Top players really run meta build?

GRXRG

This is something I've been thinking of.
We all know the current stamina pvp meta is new moon fury bloodspawn, new moon spriggan or similars still around new moon.

I copied exactly one or those builds from top players which seems to hold so easily 1vs2 or 1vs3 with those sets.
I am all golden out and the result is terrible.

I know maybe I am not a great player and might be a l2p issue, but I played a Nord stamden in heavy new moon fury Bloodspawn with over 5k weapon damage and 30k resistances and even if i keep all my buffs up and rotate my vigor and arctic blast i still receive 13k executioners, 8k frags, 10k assassin's scourge (which i don't see casted never btw) and in a 1vs2 even using los i get destroyed within seconds.

At the same time I encounter other stamden or stamcros which receive barely no damage from me and destroy me.

And when i gently ask them: wow you are so good do you mind sharing what you run?
This is their answer:
Pay me 300k or l2p.

So this made me think, maybe they run something like pariah new moon? Armor master new moon?

I don't know guys, tell me if i should still try fury new moon to learn to play better and it's just a l2p issue because I don't know anymore.

And btw i am talking of CP enabled using good CPs same in the youtube videos and so on, 81 points ironclad and master of arms etc, so the damage should be there.

Alienoutlaw

this right here is the problem with PvP, ppl going online for a build it not working so assume either other player is OP and needs nerfing or their sets/skills need a buff, not saying you do or would just in general.

these videos on builds are ruining the game.
what works for 1 player does not mean it will fit your play style or that you can use and the rotations they use. the players melting you defo are not running a meta build but something they spent time and effort working on and perfecting.

amir412

Never considered myself to be at the top,
But i never ever copied a build from someone and then expected it to work magically.
That's your first mistake.

2nd thing, when i make a build i do it around the class's passives,
and choose sets that syncs well with it.

Carespanker

First rule to eso pvp theory crafting, there is no gear meta or Bis. There will always be something that does more in certain fields but nothing that does everything on its own. (new moon is bad btw)

Second rule of eso pvp theory crafting, know the basics. If you cant animation cancel, weave, or roll around corners to avoid damage you will have the same underperformance issues as any1 in the game making any build useless.

Third rule of eso pvp theory crafting, make sure it kills. The goal is to kill (Preferably faster than your opponent). Find 3+ sets that fit together, ask yourself how its going to kill with whatever gimmick your class can do to support its killingness then test it. If you still can't make it kill with numbers that look like it should kill repeat step 2 or find a new set.

The fourth rule of eso pvp theory crafting, make sure it lives long enough to kill. If it doesn't try finding a workaround through skills, learn how to dodge around corners better, or simply stop trying to 1vX every chance you get.

And the fifth and final rule to eso pvp theory crafting, Do not copy builds. 99.9% of the time you will be getting guides from people catering to alcast sheep. Which means they are looking for the "WoW Refugee" to give them a quick view on an easy copypasta build that doesn't teach you how to use it whatsoever, and everything that is second nature that they claim "everyone should know(aka everything in rule 2)" is simply left out. You will never have the same experience as them no matter how long they describe their gameplay to you so its best to just use them as a reference if you need a place to start and forge your own path.

I hope this helps.

The Uninvited

@Alienoutlaw is right, PVP builds are very personal. Some players that post their builds even mention this specifically, by saying things like "This it what works for me, it might not work for you".

If there's any place in the game where build variety is the highest, it's PVP. I run a lot of non-meta builds and they do just fine.

Freakin_Hytte

If you want to become a good player in pvp, start creating your own builds, that way you can make a build you think is fun and works well for how you play the game.

It's completely a l2p issue your experiencing. But the best builds are usually tailored to that person's playstyle. That's why they do so good, because it fits them. Create your own build that fits you instead of copying other builds.

The Uninvited

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

GRXRG

The Uninvited wrote: »

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

But every single player i find tells me fury new moon because of healing power, and even having 42 points into blessed, it doesn't feel that all great. While my opponents get back to full with a vigor pop.

The Uninvited

GRXRG wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

But every single player i find tells me fury new moon because of healing power, and even having 42 points into blessed, it doesn't feel that all great. While my opponents get back to full with a vigor pop.

What food are you running and how high is your stamina pool? What is your tooltip on vigor? The last build I made has a 25K tooltip on vigor and zero points into blessed.

Carespanker

GRXRG wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

But every single player i find tells me fury new moon because of healing power, and even having 42 points into blessed, it doesn't feel that all great. While my opponents get back to full with a vigor pop.

That's because every time there's a new crafted build that does something so simply all the small-brained pvpers out there will tell you to get it as the easiest zergling build available to be at the very least a body on the field that doesn't get 1 shotted by siege. The same thing happened when fortified brass came out... Don't get me wrong crafted sets have their place in certain builds but if everyone is doing it, ill tell ya right now they are because its easy to obtain; which absolutely does not translate to it being the best! Like we said, do not copy builds, take what you find out that works as a reference and build from there.

Freakin_Hytte

GRXRG wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

But every single player i find tells me fury new moon because of healing power, and even having 42 points into blessed, it doesn't feel that all great. While my opponents get back to full with a vigor pop.

It's more than just NMA, it's about the entire build and how it works together and you have to stop with the meta thinking. Most top players don't use a meta build, those are more for the masses. Sure you can use NMA or fury but they are far from your only options and what do you combine with? What monster set would fit your playstyle best? Maybe troll king, bloodspawn or would thurvokun be best for you? What food should you use depending on your needs? Drink in combination with bonepirate? Or maybe hulking draugr with artaeum take away broth to get a big boost in Stam? What sets and skills fits well with my passives? What kind of enchantments do you need to cover up holes or boost something you want more of in the build? What kind of armour do you want to use? Heavy for a slower like a brawler or maybe you want to have more mobility and use medium? If you use medium, how can you max mitigation? If you use heavy what can you do to be more mobile so you can avoid damage by movement?

Do you see what I'm pointing towards here? It's more than an offensive set that defines a build or how strong my Vigor is.
These are just a few of the questions you could ask yourself when creating a build. Get meta out of your head if you want to be better than the masses.

OrderoftheDarkness

GRXRG wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

But every single player i find tells me fury new moon because of healing power, and even having 42 points into blessed, it doesn't feel that all great. While my opponents get back to full with a vigor pop.

You'd better study the system CP yourself and spend some time on it. Put + wherever possible, then reset and then raise again. See what % of the increase goes, how it is projected on your skills in real time. As for Blessed, it increases the healing applied. Incoming healing can safely increase through Quick Recovery. Therefore, as the person above said, he had a 25K Vigor tooltip without investing in blessed. For example, Necro's stam scythe can increase healing even through Precise Strikes.
Simply put, first figure out the difference between outgoing healing and incoming healing.

Vietfox

Skills > gear
You can't copy a build and expect to do fine. Like, no matter how many points you got on shadow ward, if you don't block they are useless.

OrderoftheDarkness

GRXRG wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

@Carespanker and @Freakin_Hytte Exactly!

Also, if you still want to copy someone's build, don't just copy the gear. See how they combine certain gear with certain skills, CP allocation, potions/poisons, etcetera. All parts come into play when creating a PVP build.

But every single player i find tells me fury new moon because of healing power, and even having 42 points into blessed, it doesn't feel that all great. While my opponents get back to full with a vigor pop.

To make it easier for you to understand about incoming and outgoing healing, consider the 2 morphs Resolving Vigor and Echoing Vigor. Resolving Vigor will only be increased by Quick Recovery as it is a selfish skill that is mostly used by all Stam and it is based only on incoming healing. Echoing Vigor can be upgraded by Quick Recovery and by Blessed. The selfish part of Quick Recovery is what you raise for yourself. Outgoing healing for others you can boost through Blessed.
Sorry for my English, I hope this helps you. Therefore, for Resolving Vigor, you don't need to touch Blessed, just use Quick Recovery CP, although you can increase it through Blessed.
P. S. oops I already got confused while writing, even Blessed will increase the healing for Resolving Vigor because It is also a healing applied. You need to look at the number of points invested in Quick Recovery and Blessed, because the more you invest the less return you have.
Here's an example of how to study the impact of CP on skills https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/resolving-vigor. Study the part where is written Champion Points buffing this skill:

Pauls

1vXing is overrated and too many people think that it works just because of superior build – get these top sets and you're going to kill crowds alone no matter how skilled enemies are. Thats not how it works at all.

OrderoftheDarkness

Pauls wrote: »

1vXing is overrated and too many people think that it works just because of superior build – get these top sets and you're going to kill crowds alone no matter how skilled enemies are. Thats not how it works at all.

Yes, I agree when people create a situation to blow themselves up when they run after one. Why play his game they can just move away.
Sometimes people themselves create the conditions for their explosion.

Alienoutlaw

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Pauls wrote: »

1vXing is overrated and too many people think that it works just because of superior build – get these top sets and you're going to kill crowds alone no matter how skilled enemies are. Thats not how it works at all.

Yes, I agree when people create a situation to blow themselves up when they run after one. Why play his game they can just move away.
Sometimes people themselves create the conditions for their explosion.

im convinced alot of these 1vX videos are set up with "friends" to make each other look good

OrderoftheDarkness

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Pauls wrote: »

1vXing is overrated and too many people think that it works just because of superior build – get these top sets and you're going to kill crowds alone no matter how skilled enemies are. Thats not how it works at all.

Yes, I agree when people create a situation to blow themselves up when they run after one. Why play his game they can just move away.
Sometimes people themselves create the conditions for their explosion.

im convinced alot of these 1vX videos are set up with "friends" to make each other look good

Then they are really masochists lol.

Iskiab

There are a lot of things people don’t tell you about builds, here are some of the big things:
- almost everyone’s a vampire for the undeath passive (less damage taken at low health)
- make sure you animation cancel and block big hits
- make sure you use vigor before clashing like a buff, using it on your front bar is a good idea
- speed > tooltips. Speed is one of the best defenses in the game

I’ve never seen these things mentioned in any build videos.

Alienoutlaw

one tin foil hat theory is that all these "build posts" and "Meta" builds are just there to ensure the good players have easy kills as 80% of PvP are wearing potato builds with predictable rotations and buffs

saying for a friend

Berenhir

Iskiab wrote: »

There are a lot of things people don’t tell you about builds, here are some of the big things:
- almost everyone’s a vampire for the undeath passive (less damage taken at low health)
- make sure you animation cancel and block big hits
- make sure you use vigor before clashing like a buff, using it on your front bar is a good idea
- speed > tooltips. Speed is one of the best defenses in the game

I’ve never seen these things mentioned in any build videos.

Almost nobody uses vamp ever since they nerfed the heck out of undeath and mist form

Syiccal

Berenhir wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

There are a lot of things people don’t tell you about builds, here are some of the big things:
- almost everyone’s a vampire for the undeath passive (less damage taken at low health)
- make sure you animation cancel and block big hits
- make sure you use vigor before clashing like a buff, using it on your front bar is a good idea
- speed > tooltips. Speed is one of the best defenses in the game

I’ve never seen these things mentioned in any build videos.

Almost nobody uses vamp ever since they nerfed the heck out of undeath and mist form

Lolz to this,, every mag class uses vamp for the reasons mentioned previously unless they trying to be different..I myself have tried to move away from it many times but the benifits far outweigh the negatives

Iskiab

Syiccal wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

There are a lot of things people don’t tell you about builds, here are some of the big things:
- almost everyone’s a vampire for the undeath passive (less damage taken at low health)
- make sure you animation cancel and block big hits
- make sure you use vigor before clashing like a buff, using it on your front bar is a good idea
- speed > tooltips. Speed is one of the best defenses in the game

I’ve never seen these things mentioned in any build videos.

Almost nobody uses vamp ever since they nerfed the heck out of undeath and mist form

Lolz to this,, every mag class uses vamp for the reasons mentioned previously unless they trying to be different..I myself have tried to move away from it many times but the benifits far outweigh the negatives

Stam and mag. Very easy to test, throw on a prismatic glyph (or whatever the damage to vampires one is) and watch the big damage.

I was stumped on how these stam seem to go to 20% health on my magplar and then it feels like my damage just does nothing: BRP DW plus vamp. I see it on stamwardens and stamdks all the time.

VaranisArano

Yeah, my experience with copying builds sounds exactly like yours.

Pre-Morrowind, Blazeplars were the overpowered build everyone was complaining about. So I thought "Hmm, I've got a Templar, the skills are easy to use, and the gear looks easy to get, so I'll make myself a Blazeplar and melt people in Cyrodiil. It'll be awesome!"

Predictably, I sucked.

The reason? I didn't actually know anything about how to play an effective Blazeplar. I'd put in zero practice and the result was about as good as you'd expect from someone who'd just read the chess rulebook and then sat down to play someone who'd actually practiced playing chess.

My takeaway from my debacle? Builds alone aren't going to carry me. Not even the most powerful, most complained about build on the forums at the time. Not even the OP build ZOS went out of their way to nerf six feet under in the Morrowind patch. Practice, practice, and learning to play your build is the real key that elevates your build out of being a paper tiger to something that makes you an effective player in Cyrodiil.

My advice: if you wanna copy a build, go for it. Then allot yourself however many hours of practice with that build its going to take for you to "get good" with it. Don't forget the other elements of PVP experience like LOS and learning to,read your opponent's moves, either. Remember that the players who make that build look OP also put hours into practicing their PVP skills. They didn't just wake up, throw on gear, and start wrecking. Neither will you.

oxygen_thief

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

im convinced alot of these 1vX videos are set up with "friends" to make each other look good

people dont upload videos with failures. yesterday i fought against a group of 4 or 5 players in nocp ic. i was killed 10-15 times before i finally managed to burst their healer and kill the rest one by one. i couldve record it like im a good soloer but in reality im not.

GRXRG

So for learning at stamden or stamplar what sets i should run?
A defensive set paired with a damage one and bloodspawn?

technohic

For 1 thing, if you are not great, no build will suddenly make you great. And even decent, I know 1 streamer the way he runs, I cannot match as he has the best animation cancels I have ever seen and minimal lag. When he complains about lag, it looks like my best experience.

Another is, the X players streamers killed are not usually the duo or solos you see running around. There is a huge gap in what you fight

Vietfox

GRXRG wrote: »

So for learning at stamden or stamplar what sets i should run?
A defensive set paired with a damage one and bloodspawn?

That's totally up to you and your playstyle. You need to find a build you feel comfortable with.
For instance, i block quite often so all my magicka characters have a decent stamina pool and recovery (17K to 20K and around 1K recovery). I also heavy attack often so i don't need a high main resource recovery and i put points on tenacity instead.
The more you pvp the more you'll realize about what you need and what you don't.

Btw, patches ago i managed to make noble duelist work quite well on my magblade xD

The Uninvited

technohic wrote: »

When he complains about lag, it looks like my best experience.

LOL, so true. I sometimes see streamers complain about lag and I go "What are you talking about?"

OrderoftheDarkness

Guys, the person asked a specific question.
Advise him to build for study. Why make a tragedy out of it. I don't play stamden or stamplar, so I can't advise it. Then you wonder why people watch videos. Because instead of answering on the forum, they get a lyrical digression, where many try to show their knowledge.

VaranisArano

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Guys, the person asked a specific question.
Advise him to build for study. Why make a tragedy out of it. I don't play stamden or stamplar, so I can't advise it. Then you wonder why people watch videos. Because instead of answering on the forum, they get a lyrical digression, where many try to show their knowledge.

The answer is that they probably run the meta or something close to it...but they've practiced with that build, their class, and PVP in general enough that they'd do well in pretty much any type of gear.

The answer for the OP is to pick a build - their golded meta build will work as well as any other - and then practice, practice, practice.