Elitism on ESO and Matchmaking

sharkium

When i pug 6 keys im going for sure thing, nonDLCs sure one can carry through people with no idea of mechanics and low level, but when i enter DLC and there are people who dont have a slightest clue of whats going on then yeah one has a reason to leave. Im there to get my 2 keys, and sometimes people join with hopes of "maybe theres couple higher levels and i can slip through".
You´ve had your chance in normal to learn and practice, when i meet someone in veteran then pug then the logical thinking says theyre up for it, if its a pledge of that day i imagine people going for 2 keys aswell because otherwise the could just do normal, and if they are not up for that 2 keys then what the hell are they doing there.
There are guilds, and guildmates for those first dlc hm learning runs, you catch the drift and then be my guest join pugs and do your job.

One either agrees or disagrees with this, but thats my point of view.

AgaTheGreat

kongkim wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

First and foremost CP700 ish + is endgame, prior to that lack of CP makes your survivability and damage inferior with all else equal. So if you just hit CP160 or CP300 you are not at endgame yet. And you yourself will see it once you are closer to max CP. As someone else said don't blame players, blame game design.

Although it's great to strive to reach endgame faster and progress through the trials you have to understand that players you accuse of being elitist experienced countless times again and again how a single player who doesn't have experience or is not fully leveled yet can weigh down the group. It can be difference between clearing and spending 6 hours in the trial banging your head against the wall. It is very noticeable. Again don't blame players, blame game design.

Finally besides just having gear and CP player also needs to practice their rotation (absolute must for dps and even healers) which is basically developing muscle memory to be able to maximize your dps with current game design (aka obscure specifics of each skill and how it works together with other mechanics, such and light attacks, bash, block, barswap. Tbose specifics are not explained ANYWHERE in the game and are just side effects of how game was developed and agreed to be a "feature"). For a tank instead of rotation you have to basically memorize every mechanic of every trial/vet dungeon to be able to proactively manage positioning, use of block and other skills.

All of the above requires countless hours upon hours of practice and it is true prep for endgame. And this is what results in new players not to be easily accepted to the groups. So start working on your rotation first, prove by practicing on the dummy thay your DPS levels are ready or you are able to maintain buffs-debuffs (zen/mk, minor beserk and etc). Or by running vet HM dungeons thay your tanking skill is reliable. Then gradually move to 12man content. Instead of coming unprepared, weighing your group down, wasting time of 11 other people and blaming them that they are toxic when they don't want to group with you anymore.

I guarantee you, if you post 80k parse on Iron Dummy in your 4 guilds - they will start grouping with you much more willingly.

Your options are:
- find group of new players to progress together and don't expect experienced players to spend their time while you learn, unless they specify it's a training run.
- find gouilds that specify that they are aimed at training new players. There's plenty of them too, for example class rep Nefas literally does in on weekly basis during his stream.

And please stop calling people toxic for not wanting to waste their time, they don't owe anything to you.

THIS.. this is the reason Elitism is so bad in this game.
Things like this is what ruins it for a lot of people.

Most of you who preach about toxicity don't understand end-gamers and don't even want to understand them.
This game is really well designed when it comes to progression. 80% or more of the content is accessible to everyone. Yet there are still people who want to push themselves to do the hardest content in the game. Not everyone is happy with pugging normal trials or picking flowers. They want something more.

There's nothing wrong with DPS or experience requirement. If you decide to go further in the PVE environment you'll eventually have to understand a few simple truths:

1. There's always BiS gear and strats
2. DPS is king in this game

That's why ZOS gave us both the trial dummy and ESO logs. So people can actually improve themselves both in a controlled invironment and also analyse their trial performance. How is that toxic / elitist? If you enter this world, you have to accept that, otherwise doing that content is just not for you.

If everyone could do anything in this game it would completely remove the improvement and rivalry factor in the PVE community. Fact is that people in this environment love pushing scores, doing world records and constantly improve and refine their runs.

If something like that is not for you, just do everyone a favour and don't call them elitist or toxic just because this type of game is what makes eso FUN FOR THEM.

Lucious90

RedTalon wrote: »

PVP by default is toxic.

This will never change, just like war.

I have had more welcoming Pugs who have helped me with builds advice pots etc in Pvp than in PvE where I get kicked out for low DPS, but thats my anecdote

Shantu

witchdoctor wrote: »

I'll be blunt: join a guild. There are many great guilds out there, and you can join 5. You'll never have to deal with randoms.

This must be much too obvious an answer. I run all the dungeons and trials I can handle without a spot of elitism. Stop expecting the game to give you what you want. There are plenty of people willing to play your way. You just have to put in the effort to find them.

kongkim

Lucious90 wrote: »

RedTalon wrote: »

PVP by default is toxic.

This will never change, just like war.

I have had more welcoming Pugs who have helped me with builds advice pots etc in Pvp than in PvE where I get kicked out for low DPS, but thats my anecdote

Woop, this were to #137

Elitism and toxicity is not the same..

I say there is WAY to much Elitism in ESO that ruins it alot for people. Endgame or not.
But lets talk about Ved DLC dungeons. i have done most of them when i were under max CP.

I even done some of them with people lower CP then i were.
Its often only a bit slower then with other groups, and say it requires alot more DPS then it really need. only so then can do it 5 min faster. And for that reason also of people are not welcome og get kicked and smacked talked to.. its stupid.

Klad

It's odd coming from GW2 and FFXIV seeing this kind of blatant toxicity in a community, and the fact that it's permitted by the mods.

sad.

roflcopter

Klad wrote: »

It's odd coming from GW2 and FFXIV seeing this kind of blatant toxicity in a community, and the fact that it's permitted by the mods.

sad.

ZOS has every opportunity to clarify, close, moderate in a constructive manner, but seem to just foster and enable.

It's mind boggling.

Nanfoodle

kongkim wrote: »

Lucious90 wrote: »

RedTalon wrote: »

PVP by default is toxic.

This will never change, just like war.

I have had more welcoming Pugs who have helped me with builds advice pots etc in Pvp than in PvE where I get kicked out for low DPS, but thats my anecdote

Woop, this were to #137

Elitism and toxicity is not the same..

I say there is WAY to much Elitism in ESO that ruins it alot for people. Endgame or not.
But lets talk about Ved DLC dungeons. i have done most of them when i were under max CP.

I even done some of them with people lower CP then i were.
Its often only a bit slower then with other groups, and say it requires alot more DPS then it really need. only so then can do it 5 min faster. And for that reason also of people are not welcome og get kicked and smacked talked to.. its stupid.

The problem with a number of high level players. Is they dont give the same consideration to new players that they had learning the game. Its made it hard to get everything done you want/need too. I also dont want to tax my guild in helping me get all the skill points I need from dungeons. I do ask in guild chat if anyone wants to join me and my wife. But most are doing end game content and have done this process on 8 Alts. Something needs to be done for new players to help compensate for this. How, I dont know.

Welfur

To be a bid on the middle ground here,
I understand the frustration of "casual players" when they pug and will be booted out of groups for not meeting the real or imagined thresholds of the dungeon they try.
But on the other hand expectations of those "hardcore players" are sometimes way above anything sensible.
Nobody in normal dungeons needs to meet 50K + DPS, it's just "elitism" that some want to see such numbers to finish a dungeon without any thinking by just bursting everything into oblivion.
The problem is, in my humble opinion, not the expectations of one of the groups, cause both sides are right under certain circumstances. The problem is that the game itself is not making it obvious that there are 2 games (or 3 if you take PvP into account) in one shell. Normal Dungeons are easily doable in pug's and even one experienced player can normally pull a group through. Then there are the dlc dungeons, which even in normal mode demand at least a bid of investment in knowledge and gear. After that there are trials and vet dungeons. The game never tells us "casual players" : hey here you step into a new world and it is a world where casual gaming is not enough anymore. You need a certain investment into the game to do those. I don't talk elite progression levels but basic investment levels, of using 2 bars without breaking your fingers, dodging/blocking (you know the whole stuff you should have learned in normal dungeons but never will cause for experienced players 5 mins in a normal dungeon are 3 to long) Then there are things like buff food and potions which are mandatory in everything beyond normal dungeons to not disrespect the time and effort others put into that run.
And since the game is so bad at differentiating the different necessities and expectations of different player bases it creates an environment of frustration (on both sides) and toxsissity.
Long story short, it is not toxic to tell players you need to reach a certain threshold to be not a burden in higher content but that's not an excuse to demand those levels of "professionalism" in pug groups for normal dungeons. When you cue for a normal pug Dungeon you know that there will be inexperienced or casual players and they deserve the same respect as any high skilled player cause you went into the world of this "casuals".
On the other hand the "casual" player has to respect that there is content which is simply not made for them. If you don't want to invest the countless hours in farming and mindlessly training on dolls you have to respect the more invested players and the work they put into perfecting there chosen trait to a level which is for us casuals not obtainable.
It's not their fault that ZOS tried to make a game for everyone without telling you honestly and upfront: "There is hardcore content which is not intended to be done by everybody"
just my 2 cents

tim99

kongkim wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

First and foremost CP700 ish + is endgame, prior to that lack of CP makes your survivability and damage inferior with all else equal. So if you just hit CP160 or CP300 you are not at endgame yet. And you yourself will see it once you are closer to max CP. As someone else said don't blame players, blame game design.

Although it's great to strive to reach endgame faster and progress through the trials you have to understand that players you accuse of being elitist experienced countless times again and again how a single player who doesn't have experience or is not fully leveled yet can weigh down the group. It can be difference between clearing and spending 6 hours in the trial banging your head against the wall. It is very noticeable. Again don't blame players, blame game design.

Finally besides just having gear and CP player also needs to practice their rotation (absolute must for dps and even healers) which is basically developing muscle memory to be able to maximize your dps with current game design (aka obscure specifics of each skill and how it works together with other mechanics, such and light attacks, bash, block, barswap. Tbose specifics are not explained ANYWHERE in the game and are just side effects of how game was developed and agreed to be a "feature"). For a tank instead of rotation you have to basically memorize every mechanic of every trial/vet dungeon to be able to proactively manage positioning, use of block and other skills.

All of the above requires countless hours upon hours of practice and it is true prep for endgame. And this is what results in new players not to be easily accepted to the groups. So start working on your rotation first, prove by practicing on the dummy thay your DPS levels are ready or you are able to maintain buffs-debuffs (zen/mk, minor beserk and etc). Or by running vet HM dungeons thay your tanking skill is reliable. Then gradually move to 12man content. Instead of coming unprepared, weighing your group down, wasting time of 11 other people and blaming them that they are toxic when they don't want to group with you anymore.

I guarantee you, if you post 80k parse on Iron Dummy in your 4 guilds - they will start grouping with you much more willingly.

Your options are:
- find group of new players to progress together and don't expect experienced players to spend their time while you learn, unless they specify it's a training run.
- find gouilds that specify that they are aimed at training new players. There's plenty of them too, for example class rep Nefas literally does in on weekly basis during his stream.

And please stop calling people toxic for not wanting to waste their time, they don't owe anything to you.

THIS.. this is the reason Elitism is so bad in this game.
Things like this is what ruins it for a lot of people.

exactly.
i totally get it.... it's aboslutly inacceptable, that vet-(raid)groups can choose themselves who they wanna run with and not.
wiping 5 hours without finishing it is just so much more fun than killing a final boss.

#voteForGettingEverythingAvailableAtFirstGameStart

SkysOutThizeOut

@MachoKen I understand it can be frustrating, recommend you go alcast's website and watch videos on builds and rotations and download the addons to record your DPS tests and share the pictures in the guild discords so people will want to invite you because you are now value added. Also, try finding new guilds that do operate on the schedule you do. But much like real world you just don't get the job making lots of money because YOU want it or YOU need it. You also don't get on the sports team or in the club unless you demonstrate the talent or make friends. To be included you have to bring value, at least initially. You could take it upon yourself to make your own guild and try to befriend people and learn together like lots of others have.

Whatever it is, I strongly recommend you read "How to Win Friends and Influence People," by Dale Carnegie.

roflcopter

tim99 wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

First and foremost CP700 ish + is endgame, prior to that lack of CP makes your survivability and damage inferior with all else equal. So if you just hit CP160 or CP300 you are not at endgame yet. And you yourself will see it once you are closer to max CP. As someone else said don't blame players, blame game design.

Although it's great to strive to reach endgame faster and progress through the trials you have to understand that players you accuse of being elitist experienced countless times again and again how a single player who doesn't have experience or is not fully leveled yet can weigh down the group. It can be difference between clearing and spending 6 hours in the trial banging your head against the wall. It is very noticeable. Again don't blame players, blame game design.

Finally besides just having gear and CP player also needs to practice their rotation (absolute must for dps and even healers) which is basically developing muscle memory to be able to maximize your dps with current game design (aka obscure specifics of each skill and how it works together with other mechanics, such and light attacks, bash, block, barswap. Tbose specifics are not explained ANYWHERE in the game and are just side effects of how game was developed and agreed to be a "feature"). For a tank instead of rotation you have to basically memorize every mechanic of every trial/vet dungeon to be able to proactively manage positioning, use of block and other skills.

All of the above requires countless hours upon hours of practice and it is true prep for endgame. And this is what results in new players not to be easily accepted to the groups. So start working on your rotation first, prove by practicing on the dummy thay your DPS levels are ready or you are able to maintain buffs-debuffs (zen/mk, minor beserk and etc). Or by running vet HM dungeons thay your tanking skill is reliable. Then gradually move to 12man content. Instead of coming unprepared, weighing your group down, wasting time of 11 other people and blaming them that they are toxic when they don't want to group with you anymore.

I guarantee you, if you post 80k parse on Iron Dummy in your 4 guilds - they will start grouping with you much more willingly.

Your options are:
- find group of new players to progress together and don't expect experienced players to spend their time while you learn, unless they specify it's a training run.
- find gouilds that specify that they are aimed at training new players. There's plenty of them too, for example class rep Nefas literally does in on weekly basis during his stream.

And please stop calling people toxic for not wanting to waste their time, they don't owe anything to you.

THIS.. this is the reason Elitism is so bad in this game.
Things like this is what ruins it for a lot of people.

exactly.
i totally get it.... it's aboslutly inacceptable, that vet-(raid)groups can choose themselves who they wanna run with and not.
wiping 5 hours without finishing it is just so much more fun than killing a final boss.

#voteForGettingEverythingAvailableAtFirstGameStart

ZOS is probably very proud of their forums. Super constructive and very friendly. Great bunch you fostered here!

Keep it up!

Wifeaggro13

MachoKen wrote: »

So let's talk about elitism.

So i'm basically a new player that reached endgame a week ago, just started to do some normal mode trials, some vet dungeons, started gearing up my characters and all that endgame jazz that any other MMO has, and what i've realized when reaching the endgame content is that the community in general (not all) are pretty toxic towards new players and not generous enough to team up with us and we end up getting delayed regarding endgame progression. I mean, i can understand that we all want to rush things, have a consistent and reliable group to finish of
+3 nCR for example or any vet dungeon fast without any one dying once, but the reality is that everyone has to start from somewhere and make mistakes along the way...thats called learning. Being inside a dungeon or a trial with a 810 CP guy that probably has 6000h ingame, a *** ton of experience and literally being disrespected by those veteran players makes me give up the game and play something else cause at the end of the day if you end up matchmaking with a vet ESO player and that same player *** on you in chat and then rage quits the party leaving you and your group with one less member and unable to finish of the dungeon, which is pretty common btw, you're better off logging out, unistalling the game and invest your time in money on something better. These kind of elitist players totally forget that in the beggining they were trash at the game and maybe worst than some of us, that they too were learning like everyone else. This kind of behaviour needs to have consequences and ZoS doesn't do anything regarding this issue.

Another thing that i'd like to discuss are Trials and the time you spend looking for a group. By now i've did a handful of normal Trials like nCR or nAS to get some gear and i can't understand why the hell there isn't matchmaking to do them like there is in veteran Dungeons?? It doesnt make sense to me that i have to wait sometimes hours on an instance spamming in chat to get a group for a Trial, most of us work and don't have time for this nonsense. And what makes me confused is that most of these normal Trials are way easier and don't impose a real challenge like a veteran DLC dungeons does and there is matchmaking for that. FF14 as matchmaking for normal Trials and it works pretty nicelly btw. This game as like what? 6years? These issues persist and they were never addressed, they prefer to release more content than getting a solution for these problems, i feel most times that ZoS doesnt care one bit about it's community and i'm honestly thinking about leaving the game for good, it just doesn't feel worth it.

I would like to hear the community opinion regarding these points. Thank you.

The basic. Dilemma is Zos didnt build a game for longevity. They built a game to constantly attract new players to sell regurgitated content to. So we have a very sparse and disenchanted end game community that focuses on dps parses and individual performance rather then a end game community. I suggest trying to find a guild that has multiple trial groups . They are few and far between as very little community or guilds stays with eso for long term play . So the echelon of veteran player has grown very tired of teaching over and over and over.

MachoKen

This a good subject, lots of different opinions, some are sweaty, some are chilled, etc etc etc..but the bottom line is, ZoS as a *** ton of money coming from vet and new players alike, they keep releasing chapters, dlc's

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@MachoKen I understand it can be frustrating, recommend you go alcast's website and watch videos on builds and rotations and download the addons to record your DPS tests and share the pictures in the guild discords so people will want to invite you because you are now value added. Also, try finding new guilds that do operate on the schedule you do. But much like real world you just don't get the job making lots of money because YOU want it or YOU need it. You also don't get on the sports team or in the club unless you demonstrate the talent or make friends. To be included you have to bring value, at least initially. You could take it upon yourself to make your own guild and try to befriend people and learn together like lots of others have.

Whatever it is, I strongly recommend you read "How to Win Friends and Influence People," by Dale Carnegie.

You're a funny guy, i can tell you that

MachoKen

So, many posts on this thread, different opinions, humble people that are clearly here to help out and express their views even if they dont agree, some others are here to show of "hey, im max dps in a videogame, i sweat alot n'*** but i lack the social skills outside of my sandboxed mind to have a real and pleasant life outside my basement" (call me toxic now don't be shy lol) and others are here to have a good laugh at the cost of unnecessary drama caused by some (i laughed as well, i must admit) but lets get to the bottom line. ZoS is here to make money, it's not here to please the community, i started this thread so that some issues that concerned me could be addressed in the far future or wtv but they will never be...new players, old players, this game will always make money and money talks and thats all they care about, that is why instead of fixing the code of the game, performance, etc they prefer to release DLC's and Chapters so people can spend that hard earn irl currency, period.

Juhasow

MachoKen wrote: »

zShepplin wrote: »

MachoKen wrote: »

witchdoctor wrote: »

I'll be blunt: join a guild. There are many great guilds out there, and you can join 5. You'll never have to deal with randoms.

I'm part of 4 guilds, they have schedules that i cant attend and most times when i spam in chat that i need a group out of 300 people just 1 gives an answer. Guilds are overrated in this game, totally overrated.

Join different guilds, not hard. Next.

Scrap a guild, join a guild, repeat till you're tired of it, gotcha xD

Oh no what happened to games these days. People need to look for the guilds that will match their expectations. Heresy !

How is it even possible that new players are not instantly invited to a guild that will be open to take them everywhere 24/7 and where more experienced people will sacrifice their lives to teach those new players all mechanics , help them get gear etc. That is unacceptable , new players should be treated like the gods and everything should be handed over to them as fast as possible. Also those more experienced possibly elitist players should drop their lives and jobs plus start abusing drugs just to be awake and at new players disposal whenever new players wishes.

Right ?...

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

Due to baiting and non-constructive commentary, we've closed this thread. Please see community rules here and thank you for your understanding.