Top players really run meta build?

iCaliban

Top players have thousands of hours into their preferred class. Its not realistic to expect the same results without that level of practice.

OrderoftheDarkness

VaranisArano wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Guys, the person asked a specific question.
Advise him to build for study. Why make a tragedy out of it. I don't play stamden or stamplar, so I can't advise it. Then you wonder why people watch videos. Because instead of answering on the forum, they get a lyrical digression, where many try to show their knowledge.

The answer is that they probably run the meta or something close to it...but they've practiced with that build, their class, and PVP in general enough that they'd do well in pretty much any type of gear.

The answer for the OP is to pick a build - their golded meta build will work as well as any other - and then practice, practice, practice.

I'm talking about the following simple OP question. GRXRG asks - So for learning at stamden or stamplar what sets i should run?
A defensive set paired with a damage one and bloodspawn?

technohic

its the same as any class. 7th, alessia, Bloodspawn would work.

It's hard to say a cookie cutter but easy to adjust as you see needs. if you're having a hard time surviving and die flush with resources when you do, add some tankiness. If you are dieing out of resources, add some sustain. As you get better, cut back on sustain or tankiness for damage, and not just stupid weapon damage tooltips. Penetration matters a lot.

Drdeath20

The way you enjoy playing is unique to you.
It would be wise to wear sets and use skills that are tailored to that style of play.

Kaartinen

No, you theorycraft your build around your playstyle and the specific situations you expect to encounter.

You generally can't just put lipstick on a pig in this game and expect success.

NBrookus

GRXRG wrote: »

This is something I've been thinking of.
We all know the current stamina pvp meta is new moon fury bloodspawn, new moon spriggan or similars still around new moon.

I copied exactly one or those builds from top players which seems to hold so easily 1vs2 or 1vs3 with those sets.
I am all golden out and the result is terrible.

I know maybe I am not a great player and might be a l2p issue, but I played a Nord stamden in heavy new moon fury Bloodspawn with over 5k weapon damage and 30k resistances and even if i keep all my buffs up and rotate my vigor and arctic blast i still receive 13k executioners, 8k frags, 10k assassin's scourge (which i don't see casted never btw) and in a 1vs2 even using los i get destroyed within seconds.

Mitigating damage is not just about eating it with resists. It's about avoiding it, anticipating it with the appropriate dodge or block, keeping your buffs and hots up, etc. Your build is fine -- altho I recommend medium armor instead -- it's about learning to play it. (Arctic Blast?) The top build in the game won't carry you; a good player will wreck people on a mediocre build that suits their playstyle.

P.S. Anyone who responds to a polite "gf" whisper asking for advice with a salty L2P or request for money is being a ***.

VaranisArano

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Guys, the person asked a specific question.
Advise him to build for study. Why make a tragedy out of it. I don't play stamden or stamplar, so I can't advise it. Then you wonder why people watch videos. Because instead of answering on the forum, they get a lyrical digression, where many try to show their knowledge.

The answer is that they probably run the meta or something close to it...but they've practiced with that build, their class, and PVP in general enough that they'd do well in pretty much any type of gear.

The answer for the OP is to pick a build - their golded meta build will work as well as any other - and then practice, practice, practice.

I'm talking about the following simple OP question. GRXRG asks - So for learning at stamden or stamplar what sets i should run?
A defensive set paired with a damage one and bloodspawn?

The OP already golded out a meta set for stam builds. Why not use that while they are practicing the PVP skills that really keep players alive and able to kill their opponents?

Thing is, we can all suggest this set or that set as a "simple" answer, but its all likely to run into the same problem as the golded meta set they were wearing: gear is not a substitute for practice.

Daffen

GRXRG wrote: »

So for learning at stamden or stamplar what sets i should run?
A defensive set paired with a damage one and bloodspawn?

Which platform and server do you play on? If you play on PC EU i can help you practice and become a better player. My @userid is @Daffen123 feel free to add me if you have questions or want to practice.

SpiderCultist

Short answer is NO

top tier players theorycraft their own builds and adjust them to their playstyle

the other day I saw a well-known PC EU nightblade running cowards + velidreth + eternal hunt and I thought "hah!" this time I might have a chance, you know what? he killed me in 2 secs

what cattle does is copy top players mindlessly without realizing they don't have the other guy hands/skill, experience, hardware and connectivity and I can tell you skill is what matters the most of all it


edit:typo

Lughlongarm

GRXRG wrote: »

This is something I've been thinking of.
We all know the current stamina pvp meta is new moon fury bloodspawn, new moon spriggan or similars still around new moon.

I copied exactly one or those builds from top players which seems to hold so easily 1vs2 or 1vs3 with those sets.
I am all golden out and the result is terrible.

I know maybe I am not a great player and might be a l2p issue, but I played a Nord stamden in heavy new moon fury Bloodspawn with over 5k weapon damage and 30k resistances and even if i keep all my buffs up and rotate my vigor and arctic blast i still receive 13k executioners, 8k frags, 10k assassin's scourge (which i don't see casted never btw) and in a 1vs2 even using los i get destroyed within seconds.

At the same time I encounter other stamden or stamcros which receive barely no damage from me and destroy me.

And when i gently ask them: wow you are so good do you mind sharing what you run?
This is their answer:
Pay me 300k or l2p.

So this made me think, maybe they run something like pariah new moon? Armor master new moon?

I don't know guys, tell me if i should still try fury new moon to learn to play better and it's just a l2p issue because I don't know anymore.

And btw i am talking of CP enabled using good CPs same in the youtube videos and so on, 81 points ironclad and master of arms etc, so the damage should be there.

Your build is top tier when it comes to potential value, no build will preform much better than that. Problem is, this setup is very advanced, it requires both outstanding resource management with heavy attacks and burst timing when your fury set is maxed. Only veteran players will be able to take full advantage of this setup.

Regarding defense - something I learned the hard way. High resistances will not give you the option to face tank damage. Good blocker on glassy setup is more tanky than bad blocker on a tanky setup.

-As a beginner, consider to play with 1H+Shield front bar. practice your block . Build enough sustain to have blocking capabilities.

-Shimmering shield will boost your defense crazy high. It should be up as much as possible(when needed).

-If you play medium armor, have the shuffle buff up all the time.

-Have a Green Balance heal for the major mending buff.

If you want, I can take a closer look at your build and give you some recommendations to try.

OrderoftheDarkness

VaranisArano wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Guys, the person asked a specific question.
Advise him to build for study. Why make a tragedy out of it. I don't play stamden or stamplar, so I can't advise it. Then you wonder why people watch videos. Because instead of answering on the forum, they get a lyrical digression, where many try to show their knowledge.

The answer is that they probably run the meta or something close to it...but they've practiced with that build, their class, and PVP in general enough that they'd do well in pretty much any type of gear.

The answer for the OP is to pick a build - their golded meta build will work as well as any other - and then practice, practice, practice.

I'm talking about the following simple OP question. GRXRG asks - So for learning at stamden or stamplar what sets i should run?
A defensive set paired with a damage one and bloodspawn?

The OP already golded out a meta set for stam builds. Why not use that while they are practicing the PVP skills that really keep players alive and able to kill their opponents?

Thing is, we can all suggest this set or that set as a "simple" answer, but its all likely to run into the same problem as the golded meta set they were wearing: gear is not a substitute for practice.

I don't mind. I just wanted to be more constructive.

BaiterOfZergs

I never run meta I always use what works for me, of course there’s only so many competitive sets so I might have at least one of them on. For the most part I make my own builds , which can be trial and error, plus it can cost tons of gold.

Only time I’ve ran a complete meta setup was with my old stamden setup using werewolf+7th+ bloodspawn but eventually took it off to run my own. I won’t say top players don’t run meta because a lot of them do and can be the main reason something get nerfed. Although at the same time I know there’s theory crafters like myself that do their own thing.

To be honest if you play long enough a lot of setups become viable , just not necessarily competitive against another player that knows what they’re doing. Anyways, I’d say learn how to play the game and learn how to play a class before you give an opinion. Like I say all the time it doesn’t matter what you’re using if you can’t make use of it.

fred4

I used to be afraid of going down a blind alley with my own off-meta builds, so I can sympathize. These days I worry much less and would encourage you to evolve your own build and playstyle. The two go hand in hand.

Duel your friends who are at the same level as you, then duel better players. This is IMO the best training. If you duel really good players, you will be overwhelmed. There is so much more than having the right gear and even the right rotation. I completely agree with the comparison to chess. You can't play chess by just knowing the rules. You need practice.

A practiced PvPer will not hesitate, ever. They know exactly what skills to cast. They have internalized their rotation. They have the experience to know when to push, when to buff, when to recover, with their specific build, their exact tankiness and their exact sustain. You're new? You'll have that 1/2 second delay here and there, as you're unsure about your next move. Baam. Now you're on the defensive - or dead. Defensive skills are much more expensive than attack skills. If you are afraid or hesitant or otherwise unable to stay on attack, you start consuming precious time and resources on defense. One of the worst beginner mistakes is probably casting buffs, shields and healing skills when not truly needed, wasting resources and wasting time where you could pressure your opponent. At least that's how it went for me. This may be a personality thing.

How do you stay on attack? There are a couple of ways. On stamplar I would say, play it super aggressively. Jabs does such a ton of AOE damage. For that reason, though, I don't think it's the best beginner class. Magplar would be much better IMO. Stamden is a class I don't play. Warden is tanky though, so I would be inclined to play it more like a DK. Heavy armor, 2H + 1H+Shield. Buffs on the back bar and get into the habit of blocking, or at least being ready to, when you have to buff up.

In any build, I tend to pay attention to my ongoing heals. The stronger HOTs you have, the longer you can stay on the attack and the more confident you can be in a straight face off. This includes the option of running Vigor on the front bar, as someone mentioned. It might include running that skill no one runs: Cutting Dive, because every animal skill heals you when the animal dies. It might include Troll King and almost 2K health regen from the Steed, gold food and Seventh Legion (run on the back bar). It used to include Lingering Health potions, before they were nerfed. It can include an Infused Restore Health enchant on your main weapon, although not ideal for stam builds.

As others have mentioned, footwork is important. Where are you in relation to your target. Are you facing them - not good - or are you off to the side or behind them - much better. You're always jostling for position. Where are the other players on the battlefield? Are there any behind you? Where is the nearest rock, resource tower, cliff-face, that you can dive to, if it gets too hot?

My main is now a magblade, but my playstyle is stamina-flavored. When I switch to my other characters, I find my skill carries over. The longer you play, the more you understand the terrain, the general gameplay of ESO and how other classes play. In other words, while theorycrafting is important, experience and skill counts for more.

By the way, when you got hit by those big hits from a stamina player, did they use Onslaught beforehand?

zDan

Throwing on a strong build won't automatically make you good, you have to LoS a lot even in a meta build since direct damage and executes are insanely strong rn. Fights also have a lot of variables, just depends who you fight and how hard they hit.

fred4

Sometimes you discover improvements for your build. I was already using high stam-sustain on my magblade and thus able to switch to Eternal Hunt without losing stats - I'd already given them up. That turned out a real winner for my playstyle, far better than defensive-ish magicka sets I'd tried, such as Buffer of the Swift or Marauder's Haste. Not very meta on magblade, though, which goes to show the value of trying stuff.

Casul

My advice to anyone who is build crafting.

Pick one aspect of a character you suck at and fill the gap.

For example if I have issues with magicka sustain on a stamden I might run shacklebreaker to ease the pressure. Another example is if I feel my defense is fine and healing is fine I would start looking into what form of offense I desire. This might be something like cryodiil ward for the major defile, or spriggan for the penetration.

Maybe offense, defense, and sustain are all decent. Then you could invest in a different form of utility such as skooma smuggler for the major expedition or powerful assault for the group buff.

I feel like a well rounded build is a key component in winning in PvP.

Vanos444

No, top players run cheat/hack builds with a little of exploit to boost.

GRXRG

I think server performance plays a big role too in my fights. Sometimes i am able to kite 2 or 3 people around walls using los, even tho rarely happens, other times i get hit by 10 range executioners.
I am behind a wall and i die when instead i should be protected by line of sight, but maybe my hitbox was still not in los and that's why i died.

One funny thing happened before, i was in imperial city, and when i run around i always rotate my buffs up in case of some sneaky nightblade which are always sneaking around. Few seconds later one guy ingage me from stealth. He stuns me and do few hits and go stealth again, i rotate my buffs and heals and i am full health ready for him, he stuns me, i break free and dodge roll immediately after and then i am dead.
I see my death recap: 7k surprise attack, 2k light attack, 10k assassin's scourge (or will dont remember) 10k incap strike, 12k executioner, all happened within a second.
So yeah i know hacks that cannot bypass the game 1 second global cooldown don't exist, so that was just a crazy desync server lag?

Those things happens so much with nightblades more than any other class, the other classes that kills me i always see the skills they casted on me, with 80% of nightblades i don't see them and they happen all together in 1 second. Can't figure out why. If even this is a l2p okay then lol. Explain me if it's normal and how to avoid it please.

OrderoftheDarkness

GRXRG wrote: »

I think server performance plays a big role too in my fights. Sometimes i am able to kite 2 or 3 people around walls using los, even tho rarely happens, other times i get hit by 10 range executioners.
I am behind a wall and i die when instead i should be protected by line of sight, but maybe my hitbox was still not in los and that's why i died.

One funny thing happened before, i was in imperial city, and when i run around i always rotate my buffs up in case of some sneaky nightblade which are always sneaking around. Few seconds later one guy ingage me from stealth. He stuns me and do few hits and go stealth again, i rotate my buffs and heals and i am full health ready for him, he stuns me, i break free and dodge roll immediately after and then i am dead.
I see my death recap: 7k surprise attack, 2k light attack, 10k assassin's scourge (or will dont remember) 10k incap strike, 12k executioner, all happened within a second.
So yeah i know hacks that cannot bypass the game 1 second global cooldown don't exist, so that was just a crazy desync server lag?

Those things happens so much with nightblades more than any other class, the other classes that kills me i always see the skills they casted on me, with 80% of nightblades i don't see them and they happen all together in 1 second. Can't figure out why. If even this is a l2p okay then lol. Explain me if it's normal and how to avoid it please.

First correct your healing to begin with. This can help you with such situations including.

JobooAGS

When I make builds, I think about what seems fun, and work around it. Sure at the end of the day, the end result is still suboptimal, but it is still serviceable and you can still have lots of fun, with practice of course.

Kelces

There are certainly weird things happening with some players. Why they won't tell you their build etc. is mostly because they don't want to reveal to others which so-called "broken" sets they use, so others would get eye to eye with those. Or if those sets are just genuinely powerful and it's something totally different, then this would become obvious if you were using them in the way they do, but failed to have similar effects.

In any case, changes would be on their way (AKA nerf hammer) and the opportunists won't have that advantage any more. Anyway, certain is that they don't like any competition.

Sanctum74

Kelces wrote: »

There are certainly weird things happening with some players. Why they won't tell you their build etc. is mostly because they don't want to reveal to others which so-called "broken" sets they use, so others would get eye to eye with those. Or if those sets are just genuinely powerful and it's something totally different, then this would become obvious if you were using them in the way they do, but failed to have similar effects.

In any case, changes would be on their way (AKA nerf hammer) and the opportunists won't have that advantage any more. Anyway, certain is that they don't like any competition.

Skilled players will and should always have an advantage, stop blaming armor sets as if they magically make players op and learn game mechanics instead. Skill and knowledge will always be better than some perceived armor set doing the work for you.

EtTuBrutus

I bet most of the "make your own build" bs ppl are in meta builds. That build is a great build. Just practice. Save clips, watch them and learn damage anticipation. After you learn to recognize that, learn how you're built to counter it.

Kelces

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

There are certainly weird things happening with some players. Why they won't tell you their build etc. is mostly because they don't want to reveal to others which so-called "broken" sets they use, so others would get eye to eye with those. Or if those sets are just genuinely powerful and it's something totally different, then this would become obvious if you were using them in the way they do, but failed to have similar effects.

In any case, changes would be on their way (AKA nerf hammer) and the opportunists won't have that advantage any more. Anyway, certain is that they don't like any competition.

Skilled players will and should always have an advantage, stop blaming armor sets as if they magically make players op and learn game mechanics instead. Skill and knowledge will always be better than some perceived armor set doing the work for you.

I am not blaiming sets, I am questioning the unwillingness to tell others what build they use. If they truly want a challenge, they should take the chance of meeting (relatively) equal opponents. But again, some are obviously not up to that kind of competition.

Edit:
And I personally don't care, since I always have my own builds and I like to play that way, even if that's far from the most effective in 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs. x. Simply because I like to pride myself of having gained certain ranks with a challenging rather than "easy-kills" build.

EtTuBrutus

When u can kill using bright throats and bone pirate, it really comes down to who youre choosing to kill really.

DUTCH_REAPER

amir412 wrote: »

Never considered myself to be at the top,
But i never ever copied a build from someone and then expected it to work magically.
That's your first mistake.

2nd thing, when i make a build i do it around the class's passives,
and choose sets that syncs well with it.

AMEN to that!

Reverb

Gear matters far less in PvP than it does for competitive pve. There is always a meta, and many players who hump that meta, but a high percentage of really effective pvp'ers in this game are wearing off-bis gear that works for them and their play style.

To borrow a line from someone else on the forums: success in eso pvp is 40% experience and situational awareness, 30% skill, and 30% gear.

ecru

OP I don't think you really understand what is going on. I don't mean in this thread, I mean in the game. You don't understand the way things work, and if you want to be truly great at something, you need to understand (completely) everything that is going on. Some good or even great players have a natural affinity towards hitting the right abilities at the right time and making the right decision to keep them alive or win a duel or kill someone or whatever, but that will only get you so far if you don't actually understand the way gear, damage, heals, and abilities in general interact with everything else. Once you make an attempt to understand that, you'll understand how to build a character and how to play. You'll also be able to recognize which purported top players crutch on broken builds and abilities that other people set up for them, who don't really understand everything that's going on, and which players are actually genuinely exceptional at the game.

Read (and understand) tooltips (and then test them, some are not accurate even today), record logs, read logs, watch videos, look at builds, record yourself, watch yourself, and never stop asking why or how everything is happening the way it is. Why did x player use y ability at that time, why didn't he do this or that, etc, record yourself and watch yourself die to figure out how to stay alive, record yourself 1vXing to figure out how to do it more effectively. Test everything. Test things on a dummy, test them on other players, test them in pvp, etc. Ignore anyone who says that you can't learn anything from any kind of test or says that some form of data isn't important or doesn't matter, because everything is important and everything matters if you want to have a complete understanding of something.

Once you figure out exactly what the *** is going on, you'll be able to figure out why you're bad, and git gud. Hope that helps.

Sneakers

Generally speaking for solo PVP, my approach is use gear tanky enough so you can survive and play the build and experience it.
You will be able to kill 10-15% of people at the start cus your damage will be lacking for the other 90%. But you will survive and draw them/gain experience playing.

Now once you get better and get to a point were "damn id smash this guy if i had more burst/dps" - you tinker and tune your build. Weight it towards little more dps/burst. Little by little you will adapt to having slightly lower dmg mitigation and little more dmg.

After a while you will be very weighted towards massive damage but very little defence, but still surviving just as good as you did when you started off with your tankier version (of the same build).

All stam classes rely heavy on animation CC once opponents are at 70%ish HP. Then you drop burst and hope they die.

Magica classes often rely on having massive amounts of dps to keep the stam from preassuring them and gaining the iniative. If you loose initiative as mag you die. Thats why ppl think sorc is OP cus they can reset a fight were they lost iniative.

My mag sorc for example is capable of a 25500 burst (after mitigation) on 26000 (plus minor pro and potentates) resists. I am in the process of adding more damage and lowering mitigation to reach higher burst without actually being easier to kill.
I can do this by changing traits on jewelry/changing glyphs/food to alter my stats slightly in favor of DAMAGE by taking away sustain/mitigation. The monster set is a perfect slot to shift defence/offence with.

If you have higher resist and mitigation then 26000+5+8% mit you will survive my mag sorc burst.

Many people in cyro walk around with 37k resists and a 15k burst on 25k/5+8% which puts them in a position were they cannot kill anything who can self heal.

From my experience (which isnt extensive at all) stam need between 6500-7000 wep dmg and 30k stam to produce enough burst to kill most people in one go.

The way healing works at this patch level this is how you need to approach the "GAEJM".

With that said, you have certain classes like NB and Necro who got access to MAJOR DEFILE, they can play it a little bit diffrent.

fred4

Reverb wrote: »

Gear matters far less in PvP than it does for competitive pve. There is always a meta, and many players who hump that meta, but a high percentage of really effective pvp'ers in this game are wearing off-bis gear that works for them and their play style.

To borrow a line from someone else on the forums: success in eso pvp is 40% experience and situational awareness, 30% skill, and 30% gear.

This sounds about right to me. I particularly like that XP is ranked before skill and that gear is only 30%, with 70% being other factors.