Disparity of Base and DLC in Dungeon Finder

FierceSam

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

Raisin

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

People ARE making a choice when they choose random though. Please don't make it out to be anyone 'forcing' people into content. If they're capable of determining what they're ready for, then they should be capable of determining that random isn't suited for them because they have no idea what they're coming into. It is absolutely people's choice to hit random, and at that point they don't get to say that the game forced them into something they weren't ready for. They signed up for that possibility. If you don't want to end up there, don't actively make a decision that risks that factor. Now part of this flaw may be how in-your-face the random dungeon choice is, as opposed to the list -- this makes it seem like the standard option. Really it should be pointed out by the game a little that a random dungeon may not be a good choice for you as a newcomer.
There's also an issue with the fact that the list of specific dungeons doesn't tell you where to best start. If you're like me and many others (never went into a dungeon until 400CP+) and you have no idea that these dungeons even unlocked over time, you don't know what order they unlocked in and where a dungeon newbie should start. The game needs to do a better introduction to dungeon-ing. Just this weekend I taught a trial-running guildie of mine that you can gain the Undaunted skillline on a new character immediately. That is the closest we have to a questline that teaches you about dungeons (since it sends you to FG1 in EP and presumably BC1/SC1 elsewhere), and it's neither well-known nor in your face enough for new players. It's good that the teaching happens in a questline, but with something as big as dungeons, it should be more obvious to new players. It may be in the starter cities, but clearly the natural flow of gameplay doesn't have players facing this quest at the right time.
Perhaps doing a little intro quest should be required before gaining access to using dungeon finder. Nothing painful or immersion-breaking, but enough to prepare people. Those of us levelling alts will be able to bear with it (and maybe there are dialogue options that allow skipping; but the quest still has to be finished to gain DF access?).

I've mentioned this in previous threads, but for the ESO+ thing, there should be a way for subscribers to opt out of DLC they absolutely don't want, but there should be limits to this. If you want the dungeon DLC and play it, you have to face it in random queue. Opting out should be an all or nothing deal (though there should be some leeway to allow for a change of mind).

Heck, if ESO showed any capability of MMR, then queue should be able to place someone with no dungeon-running under their belt into a specific set of dungeons anyway, as that is how a smart dungeon finder should work. But that's a big 'if'.

FierceSam

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

I've mentioned this in previous threads, but for the ESO+ thing, there should be a way for subscribers to opt out of DLC they absolutely don't want, but there should be limits to this. If you want the dungeon DLC and play it, you have to face it in random queue. Opting out should be an all or nothing deal (though there should be some leeway to allow for a change of mind).

Heck, if ESO showed any capability of MMR, then queue should be able to place someone with no dungeon-running under their belt into a specific set of dungeons anyway, as that is how a smart dungeon finder should work. But that's a big 'if'.

The issue with ESO+ is that many players who sub don’t actually sub because of the DLC content and are not ready for it. While players who purchase the DLC dungeons clearly want to play them (although maybe not all the time). There needs to be some mechanic for players who sub but don’t want to do DLC dungeons to have the same random dungeon option that non-subscribers have.

MMR should not be a factor here. Mainly because it is much, much easier to let a player decide if they want to do/are ready for a DLC dungeon than it would be for ZOS to create a script intelligent and sophisticated enough to make the correct decision on that player’s behalf. Allowing the player to choose means you will get fewer frustrated players and that players who do get drawn in to fill gaps in DLC dungeons actually want to be there.

As an example, I might be very capable of doing DLC content on my dd, but I choose to build a tank. They get to L50, immediately get a ton of CP points, but don’t have a lot of skills or a decent set of gear and my tanking, while OK for normal vets would be a disgrace in, say vBRF.

I don’t want to faceroll through normal dungeons, because I learn nothing about tanking there. But if I do a random vet, as a tank I am almost guaranteed to get a DLC dungeon. That’s no help to anyone - it’s beyond my abilities, so again I learn nothing, while the dds who want to run the DLC will get frustrated and write angry posts about incapable tanks. No MMR is going to understand that this CP 1000+ tank is a just minted L50 or that I might be learning how to tank. But giving me the option to choose solves all of that without ZOS having to do any heavy lifting.

Varana

I'm not sure people here understand what the problem is.

It's not that players queuing for random get a random dungeon.

It's the disparity between queuing for a random dungeon without ESO+ (or having bought the dungeon DLCs), and with ESO+/DLCs.

Both times, it is the exact same thing you're doing - queuing for a random vet. Yet one part of the player base gets vastly more difficult content for that exact same action in the game.

idk wrote: »

Also, the DPS needed for the newer dungeons is probably less than the old dungeons. vCoA II has two real dps checks that low dps cannot pass. One boss is healed by their adds and two strong trash have atronach adds that keep spawning in greater numbers the longer it takes to kill the strong trash mob. When I used to queue solo as a tank to help the GF I did come across groups that could not get past them.

The main difference between the new dungeons and the old is the new dungeons require more paying attention to what is going on. Some seem to get tripped up by that.

Sorry, now it's getting ridiculous. Sure, CoA2 is one of the harder base game dungeons.
Still, there is no comparison to newer content like the Cancroid in Maarselok (kill it in three rounds or get stranglered), or frost statues in SCP (take them down fast or get frozen), or the Orb+Aurorans in DoM.

Raisin

FierceSam wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

I've mentioned this in previous threads, but for the ESO+ thing, there should be a way for subscribers to opt out of DLC they absolutely don't want, but there should be limits to this. If you want the dungeon DLC and play it, you have to face it in random queue. Opting out should be an all or nothing deal (though there should be some leeway to allow for a change of mind).

Heck, if ESO showed any capability of MMR, then queue should be able to place someone with no dungeon-running under their belt into a specific set of dungeons anyway, as that is how a smart dungeon finder should work. But that's a big 'if'.

The issue with ESO+ is that many players who sub don’t actually sub because of the DLC content and are not ready for it. While players who purchase the DLC dungeons clearly want to play them (although maybe not all the time). There needs to be some mechanic for players who sub but don’t want to do DLC dungeons to have the same random dungeon option that non-subscribers have.

MMR should not be a factor here. Mainly because it is much, much easier to let a player decide if they want to do/are ready for a DLC dungeon than it would be for ZOS to create a script intelligent and sophisticated enough to make the correct decision on that player’s behalf. Allowing the player to choose means you will get fewer frustrated players and that players who do get drawn in to fill gaps in DLC dungeons actually want to be there.

As an example, I might be very capable of doing DLC content on my dd, but I choose to build a tank. They get to L50, immediately get a ton of CP points, but don’t have a lot of skills or a decent set of gear and my tanking, while OK for normal vets would be a disgrace in, say vBRF.

I don’t want to faceroll through normal dungeons, because I learn nothing about tanking there. But if I do a random vet, as a tank I am almost guaranteed to get a DLC dungeon. That’s no help to anyone - it’s beyond my abilities, so again I learn nothing, while the dds who want to run the DLC will get frustrated and write angry posts about incapable tanks. No MMR is going to understand that this CP 1000+ tank is a just minted L50 or that I might be learning how to tank. But giving me the option to choose solves all of that without ZOS having to do any heavy lifting.

That is exactly what I was saying though. If they don't want the DLC at all, they should be able to opt out of it. They should not, however, be allowed to just opt out of it for queue reasons while actually subbing for the DLC and completing it.

But it's not working, is it? Players have the choice, and they choose to sign up for a random dungeon despite not being ready for it. They choose to queue for a list of dungeons that includes DLC, because the game gives them the option to. Either the game needs to not give them the option, or the game needs to adequately convey to them what they are getting themselves into, and the skills to assess whether it is a good choice for them or not (which right now, I think the game just doesn't do).
But people do have the choice right now. It's right there. They are making the wrong choice because they want the reward.

If you're new to tanking on that character, then you shouldn't queue for a random dungeon you're not ready for. Especially as an experienced player, you should know your capabilities. Queue for dungeons you feel comfortable doing, get your gear, etc. You should have the understanding of the game to know whether random dungeon is the right choice or not for you. The game is giving you a choice, and choosing to sign up for a random veteran dungeon when you yourself admit that you may not be ready for the outcome, would be a very stupid decision to make. You should know better, and practice in dungeons you feel ready to face, rather than signing up for something you cannot handle. It would be very selfish of you to risk jeopardizing the rest of the group's chance of getting someone better, just because you want a shot at a special reward.
Unless someone is holding a gun to your head forcing you to run random dungeons, all of your arguments about choice are completely unfounded. You have a choice. Who is pressuring you to run random dungeons if youre not ready for it? Who is making you? Other than your own greed for the reward it gives?

Nurable

The difficulty gap between, for example, normal Fungal Grotto 1 and normal Moonhunter Keep is enormous. Going further, I'd say normal Moonhunter Keep is harder than vet Fungal 1.

I did two moonhunters last night: One took 90 minutes as my team mates didn't get the mechanics. The second took about 15 minutes.

People fake queue in random normals and I'm fine with that as the content when you're above CP10 is much easier and you can't be one shot. With ZOS absolutely ignoring that there is an issue with tanking which makes it very unappealing to the majority of players, why punish us with this mix. You cannot do normal Moonhunter without a tank. But you can do vet fungal without a tank.

They need to split the difficulty out into four tears - normal base, vet base, normal dlc and vet dlc.

If they adjust the xp rewards to reflect, then it'll just motivate players to do the stuff they're not ready for. The xp gained should remain the same. However, they could reward with green, blue, purple and gold transmute crystals.

BejaProphet

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

A lovely idea, but it doesn’t take into account that there are many, many players who are very capable of doing the basic vet dungeons, are completely competent with version 2 vet dungeons, but are totally out of their depths in even normal DLC dungeons.

They don’t want to do DLC dungeons, they’re not ready for DLC dungeons and they’re no help at all to players who want to do DLC dungeons. They are thrown into DLC dungeons simply because the have subscribed to ESO+.

There are currently 14 DLC dungeons, so even if you could learn all the mechanics and tactics in 5 minutes of reading (very unlikely imho), that’s over an hour of studying before you’re ‘allowed’ to roll a random dungeon... or 5 minutes of time your ‘gut gud’ buddies aren’t going to let you have at the beginning of ‘their’ dungeon.

I think it’s much better for all concerned not to throw players who don’t want to do content into the content they don’t want to do (whether that’s DLC dungeons or PvP or whatever). Throwing players into DLC dungeons simply because they have subscribed is a stupid idea, which doesn’t benefit anyone.

I would much prefer an option to add DLC to my random dungeons. That way players who get DLC are players who want to play DLC dungeons.

Once again, nobody gets thrown into DLC dungeons for subscribing to ESO plus. They must actively choose it by selecting “put me in a random dungeon.”

Ryvyr

idk wrote: »

Ryvyr wrote: »

The discussion has shifted into value judgements from noting the disparity of Base and DLC (both non-veteran in expounded context) in the same random queue.

...

Again, if Base and DLC (both NV) were approximate in difficulty, then there would be no dilemma. Telling people L2P or invest more time on the casual side of game is self defeating and unproductive, and arguably incurious to substance.

The thread started with a value judgement. One that specifically said I want an easier option and reduced risk. That stemmed from a value judgement, one that stepped away from wanting a true random dungeon as the name implies.

Now here you begin to speak some logic. One that suggests those who are willing to risk getting a DLC dungeon can opt in so their random includes all but get a greater reward. I suggested a gold level reward for including DLC dungeons on the first page. I assume you would agree that is a good idea.

There might be different use of "value" here, as I was began with abbreviating a disparity in numbers check and game sense between those of normal base and those of normal DLC dungeons in dungeon finder.

From there other people seemed to imply or state L2P, invest more time, etc., which then shifted the thread more broadly into what constitutes difficulty, seemingly setting aside the original contention with how the Dungeon Finger is functioning as a prescriptive judgement like how a boxing federation would prescribe heavy weights and light weights together, for instance.

It is rather simple the premise - how to separate difficulty brackets without soft punishing casual players nor dedicated and focused players - for which creating a different pool for Base Only and for DLC (only or included) with different rewards would seem quite suitable. I did see the post suggesting a nugget of some sort(?) as reward for DLC, which if separating Base Only and DLC (only or included), that seems on the proper path to solution.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

You realize you should queue for normal if you're doing random ... right?

Because you're wasting three other players' time who are ready to go and complete the dungeon ... so you can selfishly roll the dice on getting a regular vet dungeon.

To repeat the point that somehow seems ignored, the current system is akin to a boxing federation pitting different weight classes together and doing nothing when everyone must funnel through that same line for a shared prize pool.

Creating incentive structures which, by the system's design, perpetuates an increased likelihood for people dropping out of DLCs straight away, quite arguably for everyone's time sake or the chance to quickly replace and hope it is someone capable and willing, helps nobody and remains a bloody thorn until addressed proper.

Not identifying the problematic structure, as well failing to see the problem in how it is framed, is feeding fuel to the fire rather than being fruitful in addressing the simple premise - that separating dungeon finder queue into Base Only and DLC (only or included) with different rewards would seem quite clearly to resolve this dilemma rather sharply.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Once again, nobody gets thrown into DLC dungeons for subscribing to ESO plus. They must actively choose it by selecting “put me in a random dungeon.”

Perhaps something is not connecting in the logic process? I ask sincerely.

Would filling a moat with piranhas be the same as with both piranhas and goldfish, if the objective was to swim to the other side in tact?

Since normal Base and normal DLC are not demonstrably not equal in numbers check and game sense requirement, how is it justified to place them in same queue for the same reward? Would it not seem more rational to separate them so that each is treated in accord?

Bobby_V_Rockit

BejaProphet wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

A lovely idea, but it doesn’t take into account that there are many, many players who are very capable of doing the basic vet dungeons, are completely competent with version 2 vet dungeons, but are totally out of their depths in even normal DLC dungeons.

They don’t want to do DLC dungeons, they’re not ready for DLC dungeons and they’re no help at all to players who want to do DLC dungeons. They are thrown into DLC dungeons simply because the have subscribed to ESO+.

There are currently 14 DLC dungeons, so even if you could learn all the mechanics and tactics in 5 minutes of reading (very unlikely imho), that’s over an hour of studying before you’re ‘allowed’ to roll a random dungeon... or 5 minutes of time your ‘gut gud’ buddies aren’t going to let you have at the beginning of ‘their’ dungeon.

I think it’s much better for all concerned not to throw players who don’t want to do content into the content they don’t want to do (whether that’s DLC dungeons or PvP or whatever). Throwing players into DLC dungeons simply because they have subscribed is a stupid idea, which doesn’t benefit anyone.

I would much prefer an option to add DLC to my random dungeons. That way players who get DLC are players who want to play DLC dungeons.

Once again, nobody gets thrown into DLC dungeons for subscribing to ESO plus. They must actively choose it by selecting “put me in a random dungeon.”

And once again, random is different for subscribers and non-subscribers. We just want the option to opt out and not waste everyones time with DLCs we are inevitably going to leave.

Personally, I’m perfectly happy bailing every time, I just want the nice relaxing dungeon, bit of XP, transmute stone and to enjoy my evening.

Nestor

Here is my proposal:

1. Random Dungeon, full experience bonus, normal expected loot, normal and dlc dungeons you have access to (because you own or subscribe)
2. Random Base Game Dungeon. Non DLC only, no experience boost, normal expected loot.
3. Story Mode. Dungeon is soloable, best through some Battle Spirit Mechanism. Normal Mob and Delve Boss loot tables commensurate with the zone the dungeon is in. No Monster Helms. Probably best to make it so you have to travel manually to the Dungeon. Reduce GF load.
4. Traditional form your own group, travel to and enter manually we have had for years, except that the boost people get for the using the GF is automatically given out. This cuts down on the GF load.

BejaProphet

@Ryvyr

You say you are sincerely asking, so I’m going to assume you mean it. I’ll give two ideas.

1.). My main objection is not the notion of different rewards. My main objection is the outright dishonesty with which it is presented. Right now players can literally choose to create a list of dungeons and tell the game to randomly put them in only one of those dungeons on the list. The ONLY thing you don’t get is the extra prizes. Yet players continually present this as ZOS robbing them of free will and forcing them to do something. This is dishonest. Rather than stating things plainly they want to frame the discussion in terms of oppression.

If you wish you could have some random rewards without doing DLC’s just say that. Don’t act like you are being forced to do DLC.

2.) The objective of random rewards is to help players be able to find a group for any dungeon they want to do. You will not appreciate how changes are breaking the system in place if you fail to understand the system in place. This is not a system to incentivize playing harder dungeons. The dungeons themselves have the rewards for that. This system is there to get me not to play harder dungeons, but get me to help another guy finish whatever dungeon he specifically needs to do. The actual goal of the system is to make it so when little Johnny queues up specifically for City of Ash 2, or Moon hunter Keep, or any specific dungeon he needs, he is immediately met with a flood of players who say, “Sure. I’m up for running anything.”

As soon as the rewards are given for doing the dungeons YOU feel are appropriate, the system is no longer creating a group of players who are rushing to fill groups in dungeons they might not have ever chosen.

If you want to change the random rewards, you must also create a new system generating this crowd of people willing to fill anygroup.

If THAT was done, and if people will quit being dishonest in how they advocate their position, then I promise you will find me a fan of adding more player choice to the game.

Agenericname

Nestor wrote: »

Here is my proposal:

1. Random Dungeon, full experience bonus, normal expected loot, normal and dlc dungeons you have access to (because you own or subscribe)
2. Random Base Game Dungeon. Non DLC only, no experience boost, normal expected loot.
3. Story Mode. Dungeon is soloable, best through some Battle Spirit Mechanism. Normal Mob and Delve Boss loot tables commensurate with the zone the dungeon is in. No Monster Helms. Probably best to make it so you have to travel manually to the Dungeon. Reduce GF load.
4. Traditional form your own group, travel to and enter manually we have had for years, except that the boost people get for the using the GF is automatically given out. This cuts down on the GF load.

With the exception of story mode, isn't that what we have now? Anyone can omit the DLCs from the queue and have that.

zShepplin

It would bee nice of the average dps in this game was not absolute ***. I love tanking random vets because I have met a handful of really great players, but my God the vast majority of the people playing dps in this game are borderline useless. How is it possible for a CP 300+ to do less than 20k dps when the tank is using Yoln, Alkosh, and infused golded out crusher staff, and the healer has Olo and decent combat prayer uptime?

Varana

BejaProphet wrote: »

If you wish you could have some random rewards without doing DLC’s just say that. Don’t act like you are being forced to do DLC.

Exactly that - because that is how things are for people who did not give ZOS money.
Don't pretend you never noticed that exactly that option - "random rewards without doing DLC’s" - is already in the game, and many players use exactly that. For these players, precisely that option that you dismiss and belittle is the normal way of doing randoms. There is a way of having the cake and eating it, too, and that way is to not throw money at ZOS. This is the stupidest incentive system I've ever come across.
It also speaks volumes about the difficulty spikes in this game that players see "I have to do DLC dungeons when queuing for random" as punishment and not as an opportunity that they would want to pay for.
Again - the issue is not that players want to pick and choose. The issue is that players want a level playing field, and Player A getting the same reward for a comparatively easy task as Player B for a much more difficult one, and Player B paying for that "honour", is moronic.

BejaProphet wrote: »

2.) The objective of random rewards is to help players be able to find a group for any dungeon they want to do. You will not appreciate how changes are breaking the system in place if you fail to understand the system in place. This is not a system to incentivize playing harder dungeons. The dungeons themselves have the rewards for that. This system is there to get me not to play harder dungeons, but get me to help another guy finish whatever dungeon he specifically needs to do. The actual goal of the system is to make it so when little Johnny queues up specifically for City of Ash 2, or Moon hunter Keep, or any specific dungeon he needs, he is immediately met with a flood of players who say, “Sure. I’m up for running anything.”

As soon as the rewards are given for doing the dungeons YOU feel are appropriate, the system is no longer creating a group of players who are rushing to fill groups in dungeons they might not have ever chosen.

But does it fulfil that purpose now? I very much doubt it.
As it stands now, queuing for a vetDLC that is not the pledge, is an exercise in futility. And if you get a group together, chances are high that one or more players will either immediately bail out, or are not really up to the task.
The system doesn't work even now. Players intentionally choosing to queue for vet-random including DLCs are very, very few.
Instead, they don't queue for vet-random at all, making the pool of players in base game dungeons smaller. You only see one side of those in vet dungeon queues, and that is the tiny minority.

BejaProphet

@Varana

I’ll keep the same divisions since you did so as well.

1.) Ok then. Now we are having an honest discussion I respect. I’m not dismissing it. I’m not belittling it. I’m asking people to stop mischaracterizing it. That’s a fair request for me to make.

2.) I think it very much is serving that function even if not perfectly accomplishing it. Remove it and the situation would be
much much worse. I’m open to improving the system while keeping that goal.

What I am arguing is that flat out bribing players to do absolutely ANY dungeon is important for game health specifically in order to improve the experience of those looking for help with a dungeon. We must let ZOS give that bribe.

Do you want to have a random reward for those not including certain dungeons? (DLC or otherwise). Fine. I couldn’t care less. Go for it. But ZOS then must be free to offer an even BIGGER bribe to get people to do ANY and ALL dungeons. And at that point will we not be back to the same arguments?

If you want to expand the system then fine. But at some point we must allow ZOS to bribe players to participate in dungeons that they specifically otherwise would have avoided. So that those who look to the group finder to do those specific dungeons will find help readily available.

Even if you disagree, can you at least understand that argument? (Not meant to be snarky; it’s a sincere question)

DMuehlhausen

Cry cry cry, wah wah wah. Maybe if people didn't bail every time a dungeon they didn't want came up and learned the flipping mechanics and got out of big red dumb people wouldn't struggle.

This happens in every single MMO. I remember how hard and impossible the 5 man ICC dungeons were in WoW when they came out. The start to the one where Arthas chases you. People swore this was impossible to do. After a short time of people just dealing with it it became flipping simple.

The same would happen here if people just didn't puss out the second RoM or FL or whatever came up. Stop bailing on people cause they haven't done it. Try to help people learn how to do them and you increase the pool of people that can do it and it stops being a problem.

Sennecca

Imagine this scenario: Two players of equal skill. who don't have killer dps, are learning dungeons. TThey are over cp300, so they queue for a random vet dungeon.

Non eso+ account selects random vet dungeon. (add I and II when appropriate) Can get fungal grotton , Spindleclutch, banished cells, darkshade, elden hollow, wayrest, arx , coa, crypt, direfrost tempest, volenfell, BH, blessed Crucible, Selenes or VOM. (Has a good chance of finishing the dungeon in under 1/2 hr as some ppl he may be grouped with could solo or duo most of these.). Gets the random dungeon reward at the end and monster helm at the end of every vet dungeon queue.


ESO + account selects random vet and has a good chance at being thrown into Fang Lair, SCP,BRF,
Falkreath Hold, ICP, WGT, COS, Mazzatun, MOS, MHK, Frostvault, DOM, Moongrave Fane, LOM Spends over an hour in
the harder dungeons, possibly watching people rage quit, spends at least twice the amount of time that the non eso plus person above did and may or may not get the random reward at the end.

By saying that someone should not queue for random vet and get the random daily reward if they can't do the harder dlc's is saying that they should be penalized because they have eso plus. After all, the non plus players are collecting daily rewards and do not have a chance at getting the dlc.

AlnilamE

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

A lovely idea, but it doesn’t take into account that there are many, many players who are very capable of doing the basic vet dungeons, are completely competent with version 2 vet dungeons, but are totally out of their depths in even normal DLC dungeons.

They don’t want to do DLC dungeons, they’re not ready for DLC dungeons and they’re no help at all to players who want to do DLC dungeons. They are thrown into DLC dungeons simply because the have subscribed to ESO+.

There are currently 14 DLC dungeons, so even if you could learn all the mechanics and tactics in 5 minutes of reading (very unlikely imho), that’s over an hour of studying before you’re ‘allowed’ to roll a random dungeon... or 5 minutes of time your ‘gut gud’ buddies aren’t going to let you have at the beginning of ‘their’ dungeon.

I think it’s much better for all concerned not to throw players who don’t want to do content into the content they don’t want to do (whether that’s DLC dungeons or PvP or whatever). Throwing players into DLC dungeons simply because they have subscribed is a stupid idea, which doesn’t benefit anyone.

I would much prefer an option to add DLC to my random dungeons. That way players who get DLC are players who want to play DLC dungeons.

Once again, nobody gets thrown into DLC dungeons for subscribing to ESO plus. They must actively choose it by selecting “put me in a random dungeon.”

And once again, random is different for subscribers and non-subscribers. We just want the option to opt out and not waste everyones time with DLCs we are inevitably going to leave.

Personally, I’m perfectly happy bailing every time, I just want the nice relaxing dungeon, bit of XP, transmute stone and to enjoy my evening.

For now. But IC got included into the base game, so non-subscribers now also get put into ICP and WGT. I'm sure this year a couple more DLCs will make it into the base game, and while they have a couple of non-dungeon DLCs to get through before they get to Shadows of the Hist and Horns of the Reach, it is a matter of time.

OP, would it be helpful if the group finder instead of the current order of the drop down was instead organized like this:

- Specific Dungeon
- Random Normal Dungeon
- Random Veteran Dungeon

That way people who don't want to run a DLC dungeon right away have the option to choose the dungeons they do want to run, while people like me who are actually signing up to be a hired sword for whatever dungeon can just pick that.

(It used to be that Random Veteran was the default and you had to swap it to normal if that's what you wanted to run).

BejaProphet

Sennecca wrote: »

Imagine this scenario: Two players of equal skill. who don't have killer dps, are learning dungeons. TThey are over cp300, so they queue for a random vet dungeon.

Non eso+ account selects random vet dungeon. (add I and II when appropriate) Can get fungal grotton , Spindleclutch, banished cells, darkshade, elden hollow, wayrest, arx , coa, crypt, direfrost tempest, volenfell, BH, blessed Crucible, Selenes or VOM. (Has a good chance of finishing the dungeon in under 1/2 hr as some ppl he may be grouped with could solo or duo most of these.). Gets the random dungeon reward at the end and monster helm at the end of every vet dungeon queue.


ESO + account selects random vet and has a good chance at being thrown into Fang Lair, SCP,BRF,
Falkreath Hold, ICP, WGT, COS, Mazzatun, MOS, MHK, Frostvault, DOM, Moongrave Fane, LOM Spends over an hour in
the harder dungeons, possibly watching people rage quit, spends at least twice the amount of time that the non eso plus person above did and may or may not get the random reward at the end.

By saying that someone should not queue for random vet and get the random daily reward if they can't do the harder dlc's is saying that they should be penalized because they have eso plus. After all, the non plus players are collecting daily rewards and do not have a chance at getting the dlc.

Everybody understands the complaint. We are NOT missing your point. The problem is that there are only two foreseeable fixes.

1.) Remove any bribe from ZOS to do absolutely ANY dungeon that a player needs help with. I am arguing this would be a major and unacceptable blow to game health.

2.). ZOS changes its pay scheme such that there is a version of ESO + that doesn’t open up dlc dungeons. Highly unlikely.

thadjarvis

Possible solution to the Random Dungeon problem:

Create a sort of MMR system

1. Rate all dungeons including vet/normal versions separately into difficulty segments using clear data available to ZoS. Eg normal 1 dungeons would be segment one. vICP might be segment 6 of 12 or whatever.
2. First random done by player will only place them is easiest segment
3. When a player clears a dungeon (in a PUG) their MMR rises. They need a few (2 to 5) clears at current level to rise. They are then only slotted into dungeons at the level they have currently cleared, all below that level and one above it.
4. Can add "carry" checks: DPS role did at least X% (40?) of the combined DPS of the 2 DD roles (not including healer), Healer did at least X% HPS of DD's healing received and maybe some formula to account for DPS as healing often isn't required, Tank died less than any other role and maintained aggro on Bosses and relevant elite adds by some percent. All data is available to ESO logs so ZoS must have it internally.
5. Some adjustment to speed up alt advancement. Has own MMR but advances faster through it and placed more than one level above current level. Pull data from other same role MMR's from other characters.

If a similar system were in place it would solve most if not all issues currently. Secondly, many more players would be delighted use random finder that currently do not. It also creates a nice guided progression system which we really could use.

Varana

@BejaProphet

Oh, I'm very much open to staggered rewards, or some similar system. At the moment, even the incentive to do random vets at all is not that great, and some overhaul of the random rewards system would be the best way to go forward.

Now, coming up with rewards that don't lead to an inflation of X, is apparently not that easy (at least for ZOS). Judging by how ZOS tried to increase the rewards for Battlegrounds and PvP dailies, such a reward system will probably involve grinding 50 dungeons for a fragment that needs to be combined into a thing with 50 keys, or some nonsense as such, and I'm not quite convinced that I want that. But again, some reform of the whole idea of random dungeons would be great.

And yes, I know that the random queue is there for filling up groups doing specific dungeons. I have argued that in the past. But what ZOS currently does, is not exactly bribing players into vetDLC dungeons. They bribe players into doing random vets - but force part of their player base to jump through much more difficult hoops to get the same bribe as others. And choosing which part of the players has to deal with what amount of hoops, has nothing to do with ability or willingness but purely with paying ZOS money. That's far from ideal.

And I don't think that staggered rewards depending on content (normal, +normal DLC, veteran, +veteran DLC) will meet with much resistance. Certainly not from me. These threads that are currently active were prompted not really by a desire to pick and choose, I think, but by the apparent "injustice"* of some getting the same rewards for easier content than the others.

I don't think our opinions are that far apart, in the end. To be honest, the overly dismissive and contemptuous tone of some comments has clouded the actual point of the discussion quite a lot.

* Don't take "injustice" too seriously. It's a video game. But I couldn't come up with a better word.

BejaProphet

@thadjarvis

Where would this leave a player who does not want to climb ranks, but they just want the gear from a specific dungeon for a build? Perhaps even So they can move on for PvP.

thadjarvis

@BejaProphet
Hm good points. Possibilities:

Allow player to cap their own MMR. The cost is reducing the pool at the higher end. Does anyone benefit from having people in group that don't want to be there.

If that doesn't work as ZoS/playerbase may want more participation in progressive difficulty, players could check an "easy" box such that it ensures that it won't be hard. Ie instead of say completing a few dungeons in current level to be placed into to next, it could be almost all several times when easy box is checked. That way it's not hard for the player. ZoS seems to want players to climb the ranks to some degree. My suggestion is to do it in a thought out slow matter such that the player that doesn't want to be challenged doesn't feel pushed. Eg even causual players that do nFG1 a dozen times can handle the next level of say nVoM without feeling pushed I would think. Careful segmenting all the way up can control it. More segments would make it quite gradual.

Players that just want a gear set from particular dungeon: Those typically wouldn't use random; they'd select the dungeon individually. I was just thinking about random only groups forgetting it will include specific selectors. Would it be good or bad to lock dungeons by an MMR system? They do it with CP/LvL, but that is almost a completely senseless metric. We could unlock dungeons by MMR level plus more than 1 level. Suppose there's 12 difficulty segments. Making a player do a progression of say 4 to 6 dungeons to get to the last segment seems fine. I mean how many cases are there such that a player that has run less than a half dozen dungeons can complete the latest DLC on vet?

Cage_Lizardman

thadjarvis wrote: »

Eg even causual players that do nFG1 a dozen times can handle the next level of say nVoM without feeling pushed I would think. Careful segmenting all the way up can control it. More segments would make it quite gradual.

This is a nice idea too. For starters people can only get the easiest dungeons as random, and they move up the ladder only once they clear those, as random, at their own pace. And you could let people limit themselves intentionally too.

BejaProphet

@Varana

I agree. Inflammatory tones can ruin what could really be a productive discussion.

And usually, people can come up with excellent ideas once they have really listened to what the other view is actually concerned about.

zvavi

Tbh i dont like the idea that is going on here, there is no point for the mmr if you give the option to limit anyway, better just leave the limit and ditch mmr idea. Another idea i had in another discussion

zvavi wrote: »

We got a problem. Majority of the community is subpar players, and tbh, i dont want gf to end up "only for elitists" kind of thing.

I think zos needs to give us more ingame tools to help players improve their dps, healing or tanking. Like you know, proper tutorials that later stages of tutorials are vMA difficulty, and make dungeons require specific stage of a specific tutorial to queue as the specific role. It will take care of fake dds, fake healers, and fake tanks in one swoop!

You know, something like spammable spamming with heavy for resources as stage 1 of dd (required for normal dungeons) with dot applying position and targetting as last stage of dd

Tank last stage on the other side will be tons of one shot aoes around, one shot heavies from 2 mobs with two different heavies that has different animation and timing, with stacking bleed effects that eat your health.and ask them to survive for a minute.

Then make queue put u with players of the same "stage"

You could apply it that a certain stage is required for vDLC.

Brandathorbel

On xbox I am cp 1200, on pc I decided to start anew. Currently cp 220. Skills still slightly underleveled. Equipment trying to farm because very little gold.

I use random dungeon daily to help get gear but mostly experience.

I had eso+ but 9 out of 10 times i get a dungeon i know i am not ready for gear wise. I know all the mechanics and all that because of the console account i have.

So i purposely let eso+ lapse to stop getting those dungeons i just can't do and will be a burden to the rest of the time.

The other day i got a level 12 in WGT. You end up taking 20 mins to kill every boss. Maybe some of you have nothing but time, but many of us dont.

so from a business perspective, kind of dumb dont you think to not have a separation being i am not the only one that cancels subs to not get those dungeons.

BejaProphet

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

thadjarvis

@zvavi

A training program would be great but that takes a lot of resources to implement. Thus, the MMR like ideas are possible solutions that do not require new content, testing, loot changes...nothing in the game actually changes. It's just a datamine. It could be a more readily cheaper way to approach the issue even though yes ZoS providing tools to help players learn would be great.


@FierceSam
I'm fine with people being able to self-select difficulty level but it seems ZoS is not. My idea above wouldn't put a tank alt into an instance above it's capability.

One issue with just allowing players to self-select alone is that they don't even have any indication of what's difficult. Is Vet Selene harder than nICP? I don't know; a new player certainly won't. An MMR system whether it is used to gate dungeon custom selection, cap difficulty appropriately for random, or just as an informational tool presented to players I think would help. IE, a dungeon and player rating system derived from data rather than our opinions can only be good. It would hurt no one if results are simply shown to user. If it is used for gating and randoms then yes there would be disagreement, but any result would likely improve over what exists.

(not tied to it in any way; just popped into head so rip it apart at will.)

zvavi

thadjarvis wrote: »

@zvavi

A training program would be great but that takes a lot of resources to implement. Thus, the MMR like ideas are possible solutions that do not require new content, testing, loot changes...

Tutorials dont give loot changes, it is new content, which is good for the game's health imo, and your mmr idea *does* require testing for best results.