Elitism on ESO and Matchmaking

kongkim

MachoKen wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Never played DPS in this game but i'm in a guild that has some insane high values for DD's as a requirement to join their raids, not only that but to join their core group you need a *** ton of pve achievements plus be +700CP...i mean..whats the point of this hardcore Elitism? The casual guy that plays to have a good time and make some pals ingame doesnt have time for this kind of heavy requirements, you even need to prove it by sending the guild master screenshots with your achievements. Did they forgot that this is all about having a good time and shake their heads out of the irl day to day stress? I mean, you have problems to solve irl and you have to put yourself up to this *** in a videogame? (left that guild after reading the requirements on discord btw, and they called themselves a "Social and Casual" guild. True story this one loool

Im some were in between you there.

There need to be content for everyone, also the players with a lot of time and skills etc.
So you can not expect to be able to all content in the game unless you put in the time.

But the elitism in ESO is still way to much. And the DPS "Standards" are just stupid and ruins the game.

Achievements and level requirements i understand, its something anyone can get with time, and even if they don't run meta builds. So its a lot more in the spirit of the game and what the DEV's want, as play as you want.

oddbasket

In my experience, the bar for normal trials is not very high if you're looking for a group in Craglorn. Groups don't usually require high CP, because with 12 players, they can make it up here and there. The issue is something a matchmaker may not help with since getting enough tank and sometimes healer players to get the group going takes a while, also there may not be a group going for a specific trial that you want unless you start one yourself, since players are after specific gear. Other than vet craglorn trials, you'll have better luck joining a guild.

Non dlc vet dungeons don't take too much time and can easily be completed with lower CP players except for a few version 2 ones. DLC vet dungeons however require at least a decent tank that can really soak up damage and players that know how to handle mechanics and avoid damage well, especially the newer ones.

Having said that about dungeons, you may think some players are not giving you a fair chance but experience is something you need to learn for yourself, and it comes with having done the easier dungeons or on normal versions until you know how to play your role well. I have seen max CP players that are simply not good on DLC dungeons, while on the other hand low CP players are not all bad, some can play very well.

300 CP is when access to vet dlc dungeons is unlocked, and I've completed most of the vet DLC dungeons at 300+ CP, including Depths of Malatar in a pug team not at max CP with 2 players not having done it on vet and another having not done it on normal even, but all of them able to adapt to mechanics through experience. This is my anecdote where experience trumps CP, as the 300 CP account is my alt, and I know how to play my class and build for my role.

For newer players, I don't understand the need to farm gear on content you can't handle. For example, if you can't do the vet dlc dungeon, farm the normal version, get the blue ones first and get your character set up to tackle the harder content and then you will have a real shot at completing them. Or, what I did on my alt account was craft my gear (or get someone to craft) and use a slightly different setup than my planned final build to get the gear I want and then switch to that build. I tend to level and farm with hybrid builds, ie. half dps and half healer/tank sets until I get the gear I want. Once you have your first character properly set up and others see you're capable of handling your role, then it will get easier and you can farm gear for your other characters as well.

idk

First off that CP capped player that raged on you and quit is not a very good player. I do not mean not a great player but simply not good at all.

A player being CP capped says nothing about their experience other than they have been playing the game for a bit. Myself and others I know with alt accounts have out dpsed entire CP capped groups when our alt account was very low CP and we were the healer doing actual healing.

I would suggest finding a nice and active social guild to run with. You will find the experience much better than total random groups pretty much any day of the week. Both quality of person and player will be much improved.

roflcopter

jcm2606 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Getting rid of LA weaving and animation cancelling would be a step in the right direction.

Do that, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, the moment it's removed. Animation cancelling is necessary for a consistently responsive experience, as ESO uses an active approach to combat. Need to be able to dodge/block/bash attacks ASAP, not a second later.

Want an example of what it'd be like without animation cancelling? Look at old Path of Exile melee.

Before they added animation cancelling, the melee meta was to stack attack speed, as you needed it to get through animations quickly enough to react to telegraphs, else you'd be stuck in the middle of an animation and can't move out of the way or use a movement skill to dodge the attack.

This caused any melee playstyles that didn't revolve around attack speed to become unplayable, and caused the cost of gearing a melee character to skyrocket, since attack speed was, funnily enough, also a strong stat to stack when it comes to damage.

A few leagues back, they added animation cancelling that allowed certain movement or defensive actions to cancel other actions, which massively helped the viability of melee playstyles. Suddenly the cost of gearing a melee character dropped, and a ton of other melee attacks became viable, which not only helped in making melee more playable as a whole, but also more diverse in builds.

Remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, because you'd suddenly be unable to block, dodge or interrupt skills you used to be able to. We don't have an attack speed stat, so they only alternative to adding it back in would be either nerfing all content in the game, or forcing players to slow down, which I'm sure would go over just fine with the community.

I wouldn't beg for it back. It's a trash system and creates the level of toxicity that this thread is showing the way it currently is. If anything they need to consider adding a setting where users can toggle on and off animations. That way it's an equal playing field for all. People with disabilities should have an equal opportunity to enjoy all hard / normal content.

Most of the content in the game doesn't even require even remotely close to the level of DPS that some trial guilds require.

ZOS created this trash pile we all swim in. It's their mess to clean it up.

kongkim

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number, and therefor slow the group with something that looks like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid of the DPS maniac there is.

You can do normal content in any gear and without dps requirements.

True. The problem also mostly starts after that.
Vet dungeons and trials.

FierceSam

MachoKen wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Never played DPS in this game but i'm in a guild that has some insane high values for DD's as a requirement to join their raids, not only that but to join their core group you need a *** ton of pve achievements plus be +700CP...i mean..whats the point of this hardcore Elitism? The casual guy that plays to have a good time and make some pals ingame doesnt have time for this kind of heavy requirements, you even need to prove it by sending the guild master screenshots with your achievements. Did they forgot that this is all about having a good time and shake their heads out of the irl day to day stress? I mean, you have problems to solve irl and you have to put yourself up to this *** in a videogame? (left that guild after reading the requirements on discord btw, and they called themselves a "Social and Casual" guild. True story this one loool

I’m in the same guild. But I look at these ‘requirements’ as a challenge. And they’re not unrealistic for a joining a vet progression group with 11 other people all working (hard) towards a goal. What they say to me is not so much ‘you must have done these’ as ‘you have clearly demonstrated an ability to do basic vet dungeons, understand key group mechanics, work as part of a team and to a goal’. Their requirements for doing normal trials are significantly less arduous.

Some of the vet requirements are relatively easy, but some will take a time and skill commitment and it’s this as much as anything else that’s being tested. It’s a bit like me saying ‘if you want to come scuba diving with me, you need to have done some dives, got certified and done a basic shake down dive with me or someone I trust because when we’re 40m underwater I need to know you’re going to be OK or we could both end up dead’. It might sound a bit brutal, but it reflects the activity in question. And I have had to tell really keen people that they’re not ready for it.

And that’s not for everyone.

Salvas_Aren

MachoKen wrote: »

So let's talk about elitism.

So i'm basically a new player that reached endgame a week ago, just started to do some normal mode trials, some vet dungeons, started gearing up my characters and all that endgame jazz that any other MMO has, and what i've realized when reaching the endgame content is that the community in general (not all) are pretty toxic towards new players and not generous enough to team up with us and we end up getting delayed regarding endgame progression. I mean, i can understand that we all want to rush things, have a consistent and reliable group to finish of
+3 nCR for example or any vet dungeon fast without any one dying once, but the reality is that everyone has to start from somewhere and make mistakes along the way...thats called learning. Being inside a dungeon or a trial with a 810 CP guy that probably has 6000h ingame, a *** ton of experience and literally being disrespected by those veteran players makes me give up the game and play something else cause at the end of the day if you end up matchmaking with a vet ESO player and that same player *** on you in chat and then rage quits the party leaving you and your group with one less member and unable to finish of the dungeon, which is pretty common btw, you're better off logging out, unistalling the game and invest your time in money on something better. These kind of elitist players totally forget that in the beggining they were trash at the game and maybe worst than some of us, that they too were learning like everyone else. This kind of behaviour needs to have consequences and ZoS doesn't do anything regarding this issue.

Another thing that i'd like to discuss are Trials and the time you spend looking for a group. By now i've did a handful of normal Trials like nCR or nAS to get some gear and i can't understand why the hell there isn't matchmaking to do them like there is in veteran Dungeons?? It doesnt make sense to me that i have to wait sometimes hours on an instance spamming in chat to get a group for a Trial, most of us work and don't have time for this nonsense. And what makes me confused is that most of these normal Trials are way easier and don't impose a real challenge like a veteran DLC dungeons does and there is matchmaking for that. FF14 as matchmaking for normal Trials and it works pretty nicelly btw. This game as like what? 6years? These issues persist and they were never addressed, they prefer to release more content than getting a solution for these problems, i feel most times that ZoS doesnt care one bit about it's community and i'm honestly thinking about leaving the game for good, it just doesn't feel worth it.

I would like to hear the community opinion regarding these points. Thank you.

So, a endgame player who likes the penalty more than you should be banned ontop of it?

pod88kk

In b4 lock

jcm2606

roflcopter wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Getting rid of LA weaving and animation cancelling would be a step in the right direction.

Do that, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, the moment it's removed. Animation cancelling is necessary for a consistently responsive experience, as ESO uses an active approach to combat. Need to be able to dodge/block/bash attacks ASAP, not a second later.

Want an example of what it'd be like without animation cancelling? Look at old Path of Exile melee.

Before they added animation cancelling, the melee meta was to stack attack speed, as you needed it to get through animations quickly enough to react to telegraphs, else you'd be stuck in the middle of an animation and can't move out of the way or use a movement skill to dodge the attack.

This caused any melee playstyles that didn't revolve around attack speed to become unplayable, and caused the cost of gearing a melee character to skyrocket, since attack speed was, funnily enough, also a strong stat to stack when it comes to damage.

A few leagues back, they added animation cancelling that allowed certain movement or defensive actions to cancel other actions, which massively helped the viability of melee playstyles. Suddenly the cost of gearing a melee character dropped, and a ton of other melee attacks became viable, which not only helped in making melee more playable as a whole, but also more diverse in builds.

Remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, because you'd suddenly be unable to block, dodge or interrupt skills you used to be able to. We don't have an attack speed stat, so they only alternative to adding it back in would be either nerfing all content in the game, or forcing players to slow down, which I'm sure would go over just fine with the community.

I wouldn't beg for it back. It's a trash system and creates the level of toxicity that this thread is showing the way it currently is. If anything they need to consider adding a setting where users can toggle on and off animations. That way it's an equal playing field for all. People with disabilities should have an equal opportunity to enjoy all hard / normal content.

Most of the content in the game doesn't even require even remotely close to the level of DPS that some trial guilds require.

ZOS created this trash pile we all swim in. It's their mess to clean it up.

You say that now, go do some vet dungeons while waiting for every animation to end before performing any action, and you'll probably say otherwise. That a one-shot AoE? That a guaranteed ***-you stun? Wait until your character returns to the idle pose before you dodge or block that. That's what fights would be like without animation cancelling.

roflcopter

jcm2606 wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Getting rid of LA weaving and animation cancelling would be a step in the right direction.

Do that, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, the moment it's removed. Animation cancelling is necessary for a consistently responsive experience, as ESO uses an active approach to combat. Need to be able to dodge/block/bash attacks ASAP, not a second later.

Want an example of what it'd be like without animation cancelling? Look at old Path of Exile melee.

Before they added animation cancelling, the melee meta was to stack attack speed, as you needed it to get through animations quickly enough to react to telegraphs, else you'd be stuck in the middle of an animation and can't move out of the way or use a movement skill to dodge the attack.

This caused any melee playstyles that didn't revolve around attack speed to become unplayable, and caused the cost of gearing a melee character to skyrocket, since attack speed was, funnily enough, also a strong stat to stack when it comes to damage.

A few leagues back, they added animation cancelling that allowed certain movement or defensive actions to cancel other actions, which massively helped the viability of melee playstyles. Suddenly the cost of gearing a melee character dropped, and a ton of other melee attacks became viable, which not only helped in making melee more playable as a whole, but also more diverse in builds.

Remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, because you'd suddenly be unable to block, dodge or interrupt skills you used to be able to. We don't have an attack speed stat, so they only alternative to adding it back in would be either nerfing all content in the game, or forcing players to slow down, which I'm sure would go over just fine with the community.

I wouldn't beg for it back. It's a trash system and creates the level of toxicity that this thread is showing the way it currently is. If anything they need to consider adding a setting where users can toggle on and off animations. That way it's an equal playing field for all. People with disabilities should have an equal opportunity to enjoy all hard / normal content.

Most of the content in the game doesn't even require even remotely close to the level of DPS that some trial guilds require.

ZOS created this trash pile we all swim in. It's their mess to clean it up.

You say that now, go do some vet dungeons while waiting for every animation to end before performing any action, and you'll probably say otherwise. That a one-shot AoE? That a guaranteed ***-you stun? Wait until your character returns to the idle pose before you dodge or block that. That's what fights would be like without animation cancelling.

K let's get a toggle animations in settings. Problem solved.

The way it's currently implemented is trash and isolates some players from being able to compete. It's done nothing but create a build up of toxicity and animosity for PVE content that I left behind after getting my old Trials guild through VMOL.

You can have your AC the way it is. I think its trash and a horrible look for the game, you can tell just by going through these forums and spending a bit of time in endgame.

Lucious90

If you dont like the Group Finder get a group of people to play with

Dont like you're guild find another one, dont any of them? Make your own.


You can either *** about how things currently are or make a change. Now Ive done enough end game content in MMOs to realize that there needs to be some benchmarks set such as DPS numbers, gear minimums etc, to allow a raid to run smoothly. If that seems too toxic to you, keep searching for a guild or a group of guys more relaxed.

Seraphayel

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Blame ZOS not players. There should be at least recommended DPS number near every dungeon icon and on loading screen to that dungeon. This will greatly reduce toxicity.

And how should console players deal with this?

Salvas_Aren

Seraphayel wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Blame ZOS not players. There should be at least recommended DPS number near every dungeon icon and on loading screen to that dungeon. This will greatly reduce toxicity.

And how should console players deal with this?

Trial dummy?

ZonasArch

MachoKen wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

I'll be blunt: join a guild. There are many great guilds out there, and you can join 5. You'll never have to deal with randoms.

I'm part of 4 guilds, they have schedules that i cant attend and most times when i spam in chat that i need a group out of 300 people just 1 gives an answer. Guilds are overrated in this game, totally overrated.

You probably joined 4 really bad guilds, and clearly the wrong ones for you since their schedule is bad for you. Look for others. Simple

Veinblood1965

I agree in part with the OP, it's a pain doing trials, I do have the time sometimes but it takes so darn long to get enough people together. Even when part of a few good guilds. It's either join an "elite" raiding guild which is stressful if you are a casual player or wait hours to play content. Don't mind waiting a bit but hours? I've only played a few trials just due to the waiting is darn boring.

There should be a queue option although the backside of that is having a ton of peeps who don't know the content although that still beats hours of waiting.

RedTalon

PVP by default is toxic.

This will never change, just like war.

Seraphayel

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Blame ZOS not players. There should be at least recommended DPS number near every dungeon icon and on loading screen to that dungeon. This will greatly reduce toxicity.

And how should console players deal with this?

Trial dummy?

With how you approach it and use it etc? No way. On PC maybe, on console it’s a major no. The UI options for consoles are so limited that anything requiring in depth information is just a major no. You just can’t get it.

That’s why any DPS recommendation in game makes no sense as long as the console UI isn’t vastly improved.

Alomar

This game's meant for casuals and barely has a hardcore population left, pve or pvp, it's actually a pretty easy game lol.

"It's like field stripping a weapon, repetition repetition" - Jake Sully

roflcopter

Seraphayel wrote: »

Salvas_Aren wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Blame ZOS not players. There should be at least recommended DPS number near every dungeon icon and on loading screen to that dungeon. This will greatly reduce toxicity.

And how should console players deal with this?

Trial dummy?

With how you approach it and use it etc? No way. On PC maybe, on console it’s a major no. The UI options for consoles are so limited that anything requiring in depth information is just a major no. You just can’t get it.

That’s why any DPS recommendation in game makes no sense as long as the console UI isn’t vastly improved.

Group parse (with puncture or no puncture?), solo parse (dps food or trial food)(trap or ror), 3m 6m which dummy? Who sets the DPS requirement? IF it's the players it's just more of the same. If it's ZOS, it will just prove how out of touch they are with the game.

Console or PC wont change anything just more of the same.

Sidra

Hello, I think I recognize you from one of my guilds.
Even as an almost cp810 player, I encounter those elitists on a daily basis. People who kick me from a dungeon for healing with a NB as soon as the loading screen ends, tanks writing "I will leave if the dps isn't spot on" and leaves if the first mob pack dies in more than 5 seconds, tanks (I see a pattern here but whatever) just feeding to the bosses or becoming afk because "trash dps"... you name it.
I play the game since 2015 and just started to do endgame content and it requires a lot of time and effort. To farm trial gear from normals, doing multiple of them 50+ times for the right gear and traits, farming from dungeons, getting enough money to buy... practicing with your skills on a dummy, uptime on expensive potions and food... etc. So people who get into veteran content are people who spend a lot of time and effort into this game.
Naturally people who went through this effort don't want to have someone without optimal gear and experience in their group as even one person's shortcoming can stall the progression of the content.
However, after my return to the game a couple months ago, I started to optimize my gear and run endgame content for the first time in 5 years and what helped me in the end was to find the right guilds. I stayed in many different guilds until I found one with people who are helpful and I clicked with. They were the biggest help in my progression in endgame content. I let them know I didn't know the mechanics, how x works, and they always took the time to explain. Especially for you I recommend you find a more "mature" guild with +30 year old players who share the limited time frame as you and you can get along with better. What makes the group content playable or enjoyable is the group, after all.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Cirantille wrote: »

"PvP is toxic"

!?

Actually, PvP is quite toxic and I speak from personal experience. If I'm talking in Cyro zone and anything goes wrong, even if it had nothing to do with my group, it's my fault. The guild leads t-bag me and leave me dead. (I don't mind t-bags from enemies, that's a compliment.) Ever wonder why some of the top players in all factions are offline permenantly? Otherwise they couldn't play from all the hate tells.

Yes, there are a lot of nice people in PvP. There's also a lot of toxicity.

iris56

I don't think you really understand what end game in eso means yet. It doesnt sound like you really have the experiance for it yet. I'm guessing you just hit CP 160 or maybe CP 300 and you consider that end game? Truly not even close. CP really isn't a good measure of skills and ability to do content, as an experianced player on an alt account may be fine, but a true new player won't be. Plus it is unfortunately really hard for newer players to tell what content is too hard for them until they get in see for themselves.

Honestly as a new CP 160, any vet content you pug or even normal trials will be a complete carry. At CP 300 you unlock the vet dlcs... which will end up being a carry with most pugs. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you're ready for it and the other people in the group don't owe you a carry through it.

The bigger problem is that there isn't a good way to learn content other than finding a group of friends or getting carried in pugs until you figure it out.

That is the main reason everyone suggests joining a guild. It will be much more enjoyable to learn with others of a similar level OR with friendly guildies who like teaching.

For what its worth here is what I would focus on at various cp levels.

Under CP160 - new beginner, shouldn't be in vet content or even normal trials yet. You can, but unless you have a group of friends who want you there, why cheat everyone out of usable drops? It will be a carry. The content will still be there later. Focus on normal dungeons, overland content and enjoying the game. Join guilds, make some friends, just have fun.

CP160 to CP300 - try the non dlc vet dungeons, normal trials and focus on finding friends of similar abilities. Most pugs will still be carrying you at this level, but you should be starting to contribute more. Learn to parse and theorycraft. Ask for help in your guilds, lots of people will help you get a better set up and with parsing. Focus on getting better at your role. Maybe make an alt that does a different role.

CP 300 - the rest of the vet dlcs unlock at 300. I wouldn't pug them at this stage though, learn the mechanics with friends first, that will be willing to go slow and figure things out. Try vMA. Prepare to be humbled by it. If you haven't already, start trying to find a progression guild that works for you.

CP600- this is around the point where additional CP stops making as much of a difference. At this point its honestly not about CP its about whether you're executing your role, and believe me, people can tell if you're not. If you've been asking for help, parsing and learning you'll be ready for almost anything by this point. At the very least you'll know what you want to work on.

CP810 - Really no different than 600CP. 810CP doesn't mean you're good at anything, it just means you've played enough to get here. Honestly the most exciting part is you'll only have to assign cp after major patches or if you change your build.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

jcm2606 wrote: »

You say that now, go do some vet dungeons while waiting for every animation to end before performing any action, and you'll probably say otherwise. That a one-shot AoE? That a guaranteed ***-you stun? Wait until your character returns to the idle pose before you dodge or block that. That's what fights would be like without animation cancelling.

The issue is not with cancelling as such. Yes, being able to block or dodge or throw an emergency heal at a moment's notice is very useful. It's good design for the kind of combat this game implements, and taking that away would probably make fights unbearable. However, if I perform an action, and then decide to take another action before the first one is finished, why does the first one still have an effect? Who finishes that spell for me while I block? How does my light attack have any effect when I stopped the sword swing to cast a spell instead? If an action is cancelled, it should not have any effect. The dps race in this game has become very focused on cheating the interface to do insane damage, instead of learning to work within the intended constraints of the game and clearing the dungeons by teamwork and some patience.

The difficult content is now scaled to a level which satisfies nobody. Those who have no time, desire or motor skills to get the LA weaving and animation cancelling right have a hard time clearing it, while those who have their weaving and cancelling rotations down are doing stupid amounts of damage, bypassing most of the mechanics in boss fights and becoming bored.

This is also why overland and quest content is so ridiculously easy for experienced players. Even with only a partial and possibly intuitive understanding of how to mash the buttons in a more efficent and originally unintended manner, you are exceeding the damage from an inexperienced player with such a great margin that nothing is a challenge any longer.

I'm not saying the solution is to get rid of animation cancelling, but it's a strawman argument to suggest that doing so would mean not being able to block until we finished casting a spell. It's just that the block would cancel the spell effect, or diminish it somehow. The resource cost for a cancelled spell could be spent, partially spent, or returned in full, that's a design issue as well.

Spells can be interrupted, so the messaging mechanism is there for not actually firing them even after their animation has started.

Sergykid

i've been trash too at first just as anyone else. But now as i peck at endgame, by doing HM dlc dungeons or vet trials, i can tell you it's normal to have some expectations.

you can't expect someone to come in a vet dlc without giving its interest for the mechanics. I always tell them but some people tape their screen on the chat area, especially the RUS ones. I have no problem with them but they never communicate with someone who's not RUS.

some people can't simply understand mechanics. You tell them the mechanics, they say "ok", but then fail it again, and again and again. Another thing is when they come with so low dps that they force the tank or healer, which make the run unpleasant for the majority, case in which i understand the kick. In endgame there's not much space for fashion roleplay.

idk

roflcopter wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Getting rid of LA weaving and animation cancelling would be a step in the right direction.

Do that, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, the moment it's removed. Animation cancelling is necessary for a consistently responsive experience, as ESO uses an active approach to combat. Need to be able to dodge/block/bash attacks ASAP, not a second later.

Want an example of what it'd be like without animation cancelling? Look at old Path of Exile melee.

Before they added animation cancelling, the melee meta was to stack attack speed, as you needed it to get through animations quickly enough to react to telegraphs, else you'd be stuck in the middle of an animation and can't move out of the way or use a movement skill to dodge the attack.

This caused any melee playstyles that didn't revolve around attack speed to become unplayable, and caused the cost of gearing a melee character to skyrocket, since attack speed was, funnily enough, also a strong stat to stack when it comes to damage.

A few leagues back, they added animation cancelling that allowed certain movement or defensive actions to cancel other actions, which massively helped the viability of melee playstyles. Suddenly the cost of gearing a melee character dropped, and a ton of other melee attacks became viable, which not only helped in making melee more playable as a whole, but also more diverse in builds.

Remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, because you'd suddenly be unable to block, dodge or interrupt skills you used to be able to. We don't have an attack speed stat, so they only alternative to adding it back in would be either nerfing all content in the game, or forcing players to slow down, which I'm sure would go over just fine with the community.

I wouldn't beg for it back. It's a trash system and creates the level of toxicity that this thread is showing the way it currently is. If anything they need to consider adding a setting where users can toggle on and off animations. That way it's an equal playing field for all. People with disabilities should have an equal opportunity to enjoy all hard / normal content.

Most of the content in the game doesn't even require even remotely close to the level of DPS that some trial guilds require.

ZOS created this trash pile we all swim in. It's their mess to clean it up.

You say that now, go do some vet dungeons while waiting for every animation to end before performing any action, and you'll probably say otherwise. That a one-shot AoE? That a guaranteed ***-you stun? Wait until your character returns to the idle pose before you dodge or block that. That's what fights would be like without animation cancelling.

K let's get a toggle animations in settings. Problem solved.

The way it's currently implemented is trash and isolates some players from being able to compete. It's done nothing but create a build up of toxicity and animosity for PVE content that I left behind after getting my old Trials guild through VMOL.

You can have your AC the way it is. I think its trash and a horrible look for the game, you can tell just by going through these forums and spending a bit of time in endgame.

Not exactly trash but you are permitted to have whatever opinion you desire.

As far as isolating some players form competing, player skill always makes a difference and isolates players with less skill from the more challenging content. Especially when one considers being able to handle not only their build and role but fight mechanics as well. This is just slightly amplified in ESO but exists even simplistic game such as WoW and FF.

SeaUnicorn

First and foremost CP700 ish + is endgame, prior to that lack of CP makes your survivability and damage inferior with all else equal. So if you just hit CP160 or CP300 you are not at endgame yet. And you yourself will see it once you are closer to max CP. As someone else said don't blame players, blame game design.

Although it's great to strive to reach endgame faster and progress through the trials you have to understand that players you accuse of being elitist experienced countless times again and again how a single player who doesn't have experience or is not fully leveled yet can weigh down the group. It can be difference between clearing and spending 6 hours in the trial banging your head against the wall. It is very noticeable. Again don't blame players, blame game design.

Finally besides just having gear and CP player also needs to practice their rotation (absolute must for dps and even healers) which is basically developing muscle memory to be able to maximize your dps with current game design (aka obscure specifics of each skill and how it works together with other mechanics, such and light attacks, bash, block, barswap. Tbose specifics are not explained ANYWHERE in the game and are just side effects of how game was developed and agreed to be a "feature").
For a tank instead of rotation you have to basically memorize every mechanic of every trial/vet dungeon to be able to proactively manage positioning, use of block and other skills.
For a healer in addition to your rotation (layering hots, keeping up buffs debuffs and providing resources) you also need significant number of support sets ready for different situations. Don't expect ppl to accept you to the group when all you have is sanctuary. You need at the very minimum zen, mk, worm cult, hollowfang, hircine, olo, torug, ebon, symphony, sentinel, troll king

All of the above requires countless hours upon hours of practice and farm, and it is true prep for endgame. And this is what results in new players not to be easily accepted to the groups. So start working on your rotation first, prove by practicing on the dummy thay your DPS levels are ready or you are able to maintain buffs-debuffs (zen/mk, minor beserk and etc). Or by running vet HM dungeons thay your tanking skill is reliable. Then gradually move to 12man content. Instead of coming unprepared, weighing your group down, wasting time of 11 other people and blaming them that they are toxic when they don't want to group with you anymore.

I guarantee you, if you post 80k parse on Iron Dummy in your 4 guilds - they will start grouping with you much more willingly.

Your options are:
- find group of new players to progress together and don't expect experienced players to spend their time while you learn, unless they specify it's a training run.
- find gouilds that specify that they are aimed at training new players. There's plenty of them too, for example class rep Nefas literally does in on weekly basis during his stream.

And please stop calling people toxic for not wanting to waste their time, they don't owe anything to you.

bearbelly

Raisin wrote: »

Nothing as entertaining where it turns out the person complaining about toxicity (which is a legit issue) turns out to be the most toxic person in the thread. GG

You could determine that just by looking at his username.

edit for fat-fingered typo

Galwylin

jcm2606 wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

The Elitism in ESO is REALLY REALLY bad.
And most of it come from the unrealistic DPS requirements some higher levels set as a "Standard"

In many others game you can do the game contest if you have the gear for it.
In ESO some people have an ide and others are not welcome if they don't do a specific DPS number and therefor slow the group with something that look like 5-10 min. and say they don't have the time and its waste of their time.

Its the thing that ruins the game the most out of all things.

Personal i would rather have x2 the lag and ping then now if they got rid og the DPS maniac there is.

Getting rid of LA weaving and animation cancelling would be a step in the right direction.

Do that, and I can guarantee you'd be begging for it back, the moment it's removed. Animation cancelling is necessary for a consistently responsive experience, as ESO uses an active approach to combat. Need to be able to dodge/block/bash attacks ASAP, not a second later.

Not to go too off topic but to me this points to bad game design. You simply don't put in animations for them to never be seen. As to remove it or not, that's a whatever from since the devs have chosen to ignore their own design and make the game seem to function as it is necessary to cancel animations. Completely idiotic in my opinion. For one, why work for no benefit for your players. Those animation design hours could have went elsewhere. Combat could have been some wooden dolls who suddenly have lots of sparkles around them which kills monster. The worst though is if you're that sloppy at design then its no wonder players have wasted untold hours trying to use a feature like group finder. You're a sloppy game designer and the top man didn't even care enough to require you to straighten your skills up. One of my pet peeves is quest NPC have those deadpan faces that have such emotion lines at times while all I see is this sock puppet mouthing words they don't apparently have any relationship to.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Truly I'm not in this case. But for god's sake set some standards and meet them. That group finder has had issues since Morrowind. We've had two chapters since and almost ready for a third and you're still having issues with it. Maybe if you had fixed animation cancelling you would have developed the skills to find and fix problems. After all these years my horse decided he wanted to pay attention to his stamina during sprint. I'm positive that was relabeled a feature all that time so you're removing features now? That's sarcasm.

I don't want to be taken wrong. The developers have a lot more skills that I will ever have. And the game's ratio of good is better than its bad (it still bores me within a month each time I return though). I really dislike the idea of asking players to spend full price for you game (like some of us did for the base) as well as everything since plus being hit by a salesman notification every time you log in or finish all the skyshards in an area when you've done your job poorly and knew it was poorly designed for years. Its simply not too much to ask for game developers (from all studios) to at the very least reach your own standards you've set for your players. I was sort of pissed off at the announcement when the guy asked if they were every going to fix the running on top of your horse bug and they ask the audience like bugs are a joke. There's no telling what that bug is related to and what else its related to in the game. That could be causing players an enjoyable experience in other areas. And because its all just a joke, you probably haven't bothered to even look into it. They probably have but the impression was 'bugs are funny lul'. I hate that kind of attitude when you're asking for money from players each and every day sometimes every few hours.

Bit of a rant and I'm truly not trying to be an ass. But they did receive money. I'm not sure where the miscommunication is that they shouldn't do their job. This is probably one of my buttons being pushed. Or I'm bored waiting for the game to start. Thin line between love and hate and all that.

kongkim

slofwnd wrote: »

First and foremost CP700 ish + is endgame, prior to that lack of CP makes your survivability and damage inferior with all else equal. So if you just hit CP160 or CP300 you are not at endgame yet. And you yourself will see it once you are closer to max CP. As someone else said don't blame players, blame game design.

Although it's great to strive to reach endgame faster and progress through the trials you have to understand that players you accuse of being elitist experienced countless times again and again how a single player who doesn't have experience or is not fully leveled yet can weigh down the group. It can be difference between clearing and spending 6 hours in the trial banging your head against the wall. It is very noticeable. Again don't blame players, blame game design.

Finally besides just having gear and CP player also needs to practice their rotation (absolute must for dps and even healers) which is basically developing muscle memory to be able to maximize your dps with current game design (aka obscure specifics of each skill and how it works together with other mechanics, such and light attacks, bash, block, barswap. Tbose specifics are not explained ANYWHERE in the game and are just side effects of how game was developed and agreed to be a "feature"). For a tank instead of rotation you have to basically memorize every mechanic of every trial/vet dungeon to be able to proactively manage positioning, use of block and other skills.

All of the above requires countless hours upon hours of practice and it is true prep for endgame. And this is what results in new players not to be easily accepted to the groups. So start working on your rotation first, prove by practicing on the dummy thay your DPS levels are ready or you are able to maintain buffs-debuffs (zen/mk, minor beserk and etc). Or by running vet HM dungeons thay your tanking skill is reliable. Then gradually move to 12man content. Instead of coming unprepared, weighing your group down, wasting time of 11 other people and blaming them that they are toxic when they don't want to group with you anymore.

I guarantee you, if you post 80k parse on Iron Dummy in your 4 guilds - they will start grouping with you much more willingly.

Your options are:
- find group of new players to progress together and don't expect experienced players to spend their time while you learn, unless they specify it's a training run.
- find gouilds that specify that they are aimed at training new players. There's plenty of them too, for example class rep Nefas literally does in on weekly basis during his stream.

And please stop calling people toxic for not wanting to waste their time, they don't owe anything to you.

THIS.. this is the reason Elitism is so bad in this game.
Things like this is what ruins it for a lot of people.

Nanfoodle

I have felt this way many times as well as a new player. Been here 7 months. I got booted from a team in a normal random dungeon because I only had 360CP. We had not pulled a single mob, they had no idea that I have been playing support rolls in MMOs for over 20 years. We zoned in, saw my 360CP and said, you cant heal and I was booted. Its hard. Will say joining a guild helps. I have a great one, Chapter House. Look them up.