Disparity of Base and DLC in Dungeon Finder

Agenericname

BejaProphet wrote: »

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

12 CP more than likely, which has the capacity to clear it. Otherwise they'd have to bypass the RDF and wouldn't be relevant to this topic.

AlnilamE

thadjarvis wrote: »

Possible solution to the Random Dungeon problem:

Create a sort of MMR system

1. Rate all dungeons including vet/normal versions separately into difficulty segments using clear data available to ZoS. Eg normal 1 dungeons would be segment one. vICP might be segment 6 of 12 or whatever.
2. First random done by player will only place them is easiest segment
3. When a player clears a dungeon (in a PUG) their MMR rises. They need a few (2 to 5) clears at current level to rise. They are then only slotted into dungeons at the level they have currently cleared, all below that level and one above it.
4. Can add "carry" checks: DPS role did at least X% (40?) of the combined DPS of the 2 DD roles (not including healer), Healer did at least X% HPS of DD's healing received and maybe some formula to account for DPS as healing often isn't required, Tank died less than any other role and maintained aggro on Bosses and relevant elite adds by some percent. All data is available to ESO logs so ZoS must have it internally.
5. Some adjustment to speed up alt advancement. Has own MMR but advances faster through it and placed more than one level above current level. Pull data from other same role MMR's from other characters.

If a similar system were in place it would solve most if not all issues currently. Secondly, many more players would be delighted use random finder that currently do not. It also creates a nice guided progression system which we really could use.

The thing is, even people who are perfectly capable of clearing the DLC dungeons want the "quick and easy" version a lot of the time, particularly during events when running dungeons with multiple alts is encouraged. That's why ZOS fixed the "join a random dungeon and port to FG1 for the reward" issue.

Also, consider that all dungeons are already unlocked as you level. So if you queue at level 10, you will only get the first three dungeons and so on. That's essentially the same idea.

I'm not comfortable with putting limitations up like that, because people *can* do the DLC dungeons at level 45 if they pay attention to the mechanics. But if you are going to limit people, then make them only able to join a random group once they have cleared ALL the dungeons their account has access to (and this locks them out every time there's a DLC that adds dungeons).

That way, if you get someone from the random queue, you know that they have cleared the dungeon you are in at least once.

Brandathorbel

BejaProphet wrote: »

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

it can when they walk in already grouped, believe me i was asking that to why there was a level 12 but there was one.

Contaminate

Once again, the disparity between standard dungeons and DLC dungeons typically boils down to “Players can no longer ignore mechanics, this surprises and frustrates them”

There are exceptions, of course. Some have hard dps checks some players are incapable of passing whereas basegame dps checks are incredibly low if they have any. Some are bugged (hi there FV laserbot, FV disappearing atro). But like I said, those are the exceptions as to what usually ends up the basis of a doomed run: lack of willingness to follow mechanics.

AlnilamE

Varana wrote: »

I'm not sure people here understand what the problem is.

It's not that players queuing for random get a random dungeon.

It's the disparity between queuing for a random dungeon without ESO+ (or having bought the dungeon DLCs), and with ESO+/DLCs.

Both times, it is the exact same thing you're doing - queuing for a random vet. Yet one part of the player base gets vastly more difficult content for that exact same action in the game.

idk wrote: »

Also, the DPS needed for the newer dungeons is probably less than the old dungeons. vCoA II has two real dps checks that low dps cannot pass. One boss is healed by their adds and two strong trash have atronach adds that keep spawning in greater numbers the longer it takes to kill the strong trash mob. When I used to queue solo as a tank to help the GF I did come across groups that could not get past them.

The main difference between the new dungeons and the old is the new dungeons require more paying attention to what is going on. Some seem to get tripped up by that.

Sorry, now it's getting ridiculous. Sure, CoA2 is one of the harder base game dungeons.
Still, there is no comparison to newer content like the Cancroid in Maarselok (kill it in three rounds or get stranglered), or frost statues in SCP (take them down fast or get frozen), or the Orb+Aurorans in DoM.

First of all, I have ESO+ and I queue for random dungeons with my eyes open. But I do queue for normals because I know I can finish those.

Now, that being said, I have played since before One Tamriel, when the I dungeons were normal and the II dungeons were vet. I listened to guildies spend a Saturday afternoon getting through Vet Fungal Grotto, getting past Gamyne Bandu and then the Spawn of Mephala.

I have heard Malubeth the Scourger say "You'll not leave here alive" so many times as a guildie was trying to get through that dungeon at the beginning that I shudder every time she says it.

I spent many hours trying to get through Vet Spindleclutch the first time. We were at Praxin so long that one of my guildies accidentally deconstructed her glove when she wanted to repair them. I still make a point of kicking Praxin in SC I when we go through.

These are all easier now because of CP and the scaling of One Tamriel, but I figure that's why old-timers don't mind getting the DLC dungeons in their random as much as newer people who are in a hurry to level and just want their XP as fast as they can get it.

BejaProphet

xbobx15 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

it can when they walk in already grouped, believe me i was asking that to why there was a level 12 but there was one.

No. A premade wouldn’t work. They would have had to specifically invite the level 12 AFTER already in the dungeon.

Unless you mean 12cp, as another poster suggested.

Nestor

Agenericname wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Here is my proposal:

1. Random Dungeon, full experience bonus, normal expected loot, normal and dlc dungeons you have access to (because you own or subscribe)
2. Random Base Game Dungeon. Non DLC only, no experience boost, normal expected loot.
3. Story Mode. Dungeon is soloable, best through some Battle Spirit Mechanism. Normal Mob and Delve Boss loot tables commensurate with the zone the dungeon is in. No Monster Helms. Probably best to make it so you have to travel manually to the Dungeon. Reduce GF load.
4. Traditional form your own group, travel to and enter manually we have had for years, except that the boost people get for the using the GF is automatically given out. This cuts down on the GF load.

With the exception of story mode, isn't that what we have now? Anyone can omit the DLCs from the queue and have that.

I am lazy, i don't want to check all those boxes....😴

idk

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Instead of all these fancy solutions listed above, what would happen if players just took 5 minutes to read up on the mechanics of a DLC dungeon ... so that they can complete it when the random queue pops?

A lovely idea, but it doesn’t take into account that there are many, many players who are very capable of doing the basic vet dungeons, are completely competent with version 2 vet dungeons, but are totally out of their depths in even normal DLC dungeons.

They don’t want to do DLC dungeons, they’re not ready for DLC dungeons and they’re no help at all to players who want to do DLC dungeons. They are thrown into DLC dungeons simply because the have subscribed to ESO+.

There are currently 14 DLC dungeons, so even if you could learn all the mechanics and tactics in 5 minutes of reading (very unlikely imho), that’s over an hour of studying before you’re ‘allowed’ to roll a random dungeon... or 5 minutes of time your ‘gut gud’ buddies aren’t going to let you have at the beginning of ‘their’ dungeon.

I think it’s much better for all concerned not to throw players who don’t want to do content into the content they don’t want to do (whether that’s DLC dungeons or PvP or whatever). Throwing players into DLC dungeons simply because they have subscribed is a stupid idea, which doesn’t benefit anyone.

I would much prefer an option to add DLC to my random dungeons. That way players who get DLC are players who want to play DLC dungeons.

Not really. People are just choosing to do things the hard way. The game should not try to cater to people who cannot be bothered to form a group ahead of time and work through the challenges.

So as I said before. Offer an opportunity to toggle DLC dungeons on and off. For those who toggle it on they get a gold level reward (or bump the non-DLC random to blue quality. Or just make the DLC a solo queue and offer the higher reward for that and the blue quality reward for non-DLC. The full quality of the reward would be based on how many DLC dungeons one has access to. Basically a good selling point for ESO+ and sales of DLC dungeons.

Risk vs reward is maintained, Zos gets some sales and people who cannot be bothered to figure out how to do DLC dungeons can continue with the easy content.

IndianaJames7

The primary purpose of random dungeon finder is to fill groups more quickly for other players that have selected specific dungeons, not to guarantee players a quick and easy geode/xp. Removing dlcs from the primary queue would defeat the purpose.

Brandathorbel

BejaProphet wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

it can when they walk in already grouped, believe me i was asking that to why there was a level 12 but there was one.

No. A premade wouldn’t work. They would have had to specifically invite the level 12 AFTER already in the dungeon.

Unless you mean 12cp, as another poster suggested.

No, it was level 12 no cp.

Agenericname

xbobx15 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

it can when they walk in already grouped, believe me i was asking that to why there was a level 12 but there was one.

No. A premade wouldn’t work. They would have had to specifically invite the level 12 AFTER already in the dungeon.

Unless you mean 12cp, as another poster suggested.

No, it was level 12 no cp.

If that's the case, they had to bypass the RDF. That's not really relevant to this topic since it wasn't used.

Brandathorbel

Agenericname wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

xbobx15 wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Unless something has changed, a level 12 can not be placed in WGT.

it can when they walk in already grouped, believe me i was asking that to why there was a level 12 but there was one.

No. A premade wouldn’t work. They would have had to specifically invite the level 12 AFTER already in the dungeon.

Unless you mean 12cp, as another poster suggested.

No, it was level 12 no cp.

If that's the case, they had to bypass the RDF. That's not really relevant to this topic since it wasn't used.

it was part to answer to people leaving dungeons. If your group is seriously underpowered it doesnt matter if you know the mechanics, you are in for a long and painful ride.

that is why i leave dungeons if i am on pc and feel i will hold the group back.so because of that, had to cancel eso+ until i have the gear and cp to make me useful in those dungeons

BejaProphet

@idk has a fine solution. It would remove the impression of being punished for having eso+ at the very least.

I’m sure some would still complain that they don’t get the max rewards without risk but it remains the best idea I’ve heard.

BejaProphet

@xbobx15 point being that the example you use was avoiding the system as designed, and can’t be used as an example of the system.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Back to the OP though, why is there such a huge difficulty spike between base and dlc? Seems incredibly divisive, I have enjoyed earlier DLC stories and the mechanics werent too obnoxious to pick up, but now its just getting silly. Its a video game, we shouldn’t have to study a guide with intensity of a doctoral exam just to play it right?

validifyedneb18_ESO

Varana wrote: »

No, they should not queue for normal. They should queue for vet because that is what they want to do, and are capable of doing. Vet base game, not DLC. It's not their fault that ZOS decided to punish players who pay them real money each month, with a much harder random queue than those who don't, for the same reward.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

The only problem ofcourse isnt that DLC dungeons are any harder, just that they actually have this thing called "mechanics" which most players - certainly in standard queue, and certainly with how little the rest of ESO uses such an element of game design - have no *** clue what to do with.

Yeah, because the DPS needed for Maarselok is exactly the same as for Fungal 1, you just have to run around a bit more. *head->desk

If you dont die, you dont lose. Only a few bosses in this game have a rush mechanic where you need to hit a specific dps.

Taleof2Cities

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Back to the OP though, why is there such a huge difficulty spike between base and dlc? Seems incredibly divisive, I have enjoyed earlier DLC stories and the mechanics werent too obnoxious to pick up, but now its just getting silly. Its a video game, we shouldn’t have to study a guide with intensity of a doctoral exam just to play it right?

That's why there's a queue for normal, @Bobby_V_Rockit ... for players that don't want to learn mechanics OR players still getting accustomed to a new role or class.

Contaminate

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Back to the OP though, why is there such a huge difficulty spike between base and dlc? Seems incredibly divisive, I have enjoyed earlier DLC stories and the mechanics werent too obnoxious to pick up, but now its just getting silly. Its a video game, we shouldn’t have to study a guide with intensity of a doctoral exam just to play it right?

I don’t know how you’ve been approaching mechanics, but I’ve never had to read upon mechanics to pick up on how things worked except in the last fight of Scalecaller since some death circles became life savers. There are an absolute ton of visual queues in dungeons. They explain mechanics as you go in most cases.

Some are a bit overboard, ghost riots in vFL comes to mind. But the mechanic is explained. In DoM Radiant Orb fight, there are multiple one screen prompts about orbs empowering the enemies, and each one is color coded to what’s being empowered. The final boss has color coded and name coded adds consistent with other enemies that came before it with the same damage patterns (scintillating imps for example).

In vLoM on the seed boss, you’ve seen stranglers poison groupmates. You’re prompted by NPCs to pick up the seed and cleanse the tree. The big bad AoEs are standard and the main challenge comes from keeping everyone standing close enough for cleanses if you have the dps to focus the main boss. Otherwise it’d just a matter of moving as a group to kill stranglers.

You have to pay attention and be willing to learn, but after that DLC dungeons aren’t nearly so daunting.

Raisin

Ryvyr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ryvyr wrote: »

The discussion has shifted into value judgements from noting the disparity of Base and DLC (both non-veteran in expounded context) in the same random queue.

...

Again, if Base and DLC (both NV) were approximate in difficulty, then there would be no dilemma. Telling people L2P or invest more time on the casual side of game is self defeating and unproductive, and arguably incurious to substance.

The thread started with a value judgement. One that specifically said I want an easier option and reduced risk. That stemmed from a value judgement, one that stepped away from wanting a true random dungeon as the name implies.

Now here you begin to speak some logic. One that suggests those who are willing to risk getting a DLC dungeon can opt in so their random includes all but get a greater reward. I suggested a gold level reward for including DLC dungeons on the first page. I assume you would agree that is a good idea.

There might be different use of "value" here, as I was began with abbreviating a disparity in numbers check and game sense between those of normal base and those of normal DLC dungeons in dungeon finder.

From there other people seemed to imply or state L2P, invest more time, etc., which then shifted the thread more broadly into what constitutes difficulty, seemingly setting aside the original contention with how the Dungeon Finger is functioning as a prescriptive judgement like how a boxing federation would prescribe heavy weights and light weights together, for instance.

It is rather simple the premise - how to separate difficulty brackets without soft punishing casual players nor dedicated and focused players - for which creating a different pool for Base Only and for DLC (only or included) with different rewards would seem quite suitable. I did see the post suggesting a nugget of some sort(?) as reward for DLC, which if separating Base Only and DLC (only or included), that seems on the proper path to solution.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

You realize you should queue for normal if you're doing random ... right?

Because you're wasting three other players' time who are ready to go and complete the dungeon ... so you can selfishly roll the dice on getting a regular vet dungeon.

To repeat the point that somehow seems ignored, the current system is akin to a boxing federation pitting different weight classes together and doing nothing when everyone must funnel through that same line for a shared prize pool.

Creating incentive structures which, by the system's design, perpetuates an increased likelihood for people dropping out of DLCs straight away, quite arguably for everyone's time sake or the chance to quickly replace and hope it is someone capable and willing, helps nobody and remains a bloody thorn until addressed proper.

Not identifying the problematic structure, as well failing to see the problem in how it is framed, is feeding fuel to the fire rather than being fruitful in addressing the simple premise - that separating dungeon finder queue into Base Only and DLC (only or included) with different rewards would seem quite clearly to resolve this dilemma rather sharply.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Once again, nobody gets thrown into DLC dungeons for subscribing to ESO plus. They must actively choose it by selecting “put me in a random dungeon.”

Perhaps something is not connecting in the logic process? I ask sincerely.

Would filling a moat with piranhas be the same as with both piranhas and goldfish, if the objective was to swim to the other side in tact?

Since normal Base and normal DLC are not demonstrably not equal in numbers check and game sense requirement, how is it justified to place them in same queue for the same reward? Would it not seem more rational to separate them so that each is treated in accord?

Contaminate wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Back to the OP though, why is there such a huge difficulty spike between base and dlc? Seems incredibly divisive, I have enjoyed earlier DLC stories and the mechanics werent too obnoxious to pick up, but now its just getting silly. Its a video game, we shouldn’t have to study a guide with intensity of a doctoral exam just to play it right?

I don’t know how you’ve been approaching mechanics, but I’ve never had to read upon mechanics to pick up on how things worked except in the last fight of Scalecaller since some death circles became life savers. There are an absolute ton of visual queues in dungeons. They explain mechanics as you go in most cases.

Some are a bit overboard, ghost riots in vFL comes to mind. But the mechanic is explained. In DoM Radiant Orb fight, there are multiple one screen prompts about orbs empowering the enemies, and each one is color coded to what’s being empowered. The final boss has color coded and name coded adds consistent with other enemies that came before it with the same damage patterns (scintillating imps for example).

In vLoM on the seed boss, you’ve seen stranglers poison groupmates. You’re prompted by NPCs to pick up the seed and cleanse the tree. The big bad AoEs are standard and the main challenge comes from keeping everyone standing close enough for cleanses if you have the dps to focus the main boss. Otherwise it’d just a matter of moving as a group to kill stranglers.

You have to pay attention and be willing to learn, but after that DLC dungeons aren’t nearly so daunting.

The NPCs also almost always tell you what to do, and the trash fights try to teach you the mechanics. They just don't do a good job of it (not mimicking the boss fight closely enough or just plain allowing you to skip them), and a lot of people miss the importance of the NPC calls -- once you've realized that they tell you what to do, you realize how much the game actually teaches you. There will always be people who are ignorant of this, but overall I think it's ZOS that does a bad job at leading people into dungeon mechanics, and thus DLC dungeons. If the transition was done skillfully and smoother, this huge divide between them wouldn't exist.

thadjarvis

Curious, is queuing for a Random Vet or Random Normal the cause of the primary issue being discussed?

I think I’m unaware of precisely how it works:

Is the XP bonus for Vet higher than doing Normal?

Ie what is the purpose of queuing for random Vet if quick and easy XP is the goal?

If there’s another goal wouldn’t the player select the dungeon(s) they specifically want to do on Vet (or normal) for pledges, motifs, gear, fun, etc.?

Raisin

thadjarvis wrote: »

Curious, is queuing for a Random Vet or Random Normal the cause of the primary issue being discussed?

I think I’m unaware of precisely how it works:

Is the XP bonus for Vet higher than doing Normal?

Ie what is the purpose of queuing for random Vet if quick and easy XP is the goal?

If there’s another goal wouldn’t the player select the dungeon(s) they specifically want to do on Vet (or normal) for pledges, motifs, gear, fun, etc.?

The EXP bonus is the same. Generally I think the people queuing for random vet know that random normal would be easy if they were just going for random normal. However, random vet still holds fun for a lot of people. Also, in my personal experience, there's just as high a chance of me getting a really a fast run of a random vet as there is of me getting a slow run in random normal that ends up taking the same time or longer.

Contaminate

Raisin wrote: »

Ryvyr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ryvyr wrote: »

The discussion has shifted into value judgements from noting the disparity of Base and DLC (both non-veteran in expounded context) in the same random queue.

...

Again, if Base and DLC (both NV) were approximate in difficulty, then there would be no dilemma. Telling people L2P or invest more time on the casual side of game is self defeating and unproductive, and arguably incurious to substance.

The thread started with a value judgement. One that specifically said I want an easier option and reduced risk. That stemmed from a value judgement, one that stepped away from wanting a true random dungeon as the name implies.

Now here you begin to speak some logic. One that suggests those who are willing to risk getting a DLC dungeon can opt in so their random includes all but get a greater reward. I suggested a gold level reward for including DLC dungeons on the first page. I assume you would agree that is a good idea.

There might be different use of "value" here, as I was began with abbreviating a disparity in numbers check and game sense between those of normal base and those of normal DLC dungeons in dungeon finder.

From there other people seemed to imply or state L2P, invest more time, etc., which then shifted the thread more broadly into what constitutes difficulty, seemingly setting aside the original contention with how the Dungeon Finger is functioning as a prescriptive judgement like how a boxing federation would prescribe heavy weights and light weights together, for instance.

It is rather simple the premise - how to separate difficulty brackets without soft punishing casual players nor dedicated and focused players - for which creating a different pool for Base Only and for DLC (only or included) with different rewards would seem quite suitable. I did see the post suggesting a nugget of some sort(?) as reward for DLC, which if separating Base Only and DLC (only or included), that seems on the proper path to solution.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I just bail on every single DLC dungeon I get, I never bought them, I subscribe for the craft bag and DLC zones. So I eat the 15 minute penalty and smile every time. Usually I just type “nope” into area chat and leave immediately.

Not wasting my time, 15 minutes is still less than the time it’d take to attempt and fail at the dungeon anyway

You realize you should queue for normal if you're doing random ... right?

Because you're wasting three other players' time who are ready to go and complete the dungeon ... so you can selfishly roll the dice on getting a regular vet dungeon.

To repeat the point that somehow seems ignored, the current system is akin to a boxing federation pitting different weight classes together and doing nothing when everyone must funnel through that same line for a shared prize pool.

Creating incentive structures which, by the system's design, perpetuates an increased likelihood for people dropping out of DLCs straight away, quite arguably for everyone's time sake or the chance to quickly replace and hope it is someone capable and willing, helps nobody and remains a bloody thorn until addressed proper.

Not identifying the problematic structure, as well failing to see the problem in how it is framed, is feeding fuel to the fire rather than being fruitful in addressing the simple premise - that separating dungeon finder queue into Base Only and DLC (only or included) with different rewards would seem quite clearly to resolve this dilemma rather sharply.

BejaProphet wrote: »

Once again, nobody gets thrown into DLC dungeons for subscribing to ESO plus. They must actively choose it by selecting “put me in a random dungeon.”

Perhaps something is not connecting in the logic process? I ask sincerely.

Would filling a moat with piranhas be the same as with both piranhas and goldfish, if the objective was to swim to the other side in tact?

Since normal Base and normal DLC are not demonstrably not equal in numbers check and game sense requirement, how is it justified to place them in same queue for the same reward? Would it not seem more rational to separate them so that each is treated in accord?

Contaminate wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Back to the OP though, why is there such a huge difficulty spike between base and dlc? Seems incredibly divisive, I have enjoyed earlier DLC stories and the mechanics werent too obnoxious to pick up, but now its just getting silly. Its a video game, we shouldn’t have to study a guide with intensity of a doctoral exam just to play it right?

I don’t know how you’ve been approaching mechanics, but I’ve never had to read upon mechanics to pick up on how things worked except in the last fight of Scalecaller since some death circles became life savers. There are an absolute ton of visual queues in dungeons. They explain mechanics as you go in most cases.

Some are a bit overboard, ghost riots in vFL comes to mind. But the mechanic is explained. In DoM Radiant Orb fight, there are multiple one screen prompts about orbs empowering the enemies, and each one is color coded to what’s being empowered. The final boss has color coded and name coded adds consistent with other enemies that came before it with the same damage patterns (scintillating imps for example).

In vLoM on the seed boss, you’ve seen stranglers poison groupmates. You’re prompted by NPCs to pick up the seed and cleanse the tree. The big bad AoEs are standard and the main challenge comes from keeping everyone standing close enough for cleanses if you have the dps to focus the main boss. Otherwise it’d just a matter of moving as a group to kill stranglers.

You have to pay attention and be willing to learn, but after that DLC dungeons aren’t nearly so daunting.

The NPCs also almost always tell you what to do, and the trash fights try to teach you the mechanics. They just don't do a good job of it (not mimicking the boss fight closely enough or just plain allowing you to skip them), and a lot of people miss the importance of the NPC calls -- once you've realized that they tell you what to do, you realize how much the game actually teaches you. There will always be people who are ignorant of this, but overall I think it's ZOS that does a bad job at leading people into dungeon mechanics, and thus DLC dungeons. If the transition was done skillfully and smoother, this huge divide between them wouldn't exist.

Where ZOS goes wrong is making normal mode and all of overland as easy and forgiving as it is. Players learn they can ignore mechanics completely with little or no consequences. Once that stops being the case, it just blows their minds and they instantly feel cheated.

FierceSam

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

I've mentioned this in previous threads, but for the ESO+ thing, there should be a way for subscribers to opt out of DLC they absolutely don't want, but there should be limits to this. If you want the dungeon DLC and play it, you have to face it in random queue. Opting out should be an all or nothing deal (though there should be some leeway to allow for a change of mind).

Heck, if ESO showed any capability of MMR, then queue should be able to place someone with no dungeon-running under their belt into a specific set of dungeons anyway, as that is how a smart dungeon finder should work. But that's a big 'if'.

The issue with ESO+ is that many players who sub don’t actually sub because of the DLC content and are not ready for it. While players who purchase the DLC dungeons clearly want to play them (although maybe not all the time). There needs to be some mechanic for players who sub but don’t want to do DLC dungeons to have the same random dungeon option that non-subscribers have.

MMR should not be a factor here. Mainly because it is much, much easier to let a player decide if they want to do/are ready for a DLC dungeon than it would be for ZOS to create a script intelligent and sophisticated enough to make the correct decision on that player’s behalf. Allowing the player to choose means you will get fewer frustrated players and that players who do get drawn in to fill gaps in DLC dungeons actually want to be there.

As an example, I might be very capable of doing DLC content on my dd, but I choose to build a tank. They get to L50, immediately get a ton of CP points, but don’t have a lot of skills or a decent set of gear and my tanking, while OK for normal vets would be a disgrace in, say vBRF.

I don’t want to faceroll through normal dungeons, because I learn nothing about tanking there. But if I do a random vet, as a tank I am almost guaranteed to get a DLC dungeon. That’s no help to anyone - it’s beyond my abilities, so again I learn nothing, while the dds who want to run the DLC will get frustrated and write angry posts about incapable tanks. No MMR is going to understand that this CP 1000+ tank is a just minted L50 or that I might be learning how to tank. But giving me the option to choose solves all of that without ZOS having to do any heavy lifting.

That is exactly what I was saying though. If they don't want the DLC at all, they should be able to opt out of it. They should not, however, be allowed to just opt out of it for queue reasons while actually subbing for the DLC and completing it.

But it's not working, is it? Players have the choice, and they choose to sign up for a random dungeon despite not being ready for it. They choose to queue for a list of dungeons that includes DLC, because the game gives them the option to. They are making the wrong choice because they want the reward.

If you're new to tanking on that character, then you shouldn't queue for a random dungeon you're not ready for. . You have a choice. Who is pressuring you to run random dungeons if youre not ready for it? Who is making you? Other than your own greed for the reward it gives?

You are wrong. Currently, players who subscribe do not ‘choose’ to include the DLC dungeons, the DLC dungeons are thrust upon them. They do not have the option to play the same random game as non-subscribers. That’s not fair and it’s not sensible. And that’s what the OP is flagging.

It means that if my tank, which is perfectly capable of doing all the normal vet dungeons thank you very much, wants to get the same daily XP bonus every non-subbing player can get, he runs a massively disproportional risk of getting a DLC dungeon which he is not ready for simply because I am stupid enough to have an ESO+ subscription. That doesn’t help anyone.

Saying that players “shouldn’t be doing random dungeons they’re not ready for” is inane. And it’s not practical. But allowing players to separate out the much tougher DLC dungeons does make sense. Everyone understands that they are harder content (which is a good thing) and players know when they are ready and/or in the mood for them. Giving players the choice of whether or not to include them in their random daily dungeon makes sense.

Contaminate

FierceSam wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

I've mentioned this in previous threads, but for the ESO+ thing, there should be a way for subscribers to opt out of DLC they absolutely don't want, but there should be limits to this. If you want the dungeon DLC and play it, you have to face it in random queue. Opting out should be an all or nothing deal (though there should be some leeway to allow for a change of mind).

Heck, if ESO showed any capability of MMR, then queue should be able to place someone with no dungeon-running under their belt into a specific set of dungeons anyway, as that is how a smart dungeon finder should work. But that's a big 'if'.

The issue with ESO+ is that many players who sub don’t actually sub because of the DLC content and are not ready for it. While players who purchase the DLC dungeons clearly want to play them (although maybe not all the time). There needs to be some mechanic for players who sub but don’t want to do DLC dungeons to have the same random dungeon option that non-subscribers have.

MMR should not be a factor here. Mainly because it is much, much easier to let a player decide if they want to do/are ready for a DLC dungeon than it would be for ZOS to create a script intelligent and sophisticated enough to make the correct decision on that player’s behalf. Allowing the player to choose means you will get fewer frustrated players and that players who do get drawn in to fill gaps in DLC dungeons actually want to be there.

As an example, I might be very capable of doing DLC content on my dd, but I choose to build a tank. They get to L50, immediately get a ton of CP points, but don’t have a lot of skills or a decent set of gear and my tanking, while OK for normal vets would be a disgrace in, say vBRF.

I don’t want to faceroll through normal dungeons, because I learn nothing about tanking there. But if I do a random vet, as a tank I am almost guaranteed to get a DLC dungeon. That’s no help to anyone - it’s beyond my abilities, so again I learn nothing, while the dds who want to run the DLC will get frustrated and write angry posts about incapable tanks. No MMR is going to understand that this CP 1000+ tank is a just minted L50 or that I might be learning how to tank. But giving me the option to choose solves all of that without ZOS having to do any heavy lifting.

That is exactly what I was saying though. If they don't want the DLC at all, they should be able to opt out of it. They should not, however, be allowed to just opt out of it for queue reasons while actually subbing for the DLC and completing it.

But it's not working, is it? Players have the choice, and they choose to sign up for a random dungeon despite not being ready for it. They choose to queue for a list of dungeons that includes DLC, because the game gives them the option to. They are making the wrong choice because they want the reward.

If you're new to tanking on that character, then you shouldn't queue for a random dungeon you're not ready for. . You have a choice. Who is pressuring you to run random dungeons if youre not ready for it? Who is making you? Other than your own greed for the reward it gives?

You are wrong. Currently, players who subscribe do not ‘choose’ to include the DLC dungeons, the DLC dungeons are thrust upon them. They do not have the option to play the same random game as non-subscribers. That’s not fair and it’s not sensible. And that’s what the OP is flagging.

It means that if my tank, which is perfectly capable of doing all the normal vet dungeons thank you very much, wants to get the same daily XP bonus every non-subbing player can get, he runs a massively disproportional risk of getting a DLC dungeon which he is not ready for simply because I am stupid enough to have an ESO+ subscription. That doesn’t help anyone.

Saying that players “shouldn’t be doing random dungeons they’re not ready for” is inane. And it’s not practical. But allowing players to separate out the much tougher DLC dungeons does make sense. Everyone understands that they are harder content (which is a good thing) and players know when they are ready and/or in the mood for them. Giving players the choice of whether or not to include them in their random daily dungeon makes sense.

The random queue is there the backfill groups. It's not there to give you the random exp reward like so many here seem to think it is. If we took out the random rewards for opt-outs, then sure you can separate the queues, but we all know this is about people wanting rewards while ignoring the purpose of the GF system. People don't want to opt out of DLCs because they "don't feel ready", so much as they want easy exp without any risk of spending more than 20minutes earning it.

You buy ESO+, you are implicitly agreeing to make yourself available for DLC dungeons when you random queue. If that's not what you want, don't sub. Personally it would be far more productive to become more skilled so you never have to worry about getting a DLC, or find friends who you trust to run them with, but this game's population is unfortunately much opposed to being told to improve themselves when they struggle in any content.

FierceSam

thadjarvis wrote: »

@zvavi

A training program would be great but that takes a lot of resources to implement. Thus, the MMR like ideas are possible solutions that do not require new content, testing, loot changes...nothing in the game actually changes. It's just a datamine. It could be a more readily cheaper way to approach the issue even though yes ZoS providing tools to help players learn would be great.


@FierceSam
I'm fine with people being able to self-select difficulty level but it seems ZoS is not. My idea above wouldn't put a tank alt into an instance above it's capability.

One issue with just allowing players to self-select alone is that they don't even have any indication of what's difficult. Is Vet Selene harder than nICP? I don't know; a new player certainly won't. An MMR system whether it is used to gate dungeon custom selection, cap difficulty appropriately for random, or just as an informational tool presented to players I think would help. IE, a dungeon and player rating system derived from data rather than our opinions can only be good. It would hurt no one if results are simply shown to user. If it is used for gating and randoms then yes there would be disagreement, but any result would likely improve over what exists.

(not tied to it in any way; just popped into head so rip it apart at will.)

I don’t think ZOS (or anyone) would be capable of building a system that would be able to judge what my tank was capable of on a particular day better than me. And it’s certainly financially detrimental to try.

For instance it might/would have a hard time answering your question. Whereas I can definitely say, “Yes (for me) vet Selene’s is a significantly harder tank challenge than normal ICP” and I could tell you why. But we might get the opposite answer from another player. Additionally, the MMR can’t tell that I’d happily do both if I was with one or two friends. It can’t tell that while I’m happy to tank anything on my DK tank, I know that my Warden tank needs more practice before he’s ready.

This is a case of a simple solution to a recognised issue. As OP says, DLC dungeons are significantly harder than non-DLC ones (and that’s a good thing), so give players the choice of whether to include them as part of their random daily dungeon.

Raisin

FierceSam wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I don't think you've read anything in the thread, @Verana ... it's either your way or the highway.

So, let's recap the key points for you:

- The minimum CP requirement for vet DLC dungeons is CP300. That's the line ZOS says players should be able to complete a vet DLC dungeon.

- If a player over CP300 knows they can not complete a vet DLC dungeon, they should not queue for random vet. Such actions hold up the queue, and, inconvenience three (3) other players who are ready to complete the random vet queue.

- Splitting the random queue is neither in players' interest nor ZOS's interest ... since it would increase the wait times on both sides.

- ESO+ does not penalize players for having DLC dungeons included in the random queue. Players penalize themselves by being lazy and not learning the DLC mechanics for a quick and efficient clear (again, only players over CP300 for vet).

I like DLC dungeons. But my first journey into a DLC dungeon, even with a very capable group in discord, can take hours as we learn the mechanics and the teamwork required.

CP is no indication of ability whatsoever. I subscribe and did my first dungeon at CP 460 (and yes I was no help to anyone in BC1 let alone anywhere else). Suggesting that at that point I should have read up on every dungeon is fatuous, not least because it would not have helped anyone.

My first normal random, RoM, was such an unpleasant experience that I didn’t bother to do another dungeon for a year. Players who are totally capable on all non-DLC vet dungeons may still not be ready for DLC ones. It should be their choice, not something forced on them.

Putting players who cannot complete the content, into content they cannot complete benefits no one. The best way to determine whether a player can/cannot complete is the player themselves. I’d rather wait a little longer to get players who are able to complete my chosen DLC dungeon, than get some poor 300CP+ player who’s never been in a DLC dungeon and doesn’t want to be there a few minutes sooner. I fully understand those players who bail and take a 15 minute penalty as soon as they hit a DLC dungeon.

ZOS does penalise players who sub in the random queues by imposing a roughly 36%+ chance of being flung into a DLC dungeon. That’s a crap reward for players who don’t want to do DLC dungeons but do want to support the game.

But you’re right, players do penalise themselves. It’s called subbing.

I've mentioned this in previous threads, but for the ESO+ thing, there should be a way for subscribers to opt out of DLC they absolutely don't want, but there should be limits to this. If you want the dungeon DLC and play it, you have to face it in random queue. Opting out should be an all or nothing deal (though there should be some leeway to allow for a change of mind).

Heck, if ESO showed any capability of MMR, then queue should be able to place someone with no dungeon-running under their belt into a specific set of dungeons anyway, as that is how a smart dungeon finder should work. But that's a big 'if'.

The issue with ESO+ is that many players who sub don’t actually sub because of the DLC content and are not ready for it. While players who purchase the DLC dungeons clearly want to play them (although maybe not all the time). There needs to be some mechanic for players who sub but don’t want to do DLC dungeons to have the same random dungeon option that non-subscribers have.

MMR should not be a factor here. Mainly because it is much, much easier to let a player decide if they want to do/are ready for a DLC dungeon than it would be for ZOS to create a script intelligent and sophisticated enough to make the correct decision on that player’s behalf. Allowing the player to choose means you will get fewer frustrated players and that players who do get drawn in to fill gaps in DLC dungeons actually want to be there.

As an example, I might be very capable of doing DLC content on my dd, but I choose to build a tank. They get to L50, immediately get a ton of CP points, but don’t have a lot of skills or a decent set of gear and my tanking, while OK for normal vets would be a disgrace in, say vBRF.

I don’t want to faceroll through normal dungeons, because I learn nothing about tanking there. But if I do a random vet, as a tank I am almost guaranteed to get a DLC dungeon. That’s no help to anyone - it’s beyond my abilities, so again I learn nothing, while the dds who want to run the DLC will get frustrated and write angry posts about incapable tanks. No MMR is going to understand that this CP 1000+ tank is a just minted L50 or that I might be learning how to tank. But giving me the option to choose solves all of that without ZOS having to do any heavy lifting.

That is exactly what I was saying though. If they don't want the DLC at all, they should be able to opt out of it. They should not, however, be allowed to just opt out of it for queue reasons while actually subbing for the DLC and completing it.

But it's not working, is it? Players have the choice, and they choose to sign up for a random dungeon despite not being ready for it. They choose to queue for a list of dungeons that includes DLC, because the game gives them the option to. They are making the wrong choice because they want the reward.

If you're new to tanking on that character, then you shouldn't queue for a random dungeon you're not ready for. . You have a choice. Who is pressuring you to run random dungeons if youre not ready for it? Who is making you? Other than your own greed for the reward it gives?

You are wrong. Currently, players who subscribe do not ‘choose’ to include the DLC dungeons, the DLC dungeons are thrust upon them. They do not have the option to play the same random game as non-subscribers. That’s not fair and it’s not sensible. And that’s what the OP is flagging.

It means that if my tank, which is perfectly capable of doing all the normal vet dungeons thank you very much, wants to get the same daily XP bonus every non-subbing player can get, he runs a massively disproportional risk of getting a DLC dungeon which he is not ready for simply because I am stupid enough to have an ESO+ subscription. That doesn’t help anyone.

Saying that players “shouldn’t be doing random dungeons they’re not ready for” is inane. And it’s not practical. But allowing players to separate out the much tougher DLC dungeons does make sense. Everyone understands that they are harder content (which is a good thing) and players know when they are ready and/or in the mood for them. Giving players the choice of whether or not to include them in their random daily dungeon makes sense.

Mate I've addressed the ESO+ topic a bunch of times now. Not gonna repeat that if you don't feel like reading it. People are still choosing to click a button that signs them up for a random dungeon, including DLC. They may not LIKE that it works the way it does, but they're still choosing to enter that queue, knowing how it works. Saying that they're forced to run a DLC dungeon is very different from saying that they're forced to have the DLC dungeons available to them.

The concept that getting a DLC dungeon is a 'risk' is purely subjective. Your risk of getting a dungeon you don't want is bigger than others because you don't want to get a large amount of the dungeons. If I queue for a random dungeon, my risk is similar, because I don't want to get a non-DLC dungeon. But that's because of my personal dislike for certain results, and I am aware that if I want the random dungeon bonus, that is a risk I have to take. If you feel like your tank is only capable of doing specific dungeons, then you need to make an educated choice of what to queue for. The random bonus is not a right, not a necessity, not something you are entitled to. Things do not have to be bent so you can do it for as little effort as you want to put into it. It's a bonus, completely optionial, for completing a certain bonus activity no one has to do.

People can already separate dungeons. They just don't get anything extra for it! And that's okay! Go do something you enjoy that gives you EXP! You don't need to get everything if the activities to get it don't appear to you. Getting to choose which dungeons you wanna run and offering the system to allow it to throw you into anything - come hell or high water -- for an additional reward are two very different things. You still gain gear and experience running other dungeons. That's your non-random reward.

Ryvyr

BejaProphet wrote: »

Even if you disagree, can you at least understand that argument? (Not meant to be snarky; it’s a sincere question)

I would ask the same. Communication can be tricky, it seems best to focus on core of what someone is attempting to convey and hold to the principle of charity, whilst expecting there will be a mix of people hiding their desire as well being earnest yet failing to deliver their point.

To that end, here is my brief opening post of this thread, which unfortunately has has become filled with red herrings, ad hominem, and some tired arguments about "back in my day" ;p

(For disclosure, I began Everquest in 99 and am intimately aware with true grinding, unforgiving death penalty, and the myriad arguments from nostalgia as surely many others are)

Ryvyr wrote: »

Title: Disparity of Base and DLC in Dungeon Finder

Please either separate into two categories or scale them down in line to be less sadistic?

A few hours spare to play with bad luck in groups, and the raised blood pressure as result, is something easily addressed within context (setting aside the business angle which underlies all changes, casual to hardcore retention profit ratios, limits of abysmal RNG loot crate tolerance, etc).

Gratitude and Regards,
Ryv

In that, I tried to summarize the core issue, a minimum solution (scaling DLC to be inline with Base or separating the queue), and an admittedly cynical mention of how such changes might impact game health - which you also raised around the same area in thread I am quoting from.

It remains the same question for devs and whatever concerns effect what devs can do.

A note here about "extra prizes" as framed - I would argue that exp boost is a large draw of why doing random to begin with, so perhaps the proposed Base Only would have exp boost only whilst DLC (only or included) would have total reward?

With more CP comes more minimal ability to contribute more in combat and climb higher, etc., a self-motivating system to gradually encourage more DLC (only or included) randoms, as proposed.

BejaProphet wrote: »

I agree. Inflammatory tones can ruin what could really be a productive discussion.

And usually, people can come up with excellent ideas once they have really listened to what the other view is actually concerned about.

Verily so, and it has been illuminating and educating reading up to this point (up to current as typing). Irrevocably, we all constantly strive to maintain cognitive cohesion and tend to avoid cognitive dissonance. When posed with a notion not conforming with our worldview, the backfire effect can strike suddenly and fiercely, further detracting from fruitful discourse. Within that self awareness, reception to other views tends to increase.

To everyone:

Some proposals up this point resonate with what I was getting at from the start - anticipating some X% of people to, for any number of reasons, take issue with spreading rewards for broader paths of cooperation, then lowering the reward for a lower difficulty whilst not punishing which side one falls on with OT/ESO+ seems the most mutually beneficial (or even benign) solution implemented with the least amount of fuss or contrast.

It still does not fully address the gap in people needing DLC for story (perhaps convert those into solo/same missions?), which, per the alternative proposal, scaling DLC down to Base would address that problem - before accounting for the werkload on devs.

So it returns to the former, in that separating the queues into Base Only and DLC (only or included), with exp boost as only reward for Base Only and full reward for DLC (only or included) seems the most seamless solution.

If neither, then artificially maintained division and stress within context will continue, with some caring about that more than others.

Regardless if that view is shared or not, I do sincerely appreciate any substantive feedback for better or worse.

Kombinator

I think, that the most satisfying method would be introducing a new level, and nerf vet. DLC stuff to base-game level.

New difficulty would be serious even for non-DLC, and would provide better gear of course.

In base-game dungeons as tank it's rare, that i actually need to be careful about anything. I can stand into all AOE, take all hit face on, and don't even lose any health. Only exception is Crypt of Hearts 2 oneshot aura. By the way tons of players die on that one.

In DLC it's quite often, that there are AOEs, that destroy me super fast, or onehits non-tank players. Hell even some regular trash mob has serious power. Like in FV those trolls, that hit 100k.+ on base. Without blocking+health shield they onehit the tank.