How overtuned jabs/sweeps really is

EtTuBrutus

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

My point was more that he's including a passive, while not on others. Whether it's about damage or not. In a vacuum including all the passives, lots of skills are super loaded. Jabs and sweeps just happen to be much more damage oriented. I mean, think of how good netch sounds. But it doesn't kill ppl so it's not brought up.

You can prove your point by posting other class spammables with their passives and compare them to Jabs with its passives.

Somehow I think Jabs would still win out, and by a large margin.

Also, the entire purpose of spammables is to do damage, so when you have a passive that is buffing a spammable to be head and shoulders better than the next best spammable, it's absolutely relevant to include it in a comparison with other class spammables.

No other class has a Burning Light equivalent so of course none can be included in the comparison.

Sure, dks flame lash:

-Can proc burning status effect to increase damage and grants 500 magicka sustain. Also the burning status is increased by 50% vs ANY other class.
-Procs off balance for 10% increased damage though cp, which in turn grants a TON of damage and utility.
-Heals for a large amount
-Stuns
-Wait for it..... 30% SNARE (the passive is on any damage from the tree, so your dots you've got up permanently is a snare like jabs you get upfront without counterplay other than dodge.
- increased damage by 6 percent though passives

You all easily put a number on burning light, but dk ardent passive do WAY more than templars. You can do this with EVERY spammable in the game. While i agree that burning light is a great DAMAGE passive, it's not more than a 10% dmg increase to all damage, a damage/ stun/heal/snare.

This game about total kit, if you're dying to jabs and burning light and not a whole combo, you're bad and don't have the credibility to speak about balance.

ThePhantomThorn

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

My point was more that he's including a passive, while not on others. Whether it's about damage or not. In a vacuum including all the passives, lots of skills are super loaded. Jabs and sweeps just happen to be much more damage oriented. I mean, think of how good netch sounds. But it doesn't kill ppl so it's not brought up.

You can prove your point by posting other class spammables with their passives and compare them to Jabs with its passives.

Somehow I think Jabs would still win out, and by a large margin.

Also, the entire purpose of spammables is to do damage, so when you have a passive that is buffing a spammable to be head and shoulders better than the next best spammable, it's absolutely relevant to include it in a comparison with other class spammables.

No other class has a Burning Light equivalent so of course none can be included in the comparison.

Sure, dks flame lash:

-Can proc burning status effect to increase damage and grants 500 magicka sustain. Also the burning status is increased by 50% vs ANY other class.
-Procs off balance for 10% increased damage though cp, which in turn grants a TON of damage and utility.
-Heals for a large amount
-Stuns
-Wait for it..... 30% SNARE (the passive is on any damage from the tree, so your dots you've got up permanently is a snare like jabs you get upfront without counterplay other than dodge.
- increased damage by 6 percent though passives

You all easily put a number on burning light, but dk ardent passive do WAY more than templars. You can do this with EVERY spammable in the game. While i agree that burning light is a great DAMAGE passive, it's not more than a 10% dmg increase to all damage, a damage/ stun/heal/snare.

This game about total kit, if you're dying to jabs and burning light and not a whole combo, you're bad and don't have the credibility to speak about balance.

I’m bad huh?
Anyways yes a lot of skills proc a lot of passives, but. No passive (except obviously burning light) deals damage. Comparing tooltip.
If we look at all passives I can add 100% minor protection to jabs.
My point is their damage, and that they ALSO deal so many additional effects.

As for the endless stream of ‘it doesn’t always hit’
Yep. I’d doesnt always hit, but neither does dizzy. It takes a bit (not a lot, seeing the inevitable l2p) of skill to land dizzies on kiting targets.
And as I mentioned, if you dodge dizzy you take no damage. If you dodge jabs you still take damage. It might not be the full channel but it still counts.
Also, Templar’s have a gapcloser that stuns, as well as lots of different stuns available. It’s not hard to hit a off balance stun or a dawnbreaker and hit a full channel on the player.
That channel ( with a burning light proc ) will deal more damage than any other skill available.
I can tell you for a fact, a good templar will land a lot of jabs on you. walk through or kite them all you want, a cc will garuntee you take a *** tonne of damage.


https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/thephantomthorn/screenshot/14440307

In this screenshot of a duel against a good stamplar, you may see that I was only ever hit by 2 jabs per channel. Still, I was hit by to burning light procs, and they both delt a lot of damage.
And for the l2p incoming a bit of context. This duel had lasted a while and this player was doing a great job, and eventually I got stunned and jabbed. Gg. But that screenshot should show that even 1/2 of a channel does a great deal of damage.

EtTuBrutus

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

My point was more that he's including a passive, while not on others. Whether it's about damage or not. In a vacuum including all the passives, lots of skills are super loaded. Jabs and sweeps just happen to be much more damage oriented. I mean, think of how good netch sounds. But it doesn't kill ppl so it's not brought up.

You can prove your point by posting other class spammables with their passives and compare them to Jabs with its passives.

Somehow I think Jabs would still win out, and by a large margin.

Also, the entire purpose of spammables is to do damage, so when you have a passive that is buffing a spammable to be head and shoulders better than the next best spammable, it's absolutely relevant to include it in a comparison with other class spammables.

No other class has a Burning Light equivalent so of course none can be included in the comparison.

Sure, dks flame lash:

-Can proc burning status effect to increase damage and grants 500 magicka sustain. Also the burning status is increased by 50% vs ANY other class.
-Procs off balance for 10% increased damage though cp, which in turn grants a TON of damage and utility.
-Heals for a large amount
-Stuns
-Wait for it..... 30% SNARE (the passive is on any damage from the tree, so your dots you've got up permanently is a snare like jabs you get upfront without counterplay other than dodge.
- increased damage by 6 percent though passives

You all easily put a number on burning light, but dk ardent passive do WAY more than templars. You can do this with EVERY spammable in the game. While i agree that burning light is a great DAMAGE passive, it's not more than a 10% dmg increase to all damage, a damage/ stun/heal/snare.

This game about total kit, if you're dying to jabs and burning light and not a whole combo, you're bad and don't have the credibility to speak about balance.

I’m bad huh?
Anyways yes a lot of skills proc a lot of passives, but. No passive (except obviously burning light) deals damage. Comparing tooltip.
If we look at all passives I can add 100% minor protection to jabs.
My point is their damage, and that they ALSO deal so many additional effects.

As for the endless stream of ‘it doesn’t always hit’
Yep. I’d doesnt always hit, but neither does dizzy. It takes a bit (not a lot, seeing the inevitable l2p) of skill to land dizzies on kiting targets.
And as I mentioned, if you dodge dizzy you take no damage. If you dodge jabs you still take damage. It might not be the full channel but it still counts.
Also, Templar’s have a gapcloser that stuns, as well as lots of different stuns available. It’s not hard to hit a off balance stun or a dawnbreaker and hit a full channel on the player.
That channel ( with a burning light proc ) will deal more damage than any other skill available.
I can tell you for a fact, a good templar will land a lot of jabs on you. walk through or kite them all you want, a cc will garuntee you take a *** tonne of damage.


https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/thephantomthorn/screenshot/14440307

In this screenshot of a duel against a good stamplar, you may see that I was only ever hit by 2 jabs per channel. Still, I was hit by to burning light procs, and they both delt a lot of damage.
And for the l2p incoming a bit of context. This duel had lasted a while and this player was doing a great job, and eventually I got stunned and jabbed. Gg. But that screenshot should show that even 1/2 of a channel does a great deal of damage.

You missed the point. You're able to quantify burning light bc it's on your kill screen, and you're neglecting the DAMAGE sources from the dk passives and how they equate to a very similar, albeit different, amount of damage.

Fyi, yes, I'm saying If u simply died to a stun and being jabbed, you made a mistake or are bad.

EtTuBrutus

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

technohic

Phantom is a NB who refuses to run snare immunity. Think shadow image as well if I recall from past posts. So jabs/sweeps breaks cloak because of AOE and perma-snares them. Upset because they cant just cloak templars away.

ThePhantomThorn

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

ThePhantomThorn

technohic wrote: »

Phantom is a NB who refuses to run snare immunity. Think shadow image as well if I recall from past posts. So jabs/sweeps breaks cloak because of AOE and perma-snares them. Upset because they cant just cloak templars away.

Last time I didn’t run shade was elsweyr when it was bugged. And nb mains know shuffle is less good now. Leeching is mandatory.
But if you read above I currently play a melee magblade. Built it a few days ago and it’s fun but rather difficult.
But believe me, if you play melee magblade you will see what I mean about jabs. You can’t avoid it very well, and it deals a huge amount of damage.

technohic

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Phantom is a NB who refuses to run snare immunity. Think shadow image as well if I recall from past posts. So jabs/sweeps breaks cloak because of AOE and perma-snares them. Upset because they cant just cloak templars away.

Last time I didn’t run shade was elsweyr when it was bugged. And nb mains know shuffle is less good now. Leeching is mandatory.
But if you read above I currently play a melee magblade. Built it a few days ago and it’s fun but rather difficult.
But believe me, if you play melee magblade you will see what I mean about jabs. You can’t avoid it very well, and it deals a huge amount of damage.

I do play one. I get in trouble if I try to stand toe to toe in a confined area. The ones that hit hard, it works much better to hit and run as they often are susceptible to burst. Templates defense is based on healing if magicka, and they have very little active defense. Minor protection for them relies on offensive abilities.

Forget shuffle. Use forward momentum even if medium. Rally is not going to help when it takes 20 seconds to burst.

EtTuBrutus

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

You're not using phantasymal escape?? Why not? You're running rat over shade? Sorry man, but maim and evasion dumps all over jabs. i understand not using shade in a duel though.

ThePhantomThorn

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

You're not using phantasymal escape?? Why not? You're running rat over shade? Sorry man, but maim and evasion dumps all over jabs. i understand not using shade in a duel though.

No. I have rat and shade. When did I say I didn’t have shade? And rat’s expedition is too good to lose

EtTuBrutus

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

You're not using phantasymal escape?? Why not? You're running rat over shade? Sorry man, but maim and evasion dumps all over jabs. i understand not using shade in a duel though.

No. I have rat and shade. When did I say I didn’t have shade? And rat’s expedition is too good to lose

Expedition is nice, i don't necessarily blame you for wanting it. But with shade, evasion, snare removal and immunity, you'd eat jabs. Having evasion on magicka is there bees knees.

Iskiab

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

You're not using phantasymal escape?? Why not? You're running rat over shade? Sorry man, but maim and evasion dumps all over jabs. i understand not using shade in a duel though.

On my magblade I haven’t run phantasmal escape in a long time outside full healer builds. Mist for escape is better then a 2-3 button combo to get out of a bad situation.

If you don’t heal until your third GCD you’re pretty much dead unless you’re fighting potatoes.

EtTuBrutus

Iskiab wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

You're not using phantasymal escape?? Why not? You're running rat over shade? Sorry man, but maim and evasion dumps all over jabs. i understand not using shade in a duel though.

On my magblade I haven’t run phantasmal escape in a long time outside full healer builds. Mist for escape is better then a 2-3 button combo to get out of a bad situation.

If you don’t heal until your third GCD you’re pretty much dead unless you’re fighting potatoes.

Mist is strong with los. Shade is stronger.

Iskiab

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Also phantom, based on that screen shot, you had youre defense down or have a literal glass build. In all honesty screen shots don't prove anything with out full context like buffs on each player. I has someone send me a message bc i got him with an 11k jab after an onslaught with fury, truth, and masters bow on him... which ive hit 13k on my warden using the same set up. A screen shot means Jack regarding balance discussions bc no context is given.

For clarification I’m maiming a melee magblade atm. So yes I’m squishy.
And of course people make mistakes in pvp. My mistake is I didn’t manage my stam enough near the end.
If we never made mistakes then it would go on for ever.

My point is jabs does more damage than it should.
Dizzy swing builds are much easier to fight as I can just kite them and take no damage. Rat helps with that. But try that on a templar you still take a lot of damage in the few seconds that your stunned.

You're not using phantasymal escape?? Why not? You're running rat over shade? Sorry man, but maim and evasion dumps all over jabs. i understand not using shade in a duel though.

On my magblade I haven’t run phantasmal escape in a long time outside full healer builds. Mist for escape is better then a 2-3 button combo to get out of a bad situation.

If you don’t heal until your third GCD you’re pretty much dead unless you’re fighting potatoes.

Mist is strong with los. Shade is stronger.

Yea, shade’s good, the issue is moreso bar space. It has its uses but is mostly used for solo tower trolling. One issue I’ve encountered with shade is there’s a half-1 second travel time and if you’re heavily dotted you can end your port dead. Mist will clear all the crap on you making shade stronger.

Plus, relying on shade for all your defense is bad. There’s a 1-4 second window every cast where you’ll be too close to the shade to make porting effective. Mist takes care of this too.

It’s also niche. It doesn’t have a use in most pvp situations, it’s moreso a potato farming skill for solo play. There are better choices in BGs and any sort of group play in cyrodiil.

nublife01

As an undertuned stamblade I actually have the least amount of problems with templars. I actually thing stamplars are very balanced and if anything magplar is a little strong. DK's and Necro's and honestly any stamclass using fury heavy armor right now other than templar actually seem very overtuned. Just because your broken DK is getting countered by a templar doesn't mean they need nerfs.

technohic

nublife01 wrote: »

As an undertuned stamblade I actually have the least amount of problems with templars. I actually thing stamplars are very balanced and if anything magplar is a little strong. DK's and Necro's and honestly any stamclass using fury heavy armor right now other than templar actually seem very overtuned. Just because your broken DK is getting countered by a templar doesn't mean they need nerfs.

You are an exception as it tends to just be NBs complaining about jabs/sweeps because they cant just cloak out if spam; or about crescent sweep because it doesn't have a cast time when their ultimate does. Then sorcs and speedsters dont like the stun on toppling charge when they want to run away. DKs, Wardens, and necros tend to welcome the company.

UppGRAYxDD

Lmao this thread!!! Ahhh it’s been awhile since I’ve seen a “nerf sweeps” thread. Thanks OP for the nostalgia.

ESO_Nightingale

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

ecru

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

Your numbers on Flurry are wrong, the fourth attack does 300% of the initial attack, not 300% more, so about 15% less than the number you posted, and I'm pretty sure 225 spell damage doesn't increase the damage of Molten Whip by like 20% (!!!). Also, aren't you assuming that every cast of blastbones, shalks, or every other ability lands 100% of the time, and then comparing it to jabs which only ever lands 3 hits? Is blastbones/shalks just never avoided, or what? I don't understand these comparisons in which people are assuming every other ability hits 100% of the time, and jabs never does. In reality, every ability is avoided to some extent, and the ones you mention are by far the easiest to avoid if you can count to three. And if you want to directly compare Flurry to Jabs and assume the first 4 attacks hit, Flurry will only do about 57% of the damage of three hits of jabs, not including a proc.

Your "extreme case" is just a channel of jabs and a proc landing. That's it. It's just an ability working the way it's supposed to. This is just as "extreme" as blastbones, shalks, or molten whip hitting someone, meaning, not really extreme at all, and in fact those abilities are probably easier to avoid than jabs as long as you can count as high as three. In your extreme case (jabs landing with a proc) it does more than dizzy, flurry, shalks, blastbones, crystal frags, spectral bow, dawnbreaker, and incap, with the only outlier ability doing more damage being molten whip, but again that's ezpz to avoid if you can count 1-2-3 and block. I mean, half of these abilities you're comparing it to are conditional and cannot be spammed, and some of the ones I mentioned are ults, yet somehow this spammable ability doing more damage if it just works properly is balanced?

:thinking:

ESO_Nightingale

ecru wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

Your numbers on Flurry are wrong, the fourth attack does 300% of the initial attack, not 300% more, so about 15% less than the number you posted, and I'm pretty sure 225 spell damage doesn't increase the damage of Molten Whip by like 20% (!!!). Also, aren't you assuming that every cast of blastbones, shalks, or every other ability lands 100% of the time, and then comparing it to jabs which only ever lands 3 hits? Is blastbones/shalks just never avoided, or what? I don't understand these comparisons in which people are assuming every other ability hits 100% of the time, and jabs never does. In reality, every ability is avoided to some extent, and the ones you mention are by far the easiest to avoid if you can count to three. And if you want to directly compare Flurry to Jabs and assume the first 4 attacks hit, Flurry will only do about 57% of the damage of three hits of jabs, not including a proc.

Your "extreme case" is just a channel of jabs and a proc landing. That's it. It's just an ability working the way it's supposed to. This is just as "extreme" as blastbones, shalks, or molten whip hitting someone, meaning, not really extreme at all, and in fact those abilities are probably easier to avoid than jabs as long as you can count as high as three. In your extreme case (jabs landing with a proc) it does more than dizzy, flurry, shalks, blastbones, crystal frags, spectral bow, dawnbreaker, and incap, with the only outlier ability doing more damage being molten whip, but again that's ezpz to avoid if you can count 1-2-3 and block. I mean, half of these abilities you're comparing it to are conditional and cannot be spammed, and some of the ones I mentioned are ults, yet somehow this spammable ability doing more damage if it just works properly is balanced?

:thinking:

not my numbers, but i'll pass this message along.

ESO_Nightingale

ecru wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

Your numbers on Flurry are wrong, the fourth attack does 300% of the initial attack, not 300% more, so about 15% less than the number you posted, and I'm pretty sure 225 spell damage doesn't increase the damage of Molten Whip by like 20% (!!!). Also, aren't you assuming that every cast of blastbones, shalks, or every other ability lands 100% of the time, and then comparing it to jabs which only ever lands 3 hits? Is blastbones/shalks just never avoided, or what? I don't understand these comparisons in which people are assuming every other ability hits 100% of the time, and jabs never does. In reality, every ability is avoided to some extent, and the ones you mention are by far the easiest to avoid if you can count to three. And if you want to directly compare Flurry to Jabs and assume the first 4 attacks hit, Flurry will only do about 57% of the damage of three hits of jabs, not including a proc.

Your "extreme case" is just a channel of jabs and a proc landing. That's it. It's just an ability working the way it's supposed to. This is just as "extreme" as blastbones, shalks, or molten whip hitting someone, meaning, not really extreme at all, and in fact those abilities are probably easier to avoid than jabs as long as you can count as high as three. In your extreme case (jabs landing with a proc) it does more than dizzy, flurry, shalks, blastbones, crystal frags, spectral bow, dawnbreaker, and incap, with the only outlier ability doing more damage being molten whip, but again that's ezpz to avoid if you can count 1-2-3 and block. I mean, half of these abilities you're comparing it to are conditional and cannot be spammed, and some of the ones I mentioned are ults, yet somehow this spammable ability doing more damage if it just works properly is balanced?

:thinking:

his response:

I only listed different values of jabs hit to show, what we can expect and what numbers are comparable. My average hits per jabs is taken from OP and others people, who mentioned those in the thread. I never assumed, that some of the other attacks never miss, so i only made a mathematical comparison and did bot value jabs stronger or weaker than others skill, just because i listed some different hut rates. Critisicing for making a general statement like you is pretty dumb. About molten whip: actually a 225 spelldamage increase is as much as a 20% damage increase if we compare zero spelldamage to 225. you just made the best example to prove my point: base mathematics, even if looked at passives (which OP did not) is flawed and not applyable for the game at all. About my extreme case, I listed proc chances of burning lights for the different amount of hits. Thats why I called it the extreme case, since the proc is not guaranteed even with 4 hits.

idk

The numbers for Flurry might be 15% off but it still shows a much more appropriate comparison to actual in game results than the tool tips OP provided and incorrectly tried to push it off as accurate.

We have been trying to tell OP their numbers are in a vacuum and as a result ignore actual in game results. So it is good to post more accurate numbers like that (instead of being lazy like myself) which demonstrate how wrong the comparison in the OP is.

ESO_Nightingale

idk wrote: »

The numbers for Flurry might be 15% off but it still shows a much more appropriate comparison to actual in game results than the tool tips OP provided and incorrectly tried to push it off as accurate.

We have been trying to tell OP their numbers are in a vacuum and as a result ignore actual in game results. So it is good to post more accurate numbers like that (instead of being lazy like myself) which demonstrate how wrong the comparison in the OP is.

response:

The whole point of my math, even if it is a bit more accurate, is to show how flawed this whole math is. OP wanted to push his statement by providing false numbers, i just wanted to show the numbers can look a bit differently applying some passives of other classes plus penetration values. What eccru did not understand at all is, that i only compared numbers and did not make any statement about what skill is better. The whole pvp is an uncontrolled environment, so math can not apply here. Especially the molten whip example shows how far from the truth are those base numbers. As said, my whole point is, that those numbers do not apply to pvp and eccru does a fantastic job not getting that point. OP wanted to push his agenda by showing this numbers, but here the experience shows differences. Most responses look like they do not agree with OP and explain why those base numbers are far from the truth. Same as my numbers

Victor_Blade

Templars need to die

HankTwo

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

Your numbers on Flurry are wrong, the fourth attack does 300% of the initial attack, not 300% more, so about 15% less than the number you posted, and I'm pretty sure 225 spell damage doesn't increase the damage of Molten Whip by like 20% (!!!). Also, aren't you assuming that every cast of blastbones, shalks, or every other ability lands 100% of the time, and then comparing it to jabs which only ever lands 3 hits? Is blastbones/shalks just never avoided, or what? I don't understand these comparisons in which people are assuming every other ability hits 100% of the time, and jabs never does. In reality, every ability is avoided to some extent, and the ones you mention are by far the easiest to avoid if you can count to three. And if you want to directly compare Flurry to Jabs and assume the first 4 attacks hit, Flurry will only do about 57% of the damage of three hits of jabs, not including a proc.

Your "extreme case" is just a channel of jabs and a proc landing. That's it. It's just an ability working the way it's supposed to. This is just as "extreme" as blastbones, shalks, or molten whip hitting someone, meaning, not really extreme at all, and in fact those abilities are probably easier to avoid than jabs as long as you can count as high as three. In your extreme case (jabs landing with a proc) it does more than dizzy, flurry, shalks, blastbones, crystal frags, spectral bow, dawnbreaker, and incap, with the only outlier ability doing more damage being molten whip, but again that's ezpz to avoid if you can count 1-2-3 and block. I mean, half of these abilities you're comparing it to are conditional and cannot be spammed, and some of the ones I mentioned are ults, yet somehow this spammable ability doing more damage if it just works properly is balanced?

:thinking:

his response:

I only listed different values of jabs hit to show, what we can expect and what numbers are comparable. My average hits per jabs is taken from OP and others people, who mentioned those in the thread. I never assumed, that some of the other attacks never miss, so i only made a mathematical comparison and did bot value jabs stronger or weaker than others skill, just because i listed some different hut rates. Critisicing for making a general statement like you is pretty dumb. About molten whip: actually a 225 spelldamage increase is as much as a 20% damage increase if we compare zero spelldamage to 225. you just made the best example to prove my point: base mathematics, even if looked at passives (which OP did not) is flawed and not applyable for the game at all. About my extreme case, I listed proc chances of burning lights for the different amount of hits. Thats why I called it the extreme case, since the proc is not guaranteed even with 4 hits.

Just to make things clear, I don't think jabs itself is OP. Burning light might need some tweaking though.

However, the comparison your friend made is inherently flawed. You simply can't use base stats (0 weapon/spell damage, ~8k magicka/stamina) to compare skills the moment stuff like the following is involved:

- flat stat boni from skills (the 225 spell damage is a good example here, their impact on a base stat template is far larger than on an average PvP build) --> adding flat boni to super low stat builds has a much greater impact than on a realistic build

- percental stat boni from passives (for example a +10% weapon damage passive has obviously no effect on 0 weapon damage template) --> the impact of percental stat boosts is skewed if the mag/spell damage or stam/weapon damage ratio is too unrealistic

Imo, its much more accurate to create a template with more realistic stats and then just compare classes using the same build. In case of a mag/stam comparison mirror builds (for example bright-throat vs bone pirate) or sets that benefit both equally (shacklebreaker and new moon) are adviseable. The comparison will never be 100% transferrable to other builds, since as explained above, the impact of passives often depends on the exact stats someone has, but nevertheless it will be much more accurate overall.

Edit: typos.

Ragnarock41

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Class skills. Taken from ESO skillbook. No 2nd effects listed or how it is affected by passives just raw numbers. All stamina morphs since that seems to be the focus here.

DK - Stone Giant 911 physical damage, 15-meter range. Cast time instant.
Templar - Jabs: 341x4 = 1364 physical damage if all four hit, 8-meter range. Cast time 1 second channel
Necros - Venom skull: 847 poison damage, 28-meter range. Cast time instant.
Sorc– No class spammable. The true crime here.
NB – Surprise attack – 911 physical damage, 5-meter range. Cast time instant.
Warden – Cutting dive – 820 physical damage, 28-meter range. Cast time instant.

Weapon skill lines also taken from same website.

Dizzy Swing/Wrecking Blow – 1082 physical damage, 7-meter range. Cast time 0.8 seconds.
Deep Lash – 705 physical damage, 6-meter range 6-meter radius. Cast time instant.
Power Bash – 911 physical damage, 5-meter range Cast time instant.
Rapid Strikes – 1400 physical damage if I did my math right and all 5 hits land, 7-meter range, Cast time 0.6 seconds.
Shrouded Daggers – 705 physical damage, 22-meters, 8-meters radius. Cast time instant.
Lethal Arrow- 1233 poison damage, 35-meter range, Cast time 1 second.
Focused Aim – 1233 physical damage, 40-meter range, Cast time 1 second.

Jabs is the 2nd strongest here with rapid strikes the strongest. Ironically both have a cast time. The reason they have higher damage is because they have a cast time thus harder to light attack weave and cancel. The real problem here is the no class Socr stamina skill, although Bound Armaments is a nice addition.

would you like to trade bound armaments with stonefist?

Jabbs_Giggity

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

My point was more that he's including a passive, while not on others. Whether it's about damage or not. In a vacuum including all the passives, lots of skills are super loaded. Jabs and sweeps just happen to be much more damage oriented. I mean, think of how good netch sounds. But it doesn't kill ppl so it's not brought up.

You can prove your point by posting other class spammables with their passives and compare them to Jabs with its passives.

Somehow I think Jabs would still win out, and by a large margin.

Also, the entire purpose of spammables is to do damage, so when you have a passive that is buffing a spammable to be head and shoulders better than the next best spammable, it's absolutely relevant to include it in a comparison with other class spammables.

No other class has a Burning Light equivalent so of course none can be included in the comparison.

Sure, dks flame lash:

-Can proc burning status effect to increase damage and grants 500 magicka sustain. Also the burning status is increased by 50% vs ANY other class.
-Procs off balance for 10% increased damage though cp, which in turn grants a TON of damage and utility.
-Heals for a large amount
-Stuns
-Wait for it..... 30% SNARE (the passive is on any damage from the tree, so your dots you've got up permanently is a snare like jabs you get upfront without counterplay other than dodge.
- increased damage by 6 percent though passives

You all easily put a number on burning light, but dk ardent passive do WAY more than templars. You can do this with EVERY spammable in the game. While i agree that burning light is a great DAMAGE passive, it's not more than a 10% dmg increase to all damage, a damage/ stun/heal/snare.

This game about total kit, if you're dying to jabs and burning light and not a whole combo, you're bad and don't have the credibility to speak about balance.

I’m bad huh?
Anyways yes a lot of skills proc a lot of passives, but. No passive (except obviously burning light) deals damage. Comparing tooltip.
If we look at all passives I can add 100% minor protection to jabs.
My point is their damage, and that they ALSO deal so many additional effects.

As for the endless stream of ‘it doesn’t always hit’
Yep. I’d doesnt always hit, but neither does dizzy. It takes a bit (not a lot, seeing the inevitable l2p) of skill to land dizzies on kiting targets.
And as I mentioned, if you dodge dizzy you take no damage. If you dodge jabs you still take damage. It might not be the full channel but it still counts.
Also, Templar’s have a gapcloser that stuns, as well as lots of different stuns available. It’s not hard to hit a off balance stun or a dawnbreaker and hit a full channel on the player.
That channel ( with a burning light proc ) will deal more damage than any other skill available.
I can tell you for a fact, a good templar will land a lot of jabs on you. walk through or kite them all you want, a cc will garuntee you take a *** tonne of damage.


https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/thephantomthorn/screenshot/14440307

In this screenshot of a duel against a good stamplar, you may see that I was only ever hit by 2 jabs per channel. Still, I was hit by to burning light procs, and they both delt a lot of damage.
And for the l2p incoming a bit of context. This duel had lasted a while and this player was doing a great job, and eventually I got stunned and jabbed. Gg. But that screenshot should show that even 1/2 of a channel does a great deal of damage.

Just to clarify, you were hit by 2 burning lights out of 4 (or more) full channels of Jabs (which only hit for 50% of each channel) that only hit for 3500 on average (one crit hit), but majority of your arguments is Jabs is too OP because it has a 20K+ Tooltip and isn't easy to avoid...hmm...
Also, willing to bet that guy built for damage with NMA and either Fury or another damage set.
I know with full Fury stacks and NMA + Major Brutality, WD Enchant and Off-Balance my BL tooltip is almost 10K - but PVP is 1/2, so off the bat 5K tooltip before any mitigation with a 25% chance to proc (As you can see Jabs hardly hits for all four per channel)...

I was hitting 5K Surprise Attacks in BG's last night regularly without crits...

Jabbs_Giggity

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

Only think I would point out is the 2H Passive that increases damage of next attack after a fully charged HA - which many Stam toons use now. Harder to weave full HA inbetween Jabs (and further clarification would it increase entire channel or just first jab?)

technohic

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The following comment was not made by me but i was asked to post it here:

I wanted to react a bit to the flawed math OP did in here. Maybe this will show even how flawed base mathematics is, since different classes have different builds and stamina chars in general get higher tooltips too. So even if I only show some basic math, this will not show at all how stuff impacts the game.


First of all I want to go back to the jabs tooltip:


OP here used the correct numbers of 308 damage per jab (there are 4 per channel) and 477 for a burning light proc. Therefore the max damage jabs can do is 1709 damage in the rare case of 2 burning light procs, which is the case in 6.25% if all 4 hits connect. 


With base mathematics we can assume, that with 4 hits, there is a chance of approximately 31% (¾^4) to not get a proc at all, a 63% to get one proc and 6% to get 2. In average we get 75% procs with 4 hits, so the damage of the full jabs would be 4 times 308 plus 0.75 times 477.

With three hits the chance for a double burning light proc is approximately zero, since templars land normally the first 3 hits or the last 3 hits. The chance to not proc it is 42% and the for one proc 58%. So total damage is 3 times 308 plus 0.58 times 477.

With two hits the chance to not get a proc is 56%, therefore chance for one proc is 44%. Total damage would be 2 times 308 plus 0.44 times 477.


Average damage of jabs:


4 hits: 1590

3 hits: 1201

2 hits: 826


Even OP brought up examples, where he got hit in average by only 2 hits of the whole jabs channel (see the damage of 2 hits and look at tooltips of other class spammables, which looks pretty much in line with them).


Now lets look at some other skills OP mentioned for flawed comparison, since he only looked at the tooltip, but did not include passives like he did with the burning light proc.


For the weapon spammables like flurry and dizzy, I for example included the passives energized and amplitude of a sorc.


Base tooltip of dizzying swing is 976, but energized (5% more shock and physical damage) increases that to 1025 damage. Amplitude (10% more damage to full life enemies) makes that to 1127.

Same we do with flurry: base is 1000, energized adds 49 (1049) and with amplitudes its 1154.

Snipe starts at 1112, with energized its 1168 and amplitudes adds up to 1285.


Dizzy: 1127

Flurry: 1154

Snipe: 1285


Those numbers look very similar to those of 3 jabs hits, which is maybe more or less what a good templer hits on average.



I now compare also the delayed skills like blastbones and shalks and the proc skills like c-frag, spectral bow, bound armament and the molten lash with 3 stacks.


First off shalks: base tooltip is 1146, but hanks to the advanced species and piercing cold it gains additional 2% and 10% resulting in 1284 damage. Since it provides major breach too, we add another 8% (this is not totally accurate, since we actually lessen the enemies resistances by 8% and do not buff our damage. If the enemy has resistances equal to 20% mitigation, major breach actually is a 10% damage difference) to get  1387 damage.


Blastbones’ tooltip sits at 1273 damage and passively profits from 1500 penetration (2.27%). We are going to add those too (again this in only implying some damage boost, but it is not accurate. An enemy with 20% mitigation from resistances actually gets 3.4% more damage after this penetration bonus) and get 1307 damage.


C-frag’s base tooltip is 1112 damage and with a chance of 35% we get additional 33% damage (and people only going to use it then normally), which results in 1479 damage. With amplitude we get 1627 damage.


Spectral bow is just a flat 1680 damage, nightblades do not have any damage buffs, but some additional crit chances, which I do not even want to start with.


Bound armament is is 4 times 371 damage and gets with energized up to 390 per hits (1560 in total). Amplitude adds additional 151 damage, so in total 1716 damage.


Molten whip starts at 822 base damage, but three stacks grant 225 spelldamage, which results in 1068 damage. Now we add the 99% damage increase for the stacks and get 2125 damage.


For a reference, since OP mentioned onslaught wwe also look at a stamsorc’s onslaught. With energized we already sit at 1510 damage and get 1661 with amplitude. Assuming 20k resistances in cyrodiil on average (which is already kind of low for the “tank-meta”, we get an additional 43% damage increase (think about what I said about calculating penetration before, it is not done accurately here, you already see a damage difference of 25% against somebody with 20% mitigation from resistances), which would be like 2373 damage.


For better overview:


Shalks: 1387

Blastbones: 1307

C-frag: 1627

Spectral bow: 1680

Bound armament: 1716

Molten whip: 2125

Onslaught: 2373


Both the timed skills blastbones and shalks have a hight tooltip then the average jabs we can expect from a good player. Also both those skills most likely will happen at the very same time as a bursty skill like dizzy or an ultimate like onslaught. The proc skills do all more damage than what we can expect from a lucky templar with 4 hits of jabs, only the extremely lucky hit happening at the chance of 6.25% surpasses the damage of c-frag and spectral bow, but is still weaker than the others and by far weaker than the onslaught ultimate.


Conclusion:

Jabs damage is very dependent on how many hits we get. The average amount of hits probably lies between 2 and 3. On the lower end, the average damage is very similar to the damage of all other spammables, on the higher end its comes close to the delayed damage skills. In extreme cases it deals damage similar to the some of the procced skills.


I hope my wall of text showed, how flawed OPs comparison of basic math was, since he did not include other class passives (even I may have missed some). Also my mathematics still does not show the truth at all, since as said at the beginning, tooltips and mitigations vary a lot between different classes and specs.

Only think I would point out is the 2H Passive that increases damage of next attack after a fully charged HA - which many Stam toons use now. Harder to weave full HA inbetween Jabs (and further clarification would it increase entire channel or just first jab?)

Typically before empower was changed to only buff light attacks, and had a similar mechanism to 2h heavy; it only buffed the first jab hit.

idk

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The numbers for Flurry might be 15% off but it still shows a much more appropriate comparison to actual in game results than the tool tips OP provided and incorrectly tried to push it off as accurate.

We have been trying to tell OP their numbers are in a vacuum and as a result ignore actual in game results. So it is good to post more accurate numbers like that (instead of being lazy like myself) which demonstrate how wrong the comparison in the OP is.

response:

The whole point of my math, even if it is a bit more accurate, is to show how flawed this whole math is. OP wanted to push his statement by providing false numbers, i just wanted to show the numbers can look a bit differently applying some passives of other classes plus penetration values. What eccru did not understand at all is, that i only compared numbers and did not make any statement about what skill is better. The whole pvp is an uncontrolled environment, so math can not apply here. Especially the molten whip example shows how far from the truth are those base numbers. As said, my whole point is, that those numbers do not apply to pvp and eccru does a fantastic job not getting that point. OP wanted to push his agenda by showing this numbers, but here the experience shows differences. Most responses look like they do not agree with OP and explain why those base numbers are far from the truth. Same as my numbers

I was not bashing the minor flaw. Just agreeing that OP is cherry picking in their comparison which is somewhat what you are saying.