TITLE

SydneyGrey

I don't think damage dealers realize exactly how many buffs they get from healers, and how much healers can weaken bosses with debuffs.

peacenote

It has been said a few different ways in this thread already, but I will put my spin on it, too. I have always liked that if you want to try and tackle content with unique setups in ESO, you can.

So *need*? Need would be boring.

But if we get to the point where having a tank and healer is a huge detriment to the group, and not having those roles for at least the last few DLC releases is actively preferred, that's when I think there is a big issue.

Are we there yet? Honestly not sure. I have four healers, one of them my main, and two tanks, and I always seem to be welcome in groups. For now. Curious how many others still feel the same.

I do think what made healing fun initially in ESO is coming back to haunt us now. It was essentially a hybrid role where we could contribute a fair amount to DPS. As power creep occurred, what we could add in damage as a hybrid became less valuable, especially for newer players still learning. More and more expectations were put on healer/support roles as a result (ele drain, orbs/shards, etc.) so that we've come to where we are today, and what one "should" do in easier content is drastically different from trials.

Not sure how it can be fixed or if it needs to be but it sure has been an evolution from those early days...

Edziu

SydneyGrey wrote: »

I don't think damage dealers realize exactly how many buffs they get from healers, and how much healers can weaken bosses with debuffs.

probably most people who never got so great healer
I agree if healer is very good, skilled he will give for 2 dd's enough support to raise group dps to be like 3dd+ run depending also ona aaditional support from tank

but healer able to buff so great is very very small percentage so they even never go to group finder becasue they have enough mates they will find always someone wanting their support so much
I had friend being so great healer..she was better than 3rd dd instead of her on healer but after longer time she burned out and now mostly she prefer 3dd runs after all, to be this 3rd dd in decend group

and after all how player need to be skilled, exped to give so big support to increaso so much dps...as they are very miniority in healers community...withing randoms, pugs you will never thind them and so more efficient and more often is to get this 3rd dd isntead of healer

FrancisCrawford

Kahnak wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

And all three dds (and the tank) are operating at lower efficiency because they have to slot healing/buff skills instead of killing (or tanking) ones.

All those slots for Major Lifesteal, Major Magickasteal, Major and Minor Mending, Major and Minor Vulnerability etc etc plus the 30% damage buff you’re not getting are a waste of space unless you are collectively doing so much more damage as a 3 than you would as a more effectively built pair.

In most situations, with most players you’ll get better numbers and fewer deaths as a conventional 2 dd group with a competent, focused healer.

The real trade off you are making is you have 3 players who want to play dd and can’t be arsed to play a healer.

A competent, focused healer that is applying buffs and debuffs increases the DPS performance of a group almost as much as a 3rd DD. And this doesn't take into account the DPS that a healer provides just going through their rotation. I do 8k - 10k on a Templar just through the use of Shards, WoE and RoR. Not to mention that now your DPS has the ability to ignore additional mechanics simply because a healer can heal through them.

People don't understand the need for a Healer simply because they don't understand the role in this game in relation to other games. Healing is not even the main function of a healer - it's purely support. If you're just standing there occasionally throwing out BoL to your group, you're not doing it right.

Let's think about the numbers.

• Minor Berserk adds a nominal 8% to damage, really somewhat over 5%.
• Major Courage with 100% uptime adds 3-4% to DPS.
• Minor Magickasteal adds the equivalent of 600 regen AFTER CP and Sorcery buffs -- so maybe 400 before? Not having to provide that oneself creates room for about 400 more Spellpower, which might add 6% to DPS (magicka characters only), depending on their effective spellpower.
• Shards/Orbs might have an additional 2/3 of that benefit with perfect cycle time, realistically less.

So a healer could easily boost magicka DDs' DPS by 15% each or more directly through buffs & debuffs, in addition to freeing them to do more damage by saving them the trouble of healing themselves. If you can do all that and also do close to half the damage a DD does, you're probably not holding back group DPS.

thadjarvis

Edziu wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

almost, on every dlc dung tank is needed for sure, but healer..no...with decent dps and knowing mechanics there is still no need healer for any dlc dung

MF HM?! Maybe there's a clear out there, but even the ND,SR,HM (in one run) I've heard of used a healer. Please do share one without a healer as I'd be interested to see it.

I didnt know ND, SR and HM in single rund dungs are average runs for what everyone around target to do it every time they enter to any dung

seems Im still to noob for endgame when I go with people for just vet clear, maybe HM instead always HM with ND and SR
I see it...and so I dont even know noone then who is on such endgame to do this on every enter to dung fml

I was noting specifically the claim that "no need healer for any dlc dung" as many negate healers' value on the forums, which discourages new players that want to heal from pursuing it. I sited that high level run to illustrate an example all the way at the highest level.

For randoms, the content level doesn't matter really. If a player does the same dungeons at the same difficulty many times eventually she wouldn't need a healer as she would know how to avoid most of the damage and when to self heal/shield unavoidable damage. If a player is not dying in a group without a healer, then it's likely easy content for that player. However, most players at all levels that are new to subjectively difficult content appreciate healers, which starts before nFG1 all the way up. One could build defensively, but 2 offensively built DDs + 1 versitile healer likely would do more damage than 3 defensively built DDs.

I hear you that some of the time healers are probably not desired. However, that is because we often choose to avoid putting ourselves into situations in which we would have to rely on one.

BackStabeth

If you do not have a tank and/or healer that means those doing the DPS need to have the ability to absorb damage and heal themselves.

If you are playing mostly solo, that's great. But if you are playing in a group you are really limiting yourself. Sure, you can play all three roles with one character, and not have a need to rely on a tank and healer, but you will always without exception do far better if those in a group are playing specific roles. If DPS doesn't need to heal or tank because they are playing with a good tank and healer, they can focus totally on applying DPS without concern.

Just because you can complete a dungeon without the need of a healer or tank, doesn't mean it's optimum nor the best choice. If you click really well with the people whom you are in any group with, and you have a dedicated tank, and healer or even a dedicated tank/healer and healer imagine being able to apply DPS far more effectively.

Tanks nor healers need DPS either, you could have a group made up of all tanks, or all healers, or half and half and still complete dungeons. It's not a matter of being needed, it's a matter of being better. You are better when you have players filling each position so each can focus on their job rather than one person playing many different parts. DPS will always perform better when they are solely focused on DPS.

Hexvaldr

I've tried a lot of variations of group composition for non-dlc vet hm dungeons, and the group performance as well as dps numbers have led me to conclude that ideal composition (assuming four skilled and competent players) is 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 damage dealers. It can be fun to run other ways or to try different things, but when people start saying it's more effective... I become highly skeptical of the broad application of that opinion.