ZOS' content rush

Woodenplank

I'm not sure if Zenimax have developed a "that'll do" attitude, or if some poor, honest developers are being goaded into rushing unfinished products (wouldn't surprise me; just think of an unmodded, unpatched 11/11/11 Skyrim, or ESO in its 2014 release), but I think we need a shakeup.

ZOS seems to always take the simplest, easiest approach. This approach "works", but it's often blunt and boring, and diminishes the game.
Some examples from the newest (PTS) patch:

Battleground Queue
Now first; credit where credit is due. ZOS listened to player complaints about the randoms vs. premade groups disparity, and did something about it. Even though it was a problem that only bothered a small number of players.
But ZOS took the simplest, easiest, dumbest solution possible. Just remove group-queueing entirely. No separate group and solo queue, no "custom game" mode where you could set up group vs. group. They just removed the ability to play with friends... in a "Massive multiplayer Online" game.

Blackreach
SPOILERS for Greymoor prologue:

For the Greymoor release they chose to implement Blackreach. Good idea. How do you get there? There's a ladder from a tavern. No epic dungeon diving; just a trapdoor and a ladder.
What was the developer discussion on this?

A: So we wanna get Blackreach in Skyrim. It'll really proc the nostalgia.
B: Great, so how do we implement it? A deep dwemer ruin that finally leads to an elevator down to the depths of Blackreach?
A: Sounds like a lot of work. How about just a ladder in a basement?
B: ...?
A: Yeah it's not like people want to do adventures in an RPG; just get people down there as fast as possible. Cashing in early has never caused any issues for any game/company/storyline/etc. ever.

EDIT: Since people keep talking about this, here's a video detailing the issue. It's neither a "placeholder entrance" or a "shortcut once you've found the main one".

@ZOS - you do realize that once you're done releasing Skyrim; that's it on the nostalgia, right? Cyrodiil and the Imperial City been out for years; all of Vvardenfell has been released. There'll be no significant nostalgia bombs to drop. You're on your own.
And you're still rushing it...

I can think of a million issues about the game, and write long winded discussions and suggestions, but I don't really trust ZOS to fix anything, because at this point it's company policy to ignore issues until they become so glaring that they just drop some "nuclear solution" that completely destroys a type of gameplay.

You know if ZOS had a medical practice, and you came to them with a small infection in your finger, they'd amputate the whole hand.

EDIT: I swear I'm normally mellow guy who doesn't often "vent" on the internet. It's only because I like the Elder Scrolls so much, I'm sad to see it rushing past like this.
EDIT2: Changed Bethesda to Zenimax. Sorry about that.

[Title edited for unnecessary bashing]

Wise_Will

Hol' up, the entrance to Blackreach is a ladderr? what the AF.

Are we certain that is the main entrance, or just a shortcut one once you have found the main entrance?

curtisnewton

Maybe someone build the tavern above the entrance on purpose. Or the entrance was a ruin and s.o. Used the fundament and stones already there to build?

AgaTheGreat

I hope more game developers were like CD PROJECT RED...

Unfortunately, all Bethesda IPs recently had awful launches. At least we're not playing Fallout 76 😜

Artorias24

I kinda have the same feeling when i Take a look at recent and future DLC/Content.

Dragonhold for example only contained Overland Questing Zone. Compared to the other Q4 DLC who were Clockwork (New Trial with new Weapons) and Murkmire (New Arena with new Weapons) it was the worst one from its content value.

This years chapter brings two new skillines for tressure hunting. Two skill lines that dont have any effect on combat. We get a few new gear to wear wich needs to be grinded but thats it so far from what we know... Last chapters had classes and skill lines to add new stuff to your Combat that you use mainly in this game.

So ye, not looking forward to the new Content drops we get for the same price like always but less content.

Sergykid

we don't always need new again and again new. Tweaking what we have currently would be more lovely. Half the landscape of the game is dead land or dead AI. Make stuff more intelligent overall, like larger world boss arenas that take more neurons to fight, or some vertical terrain like Bosmer houses, there's much stuff to actually make cooler.

but this is it, even if it sucks for us, it's a company looking for money. They'll just push whatever milks more money, and this is normal. Back then games were better because were made for the players, not for the company. But look where those games got to, stopped activity.

i wish government would allocate 0.1% of random money for a company that develops a game for the society, making it pleasing with a dedicated team to make the game perfect and not in rush for money.

snoozy

the ladder thing lmao

LoneStar2911

My bet is that ESO won't be putting out anymore [decent] content in 2-3 years and the game will slowly die.
Sad, but I really do feel like they're running out of material and taking the easy/cheap/quick option too often these days.

I hope the ladder thing is just a shortcut for afterwards, and we find the place in a much more adventurous way.

Nemesis7884

I do think that zos puts out content at a very decent pace compared to other mmos...must be tough to keep that scedule.

AT THE SAME TIME...

a lot of the issues zos is facing such as constamt rebalancing amd performance are homemade AND

eso seems to have large and growing player numbers (15m?) which should equaö more money...so why not hire more people - at least temporary to pushat least balancing and performance out so you can focus purely on content again...

jircris11

First off bethesda has NOTHING to do with eso. That would be zenimax online studio. Second, there is no way you can know about this "ladder" as it's not even on the pts, it may be a place holder. And lastly it's not the devs who are "rushing" it's the lively shareholders. Remember devs them self want an awesome game and work longer hours then even most medical crew members because of some rich investors wants for immediate returns. And lastly bethesda and ZOS are part if zenimax who is the parent company.

Veesk

It was stated in pts patch notes that the battleground solo queue is part experiment so there could be changes in the future again. It probably has a lot to do with changes they want to make to their matchmaking system and the population of people queuing up for battlegrounds. Just sounds like an evolving situation right now. Ideally in the future there can be a solo only queue and a group only queue.

As for complaints about Greymoor and Blackreach it’s not even out on PTS yet so waiting to actually see content and test it is probably better than preemptive complaining.

Regardless, I agree with everything @jircris11 said.

Woodenplank

jircris11 wrote: »

First off bethesda has NOTHING to do with eso. That would be zenimax online studio.

Sorry about that. Changed it to Zenimax (Online).
That being said; Bethesda seems to have had much the same attitude when Skyrim was made. And since their both subsidiaries of Zenimax, I think some parallels can be drawn.

jircris11 wrote: »

And lastly it's not the devs who are "rushing" it's the lively shareholders. Remember devs them self want an awesome game and work longer hours then even most medical crew members because of some rich investors wants for immediate returns. And lastly bethesda and ZOS are part if zenimax who is the parent company.

Hence why I started off with the possibility of "[...] some poor, honest developers are being goaded into rushing unfinished products".
I realize I was quite bashful in the original post, and maybe I was unfair. But again; the BG group queue's blunt removal (Subject to change or not), it was a terribly unimaginative solution to a long-standing problem - Yet somehow I can't imagine the "board of shareholders" commanding that "battlegrounds be fixed ASAP, with the simplest/fastest solution". It's not like there's a significant amount of money hinging on Battleground matchmaking.

jircris11 wrote: »

Second, there is no way you can know about this "ladder" as it's not even on the pts, it may be a place holder.

ArcaneFeathers wrote: »

As for complaints about Greymoor and Blackreach it’s not even out on PTS yet so waiting to actually see content and test it is probably better than preemptive complaining.

It's in the prologue quest; read more in this thread, or alternatively see a youtube video here. It is, quite evidently, not just a place holder. It's a small quest where you follow Lyris Titanborn (with voice lines and everything) into a house, searching through it until you find a trap door into the basement; which has a "secret door behind a cabinet" leading to Blackreach.

ArcaneFeathers wrote: »

It was stated in pts patch notes that the battleground solo queue is part experiment so there could be changes in the future again. It probably has a lot to do with changes they want to make to their matchmaking system and the population of people queuing up for battlegrounds. Just sounds like an evolving situation right now. Ideally in the future there can be a solo only queue and a group only queue.

And they've received a tonne of backlash for it. And yes, it might change before release. That's good, but if they decide to change it, it's based on the (extreme) player outrage. They should never have considered it a valid solution to begin with. People complain about the occasional premade vs. randoms? Just completely wipe out the group-queue and make BGs a solo venture.
It's not a very imaginative solution. Splitting BGs into a "solo queue" and "group queue", like so many other competitive games have done with matchmaking, isn't perfect. But it's certainly a whole lot better than simply trying to cut it entirely.

Again an analogy; show up to a doctor with a mild infection in your finger, and he says "we'll amputate the hand" - you might talk him out of it, but that should never have been the go-to solution to begin with.

---

I'm not saying the developers are incompetent. I'm speaking out against the "rush content; add more stuff to crown store; more, more, more as soon as possible" mentality that seems to pervade the game.
And please, don't tell me "it's a company, they have to make money" - because plenty of developers take their time with releases, and still turn a profit. But Zenimax is steadily entering a "FIFA" or "Call of Duty" phase where they're consistently pumping out content, with decreasing quality, because they know their loyal, nostalgic fans will gobble it up.

But as I said; Skyrim is their last big nostalgia hit. There are no more familiar lands to explore when they're done. So after Dark Heart of Skyrim, their next batch of DLC will have to stand on its own - and at this rate; I'm not sure it can.

Royaji

ZOS has recently started work on a new project and it seems that the majority of the team was moved to this project. According to one of the Community Ambassadors who has visited ZOS's HQ for some event, there are 60 people working on ESO. 60 people. Total.

This is the very definition of maintenance mode. A skeleton crew will keep the lights going and will slowly finish up and release very safe and generic content they had pre-planned before. They just don't have the capacity to do anything fancy and exciting.

Veesk

Woodenplank wrote: »

It's in the prologue quest; read more in this thread, or alternatively see a youtube video here. It is, quite evidently, not just a place holder. It's a small quest where you follow Lyris Titanborn (with voice lines and everything) into a house, searching through it until you find a trap door into the basement; which has a "secret door behind a cabinet" leading to Blackreach.

I've completed the prologue, actually really enjoyed it. There are supposed to be multiple entrances to Blackreach, this isn't the only one, just the one for the prologue quest. I wouldn't be concerned with that too much unless just this one specific entrance bothers you. It's not the first time we have gone through a hatch door into some sort of cave or delve in game.

As for your response about the solo queue... I mean I have heard a lot of people advocate for it? I've heard people who are against it. The only takeaway is that not everyone will be happy at any given point, so hopefully in the future there will be enough people playing BGs to warrant two queue types instead of one.

Woodenplank

Royaji wrote: »

ZOS has recently started work on a new project and it seems that the majority of the team was moved to this project. According to one of the Community Ambassadors who has visited ZOS's HQ for some event, there are 60 people working on ESO. 60 people. Total.

This is the very definition of maintenance mode. A skeleton crew will keep the lights going and will slowly finish up and release very safe and generic content they had pre-planned before. They just don't have the capacity to do anything fancy and exciting.

After looking it up, I'm somewhat saddened to learn that TES3: Morrowind was made by a crew of 37 people.
Oh well. Different times - different game; ESO is obviously more maintenance heavy.

jircris11

Woodenplank wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

First off bethesda has NOTHING to do with eso. That would be zenimax online studio.

Sorry about that. Changed it to Zenimax (Online).
That being said; Bethesda seems to have had much the same attitude when Skyrim was made. And since their both subsidiaries of Zenimax, I think some parallels can be drawn.

jircris11 wrote: »

And lastly it's not the devs who are "rushing" it's the lively shareholders. Remember devs them self want an awesome game and work longer hours then even most medical crew members because of some rich investors wants for immediate returns. And lastly bethesda and ZOS are part if zenimax who is the parent company.

Hence why I started off with the possibility of "[...] some poor, honest developers are being goaded into rushing unfinished products".
I realize I was quite bashful in the original post, and maybe I was unfair. But again; the BG group queue's blunt removal (Subject to change or not), it was a terribly unimaginative solution to a long-standing problem - Yet somehow I can't imagine the "board of shareholders" commanding that "battlegrounds be fixed ASAP, with the simplest/fastest solution". It's not like there's a significant amount of money hinging on Battleground matchmaking.

jircris11 wrote: »

Second, there is no way you can know about this "ladder" as it's not even on the pts, it may be a place holder.

ArcaneFeathers wrote: »

As for complaints about Greymoor and Blackreach it’s not even out on PTS yet so waiting to actually see content and test it is probably better than preemptive complaining.

It's in the prologue quest; read more in this thread, or alternatively see a youtube video here. It is, quite evidently, not just a place holder. It's a small quest where you follow Lyris Titanborn (with voice lines and everything) into a house, searching through it until you find a trap door into the basement; which has a "secret door behind a cabinet" leading to Blackreach.

ArcaneFeathers wrote: »

It was stated in pts patch notes that the battleground solo queue is part experiment so there could be changes in the future again. It probably has a lot to do with changes they want to make to their matchmaking system and the population of people queuing up for battlegrounds. Just sounds like an evolving situation right now. Ideally in the future there can be a solo only queue and a group only queue.

And they've received a tonne of backlash for it. And yes, it might change before release. That's good, but if they decide to change it, it's based on the (extreme) player outrage. They should never have considered it a valid solution to begin with. People complain about the occasional premade vs. randoms? Just completely wipe out the group-queue and make BGs a solo venture.
It's not a very imaginative solution. Splitting BGs into a "solo queue" and "group queue", like so many other competitive games have done with matchmaking, isn't perfect. But it's certainly a whole lot better than simply trying to cut it entirely.

Again an analogy; show up to a doctor with a mild infection in your finger, and he says "we'll amputate the hand" - you might talk him out of it, but that should never have been the go-to solution to begin with.

---

I'm not saying the developers are incompetent. I'm speaking out against the "rush content; add more stuff to crown store; more, more, more as soon as possible" mentality that seems to pervade the game.
And please, don't tell me "it's a company, they have to make money" - because plenty of developers take their time with releases, and still turn a profit. But Zenimax is steadily entering a "FIFA" or "Call of Duty" phase where they're consistently pumping out content, with decreasing quality, because they know their loyal, nostalgic fans will gobble it up.

But as I said; Skyrim is their last big nostalgia hit. There are no more familiar lands to explore when they're done. So after Dark Heart of Skyrim, their next batch of DLC will have to stand on its own - and at this rate; I'm not sure it can.

Thanks for the vid, for now it could be a place holder. As a former dev for another company we have done that a lot. As for bethesda rushing that's thanks to share holders and investors. Most don't know CRAP about making a game so they expect the impossible

Anska

So, someone wanted to build a house and while digging up the basement found tunnels instead of firm ground. So they walled it up and used the basement anyway. When the house turned a slightly shadey tavern, the new owner decided that hidden tunnels might be useful.

I don't see the problem of a basement leading to dwarven ruins, with luminescent mushrooms and I am sure there will be a more impressive quest to enter Blackreach in the new chapter proper.

The only thing which did make me pause was the artificial-sun orb, as I faintly remember, that there was something significant about it (I think there only was one in Skyrim) and it suggests that you are very far down. So, the orb really is the only thing that bothers me a bit, not the ladder or the basement or the dwarven buildings itself.

Woodenplank

I feel like people are focusing really, really hard on the Blackreach thing. That was just an example; as was the Battlegrounds queue issue. I didn't mean to say they were the only or the worst issues the game has/has had... They were just examples of policy of "make it fast; fix it fast"; quality secondary.

Anska wrote: »

So, someone wanted to build a house and while digging up the basement found tunnels instead of firm ground. So they walled it up and used the basement anyway. When the house turned a slightly shadey tavern, the new owner decided that hidden tunnels might be useful.

I don't see the problem of a basement leading to dwarven ruins, with luminescent mushrooms and I am sure there will be a more impressive quest to enter Blackreach in the new chapter proper.

The only thing which did make me pause was the artificial-sun orb, as I faintly remember, that there was something significant about it (I think there only was one in Skyrim) and it suggests that you are very far down. So, the orb really is the only thing that bothers me a bit, not the ladder or the basement or the dwarven buildings itself.

Indeed. Blackreach is supposed to be quite expansive. If we'd plobbed down into a different part of it; that'd be fine.
But it's the same Silent City, with the same orb. And there's even the Tower Mzark (where you find the Elder Scroll in Skyrim).

So... if this place has been open since the 2nd Era, why hasn't anyone found the scroll yet? And where have all the falmer run off to? (They're not in ESO). They only moved it later?

kind_hero

What, the entrance to Blackreach is down a ladder???

Are you kidding? What happened to the great lift at Alftand??? That was so epic! You could have a quest to retrieve the attunement sphere part of the prologue

Blackreach is quite deep, it is not like a normal sinkhole or a usual cave-delve! An other wasted opportunity...

I hope there is time to fix this, really this is rushed content and a spit in the face for any Skyrim fan!
ZOS became so complacent!

katorga

I think the ladder in the basement of some tavern is sort of cool.

Faulgor

Woodenplank wrote: »

But as I said; Skyrim is their last big nostalgia hit. There are no more familiar lands to explore when they're done. So after Dark Heart of Skyrim, their next batch of DLC will have to stand on its own - and at this rate; I'm not sure it can.

There are still more parts of Skyrim, Morrowind and Cyrodiil to be added. Let alone Daedric realms like the Shivering Isles and Apocrypha, which have also been featured in previous games. But I agree it will be difficult to draw crowds with "We are going to Skyrim ... again!"

SmukkeHeks

The product lifecycle is a method to remind organizations on when next product needs R&D, presentation and launch. One can assume very short lives and it seems as if it’s been decided that expansions for eso is very, very short. So short they don’t need to pay attention to former launched. Or keep on making new material as detailed as their reputation.

If one then adds the rather sensible way of moderation in the forums, and the fact that exploiters and cheaters aren’t paid attention to, it slowly reaches a shut down in the horizon.

It will be a cash cow. Because they can.

Fan base will move on to Hammerfell and the pvps will find another pvp-platform..

Anska

Woodenplank wrote: »

I feel like people are focusing really, really hard on the Blackreach thing. That was just an example; [...]

I think it was the most shocking example to most, so of course they focus on it.

That said: I actually liked the prologue quest. I assume they tried to convey a feeling of "coming home" in it, adding some familiar places to Skyrim which have been missing before - like the Ratway or the Palace of Kings or Blackreach. And I like what they did with the Ratway and the Palace - in the case of Blackreach though, I am afraid that they added the sun-orb mainly for aesthetic reasons and for making sure you got the Blackreach message. And while it does send the message, it might unfortuantely be the wrong one: That is, it makes people fear they will not get an epic experience when entering Blackreach in the chapter proper. The trouble with playing on nostalgia is, you don't only have to add familiar places, you have to entice similar emotions and the secret passage might not do the trick in regards to reaching the well hidden mystery that is central Blackreach.

So I totally agree that while it probably wouldn't look as good, another eye-catcher would be a better choice than the sun-orb. In order for you to get Blackreach vibes but not Silent City vibes.

Anotherone773

First wayshrine unlock non one will use it anyway. Just like with boat transports. Those are never used except by newbies who are in no guilds and have no wayshrines unlocked. And the striders in morrowind. A staple feature of the TES 3 game is a yard ornament here.

Why waste a bunch of resources on an elaborate entrance no one is going to use after the first use?

Brandathorbel

Zos cut their staff, probably moved to new project and this is what you get. It happens to most MMOs.

My issue comes with their pricing model. Dragonhold and elswyer - while the store and artistic design were good, the amount of content was by far the worst we have seen and the price did not reflect that. It looks like this year will be the same. Elswyer and Greymoor are grossly overpriced.

Look at what you get from FF14 and WoW for the same prices. about 3 to 4 times the content.

I knew this was going to happen when they announced the year long content. it allows them to cut developer time and costs by reusing art, textures etc.

it seems they are fine losing old players as long as there is a stream of new players and there is enough content for new players for the next couple years.

TheBonesXXX

I'd prefer they redo Cyrodiil, not new zones.

They still haven't fixed day one issues.

dcam86b14_ESO

I found nothing wrong with the prologue quest, not like anyone is going to remember it and itll change next year. Why waste time on a throw away.

I only remember the first prologue from cold harbor. The others not so much.

kind_hero

Anotherone773 wrote: »

First wayshrine unlock non one will use it anyway. Just like with boat transports. Those are never used except by newbies who are in no guilds and have no wayshrines unlocked. And the striders in morrowind. A staple feature of the TES 3 game is a yard ornament here.

Why waste a bunch of resources on an elaborate entrance no one is going to use after the first use?

Whey wouldn't waste resources if they would do something interesting with the elevators to Blackreach. True, once you unlock the wayshrine, that access way will be forgotten, but they could make the access point a delve (like it is in Skyrim) which is tied to daily quests, or a buff like if you activate certain crystal in the delve you get a buff for collecting resources in Blackreach. There is a ton of stuff that could have been done.

ZOS became complacent, because they know they are riding this flashy horse called TES universe, and they have no competition since only they are making TES games. Imagine what would happen if Larian or CD Project Red would do games based in the TES universe ( = if the the studio would have competition). They wouldn't settle for ladders going to Blackreach or repainting the same Summerset indrik from 2 years ago each time they repeat an event.

Hotdog_23

Zero game developing experience at all here so take what I say as with a grain of salt. 60 people sounds like a lot to me. We are talking about probably a 10-15 million budget at least with that many people. Once you factor in salary benefits and operational cost such as infrastructure and such all the travel and events, they do each year. Plus, I would say that some people float in and out as needed for specific purposes like most big companies do with varies teams. ESO is established so it does not need a large team to maintain it.

Personally, I like the new content every quarter. I am also confident that as long as it keeps making money for ZOS they will continue to support it. As far as entrance to Blackreach since I am on console, I have no personally experience with it but a ladder in a building does sound a little underwhelming, but did they not hint that the cave system was under most of Skyrim. With it supposed to be secret I suppose it had to be somewhere.

Woodenplank

Should never have mentioned the damn ladder, now that's all this thread is about

I was trying to make a point about the speed with which ZOS puts out content, and the declining quality this causes.
Not simply/always declining quality though, but also in quantity.

Think of the DLC we got in 2015 and 2016 for instance. Imperial City, Orsinium, and Thieves Guild. I'll list some content here:
Imperial City

• New, extensive PVP/PVE zone (it might not be super popular; but it is extensive!) with a quest line.
• 10 new Telvar-purchased sets
• 3 new Crafted sets
• 6 new dungeon sets, and two monster sets
• Two new dungeons that, at the time, had unprecedented ingenuity in design and difficulty
• One new motif style (Xivkyn), three morphs and one skin (Soulshriven)

Thieves Guild

• New guild questline with a main story and daily quests, as well as a Thieves collection to complete
• A new overland zone with several dailies and encounters
• Two overland item sets
• Three crafted sets
• Four trial sets
• A new trial with unprecedented difficulty and ingenuity in design (I'm not just copy-pasting; I really mean it. Maw of Lorkhaj has a lot of fun, unique encounters)
• Two new motif styles (Outlaw/Thieves) and two new costumes

And now compare that to our latest DLC; (which btw costs almost as much)
Dragonhold

• One new overland zone with new quests and dungeons... and a copy-paste of the Dragon Hunt mechanic from Northern Elsweyr
• Three overland sets
• Three crafted sets
• One new main storyline that a high-level player can breeze through in one or two hours (speaking from experience)
• Three new motif styles

And it's not that I didn't like the Dragonhold Quest line... But you're just not getting enough bang for your buck.
And at this rate; I think Greymoor will be much the same.

P.S.
I also find it funny that every new DLC stars "Improvements to base-game performance" or "a large number of base-game balance changes" as new exciting DLC stuff.

Yamenstein

Amber322 wrote: »

My bet is that ESO won't be putting out anymore [decent] content in 2-3 years and the game will slowly die.
Sad, but I really do feel like they're running out of material and taking the easy/cheap/quick option too often these days.

I hope the ladder thing is just a shortcut for afterwards, and we find the place in a much more adventurous way.

I disagree.

ESO had numerous glitches and issues when it first released.

But it had great stories/quests and it has a skill system that is awesome as well. You can be a lot of stuff and do it effectively.

I reckon they'll be fine for a long time. The only issue is that they don't Branch out. But at the current time repetition hasn't been an issue.