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thalosdaedra

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oddbasket

The real unsung heroes are the ones who do the thankless jobs.

Freakin_Hytte

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

thalosdaedra

Should ZOS read this feedback and release new Patch that increased price role? its unfair me leveled healer and we love our class and role

Nanfoodle

If this is true the game needs to be rebalanced. Not needing a role at end game is a sad state. Not needing 2 roles is a broken game.

Iskiab

Nanfoodle wrote: »

If this is true the game needs to be rebalanced. Not needing a role at end game is a sad state. Not needing 2 roles is a broken game.

We’re talking about a normal dungeon. You don’t even need a group, you can solo them.

bmnoble

That is all well and good in a pre made group, PUG's however, sometimes you get a good group that can run over everything other times you get a group that will struggle a lot that really need a good tank or healer but quite often end up with a fake healer and tank.

My tank usually back bars a resto staff and fills both support roles in most dungeons, can't do much damage but that is not the role I queue for.

thalosdaedra

Iskiab wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

If this is true the game needs to be rebalanced. Not needing a role at end game is a sad state. Not needing 2 roles is a broken game.

We’re talking about a normal dungeon. You don’t even need a group, you can solo them.

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

DLM

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

Kudos to you and your team but the truth is that the majority of groups -and not only PUGS- do need heals for vet DLC.

Non DLC, that's another story. Pretty sure that 4 DPS would have no issue. I am not sure what happened but last week I had tanks dropping the group on several occasions and it caused no trouble to finish the dungeon before getting a replacement. As long as people know the fights and the boss behaviour, when to block/dodge...

Wing

tanking is boring because the remaining 95% of the game is an absolute slog

ever wonder why you don't see 50k health, mitigation cap, sword and board just wandering around the overworld?

because it takes you 10 minutes to do what takes any normal person 10 seconds, its slow, boring and in no way shape or form rewarded.

the only content in the game you NEED a tank for is widely regarded to be the WORST content in the game, and so the only people that need / have tanks are vet DLC dungeon / trial groups.

that's a niche role in a niche group.

Aznarb

Nothing new.
It sad but true, healer are not needed almost everywhere.
Even thing that supposed to be hard like VBRP can't be do faster and easier with 3 DD.

Yeah that a pity.
But that also a huge game design mistake by linking the healing stat to the Dps stats.

DPS should depend from crit and spell power.
Heal should depend from max Mag and Mag regen.

Until this is fixed, Heal would be only in group progression or Trial.
Any good DDs player don't need healer in 4man content.

Tank however still needed except obviously on easy content like normal or some vet non-dlc content.

Kurat

To OP, u ok mate?

xXMeowMeowXx

Iskiab wrote: »

Nanfoodle wrote: »

If this is true the game needs to be rebalanced. Not needing a role at end game is a sad state. Not needing 2 roles is a broken game.

We’re talking about a normal dungeon. You don’t even need a group, you can solo them.

Don’t worry Iskiab, apparently they’re members of Hodor....Oh, wait I forgot it was time for one of these threads again.

Just ignore and move on because they’re not members of Hodor. Good luck getting those badassed achievements without a tank or a healer

Chicharron

thalosdaedra wrote: »

These days you don't need a tank or a healer to succeed at dungeons and that this is a pity.

Really? In my guild I see LF healer for vPledges all the time.

Thanks for the information, I will make sure that everyone in the guild reads your thread and then we can proceed to delete our healeres.

Darkstorne

As a healer who actually heals (mostly buffs and debuffs to be fair) I make a point of kicking fake tanks from my groups towards the end of dungeons. No completion reward for you. No last boss loot. It's not fair that my other two group members queued patiently for their actual DPS role, and this other fool thinks he's important enough to skip the queue.

Tanks can build for DPS in normal dungeons while still having some crowd control skills. Same way a good healer can build for buffing and debuffing and throw in a bunch of AOE to speed up the damage. Fake tanks and fake healers are just rude, pretending it's okay because they think they speed up the group, but I always prefer a DPS spec'd tank that still crowd controls over a third DPS. Genuinely faster because grouping mobs to AOE down is easier with tank skills. Fake tanks/healers help no-one but themselves.

Legate_Lanius

Sounds like a GW2 syndrome and that’s not good

mikikatze

It all depends what your goal is, I think. Sure, you often don't need a healer... but you CAN bring one nonetheless and maybe the boss fight takes 20 seconds LONGER, but so what?

I myself enjoy supporting new guild members (there's new players every day!) and showing them that dungeons are manageable and fun on top of it (I was freaked out by "forced group play" in the beginning). So I usually take my main, who is not a "real" build but a tanky heal/DD hybrid I use for questing, overland fights, MSA and soloing low level dungeons. He has several armor and skill setup that I can change quickly.

More often than I would have expected I had to switch from doing damage to full healing/supporting in the middle of those dungeons, because it IS needed if you're not an experienced player with the right set up, self heal, experience about blocking/dodging in the right moments etc. Especially when you hit the first DLC dungeons (normal, not vet, because for that I rarely take my main) it can get quite frustrating.

zaria

Wing wrote: »

tanking is boring because the remaining 95% of the game is an absolute slog

ever wonder why you don't see 50k health, mitigation cap, sword and board just wandering around the overworld?

because it takes you 10 minutes to do what takes any normal person 10 seconds, its slow, boring and in no way shape or form rewarded.

the only content in the game you NEED a tank for is widely regarded to be the WORST content in the game, and so the only people that need / have tanks are vet DLC dungeon / trial groups.

that's a niche role in a niche group.

If you make extra gear for overland its no issue to quest or farm skyshards on an tank, no your cp will not be optimal and you have more health than you need but its not like you need 30K dps overland.
The reason its few tanks in the queue is that most simply ask in guild chat.

The reason you don't need healers or tanks in normal dungeons is that they are mostly run with players above cp160 with decent gear an a rotation. They are designed for below level 50 with bad gear and not many skills.

Now if you get into an group with 3 players like that as an tank its bad. Did that on my first tank who I leveled using random dungeons, downside was I focused too much on tanking and had no overland set so it was slow going.
Its two dps checks in banished cell 2

Jem_Kindheart

I partially disagree with OP and partially agree, here's why. With guildies or a good premade groups, you probably have been playing awhile, have good gear, decent leveled skills, and KNOW the mechanics most importantly. That's purely a function of time + experience.

I PUG a lot just because the queue even if slow is usually faster than even trying to wrangle up guildies lol. The honest truth is there's lots of new players, players returning from years off, and players that just don't possess the gear, skills, or experience, (or personal gaming skill in some cases haha). That's of course fine and welcome, no biggie. But they struggle and have a very hard time without a real tank and/or healer on board, even if those also are newbies.

So yeah, I agree, for 810+ players with bis gear and experience, no, normal dungos don't necessarily require those two roles. But if you're pugging it, it's the right thing to do to be your correct role and fulfill that role as needed. I main healers but dps'ed for years too and trying out some norm tanking finally. I queue pugs in the correct role and perform that role. It wouldn't be right or fair to some newbie lvl 15 player on their first dungeon ever to die every 30 seconds just because I am 810+ with all end gear and queued for a wrong role.

That said, on healer, I'll know right away if the group won't need much healing and I'll stay on lightning and dps, just throwing heals as needed. On tank of course in between bosses I'm debuffing and dpsing the trash full time.

So yes and no, it's situational.

marten_philip

I have died several times on my new Nightblade during LFG dungeon groups, due to either a lack of a healer or tank.

I imagine you won't need either one when you're playing on a high CP + BiS + secondary weapon = restoration staf and normal dungeons.
But that's just my guess.

Edziu

funny even on vet dungs if you are exp....for basic dungs on some oyu really dont need even tank, surely you dont need a healer for single basic game dung
and now vet dlc's...here for sure for every tank is needed xD but on most of them still healer is no-needed or even useless with decent dps

why about healer? because things in dung dont hit that hard if even if you know where to not stand or if something s harder....then it is always 1shot on dlc dung....so for what bring healer here if he cant help after all by game design of this content? better to take additional decent dps to group so bosses, trash would be burned faster and so if fights will be faster, shorter then we have lesser chance to get these 1shots

just ZOS design of group content

Kombinator

I don't really give a damn about normal, because it's normal, that low level is easy for high level. Low level stuff is easy in high level gear.

In vet. you either need a tank, or a healer for most case, but DLC dungeons often need both on bosses.

Healer doing damage is kinda obvious thing in this game. Unlike many other MMO you can regenerate mana quite rapidly even in combat, and infinite times. And turning a full time healer into DPS is just switching some skills. So all healer should have a 2. staff, and damage skills equipped so when no heal is required, because stuff is that easy, then it can start dealing damage. In my experience you can never have enough dps.

Joxer61

Legate_Lanius wrote: »

Sounds like a GW2 syndrome and that’s not good

god please no....

Joxer61

Kombinator wrote: »

I don't really give a damn about normal, because it's normal, that low level is easy for high level. Low level stuff is easy in high level gear.

And that's the problem.....what happens to new players that actually like to tank, and need to learn, yet the go into FG1 and the dps takes off and pulls everything giving the learning tank no chance to hone their craft. And then they skip parts...ffs, you have max Cps and you need to skip where it would take maybe an extra 2 mins to do it all?
Sadly the tank role has become a bit of a meme and it shouldn't matter the level of the players...you queued for a random you got one of the easy ones just do it and hopefully that new tank, or healer, learns and gets to have fun as well.

martinhpb16_ESO

Yup vanilla facepalm difficulty levels made ESO pve overland and normals plain boring.

martinhpb16_ESO

marten_philip wrote: »

I have died several times on my new Nightblade during LFG dungeon groups, due to either a lack of a healer or tank.

I imagine you won't need either one when you're playing on a high CP + BiS + secondary weapon = restoration staf and normal dungeons.
But that's just my guess.

Dying a few times is a good thing imho. The problem is actually never dying and that the traditional tank-spank-heal setup is now meaningless for swathes of content

FierceSam

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

And all three dds (and the tank) are operating at lower efficiency because they have to slot healing/buff skills instead of killing (or tanking) ones.

All those slots for Major Lifesteal, Major Magickasteal, Major and Minor Mending, Major and Minor Vulnerability etc etc plus the 30% damage buff you’re not getting are a waste of space unless you are collectively doing so much more damage as a 3 than you would as a more effectively built pair.

In most situations, with most players you’ll get better numbers and fewer deaths as a conventional 2 dd group with a competent, focused healer.

The real trade off you are making is you have 3 players who want to play dd and can’t be arsed to play a healer.

gatekeeper13

The reason behind this is because the way dungeons are structured, you are more likely to die from 1-shot mechanics than damage, making some roles almost useless.

Did vet SCP yesterday with my sorcerer DD... With matriarch slotted, the role of the healer was almost useless. He was only there to rez dead members that didnt step out of statues aoe fast enough. All bosses and adds did like zero damage to me and threats came only from mechanics. That makes no sense in my opinion. If group wipes come only from mechanics and Vigor outheals everything, its common sense that the healer will be of no use. Thats why we see so many 1T 3DD groups.

I dont think ZOS could re-design the dungeons in the future. Its bad design from the start and I think it will stay like that.

svendf

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Honestly I never play with a healer anymore, even on vet dlc me and my guild only uses 1 tank and then 3 dds with a bit of extra healing power and that's it.

If my main had been a healer I would have made a new char and that's a shame.

That`s why an high level player like me would like to see some more dps nerf ahead. You need all roles in any dungeon so player´s can learn.

I get into dungeon´s everyday with people, who are hoples even in easy dungeon´s. Not because they dont wanna learn - because they dont have a chance to do so. There are fakes everywhere (mostly tanks) and dont eveen have alot of dps to bring to make it all perfect.

Really ? Yes I want dps nerf so hard that you will start to learn the game or leave

So if healers and tanks should have a chance in this game and learn, then there is only one thing to say and that is - your kind of player´s who make town rouls are not needed in ESO because we need good tanks and healers.

We need to support those, who do tanking or healing all the way.

svendf

Nanfoodle wrote: »

If this is true the game needs to be rebalanced. Not needing a role at end game is a sad state. Not needing 2 roles is a broken game.

Agreed

FierceSam

Nanfoodle wrote: »

If this is true the game needs to be rebalanced. Not needing a role at end game is a sad state. Not needing 2 roles is a broken game.

Sad but true. However, ZOS have noticed this and some of the new DLC dungeons benefit enormously from having a tank. Try doing vDoM, vMHK, or vLoM without a tank and a good tank at that... Good luck and I won’t be joining you.

It’s harder to plan to ensure that you need a healer, although most groups will benefit from a good one. I can’t think of many specific heal tests in dungeons and if your healer is doing a good job you’ll never notice all the heals and buffs they’re giving because your dps will be suddenly fantastic and bosses will melt thanks to your awesome killing prowess.