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gatekeeper13

FierceSam wrote: »

Sad but true. However, ZOS have noticed this and some of the new DLC dungeons benefit enormously from having a tank. Try doing vDoM, vMHK, or vLoM without a tank and a good tank at that... Good luck and I won’t be joining you.

When I completed vet DoM as a tank, it was a real pain and its certainly a dungeon that you cant do without a tank. There are many adds that 1-shot and not controlling Symphony or the Auroras at the orb is certain group wipe. But still, the healer was mainly needed at the Maw, who does insane damage and even there only to heal the tank. Dungeons look like they ignore the healer role completely, even the hard ones. Dont know whats happening in MHK or LoM, never done them in vet.

Joxer61

5 man dungeons would solve a lot and give more people chances to run them and play roles they like and are good at!

Nurable

Wing wrote: »

tanking is boring because the remaining 95% of the game is an absolute slog

ever wonder why you don't see 50k health, mitigation cap, sword and board just wandering around the overworld?

because it takes you 10 minutes to do what takes any normal person 10 seconds, its slow, boring and in no way shape or form rewarded.

the only content in the game you NEED a tank for is widely regarded to be the WORST content in the game, and so the only people that need / have tanks are vet DLC dungeon / trial groups.

that's a niche role in a niche group.

This is spot on. ZOS have made the pure tanking role completely boring. What's the issue with letting tanks do 75% damage of a dps? It's diminished damage but makes life more interesting. And think of the creatvie builds that we'd see!

I created a fun NecroMage tank for normal dungeons and easy vet dungeons. He has hight resistances and health but pumps about 20% of the group damage while CC-ing and debuffing adds all of the time. It's a lot of fun to play. I've had a lot of comments on how good it is. I took him into nCR and it was a wee bit ropey at times, but fine for the most part. That's what tanking should be like. I control the battlefield, keep the bosses taunted and pump out decent damage too. Overland, no issues. I can tank the dragons in Elswyr and do my dailies without problems.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

oddbasket wrote: »

The real unsung heroes are the ones who do the thankless jobs.

cant wait to see you doing moongrave fane triple achievement without tank

VaranisArano

I don't know about other players, but I always want a tank who holds boss aggro when I play my healer or DDs instead of my main tanks.

It just makes the run so much smoother on a normal dungeon. The boss stays more or less in one place instead of running out of the AOEs so the group has higher DPS. My healer doesn't have to facetank the boss on top of healing, buffing, and DPS or my DD doesn't have to stop dealing damage to block, bash, and interrupt the boss I'm facetanking. I don't have to deal with the newbie DD who understandably panics when they get boss aggro. Oh, and the boss never resets because someone pulled them out of the fight area by accident.

It all just goes smoother with a tank who can hold aggro, okay?

krachall

For daily undaunted quests, I typically run with the same group of friends and we typically do the non-DLCs on vet HM and the DLC on normal. Unless someone needs undaunted points or skills leveled, we typically run 4xDPS or 1 tank 3xDPS.

Everyone has their own means of enjoying the game. We like going fast.

MEBengalsFan2001

Here is a way to resolve the issue.

Decrease physical/magika resistance and reduce health bonus for food and passive for non-tank roles by by 25-50% when in any dungeons. This would increase the need for a healer and a tank in dungeons. Problem solved.

Ramber

thalosdaedra wrote: »

about RND
Only in DLC random normal dungeon - it is impossible to pass without a tank and a heal.

In the standard random dungeon (vet or norms), the roles have depreciated,
But its good when beginners start learn how to heal/tank from 10 lvl

There is no pride in the fact that you are a good tank or a doctor.
Roles depreciated all DPS class go to dungeon as tank/heal to kill everything and it's all boring

I'm thinking that the first sentence of the OP may be a mistake, because everything he's saying after is different from what he says first.

These days you don't need a tank or a healer to succeed at dungeons and that this is a pity. It would be a good thing for lower level players to learn how to be one of those things.
You used to be able to take pride in being a good healer or tank but now the roles are diminished and you don't need them which makes the game more boring.


We want to be heavy tank with shield and healthy who is always communicate-friendly protecting allies and have respect leader tank, who pull carefull with bow and aggro with shield, who go in battlefield first and carry all damage, who know dungeon route and explain plans not to die, and ask for 3sec to aggro mobs, but nothing, som Khajit-thief with low hp rushing forward and overhuge boss+mobpacks cant kill this thin cat..

ESO is MMORpg? or MOMoPay2Grind4Grind?

Dungeons feels like its delve for FusRoDah grinders

We so confused my friend created Tank DK and me created a 100% heal argonian lvl 22 but we just suspect heal+tank is useless in all form of pve-dungeon where is have option role "Dmg/Tank/Heal" but all go dps, mobs cant kill you, impossible to die ever if u dont eat food

solo quest/grind for heal-tank have low dmg, just mobs cant kill you, you cant kill fast, its all boring and less rewarding for this "importants" group-role in MmoRpg

i think this person is only talking about those that got god and have been around a while! There are plenty of low level players that cannot complete a normal or vet dungeon without a tank or healer while they learn the mechanics and how to stay alive. Dont assume because you can do something that everyone can do it. Tanks and healer are VERY much needed at all levels.

CoronHR

you can solo dps some dungeons. but tanks and healers are good for vet, and also for trials. tanks and healers can start trials and get them going easier than dps (like get a group together is what i mean, as tanks and healers can be hard to find, but if you're a tank or healer then some of the work in putting them together is done)

r3turn2s3nd3r

The issue as always comes down to the gap between the ceiling and floor in player skill set and the jump in difficulty from normal to vet (most notable in dlc dungeons)

My partner and I have duo'd all DLC normal dungeons as magsorc and magblade. 19K health tops. We are both cp810+, know all the dungeons inside and out and do not need heals or a tank. Yet, just yesterday a guildie was in a normal Lair of Maarselok pug as tank and the group could not pass the tree boss with a full group of four.

Veteran base game dungeons, again, I have grabbed 3 friends from guild to do some undaunted skill line farming. We're all CP810+, prog trials together and know the content very well after 4 years, so we just go 4 dps. City of Ash II, Arx Corinium, Tempest Island, doesn't matter, we get speed, no death and hard modes in one shot.

Vet DLC dungeons, with few exceptions we run 1 tank / 3 dds.

At the end of the day, there's much more to it than simply saying "These days you don't need a tank or a healer"

It's probably more appropriate to say "With an experienced group of 4 people that KNOW their characters, you don't necessarily need a tank or healer these days"

ghastley

You ALWAYS need a tank and healer, because you need to train those guys for the dungeons and trials that need them.

You may be able to level up their skills in other roles, but the tank and healer situational awareness needs work as well.

MEBengalsFan2001

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

The issue as always comes down to the gap between the ceiling and floor in player skill set and the jump in difficulty from normal to vet (most notable in dlc dungeons)

My partner and I have duo'd all DLC normal dungeons as magsorc and magblade. 19K health tops. We are both cp810+, know all the dungeons inside and out and do not need heals or a tank. Yet, just yesterday a guildie was in a normal Lair of Maarselok pug as tank and the group could not pass the tree boss with a full group of four.

Veteran base game dungeons, again, I have grabbed 3 friends from guild to do some undaunted skill line farming. We're all CP810+, prog trials together and know the content very well after 4 years, so we just go 4 dps. City of Ash II, Arx Corinium, Tempest Island, doesn't matter, we get speed, no death and hard modes in one shot.

Vet DLC dungeons, with few exceptions we run 1 tank / 3 dds.

At the end of the day, there's much more to it than simply saying "These days you don't need a tank or a healer"

It's probably more appropriate to say "With an experienced group of 4 people that KNOW their characters, you don't necessarily need a tank or healer these days"

Could you group handle those same Vet dungeons if the game reduced your health and physical/magika resistance by 50% since you are not playing as tank.

Other games I have played put penalty to various roles to ensure that all roles were used. For instance damage dealer that used shields, healing or other non damage ability had those ability adjusted so that they were only 50% effective when in the dungeon. Other games also made it so that if you ran without a healer you would have reduced healing in. If you ran without a tank, bosses damage increased by 50%, etc...

There are ways to enforce the trinity in any MMO. I like it when the devs design the game around the trinity or an additional support role to ensure support roles are not forgotten. Over time most MMOs see power creep where damage dealers are preferred over the support roles in smaller group content (dungeons in ESO). As this happens the devs adjust the game completely and eventually you need the healer and tank and damage dealers become less of a need as content is adjusted to ensure the trinity is used. When this happens the DD cry about not being invited into groups, etc.. or they adjust their character to play a support role but do so horribly because they never spent time to learn the role.

I rather see developer adjust it so that when in dungeons dd get reduction in stats to ensure the usage of tanks and healers.

Fur_like_snow

Who needs a healer when the thing that kills you is a one shot mechanic? All the vet four man content can be done with a tank and three DDs. Sometimes just four DDs. Personally I like how this is structured but I could see why a player who wants to fit into the traditional healer role would feel left out.

Kahnak

Wing wrote: »

tanking is boring because the remaining 95% of the game is an absolute slog

ever wonder why you don't see 50k health, mitigation cap, sword and board just wandering around the overworld?

because it takes you 10 minutes to do what takes any normal person 10 seconds, its slow, boring and in no way shape or form rewarded.

the only content in the game you NEED a tank for is widely regarded to be the WORST content in the game, and so the only people that need / have tanks are vet DLC dungeon / trial groups.

that's a niche role in a niche group.

"the only content in the game you NEED a tank for is widely regarded to be the WORST content in the game, and so the only people that need / have tanks are vet DLC dungeon / trial groups.

that's a niche role in a niche group."

Vet DLC dungeons, Vet Arenas and Vet trials are widely regarded as the WORST content in the game? Where is your evidence for that? Endgame PVE is not niche, dude. You're obviously speaking purely from the perspective of someone who does not engage in any organized PVE.

Kahnak

FierceSam wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

And all three dds (and the tank) are operating at lower efficiency because they have to slot healing/buff skills instead of killing (or tanking) ones.

All those slots for Major Lifesteal, Major Magickasteal, Major and Minor Mending, Major and Minor Vulnerability etc etc plus the 30% damage buff you’re not getting are a waste of space unless you are collectively doing so much more damage as a 3 than you would as a more effectively built pair.

In most situations, with most players you’ll get better numbers and fewer deaths as a conventional 2 dd group with a competent, focused healer.

The real trade off you are making is you have 3 players who want to play dd and can’t be arsed to play a healer.

A competent, focused healer that is applying buffs and debuffs increases the DPS performance of a group almost as much as a 3rd DD. And this doesn't take into account the DPS that a healer provides just going through their rotation. I do 8k - 10k on a Templar just through the use of Shards, WoE and RoR. Not to mention that now your DPS has the ability to ignore additional mechanics simply because a healer can heal through them.

People don't understand the need for a Healer simply because they don't understand the role in this game in relation to other games. Healing is not even the main function of a healer - it's purely support. If you're just standing there occasionally throwing out BoL to your group, you're not doing it right.

CASP3R421

imagine playing normal dungeons

BejaProphet

Kahnak wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

And all three dds (and the tank) are operating at lower efficiency because they have to slot healing/buff skills instead of killing (or tanking) ones.

All those slots for Major Lifesteal, Major Magickasteal, Major and Minor Mending, Major and Minor Vulnerability etc etc plus the 30% damage buff you’re not getting are a waste of space unless you are collectively doing so much more damage as a 3 than you would as a more effectively built pair.

In most situations, with most players you’ll get better numbers and fewer deaths as a conventional 2 dd group with a competent, focused healer.

The real trade off you are making is you have 3 players who want to play dd and can’t be arsed to play a healer.

A competent, focused healer that is applying buffs and debuffs increases the DPS performance of a group almost as much as a 3rd DD. And this doesn't take into account the DPS that a healer provides just going through their rotation. I do 8k - 10k on a Templar just through the use of Shards, WoE and RoR. Not to mention that now your DPS has the ability to ignore additional mechanics simply because a healer can heal through them.

People don't understand the need for a Healer simply because they don't understand the role in this game in relation to other games. Healing is not even the main function of a healer - it's purely support. If you're just standing there occasionally throwing out BoL to your group, you're not doing it right.

Truth.

Grandesdar

Kahnak wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

And all three dds (and the tank) are operating at lower efficiency because they have to slot healing/buff skills instead of killing (or tanking) ones.

All those slots for Major Lifesteal, Major Magickasteal, Major and Minor Mending, Major and Minor Vulnerability etc etc plus the 30% damage buff you’re not getting are a waste of space unless you are collectively doing so much more damage as a 3 than you would as a more effectively built pair.

In most situations, with most players you’ll get better numbers and fewer deaths as a conventional 2 dd group with a competent, focused healer.

The real trade off you are making is you have 3 players who want to play dd and can’t be arsed to play a healer.

A competent, focused healer that is applying buffs and debuffs increases the DPS performance of a group almost as much as a 3rd DD. And this doesn't take into account the DPS that a healer provides just going through their rotation. I do 8k - 10k on a Templar just through the use of Shards, WoE and RoR. Not to mention that now your DPS has the ability to ignore additional mechanics simply because a healer can heal through them.

People don't understand the need for a Healer simply because they don't understand the role in this game in relation to other games. Healing is not even the main function of a healer - it's purely support. If you're just standing there occasionally throwing out BoL to your group, you're not doing it right.

Well, I see many healer builds that are just magplars with a restro staff equipped and that's all. If they were dedicated like you said things would be better, but again, they might be embracing themselves for the 5k dps at 600 CP players, I can' t blame them. I usually slot at least a couple AOE skills in my tanks before I pug.

zvavi

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Could you group handle those same Vet dungeons if the game reduced your health and physical/magika resistance by 50% since you are not playing as tank.

Do that and some mechanics one shot through block. No amount of healing/tanking will help.

Austacker

My main is heals. I did it coming from WoW where a healer was both necessary - and appreciated.

In ESO it feels like a complete waste of time.

ZOS wanted to 'sorta' adopt the holy trinity to clear content, but ever since launch they've never gotten the balance right.


Whenever the general consensus of your playing group is 'support roles are not needed for the vast majority of content' you have to KNOW you've screwed up completely.

But the design of the game experience is so skewed towards this structure over (literally) years of content delivery, I'm not actually sure it CAN be fixed at this point.

So I'll just stay heals and zzzzzzz through my dailies. It's not much, but it's honest work.

Malprave

People have complained for years that tanks and healers aren't needed so ZOS makes the DLC dungeons harder. All the newer vet DLC need a tank and healer. Problem now is everybody complains that they're too hard and demands that they be taken out of the random daily because they're used to not needing a tank and healer.

ZOS can't win.

The Uninvited

Ah, so that's why they all moved to Cyrodiil?

Lisutaris

Play to cp 160 and do vet content. Trust me you will have your tank and heal roles.
btw, you dont pull with a bow. You just do not. Dual snb if easymode or lightning staff backbar as tank (real tank hero) .

thadjarvis

They could make healers absolutely necessary for normal dungeons, but in order to do that the incoming damage would have to be many multiples higher. That is likely beyond the playerbase's expectation of normal difficulty. Additionally, many groups benefit from healers in the current difficulty of normals.

Vet is another discussion as it's content, group composition, and group goal dependent. Support(s) and DD's will sometimes blur role lines.

Can't agree at all on tanking though. Grouping enemies and holding them in AOE's increases damage more than an additional damage dealer, and it's safer.

Edziu

Malprave wrote: »

People have complained for years that tanks and healers aren't needed so ZOS makes the DLC dungeons harder. All the newer vet DLC need a tank and healer. Problem now is everybody complains that they're too hard and demands that they be taken out of the random daily because they're used to not needing a tank and healer.

ZOS can't win.

almost, on every dlc dung tank is needed for sure, but healer..no...with decent dps and knowing mechanics there is still no need healer for any dlc dung

thadjarvis

Edziu wrote: »

almost, on every dlc dung tank is needed for sure, but healer..no...with decent dps and knowing mechanics there is still no need healer for any dlc dung

MF HM?! Maybe there's a clear out there, but even the ND,SR,HM (in one run) I've heard of used a healer. Please do share one without a healer as I'd be interested to see it.

Edziu

thadjarvis wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

almost, on every dlc dung tank is needed for sure, but healer..no...with decent dps and knowing mechanics there is still no need healer for any dlc dung

MF HM?! Maybe there's a clear out there, but even the ND,SR,HM (in one run) I've heard of used a healer. Please do share one without a healer as I'd be interested to see it.

I didnt know ND, SR and HM in single rund dungs are average runs for what everyone around target to do it every time they enter to any dung

seems Im still to noob for endgame when I go with people for just vet clear, maybe HM instead always HM with ND and SR
I see it...and so I dont even know noone then who is on such endgame to do this on every enter to dung fml

stevenyaub16_ESO

The great thing about this game you get alot of skill points so you can have switch between multiple skills and gear.

My main is a tank but can also DD whenever I need to using 64 stamina with 34k hp (with lord mundus). I've completed every difficult dungeon/trial HM in the game with this character both tanking and DDing. This game lets you be so flexible, I even have a specific build for normal dungeons where I can tank but also put out a good amount of damage.

There are add-ons that let you switch between CP loadouts as well as gear + skill loadouts too.

A Magicka DD can also switch into a competent healer with a switch of a button.

BejaProphet

Whether a healer (or tank) is needed is the wrong question. It only matters if they are desirable for a group to have one.

And I think a good and versatile healer is always a benefit in vet content.

NoSoup

Non-DLC dungeons are easier for a reason, they're the dungeons that sub 160 players are introduced to. There is plenty of content where both tanks and healers are absolutely necessary. My advice would be to get out of your comfort zone of doing only the same boring dungeons over and over and start doing real end game content and leave some group content availabe for newer players. If you are not yet good enough to tank or heal vet trials or HM DLC dungeons then I highly doubt you are going to get good enough by only doing the random dailies....

Not everything in the game should be balanced towards the 1000+ cp players.