duel, cause I don't accept back sass from scrubs...but, I let the fool live.

Vaoh

JayKwellen wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

You shouldn’t be asking ZOS for nerfs concerning your refusing to be competitive in a competitive environment.

This right here is what I consider this whole argument to be, once you distill it down to its bases elements.

People know, or at least have a general idea, of what it required of them. They know what builds and sets will work best -- and they simply don't care.

I stead of adjusting to the game, they want the game to adjust to them. They want the game to work around their own personal desires, and expect the game itself to be modified when those desires don't align with reality, even if it comes at the expense of everyone else. Their personal demands should be met and catered to, while everyone else should be made to suffer the consequences.

That, or they simply wish to attain the same level of achievement as others without doing the same work everyone had to.

It's a mindset that's as monumentally self-centered as it is harmful.

@JayKwellen Not only that. ZOS has actually catered to these players.

I haven’t played other MMO games but I have never known a game to fundamentally change its combat balance to cater to bad players. Not casuals.... but bad players who complain loudly. This is a crowd of people who want everything handed to them.

For example, I began playing Smite about 4 months ago. I was getting slaughtered for 1-2 months before I really began to get a solid grip on the flow of combat, gameplay, building items effectively, etc. There is a large skill gap (something ESO used to have) in its PvP. I find that it will take me a far longer time to compete with the long-time players too which is a very good thing. There is a natural progression of crossing the skill gap which has been incredibly fun. Also the game performs fantastically. ESO used to be the same but in the past 3 years has turned into the opposite.

Vaoh

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

For Godslayer you need to take into account you’re talking about a non-console run though.

On console there’s only 1 Godslayer run which has been accomplished. That achievement is a different beast due mainly to a lack of gear-swapping add-ons (on console things can slow down immensely when trying to swap after fights so it takes a lot of time), players crashing (common), fps drops (makes it hard to have a perfect rotation or perfectly execute certain mechanics), long load screens (guaranteed), and a host of bugs caused probably by performance-related issues (adds/bosses using abilities with delayed or no animations, etc). And if you aren’t on a PS4 Pro or Xbox One X.... good luck lol.
I’ve completed vSS HM portals and came back up to allies who were black silhouettes for 5 seconds and adds who stayed invisible all the way until they died, all I could do was spam Unstable Wall of Elements because there was nothing to target.

As for everything else like TTT, GH, IR, I totally agree. Ive even done an IR run and TTT run where the group was not even close to optimized and played safe. No need for BiS.

On console everything needs to be top notch to get Godslayer because of all of the performance issues console players experience. So maybe like 99.9% of content can be done without BiS gear Hopefully console will get loadouts one day so we don’t have to scavenge through our inventories to put on our gear/skills every time.

DarkPicture

U have choice, just play what u want...

TheFM

The amount of entitlement here is Astounding, it reminds me of people who think they should get a six pack by doing five minutes of ab workouts once a week.

Welcome to life, where practice makes perfect. Either you deal with it, or don't get Maximum results.

Lysette

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Khatou wrote: »

oups petit fail au-dessus de la citation...

idk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lol, people take the “meta” a little too seriously. I did a Godslayer run a few weeks ago where I played a Magicka Warden Ice Mage DPS, and wore the Ice Furnace set for half the trial. I wouldn’t attempt to score push on that character, but we had over 3 mins to spare on the speed run timer.

You can literally play anything you want and complete all the content in this game. It just takes some practice, research and a lot of testing to make things work if it is not the typical flavor of the month build (where someone else has done all the research and testing).

What is funny is top players do not take meta seriously. Granted, they somewhat define it but what really happens is they test, test, test to get their build as good as they can get it. Even playing the same classes one might fight different builds among the top players. I have seen it.

Edit: I have also seen top players not using what most seem to think is meta. I am not suggesting it is 100% different but certainly shows what thinking for oneself can do. That is what is funniest.

"the best players" still have to be real players, not the kind who say they're good, using a multitude of addons to be able to be good..

It is anyway questionable how "good" a player is who dies a couple times every day on a regular basis - to me this is just ridiculous. it might be fun, I give them that - but how good is a hero who dies on a regular basis - not much of hero to me.

I watched a fool die to a MUD crab today. He had a cool serial killer-type name too. Like he set foot in Tamriel to wreck some shop. But the mud crab got him before he could.

I thought, "That mud crab don't know who he KILLED." While I was laughing to my self he rezzed out. He went right back at it. He almost got dropped again. But I felt sorry for him and slid him a cauterize. The fool angrily asked, "Wtf was that!" And told ME don't be using skills that affect his toon NEAR him.

I WAS gonna challenge to fool to a duel, cause I don't accept back sass from scrubs...but, I let the fool live.

You would wonder how many run around with white weapons and incomplete gear, no food or drink and no idea of how the game works. i see plenty dying to enemies which shouldn't be a problem at all - but they still do. Not to talk about using traitless gear with no enchantment on it - some just don't get it early in the game that this can be done-

Kalik_Gold

Overland content / Questing.

Khatou

Browart wrote: »

U have choice, just play what u want...

it's hard to play that context when everyone's going on youtube looking for the cheesiest stuff of the moment...

DarkPicture

Khatou wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

U have choice, just play what u want...

it's hard to play that context when everyone's going on youtube looking for the cheesiest stuff of the moment...

And your problem is? Nobody tells u to play some specific sets/build or smth. Your arguments doesnt make any sense.

Khatou

Browart wrote: »

Khatou wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

U have choice, just play what u want...

it's hard to play that context when everyone's going on youtube looking for the cheesiest stuff of the moment...

And your problem is? Nobody tells u to play some specific sets/build or smth. Your arguments doesnt make any sense.

Because you don't try to understand it, because when you want to play something else, that what youtube or ZOS obliges has played, it's hardly if you can play your "archetype", but it's on it's not those who play the abused meta of the moment who can understand those who would like to be able to play originality.

Khatou

All you want is to be able to play what you want, HOW the game is sold and not how ZOS wants you to play it !!!

Khatou

I raise this subject again to say that playing this way in no CP is no longer possible, it has clearly become free ***** (sorry to mention it this way, but no other example possible ! ), without forgetting that probably 3/4 coming in PVP plays without prepared stuff !!!

The resistance doesn't work anymore, out of the tank and still... The next update will make things even more catastrophic, the no CP would have no reason to exist at all, given how it started.

I think, it's high time to stop the DPS race and create a real possibility on the gameplay and not the kikoo DPS.

The pvp is all about knowing that class, but if the game doesn't allow it to turn directly in that direction, what's the point of offering Pvp? That's all, except PvP, it's like going to the slaughterhouse.

@zos Just to know, you play the game a little bit, to see how it looks?

amm7sb14_ESO

carlos424 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

No one is stopping you from doing whatever you want.
Just dont expect to clear the hardest Content with whatever you choose to equip and think About selecting normal mode for experiencing all Content in PvE instead of vet.

"You can do whatever you want, just not everything you want."

To be blunt, what is the alternative to this setup?

If you could clear the hardest veteran trials using nothing but white "Ornate" gear and 8k DPS, what would even be the point of having different difficulty tiers?

It's more a matter of degrees. I don't think anyone is asking to clear the hardest vet trials in "Ornate gear and 8k DPS". But the difference between this month's optimal setup and a sub-optimal one shouldn't be such that the later is stuck in normals. You shouldn't have to use meta builds just to have a shot at clearing the more difficult content.

You can do most vet stuff in suboptimal gear, and you can get the best sets in norma trials. Normal Cloudrest and Sunspire are probably the two most farmed trials, which have most of the “bis” gear. The difference between perfected and non perfected gear is actually pretty minimal, and shouldn’t stop anyone from completing any vet content. Then you have sets like mother’s sorrow which can be obtained over land. To me, the bigger issue is why ZOS keeps putting out a few sets every year that are OP, and raise top end dps. I guess it is to sell chapters. But obtaining these sets is not really the problem. They make them easily obtainable.

So your response to concerns about lack of build variety is to claim that variety exists because you can just use non-perfected versions of the sets?

*sigh*

thorwyn

I think, it's high time to stop the DPS race and create a real possibility on the gameplay and not the kikoo DPS.

The pvp is all about knowing that class, but if the game doesn't allow it to turn directly in that direction, what's the point of offering Pvp? That's all, except PvP, it's like going to the slaughterhouse.

DPS *is* gameplay. ESO is a skill based game. And in any PvP scenario, the player with a higher skill level will beat his opponent, whether it is aim (FPS), knowledge (chess) or optimzed rotation (ESO). Complaining about that is like complaining about the accuracy of an NBA player that you can not beat in a 1v1.
What changes would you suggest? How should they change "gameplay" to make PvP more appealing to you?

Raudgrani

I never understood why some people play "their own builds", if they don't work at all?

We did a ridiculous "carry run" with a random in Frostvault yesterday, non HM of course. We had this guy with a female toon wearing a Nord Bather's towel and a pointy hat, having the title "Duelist". Dual wielding (with DW abilities), and backbaring a shock staff. CP810. He/she died to everything, everywhere. And spent every bossfight - and the whole "laser phase" - dead on the ground. Even died from all and any sort of trashmob along the way. We didn't kick, because we basically didn't need him, and as it makes many people sad - we agreed to let him tag along, despite his bad performance.

But it makes you wonder. If you are that guy, won't you at least for a moment wonder WHY you are so "bad"? I mean, your build it like half of what you can do, and still sticking to that is like admitting you are a very, very bad player.

Of course you can experiment and have fun though. I once ran Heem-Jas, Dead Water Guild and Balorgh on a Nord StamDK for a while. It was extremely fun, and worked very well in vet non-DLC dungeons, and even a few DLC ones. Leaping and leaping all the time, and actually doing decent damage. I had whispers and such from randoms, asking me how the **** I was able to use the leap so often.
Of course a build like that doesn't work when you are burning some 80 million boss in a trial, and it doesn't benefit you at like Fang Lair vet/hm at the last boss. But for most other things, it's stupid fun - and best of all, you let the tank do the work to round up all the trash you spread across the dungeon with your leaps. They love it.

Athyrium93

It's not hard to hit 20k dps, I mean most healers can hit +20k dps without a single damage skill, just incidental damage from support skills, and that includes wearing healing sets, if a dps can't hit at least 20k the problem isn't balance or ZOS or gear sets, [snip] And you know what, 20k dps can clear everything except vet trails. If you want to do vet trails and hardmodes and trinities, yeah your going to have to build for it, but when a heavy armour bow/bow build can hit 20k (don't ask it's a PVP experiment) without a ton of CP behind it, then yeah, you should be able to hit AT LEAST 20k with a weird off meta build..... And if not you should look first at your skill level before blaming ZOS...

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Everest_Lionheart

Raudgrani wrote: »

I never understood why some people play "their own builds", if they don't work at all?

We did a ridiculous "carry run" with a random in Frostvault yesterday, non HM of course. We had this guy with a female toon wearing a Nord Bather's towel and a pointy hat, having the title "Duelist". Dual wielding (with DW abilities), and backbaring a shock staff. CP810. He/she died to everything, everywhere. And spent every bossfight - and the whole "laser phase" - dead on the ground. Even died from all and any sort of trashmob along the way. We didn't kick, because we basically didn't need him, and as it makes many people sad - we agreed to let him tag along, despite his bad performance.

But it makes you wonder. If you are that guy, won't you at least for a moment wonder WHY you are so "bad"? I mean, your build it like half of what you can do, and still sticking to that is like admitting you are a very, very bad player.

Of course you can experiment and have fun though. I once ran Heem-Jas, Dead Water Guild and Balorgh on a Nord StamDK for a while. It was extremely fun, and worked very well in vet non-DLC dungeons, and even a few DLC ones. Leaping and leaping all the time, and actually doing decent damage. I had whispers and such from randoms, asking me how the **** I was able to use the leap so often.
Of course a build like that doesn't work when you are burning some 80 million boss in a trial, and it doesn't benefit you at like Fang Lair vet/hm at the last boss. But for most other things, it's stupid fun - and best of all, you let the tank do the work to round up all the trash you spread across the dungeon with your leaps. They love it.

You are carrying guys like that and meanwhile I’m over here grinding like crazy to get my DPS over the 50K mark so I don’t slow down any vet runs (PUG or organized.) have 3 toons right now, one at 40K (magplar) another at 42 (Stamwarden) and 45K (MagDK)

Now those builds don’t stray too far from the meta. The magplar is a solo centric build that performs well in groups. The stamwarden is a converted solo setup with a large toolkit to adapt to different content. The MagDK is still fresh only a few weeks old made specifically for trials.

Kind of kicking myself for not jumping into vet content sooner because I’m lacking monster sets for any of my builds right now.

amm7sb14_ESO

Browart wrote: »

Khatou wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

U have choice, just play what u want...

it's hard to play that context when everyone's going on youtube looking for the cheesiest stuff of the moment...

And your problem is? Nobody tells u to play some specific sets/build or smth. Your arguments doesnt make any sense.

Lots of people tell you to play those sets and builds and will go as far as kicking you out of content if you don't adhere to them.

amm7sb14_ESO

My thoughts on this subject:

-Metas, and the need both by game design and by requirements set by the community to run them just to participate, are the single biggest turnoff to me in MMO's, and why I rarely to never play MMO's anymore outside of this game. And I'm only playing this game because it's an Elder Scrolls game

-Metas go against the entire principle of Elder Scrolls, which is to be able to build your character in any way you see fit. Wood Elf tank? Heavy Armored magic user? Dual Wielding tank? Orc healer? All possible, and more, in TES games. But NOT Elder Scrolls Online, because ESO is not actually an Elder Scrolls game, it's a generic MMO format with an ES skin for $$$. Unfortunately, I'm equal parts stubborn and a sucker for the name brand, so here I am in ESO since beta.

-Metas simply aren't fun, at least for me. The #1 appeal for me in RPG's and MMO's is to make individualized and personalized characters that fit 1. My own role-playing themes and concepts 2. Are designed for gameplay purposes that I find "cool" or fun, and the entire concept of a "meta" takes that away by forcing me into the same builds as everyone else, removing any semblance of personalization or individuality. Whether that be the same race / class combos, the same skill bars and rotations, the same attribute distributions, the same gear sets, or even group setups that limit the amount of x or y class in the party. None of that is even the least bit appealing to me, and is actually the opposite, its an active turnoff that keeps me away from MMO's and will eventually top the list of reasons that have driven me away when I finally make the decision to leave this game for good.

-People take this game, and others, faaaaaaar too seriously. Whether it is raid leaders who yell and scream and blame people for mistakes, whether its people in this thread or others constantly talking about "hard work" and blah blah blah. This is a *game*. First and foremost, it should be *fun*, but so many in gaming communities have forgotten that and think that by getting a speed run leader board score they are the equivalent of Michael Jordan winning a championship or something. Thats great, I understand that for some people, the high leader board scores and the titles and the achievements, for them that is fun. And you should have that. But for most of us, getting yelled at, hearing our friends get yelled at, being *told* what sets and rotations to have, and just in general being in a stressful environment is *not* fun. I work hard in my real life. I work hard to advance in my career, to pay my bills, to advance in multiple areas of my life and to have a stable and secure life for myself and my one day family. In my game, I want relaxation and stress free. "Meta" does not allow that.

-I literally could not care less about leaderboards, speed runs, titles, achievements. I don't even know what TTT / IR / GR is. I don't even know if I got it right. And I have 0 desire to reach that with my characters, and I roll with a guild that has the same view. Therefore, I have 0 need to build into metas to achieve that, yet so many - OUTSIDE of my guild at that, so people I will never group with - still love to have a go at my builds and tell me how wrong I am doing things. I could ignore them, since I'm not playing with them and my builds or their builds have no impact on each other, but it's still annoying and frustrating in forums, FB groups, and even in game chat, to constantly be told how wrong I am doing things because it's not the "meta" way and because I reject using specific sets because they are not what I want to use. P.S. my guild knows what sets I use, and even the "selfish" tank sets I use they want me to continue using because they know that those sets have value to.

-I don't even play DD's so dps #'s mean nothing to me. Again, I have 0 desire to crank out 90k dps. That's so much overkill and the methods to get to a level like that have 0 enjoyment factor or appeal for me.

-In my OWN experiences, the meta only even factors in if you want that leader board stuff, and scores and "trinity" (whatever tf that is) and titles and achievements. Meta is *not* necessary for content competition, and that includes vet DLC trials. HM maybe.

-What *IS* required for vet dlc trial completion is an *intentionally designed* build. That means if I am tanking, I can't get cute and try to bow / dual wield tank (although there is an argument to be made for a DW back bar), I can't get cute trying to tank in light or medium armor, I need to be geared up in heavy armor, with skill bars that taunt, sustain, debut, buff, and CC. And my sets shouldn't be Rattlecage, because that goes against the job description of a tank, because I don't need to boost my damage.

-I think too many people take the meta way too seriously, whether that's the people that try to enforce it, or the people that say you simply can't play in this game without it. The meta absolutely is necessary for leaderboard style runs where people are pushing scores, titles, achievements, etc. And you know what? The meta is 100% appropriate there. If you are shooting for a top performance run, you need the setup that you can perform best in. At that point you literally are playing the math game.

But the problem comes from the fact that many, many people impose their leader board run standards on people who just want to play and complete content and don't *care* about scores. Some of that is intentional, some of that is just splash that comes from sites like Alcast / Dottz / Nefas / Xynode / Hack, etc. and people seeing that and thinking it applies everywhere. It does not. And a lot of us are frustrated with having leaderboard run standards imposed on us for non leaferboard content.

*Saying we have overland questing and normal modes for experimental role play builds is not valid. Those areas of the game can be completed with no armor and nothing beyond light attacking. Vet is there for a reason, and that reason is NOT so it can be gatekept behind meta players who want it all to themselves. Vet is the next step up for *any* players, because it is simply a level progression. Gatekeep your leaderboard and achievement runs - that's where running a meta is necessary and appropriate. But gatekeeping simple vet content behind meta-build performance is not appropriate. Vet is the next level progression for players of all types, while leaderboards are there for those that want to push themselves even further and for further reward.

-if you do think that metas should apply to all vet content, then my response to that is that zos should just eliminate race / class / sets and builds altogether. No more Dragonknights or Nightblades or Sorcs or Necros. Since we are all supposed to wear the same sets, and have the same rotations and skills that all do the same effects, I propose that zos eliminate builds altogether, and from now on, character selection is no longer Breton / High Elf / Khajiit etc. or DK, Nero, Warden, etc. but rather you select from one of 4 classes:

Tank
Mag DD
Stam DD
Healer

These choices come pre-equipped with the skill bars and armors and weapons and race and attribute distribution and glyphs and traits and everything else already pre-set. There's no more class or weapon skills, your bars come pre-loaded. For example, if you're a tank, your skill bar will simply be "Taunt", "Major Resolve", "Major Breach & Fracture", "Minor Maim", and "Immobilize". NOT "Pierce Armor", "Shield Slash", etc, but just generic effects on your skill bar. You come automatically equipped with the "proper" meta gear for your role, so you can never equip the off meta sets you will always be fully optimized. You'll no longer loot armor from dungeons and trials because you can't actually equip armor or weapons, it's done for you. Crafting skills are gone because the armor is already optimized for you.

Someone asked "why" would we play off-meta builds if we know they are better, and ^^^ that is why. Do you think that sounds like a fun game?

Because when you are dictating to people what sets they can and cannot wear, what skills they can and cannot have on their bar, what race they should be for their class, what attribute allocation they should have, *that* is what you are turning the game into for us. That is the type of game you are suggesting ESO be. And that is not a fun game to play.

I think that's all I wanted to say, but I have a lot of thoughts on this subject and a lot of them spinning around all at once so I may have missed some.

Everest_Lionheart

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

My thoughts on this subject:

-Metas, and the need both by game design and by requirements set by the community to run them just to participate, are the single biggest turnoff to me in MMO's, and why I rarely to never play MMO's anymore outside of this game. And I'm only playing this game because it's an Elder Scrolls game

-Metas go against the entire principle of Elder Scrolls, which is to be able to build your character in any way you see fit. Wood Elf tank? Heavy Armored magic user? Dual Wielding tank? Orc healer? All possible, and more, in TES games. But NOT Elder Scrolls Online, because ESO is not actually an Elder Scrolls game, it's a generic MMO format with an ES skin for $$$. Unfortunately, I'm equal parts stubborn and a sucker for the name brand, so here I am in ESO since beta.

-Metas simply aren't fun, at least for me. The #1 appeal for me in RPG's and MMO's is to make individualized and personalized characters that fit 1. My own role-playing themes and concepts 2. Are designed for gameplay purposes that I find "cool" or fun, and the entire concept of a "meta" takes that away by forcing me into the same builds as everyone else, removing any semblance of personalization or individuality. Whether that be the same race / class combos, the same skill bars and rotations, the same attribute distributions, the same gear sets, or even group setups that limit the amount of x or y class in the party. None of that is even the least bit appealing to me, and is actually the opposite, its an active turnoff that keeps me away from MMO's and will eventually top the list of reasons that have driven me away when I finally make the decision to leave this game for good.

-People take this game, and others, faaaaaaar too seriously. Whether it is raid leaders who yell and scream and blame people for mistakes, whether its people in this thread or others constantly talking about "hard work" and blah blah blah. This is a *game*. First and foremost, it should be *fun*, but so many in gaming communities have forgotten that and think that by getting a speed run leader board score they are the equivalent of Michael Jordan winning a championship or something. Thats great, I understand that for some people, the high leader board scores and the titles and the achievements, for them that is fun. And you should have that. But for most of us, getting yelled at, hearing our friends get yelled at, being *told* what sets and rotations to have, and just in general being in a stressful environment is *not* fun. I work hard in my real life. I work hard to advance in my career, to pay my bills, to advance in multiple areas of my life and to have a stable and secure life for myself and my one day family. In my game, I want relaxation and stress free. "Meta" does not allow that.

-I literally could not care less about leaderboards, speed runs, titles, achievements. I don't even know what TTT / IR / GR is. I don't even know if I got it right. And I have 0 desire to reach that with my characters, and I roll with a guild that has the same view. Therefore, I have 0 need to build into metas to achieve that, yet so many - OUTSIDE of my guild at that, so people I will never group with - still love to have a go at my builds and tell me how wrong I am doing things. I could ignore them, since I'm not playing with them and my builds or their builds have no impact on each other, but it's still annoying and frustrating in forums, FB groups, and even in game chat, to constantly be told how wrong I am doing things because it's not the "meta" way and because I reject using specific sets because they are not what I want to use. P.S. my guild knows what sets I use, and even the "selfish" tank sets I use they want me to continue using because they know that those sets have value to.

-I don't even play DD's so dps #'s mean nothing to me. Again, I have 0 desire to crank out 90k dps. That's so much overkill and the methods to get to a level like that have 0 enjoyment factor or appeal for me.

-In my OWN experiences, the meta only even factors in if you want that leader board stuff, and scores and "trinity" (whatever tf that is) and titles and achievements. Meta is *not* necessary for content competition, and that includes vet DLC trials. HM maybe.

-What *IS* required for vet dlc trial completion is an *intentionally designed* build. That means if I am tanking, I can't get cute and try to bow / dual wield tank (although there is an argument to be made for a DW back bar), I can't get cute trying to tank in light or medium armor, I need to be geared up in heavy armor, with skill bars that taunt, sustain, debut, buff, and CC. And my sets shouldn't be Rattlecage, because that goes against the job description of a tank, because I don't need to boost my damage.

-I think too many people take the meta way too seriously, whether that's the people that try to enforce it, or the people that say you simply can't play in this game without it. The meta absolutely is necessary for leaderboard style runs where people are pushing scores, titles, achievements, etc. And you know what? The meta is 100% appropriate there. If you are shooting for a top performance run, you need the setup that you can perform best in. At that point you literally are playing the math game.

But the problem comes from the fact that many, many people impose their leader board run standards on people who just want to play and complete content and don't *care* about scores. Some of that is intentional, some of that is just splash that comes from sites like Alcast / Dottz / Nefas / Xynode / Hack, etc. and people seeing that and thinking it applies everywhere. It does not. And a lot of us are frustrated with having leaderboard run standards imposed on us for non leaferboard content.

*Saying we have overland questing and normal modes for experimental role play builds is not valid. Those areas of the game can be completed with no armor and nothing beyond light attacking. Vet is there for a reason, and that reason is NOT so it can be gatekept behind meta players who want it all to themselves. Vet is the next step up for *any* players, because it is simply a level progression. Gatekeep your leaderboard and achievement runs - that's where running a meta is necessary and appropriate. But gatekeeping simple vet content behind meta-build performance is not appropriate. Vet is the next level progression for players of all types, while leaderboards are there for those that want to push themselves even further and for further reward.

-if you do think that metas should apply to all vet content, then my response to that is that zos should just eliminate race / class / sets and builds altogether. No more Dragonknights or Nightblades or Sorcs or Necros. Since we are all supposed to wear the same sets, and have the same rotations and skills that all do the same effects, I propose that zos eliminate builds altogether, and from now on, character selection is no longer Breton / High Elf / Khajiit etc. or DK, Nero, Warden, etc. but rather you select from one of 4 classes:

Tank
Mag DD
Stam DD
Healer

These choices come pre-equipped with the skill bars and armors and weapons and race and attribute distribution and glyphs and traits and everything else already pre-set. There's no more class or weapon skills, your bars come pre-loaded. For example, if you're a tank, your skill bar will simply be "Taunt", "Major Resolve", "Major Breach & Fracture", "Minor Maim", and "Immobilize". NOT "Pierce Armor", "Shield Slash", etc, but just generic effects on your skill bar. You come automatically equipped with the "proper" meta gear for your role, so you can never equip the off meta sets you will always be fully optimized. You'll no longer loot armor from dungeons and trials because you can't actually equip armor or weapons, it's done for you. Crafting skills are gone because the armor is already optimized for you.

Someone asked "why" would we play off-meta builds if we know they are better, and ^^^ that is why. Do you think that sounds like a fun game?

Because when you are dictating to people what sets they can and cannot wear, what skills they can and cannot have on their bar, what race they should be for their class, what attribute allocation they should have, *that* is what you are turning the game into for us. That is the type of game you are suggesting ESO be. And that is not a fun game to play.

I think that's all I wanted to say, but I have a lot of thoughts on this subject and a lot of them spinning around all at once so I may have missed some.

To be fair some classes are extremely fun to play. DW/Bow Khajiit stamwarden is my favourite by far to play. Created for Elsweyr, during Elsweyr it’s such a fun all around character that is adaptable to all forms of content. Most of the time I run solo, but I DPS for group content. I’m at 42K which is considered adequate but I am in a group that has a 50K requirement for vet progression trials. I’ll get there, thankfully it doesn’t completely kill the fun of playing it.

All around class and all around race makes things more accessible in my opinion, but there is still an identity there which is also important. I’ve got optimized class/race characters following closer to meta builds minus all the trials gear that does +\- 2K damage. A 40k magplar and 45k MagDK. Meta or not it still comes down to how you play the game. Chasing any of the popular builds won’t drastically improve anyone’s numbers anyway and most people chasing them don’t have the CP to damage or sustain at their levels. It’s best to play the game, experiment a little and learn what the skills, buffs and debuffs actually do. Read up on how they synergize together but also realize there are several ways to achieve almost the same outcome. For example whether I use cutting dive, steel tornado, rapid strikes or rending slashes as my spamable all of my parses are within ~1K of each other. If I use 3 dots as opposed to 4 on my back bar my parses all remain in the same ballpark as well.

In the end whether you read 1000 guides or not almost everyone chasing higher dmamge numbers is going to land on 3-4 of the same class/weapon skills per bar anyway leaving 1-2 spots for flexibility like a different spamable or execute on your main bar and mitigation or heals on your backbar for survival.

It is what it is though, not all skills are created equal.

thorwyn

You are carrying guys like that and meanwhile I’m over here grinding like crazy to get my DPS over the 50K mark so I don’t slow down any vet runs (PUG or organized.) have 3 toons right now, one at 40K (magplar) another at 42 (Stamwarden) and 45K (MagDK)

Are you talking about 3m/6m dummies or the 21m raid atro here?