Disparity of Base and DLC in Dungeon Finder

Brandathorbel

the other day i got falkreth, then bloodforge, then falkreth again, then falkreth again and then bloodforge.

what was all in one string.

Ryvyr

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

Players many times lack the mechanical skill and sometimes the dps to do it. I still think that one possible dps requirement for dlc dungeons could be vMA clear.
It checks dps. It checks mechanical skill. And it checks if u can actually attack while doing the mechanics.

There is no vMA clear required for any DLC dungeon.

If a player doesn’t have the mechanical skill or DPS, they will be aware to select normal random ... or risk being booted from the group if they queue for vet. Though in most cases it’s neither of those ... it’s the player not knowing dungeon mechanics.

...if you think that dds that go into vet dlc always have the mechanical skill and dps to clear it, my friend, you are dead wrong.

I agree, but that’s not the dungeon finder’s fault ... that’s on the player.

A player in that category is likely to have problems with regular vet dungeons too. They should queue for normal if that’s the case.

The discussion has shifted into value judgements from noting the disparity of Base and DLC (both non-veteran in expounded context) in the same random queue.

Separating the two into a different tier of reward - one for Base Only and one for DLC Included (or only?) - would very likely yield fruitful data whilst simultaneously improving quality of gametime across entire community.

If DLC are going to continue being disruptive from the aggregate of average participation, with expected apologetics from a minority of community embracing the stress and encroaching time investment of the majority, then it increasingly functions as a soft punishment rather than a more likely pleasant experience.

People will talk of unexpected consequences, and true to life, yet game mechanics can be harmlessly tested and implemented if well received - such as separating Base Only and DLC Included (or only?) in Dungeon Finder, for different rewards (or in the latter potential higher if landed into DLC), etc.

Again, if Base and DLC (both NV) were approximate in difficulty, then there would be no dilemma. Telling people L2P or invest more time on the casual side of game is self defeating and unproductive, and arguably incurious to substance.

gatekeeper13

idk wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

In my opinion ZOS should add a "transitional" difficulty mode between the two.

The normal difficulty is for those challenged with the vet difficulty.

The normal difficulty is way easier than veteran difficulty and the gap between the two is huge. Normal difficulty does not prepare you for veteran, as it should.

D0PAMINE

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

Players many times lack the mechanical skill and sometimes the dps to do it. I still think that one possible dps requirement for dlc dungeons could be vMA clear.
It checks dps. It checks mechanical skill. And it checks if u can actually attack while doing the mechanics.

Edit: also many times guides are misleading and not 100% correct.

I've never finished vMA but have completed all Vet DLC dungeons on my Tank and DPS main.

idk

Ryvyr wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

Players many times lack the mechanical skill and sometimes the dps to do it. I still think that one possible dps requirement for dlc dungeons could be vMA clear.
It checks dps. It checks mechanical skill. And it checks if u can actually attack while doing the mechanics.

There is no vMA clear required for any DLC dungeon.

If a player doesn’t have the mechanical skill or DPS, they will be aware to select normal random ... or risk being booted from the group if they queue for vet. Though in most cases it’s neither of those ... it’s the player not knowing dungeon mechanics.

...if you think that dds that go into vet dlc always have the mechanical skill and dps to clear it, my friend, you are dead wrong.

I agree, but that’s not the dungeon finder’s fault ... that’s on the player.

A player in that category is likely to have problems with regular vet dungeons too. They should queue for normal if that’s the case.

The discussion has shifted into value judgements from noting the disparity of Base and DLC (both non-veteran in expounded context) in the same random queue.

Separating the two into a different tier of reward - one for Base Only and one for DLC Included (or only?) - would very likely yield fruitful data whilst simultaneously improving quality of gametime across entire community.

If DLC are going to continue being disruptive from the aggregate of average participation, with expected apologetics from a minority of community embracing the stress and encroaching time investment of the majority, then it increasingly functions as a soft punishment rather than a more likely pleasant experience.

People will talk of unexpected consequences, and true to life, yet game mechanics can be harmlessly tested and implemented if well received - such as separating Base Only and DLC Included (or only?) in Dungeon Finder, for different rewards (or in the latter potential higher if landed into DLC), etc.

Again, if Base and DLC (both NV) were approximate in difficulty, then there would be no dilemma. Telling people L2P or invest more time on the casual side of game is self defeating and unproductive, and arguably incurious to substance.

The thread started with a value judgement. One that specifically said I want an easier option and reduced risk. That stemmed from a value judgement, one that stepped away from wanting a true random dungeon as the name implies.

Now here you begin to speak some logic. One that suggests those who are willing to risk getting a DLC dungeon can opt in so their random includes all but get a greater reward. I suggested a gold level reward for including DLC dungeons on the first page. I assume you would agree that is a good idea.

idk

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

In my opinion ZOS should add a "transitional" difficulty mode between the two.

The normal difficulty is for those challenged with the vet difficulty.

The normal difficulty is way easier than veteran difficulty and the gap between the two is huge. Normal difficulty does not prepare you for veteran, as it should.

Oh, I agree that normal difficulty should be increased so the mechanics are noticeable.

Heck, back in the day when DSA was new I had a group that ran vDSA constantly. Got many their first clear but we used nDSA to show them how we would do it and they had to do well on normal before we would bring them into vet. It proved to offer smooth vet runs from the start. Now it is useless to use normal in that manner.

validifyedneb18_ESO

New Normal := Old Normal non DLC
New Veteran := Old normal DLC, Old normal vet
New Immortal := Old vet DLC, ...Something new?

validifyedneb18_ESO

The only problem ofcourse isnt that DLC dungeons are any harder, just that they actually have this thing called "mechanics" which most players - certainly in standard queue, and certainly with how little the rest of ESO uses such an element of game design - have no *** clue what to do with.

Bobby_V_Rockit

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

Cage_Lizardman

I don't really want them nerfed, much. But allowing people not to queue for them as random would be a good idea.

I like to pug these, on vet. But especially Frostvault and Maarselok are nearly impossible. They're hard enough with competent players, and half the time you get a dd with 15k hp and less dps, or a tank that drops group as soon as you enter. It wouldn't save you from the people who think purple Tzogvin's is going to solve their <10k dps issues, but it would help.

Taleof2Cities

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

You realize you should queue for normal if you're doing random ... right?

Because you're wasting three other players' time who are ready to go and complete the dungeon ... so you can selfishly roll the dice on getting a regular vet dungeon.

Varana

No, they should not queue for normal. They should queue for vet because that is what they want to do, and are capable of doing. Vet base game, not DLC. It's not their fault that ZOS decided to punish players who pay them real money each month, with a much harder random queue than those who don't, for the same reward.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The only problem ofcourse isnt that DLC dungeons are any harder, just that they actually have this thing called "mechanics" which most players - certainly in standard queue, and certainly with how little the rest of ESO uses such an element of game design - have no *** clue what to do with.

Yeah, because the DPS needed for Maarselok is exactly the same as for Fungal 1, you just have to run around a bit more. *head->desk

Taleof2Cities

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

huntgod_ESO

There is actually a good mechanics reason for having regular and DLC content separated and anyone who'd been grouped with someone who doesn't have the DLC and unable to Q because it keeps trying to Q a DLC they don't have will understand.

I like random, but despise doing DLC without a good grp that I don't normally bother unless there is an event that requires it.

I also am in the camp that advocates for allowing "take first 4 available" as a Q option so you don't have long Q's.

Varana

Oh, I perfectly understand.
But what you don't seem to understand is that there is a huge gap (and it has become larger as new DLC dungeons get progressively harder) between players able to clear base game vet dungeons, and those who feel comfortable doing DLC vet dungeons. And it's just not about learning mechanics. There are several hard DPS tests in DLC dungeons that can't be circumvented by playing mechanics for longer, and those are not just a question of knowing what to do, it's also about being able to do it.
CP300 is a measure of time played, it has absolutely nothing to do with skill or knowledge. You can easily get to CP300 by questing. Now sure, those who did that should queue for normals first. But there are many players who are very much capable of clearing every base game vet dungeon but won't get very far in DLC ones.
So players who don't want to have DLC dungeons in their random queue, have several options:
Not queue for vet at all, depriving those who waiting in line for base game dungeons of a large pool of players willing and capable of joining.
Queue for vet and immediately leave when a DLC one comes up, not helping anyone, least those actually wanting to do the dungeon.
Queue for vet and try it, and fail. Again, that doesn't really help those who want to run the dungeon.
Only the last group - who try and succeed - will benefit you. And I would argue that that group is small enough that the damage done by option 1 - they don't queue at all and make the pool for base game dungeons much smaller - is way more impactful than the possibility that they will fill up a role in a DLC vet even though they didn't want it.

zaria

phileunderx2 wrote: »

During the eso plus free period I did a random on my alt account. Got normal MHK. I was healing and I bailed after the first trash pull as it was obvious that our "tank" was fake.
Base game dungeons are quite easy to complete no matter the roles, dlc's not so much.
upside I did get a cool hat for just walking in.

Normal DLC is around as hard as easier base game vet dungeons with some like moon hunter keep and march of sacrifice being harder.
So yes fakes especially in an weak group can easy get problems. Was in normal Scalecaller Peak with an group who all was below cp160. Real tank but probably had horrible gear as he felt like an fake, same with the DD, they had some rotation but I still did half the damage as an full healer like it would been an vet dlc.
I was farming Jorvuld's Guidance but their pieces would not be useful for me anyway and after wiping multiple times on first boss and they was doing random normal I joined them on another dungeon who was smooth.
I did that as they was an nice group, we discuses mechanic and stuff.

One issue is that the players doing normal's tend to be way weaker than the ones doing vet.

zaria

kargen27 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

Players many times lack the mechanical skill and sometimes the dps to do it. I still think that one possible dps requirement for dlc dungeons could be vMA clear.
It checks dps. It checks mechanical skill. And it checks if u can actually attack while doing the mechanics.

Edit: also many times guides are misleading and not 100% correct.

With some of the survival builds out and about designed specifically to get through vMA that accomplishment doesn't mean much other than you can clear solo content. When I get a DLC from a random queue and other players want to not even try it I suggest we at least go to the first boss and see how it goes. Sometimes we get to the boss and fail sometimes we make it through the dungeon. There are a lot of players that can do that content but have heard horror stories so are afraid to try. It's fun to see how excited some players get after their first clear.

An hint is to always do the pledge dungeons, they tend to get far better groups.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

You realize you should queue for normal if you're doing random ... right?

Because you're wasting three other players' time who are ready to go and complete the dungeon ... so you can selfishly roll the dice on getting a regular vet dungeon.

Mebbe ZOS should split the queue rather than forcing me into a product I never wanted or purchased then.

Contaminate

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

You realize you should queue for normal if you're doing random ... right?

Because you're wasting three other players' time who are ready to go and complete the dungeon ... so you can selfishly roll the dice on getting a regular vet dungeon.

Mebbe ZOS should split the queue rather than forcing me into a product I never wanted or purchased then.

You purchase them with ESO+, that’s a choice you make when you buy a sub that grants access to most DLCs.

There’s no reason for a split. People don’t want to queue random, they don’t have to and they won’t get the reward for it. The random queue is made to backfill groups, not as a freebie award.

If you want a first dungeon of the day reward, sure why not? A bit of gold and a bit of exp would entice some people to actually run things even if just to solo a dungeon. But let’s not pretend taking away a true random queue is a good thing for the dungeon-ing playerbase as a whole.

You aren’t entitled to the random daily exp. to be honest it’s not very useful anyway unless you’re switching to an entirely new playstyle and need to level skill lines you’ve never touched before. Undaunted is better earned by specific queues (to get the most quest completions) or random normals for the most efficient exp.

Tsar_Gekkou

It's funny how people who pay to support the game each month with eso+ are punished for doing so by not being able to opt out of dlc dungeons, while people who aren't subscribed don't have to deal with the mess.

SHANKS_63

I am currently an ESO+ subscriber and would LOVE the ability to opt out of DLC for random normal dungeons. Fake healers/tanks in a DLC makes matters worse; especially when they queue as friends so u cannot boot them.

idk

Varana wrote: »

No, they should not queue for normal. They should queue for vet because that is what they want to do, and are capable of doing. Vet base game, not DLC. It's not their fault that ZOS decided to punish players who pay them real money each month, with a much harder random queue than those who don't, for the same reward.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The only problem ofcourse isnt that DLC dungeons are any harder, just that they actually have this thing called "mechanics" which most players - certainly in standard queue, and certainly with how little the rest of ESO uses such an element of game design - have no *** clue what to do with.

Yeah, because the DPS needed for Maarselok is exactly the same as for Fungal 1, you just have to run around a bit more. *head->desk

Actually, it is their fault. They know what they are queuing for and still queue for it. Blaming their decision on someone else makes no sense.

Also, the DPS needed for the newer dungeons is probably less than the old dungeons. vCoA II has two real dps checks that low dps cannot pass. One boss is healed by their adds and two strong trash have atronach adds that keep spawning in greater numbers the longer it takes to kill the strong trash mob. When I used to queue solo as a tank to help the GF I did come across groups that could not get past them.

The main difference between the new dungeons and the old is the new dungeons require more paying attention to what is going on. Some seem to get tripped up by that.

AlnilamE

I used to be opposed, but you know what? Give people the option of opting out of DLC dungeons and lower their reward to the Blue tier rather than purple.

And the people who opt for ALL dungeons keep the purple reward.

Bobby_V_Rockit

AlnilamE wrote: »

I used to be opposed, but you know what? Give people the option of opting out of DLC dungeons and lower their reward to the Blue tier rather than purple.

And the people who opt for ALL dungeons keep the purple reward.

I would agree to this if it extended to non-ESO+ Players as well, seeing as they don’t ever risk getting a dlc.

kargen27

Varana wrote: »

No, they should not queue for normal. They should queue for vet because that is what they want to do, and are capable of doing. Vet base game, not DLC. It's not their fault that ZOS decided to punish players who pay them real money each month, with a much harder random queue than those who don't, for the same reward.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The only problem ofcourse isnt that DLC dungeons are any harder, just that they actually have this thing called "mechanics" which most players - certainly in standard queue, and certainly with how little the rest of ESO uses such an element of game design - have no *** clue what to do with.

Yeah, because the DPS needed for Maarselok is exactly the same as for Fungal 1, you just have to run around a bit more. *head->desk

They aren't being punished. The players are being stubborn and not taking advantage of being able to queue for specific dungeons. You can pick as many as you wish.

Nanfoodle

I'm almost 8 months into ESO. 540CP now and trying to get geared for healing. But the Vet dungeons that drop healing monster sets, I can't find a team with dungeon finder. So ya that sucks when a healer can't get a team.

zvavi

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I've never finished vMA but have completed all Vet DLC dungeons on my Tank and DPS main.

Fair. I stand corrected, but the problem still stays, people that can't complete the dungeon without being completely carried, queue for it. And others just leave when they get dlc dungeon in queue, kinda frustrating.

D0PAMINE

zvavi wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I've never finished vMA but have completed all Vet DLC dungeons on my Tank and DPS main.

Fair. I stand corrected, but the problem still stays, people that can't complete the dungeon without being completely carried, queue for it. And others just leave when they get dlc dungeon in queue, kinda frustrating.

I get that it is frustrating. I don't queue randos, but one of my friends tells me his horror stories, like him having to tank vDoM HM on his healer because of a fake tank that couldn't dps.

Waynerx8

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

Players many times lack the mechanical skill and sometimes the dps to do it. I still think that one possible dps requirement for dlc dungeons could be vMA clear.
It checks dps. It checks mechanical skill. And it checks if u can actually attack while doing the mechanics.

There is no vMA clear required for any DLC dungeon.

If a player doesn’t have the mechanical skill or DPS, they will be aware to select normal random ... or risk being booted from the group if they queue for vet. Though in most cases it’s neither of those ... it’s the player not knowing dungeon mechanics.

...if you think that dds that go into vet dlc always have the mechanical skill and dps to clear it, my friend, you are dead wrong.

I agree, but that’s not the dungeon finder’s fault ... that’s on the player.

A player in that category is likely to have problems with regular vet dungeons too. They should queue for normal if that’s the case.

They may have problems - but they will clear it. Base game vet dungeons are a completely different game to DLC vets, and I have no idea why that even is something that needs to be pointed out. You can safely go into most base game vet dungeons with a character that has no business in a DLC vet.

Nope.

That’s why the minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300.

Which will take care of the vast majority of players that can clear regular vet dungeons ... but not vet DLC ones.

After that, it’s on the player over CP300 to know the dungeon mechanics OR queue for normal so they don’t get booted for substandard gameplay.

I have seen no argument in this thread good enough for ZOS to consider making a change. Especially when separating the random queue would mean longer wait times for both sides - vet and vet DLC dungeons.

Bottom Line: Random means RANDOM ... a queue selection from all available choices including DLC dungeons.

Most forum-goers in this thread should be using their time to learn DLC mechanics online ... rather than wasting that time to make yet another forums post on the topic.

Oh good, so long as you have seen no argument for this then its settled, everyone you have been told.

FierceSam

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

A lovely idea, but it doesn’t take into account that there are many, many players who are very capable of doing the basic vet dungeons, are completely competent with version 2 vet dungeons, but are totally out of their depths in even normal DLC dungeons.

They don’t want to do DLC dungeons, they’re not ready for DLC dungeons and they’re no help at all to players who want to do DLC dungeons. They are thrown into DLC dungeons simply because the have subscribed to ESO+.

There are currently 14 DLC dungeons, so even if you could learn all the mechanics and tactics in 5 minutes of reading (very unlikely imho), that’s over an hour of studying before you’re ‘allowed’ to roll a random dungeon... or 5 minutes of time your ‘gut gud’ buddies aren’t going to let you have at the beginning of ‘their’ dungeon.

I think it’s much better for all concerned not to throw players who don’t want to do content into the content they don’t want to do (whether that’s DLC dungeons or PvP or whatever). Throwing players into DLC dungeons simply because they have subscribed is a stupid idea, which doesn’t benefit anyone.

I would much prefer an option to add DLC to my random dungeons. That way players who get DLC are players who want to play DLC dungeons.