How overtuned jabs/sweeps really is

idk

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

Templars always fight inside ritual. Because they can replace it.

The do not. If the are constantly having to move out of it then it becomes a waste of a GDC.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

Jabs can hit constantly. You can hit 3 jab channels in the same time as one shalks.

Not against a half decent player that is not AFK. They will move out of jabs making it weak.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

It has a higher tooltip than onslaught.

Again, you ignore that jabs is easily avoidable making the total damage much less. That is why when comparing skills in the vacuum you have the comparison is meaningless.

TheBonesXXX

It's going to be on the chop block due to the new overloaded skills philosophy.

But have you ever tried to land jabs, Scythe, or Rapid Strikes? Lag really does a number on them.

Jabbs_Giggity

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

The old snare. Old. Old. Not relevant.
Templars always fight inside ritual. Because they can replace it.
It has a higher tooltip than onslaught.
And shalks land every 3 secs.
Jabs can hit constantly. You can hit 3 jab channels in the same time as one shalks.
I used to play stamplar all the time. A dizzy into 2x jab and a execute killed pretty much anyone. It was easy to land because everyone else was moving 70% slower. It’s 40% now but still... it’s not hard to land.

Let me ask you. Is it ok that a spammable hits harder than onslaught?
No buts, no ifs.
In a simple yes or no.

Onslaught ignores resistances. You forgot to mention that, by the way...

idk

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

The old snare. Old. Old. Not relevant.
Templars always fight inside ritual. Because they can replace it.
It has a higher tooltip than onslaught.
And shalks land every 3 secs.
Jabs can hit constantly. You can hit 3 jab channels in the same time as one shalks.
I used to play stamplar all the time. A dizzy into 2x jab and a execute killed pretty much anyone. It was easy to land because everyone else was moving 70% slower. It’s 40% now but still... it’s not hard to land.

Let me ask you. Is it ok that a spammable hits harder than onslaught?
No buts, no ifs.
In a simple yes or no.

Onslaught ignores resistances. You forgot to mention that, by the way...

True. As I have said OP is comparing skills in a vacuum and ignoring actual game play. As a result they “analysis” is very flawed and skewed.

Jabbs_Giggity

I would just like to clarify to OP as food for thought that tool-tips mean nothing. I do not have my screenshots, as I am not home currently. However, Jabs (stamina morph) has hit me for the following:
I am playing on StamNB with 20k resistances and all 5 relentless stacks. Shade is not active so no -15% mitigation and Major Evasion is not slotted

Non-CP BG's - 5k (x4 jabs / hits) and 3.4k (x3 jabs / hits)
CP Cyrodiil - 4.4k (x4 jabs / hits) and 2.2k (x2 jabs / hits)
Average jabs landed per channel in recaps was 2.
Burning light average damage is 1.1k, 1.3k (CP, No-CP)

Not quite the 16k the tool-tip claims.

Average DSwing is around 4k non-crit.
Average surprise attack is around 2-4k, but have seen builds hit average of 5-6k from decent players.

So actual ratios of in-game damage versus tool-tip is: 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 for each skill listed respectively.

Magplar Sweeps hits for less; generally by approx. 1-2K overall. In Non-CP no one benefits from the damage increase to off-balance, while in CP most Magplars benefit from this 10% increase in CP Tree because of Sweeps switching to DD - therefore, off-balance on Toppling is irrelevant, other than for a Stun.

Now, on MY Stamplar I generally do the average:
Non-CP BG's: 2-4K Jabs per channel (higher against less tanky players; maybe 5K-ish for all four jabs connecting [RARE])
CP Cyro: 1-3k Jabs per channel (higher against less tanky players; maybe 4K-ish for all four jabs connecting [RARE])
Overall I can efficiently land 2-3 Jabs per channel with 1-2 BL procs per THREE full channels
By the way, my Jabs tool-tip is 5.1K fully buffed...PER Jab...so why am I hitting on average say 5K per channel when my tool-tip is an OP disgusting 20.4K un-critted?? Mitigation and hard to land is the answer

Edit for further clarification/context in bold

Hexquisite

CynicK wrote: »

I think it is still it a bit overtuned too, that when fighting against them spamable vs spamable i always lose, you just feel when they attack they are doing more damage per second as the op seems to point out, but in my case I have grinded crushing weapon and no longer fear templars.
One thing i did not have clear from the discussion is if it can be mitigated with evasion, so it can for what i read.

See you adjusted,. This is the problem, no one wants to change one of their known set ups or rotations, and when the game keeps changing, ya kinda have to IMHO. The better players that I have come across in the past few years, always adjust for the latest meta via gear, potions, poisons, or skills.

Hexquisite

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

It's going to be on the chop block due to the new overloaded skills philosophy.

But have you ever tried to land jabs, Scythe, or Rapid Strikes? Lag really does a number on them.

Yes, most small scalers who aren't out just killing potatoes, are not running their Stamplars or Magplars right now, and only do if they are zerg surfing potatoes. I don't when the last time was that I ran into a small scale DPS Magplar in a tower, and have only seen 1 or 2 Small Scale Stamplars in my time slot.

technohic

Hexquisite wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

It's going to be on the chop block due to the new overloaded skills philosophy.

But have you ever tried to land jabs, Scythe, or Rapid Strikes? Lag really does a number on them.

Yes, most small scalers who aren't out just killing potatoes, are not running their Stamplars or Magplars right now, and only do if they are zerg surfing potatoes.

Its actually interesting if you watch Kristopher or whoever it is. EP Templar. He wasnt even using Jabs last I saw him. He just crit rushed

Gnortranermara

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

against japs they could negate 1 jab max. therefore still being hit by 3 jabs.

Lies. Unworthy of further comment.

/thread

Hexquisite

technohic wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

It's going to be on the chop block due to the new overloaded skills philosophy.

But have you ever tried to land jabs, Scythe, or Rapid Strikes? Lag really does a number on them.

Yes, most small scalers who aren't out just killing potatoes, are not running their Stamplars or Magplars right now, and only do if they are zerg surfing potatoes.

Its actually interesting if you watch Kristopher or whoever it is. EP Templar. He wasnt even using Jabs last I saw him. He just crit rushed

I acutally havent been using sweeps either when I have played my Magplar, but I haven't played her much in a couple months now.

TheBonesXXX

Hexquisite wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

It's going to be on the chop block due to the new overloaded skills philosophy.

But have you ever tried to land jabs, Scythe, or Rapid Strikes? Lag really does a number on them.

Yes, most small scalers who aren't out just killing potatoes, are not running their Stamplars or Magplars right now, and only do if they are zerg surfing potatoes. I don't when the last time was that I ran into a small scale DPS Magplar in a tower, and have only seen 1 or 2 Small Scale Stamplars in my time slot.

Very sad, I love Jabs, Rapid Strikes, and Scythe.

Lag > them

Daemonai

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BRP DW reduces the damage of Jabs by 55% with one button press. If you aren't passed out over your keyboard that backbar 2pc set alone should ensure you never die to a Templar in a 1v1.

The counter to an OP ability is an OP weapon set. Makes sense

Sanctum74

Daemonai wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BRP DW reduces the damage of Jabs by 55% with one button press. If you aren't passed out over your keyboard that backbar 2pc set alone should ensure you never die to a Templar in a 1v1.

The counter to an OP ability is an OP weapon set. Makes sense

Or just move out of the way, cc, and counter burst like most of us figured out years ago.

Daemonai

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

Xvorg

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

As a DK, I can say Warmth is quite strong

Daemonai

Xvorg wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

As a DK, I can say Warmth is quite strong

Warmth is comparable to Burning Light? In what way?

EtTuBrutus

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

My point was more that he's including a passive, while not on others. Whether it's about damage or not. In a vacuum including all the passives, lots of skills are super loaded. Jabs and sweeps just happen to be much more damage oriented. I mean, think of how good netch sounds. But it doesn't kill ppl so it's not brought up.

Xvorg

Daemonai wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

As a DK, I can say Warmth is quite strong

Warmth is comparable to Burning Light? In what way?

perma snare.

not only raw dmg kills

Daemonai

Xvorg wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

As a DK, I can say Warmth is quite strong

Warmth is comparable to Burning Light? In what way?

perma snare.

not only raw dmg kills

Sure, but I don't see the comparison.

30% snare (which is already quite ubiquitous) vs additional scaling, crittable damage on already highly damaging abilities.

30% snare is actually on the lower end of snare potency, and better sources can be attained in many different ways. However, Burning Light is one of a kind, that is, since Implosion was deleted.
-

Daemonai

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

What other passive is comparable to Burning Light? The only passive comparable, Implosion, was deleted for being OP.
-

My point was more that he's including a passive, while not on others. Whether it's about damage or not. In a vacuum including all the passives, lots of skills are super loaded. Jabs and sweeps just happen to be much more damage oriented. I mean, think of how good netch sounds. But it doesn't kill ppl so it's not brought up.

You can prove your point by posting other class spammables with their passives and compare them to Jabs with its passives.

Somehow I think Jabs would still win out, and by a large margin.

Also, the entire purpose of spammables is to do damage, so when you have a passive that is buffing a spammable to be head and shoulders better than the next best spammable, it's absolutely relevant to include it in a comparison with other class spammables.

No other class has a Burning Light equivalent so of course none can be included in the comparison.

ecru

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

Based on the fact that you think Flurry has a higher tooltip than Jabs, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you have absolutely no idea what's actually going on in ESO at any given time.

Jabbs_Giggity

ecru wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

Based on the fact that you think Flurry has a higher tooltip than Jabs, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you have absolutely no idea what's actually going on in ESO at any given time.

Assuming is what most people seem to do on this forum, hence the abundance of cries for nerfs when they can't competitively contend... your comment is both vague and baiting. However, you are correct that jabs has a higher tooltip than flurry by a small margin where flurry can make up for it with the. 4 seconds less time needed to channel. Again this is on paper. In practice both skills are affected by marginally more factors than any other spammable.

MartiniDaniels

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

So much meaning in those words!! I'm not trying to flatter you, but all your posts are very smart and constructive. It was like it was in my head, but I couldn't express it. This is called perfect class spam ability.This ability allows you to free yourself from the stereotypes of weaving (dizzy-execution) and as a bonus frees one slot. This weave allows you to move gracefully among the template builds in the battle. This is what other classes and their spammable should strive for, only with its own identity. They also need synegria with the rest of their own abilities, so that the weaving could have its own direction as in the case of the Templar.

Thanks! And that's why I am strongly against jabs nerf. Stamplar is so much fun to play and build now because jabs allow certain freedom, now ZOS needs to do the same to other classes (first of all to stamDK, stamsorc and stamcro)

Iskiab

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

So much meaning in those words!! I'm not trying to flatter you, but all your posts are very smart and constructive. It was like it was in my head, but I couldn't express it. This is called perfect class spam ability.This ability allows you to free yourself from the stereotypes of weaving (dizzy-execution) and as a bonus frees one slot. This weave allows you to move gracefully among the template builds in the battle. This is what other classes and their spammable should strive for, only with its own identity. They also need synegria with the rest of their own abilities, so that the weaving could have its own direction as in the case of the Templar.

Thanks! And that's why I am strongly against jabs nerf. Stamplar is so much fun to play and build now because jabs allow certain freedom, now ZOS needs to do the same to other classes (first of all to stamDK, stamsorc and stamcro)

I think the class that needs the most immediate attention is magblade. You can be competitive with any other spec really, there’s only a small difference. The difference between magblade and other mag classes is huge.

MartiniDaniels

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

So much meaning in those words!! I'm not trying to flatter you, but all your posts are very smart and constructive. It was like it was in my head, but I couldn't express it. This is called perfect class spam ability.This ability allows you to free yourself from the stereotypes of weaving (dizzy-execution) and as a bonus frees one slot. This weave allows you to move gracefully among the template builds in the battle. This is what other classes and their spammable should strive for, only with its own identity. They also need synegria with the rest of their own abilities, so that the weaving could have its own direction as in the case of the Templar.

Thanks! And that's why I am strongly against jabs nerf. Stamplar is so much fun to play and build now because jabs allow certain freedom, now ZOS needs to do the same to other classes (first of all to stamDK, stamsorc and stamcro)

I think the class that needs the most immediate attention is magblade. You can be competitive with any other spec really, there’s only a small difference. The difference between magblade and other mag classes is huge.

Well, I only play stamina last patches, so I don't know how magicka is now. From an "opponent" side, I feel like magicka have less damage then stamina, but have access to those crazy burst heals... maybe magblade is weaker because there is no burst heal. But magblades are bombers and can be pretty good glass cannon gankers.. and they have perma cloak. And shade. Detection pots or not, shade -> cloak and you'll never find magblade. While what stamDK, stamsorc and stamcro have? Leap, minor expedition and buggy blastbones? Of course they all have dizzy-onslaught-executioner, but that is not class abilities.

ecru

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

Based on the fact that you think Flurry has a higher tooltip than Jabs, I'm gonna go ahead and assume you have absolutely no idea what's actually going on in ESO at any given time.

Assuming is what most people seem to do on this forum, hence the abundance of cries for nerfs when they can't competitively contend... your comment is both vague and baiting. However, you are correct that jabs has a higher tooltip than flurry by a small margin where flurry can make up for it with the. 4 seconds less time needed to channel. Again this is on paper. In practice both skills are affected by marginally more factors than any other spammable.

It's not a small margin, it's 31.4%. Anyone can compare base damage of abilities and figure out how much damage abilities do. And as far as jabs vs flurry goes, if you're good, you can weave Jabs ~95% as fast (even in pvp) as an instant ability. On a dummy I can sustain 0.9 LA/s with jabs compared to .93-.94 with an instant ability. Unfortunately, Flurry doesn't proc burning light

As for assuming things, we should talk about that too. If you're using the build calculator on UESP to compare the damage of Flurry, or going by the tooltip description, don't, because it's wrong. In the build calculator the last hit of Flurry is shown as a 300% increase over the damage of the first 4 attacks, but the description in game of Flurry is actually incorrect and misleading. The last hit is not a 300% increase of the damage of the initial 4 hits, but three times as much as the initial hit (a 200% increase over the initial hit, or 300% of the initial hit). For example, if the initial attack shows 1,000, you would expect 1,000*4 (4,000), and then a final hit of 4,000 (a 300% increase), but in game the damage of the final hit is only 3,000. I'm guessing because of this, people assume it's better than it is, and this is a good example of why you should test things yourself, rather than rely too much on ZOS's descriptions or whatever the build calculator says. The tooltip should actually say, "300% of the initial damage", rather than "300% more".

As for Flurry, I used it in my build after it's initial buff (by about 20% IIRC?) last year on my stamdk, even as certain people were continually insistent that it was a terrible ability (it wasn't, it's still quite good due to the dual wield passives). It's not so great now compared to Stonefist, but after it's first buff it was quite good, especially with Corrosive. I'm fully aware of all of the issues that come with channeled abilities in pvp, but for the most part Flurry worked 100% of the time as you'd expect in BGs, and I only ever had issues during primetime in Cyrodiil, where everything lags. I suspect Flurry is much worse off than Jabs in that situation though, since it's 5 attacks in 600ms rather than 4 in 1000ms, and with the "typical" ability lag during primetime in Cyrodiil, the server just drops some of the attacks within the channel, so in your combat log you only see a 3-4 hits out of the 5. I don't have a stamplar, but I do have a magplar, and sweep was always much more forgiving when it came to lag compared to Flurry, but still dropped an attack occasionally.

coletas

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

ok. i know i have made this clear before. but im going to show undisputed evidence.
i used the build editor for this information: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

so. without any modifiers (cp wep dmg etc) i have put together this comparison.

jabs.
cost: 2295
channel time: 1sec
tooltip is 1232
add a burning light (has a 100% probability) makes 1709.
additional effects:
40% snare
aoe damage
morphs(heals/major savagery)

now ill compare to a popular spammabe dizzy swing.

cost: 2700 (2295 with balanced blade passive)
cast time: 0.8sec
tooltip: 976
additional effects:
off balance.

now ill compare the damage to different skills.

creasnt sweep: 847 (with the 60% increase its 1355)
incap: 1314
surprise attack: 821
sub assult: 1146
blastbones: 1272
onslaught: 1438
snipe: 1112

see the blatant difference in damage?

now lets look at a few other points.
it hits multiple times. so. if a player were to dodge an onslaught or incap they would negate all the damage. against japs they could negate 1 jab max. therefore still being hit by 3 jabs. and it costs 4x the stam to block and has 4x the chance to proc sets.
the snare makes it extremely hard to get away. and of course templar has a powerful gapcloser. meaning its very hard to escape.
and not every build has major evasion. magdk, magsorc, magplar etc
the fact that the skill hits harder than a burst ult is ridiculous. and it has all the other effects.
so here is the evidence that this skill is op.
nerf it.

sell your old nb that is beginning to cloak in the same direction and buy a templar

Iskiab

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

So much meaning in those words!! I'm not trying to flatter you, but all your posts are very smart and constructive. It was like it was in my head, but I couldn't express it. This is called perfect class spam ability.This ability allows you to free yourself from the stereotypes of weaving (dizzy-execution) and as a bonus frees one slot. This weave allows you to move gracefully among the template builds in the battle. This is what other classes and their spammable should strive for, only with its own identity. They also need synegria with the rest of their own abilities, so that the weaving could have its own direction as in the case of the Templar.

Thanks! And that's why I am strongly against jabs nerf. Stamplar is so much fun to play and build now because jabs allow certain freedom, now ZOS needs to do the same to other classes (first of all to stamDK, stamsorc and stamcro)

I think the class that needs the most immediate attention is magblade. You can be competitive with any other spec really, there’s only a small difference. The difference between magblade and other mag classes is huge.

Well, I only play stamina last patches, so I don't know how magicka is now. From an "opponent" side, I feel like magicka have less damage then stamina, but have access to those crazy burst heals... maybe magblade is weaker because there is no burst heal. But magblades are bombers and can be pretty good glass cannon gankers.. and they have perma cloak. And shade. Detection pots or not, shade -> cloak and you'll never find magblade. While what stamDK, stamsorc and stamcro have? Leap, minor expedition and buggy blastbones? Of course they all have dizzy-onslaught-executioner, but that is not class abilities.

Yea, this is probably right. I’m pure mag side so see the opposite side of the coin. For the most part stam does more damage but there are exceptions.

Magblade’s like... imagine trying to only self heal with echoing vigor, not resolving. You could get by in duels with evasion but against more then 1 the healing doesn’t keep up. Then imagine being lower damage unless your Ult is up.

They can get by in duels or 1v1 but that’s about it right now. There are less solo bombers these days because people are building against it so it’s less effective, and in groups magnecro has supplanted them out of their traditional role. You can still magblade in pvp groups, but it’d be like being a MagDK bomber, it works but you’ll always think things might be easier being a Necro.

Grimlok_S

Tooltip damage is one thing, but bear in mind Jabs/Sweep is also mitigated by evasion, if you can even land the skill at all in light to moderate lag.

Above all, being a channel, making it significantly more difficult to combo damage.

idk

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

I would just like to clarify to OP as food for thought that tool-tips mean nothing.

I do not have my screenshots, as I am not home currently. However, Jabs (stamina morph) has hit me for the following:
I am playing on StamNB with 20k resistances and all 5 relentless stacks. Shade is not active so no -15% mitigation and Major Evasion is not slotted

Non-CP BG's - 5k (x4 jabs / hits) and 3.4k (x3 jabs / hits)
CP Cyrodiil - 4.4k (x4 jabs / hits) and 2.2k (x2 jabs / hits)
Average jabs landed per channel in recaps was 2.
Burning light average damage is 1.1k, 1.3k (CP, No-CP)

Not quite the 16k the tool-tip claims.

Average DSwing is around 4k non-crit.
Average surprise attack is around 2-4k, but have seen builds hit average of 5-6k from decent players.

So actual ratios of in-game damage versus tool-tip is: 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 for each skill listed respectively.

Magplar Sweeps hits for less; generally by approx. 1-2K overall. In Non-CP no one benefits from the damage increase to off-balance, while in CP most Magplars benefit from this 10% increase in CP Tree because of Sweeps switching to DD - therefore, off-balance on Toppling is irrelevant, other than for a Stun.

Now, on MY Stamplar I generally do the average:
Non-CP BG's: 2-4K Jabs per channel (higher against less tanky players; maybe 5K-ish for all four jabs connecting [RARE])
CP Cyro: 1-3k Jabs per channel (higher against less tanky players; maybe 4K-ish for all four jabs connecting [RARE])
Overall I can efficiently land 2-3 Jabs per channel with 1-2 BL procs per THREE full channels
By the way, my Jabs tool-tip is 5.1K fully buffed...PER Jab...so why am I hitting on average say 5K per channel when my tool-tip is an OP disgusting 20.4K un-critted?? Mitigation and hard to land is the answer

Edit for further clarification/context in bold

Very good point a number of us have been trying to make.

Also, good information I hid in the spoilers. As I have said OP is making comparisons in a vacuum by ignoring actual combat information which is why their data is not very valid. You aptly helped supply some of the valid data from two different perspectives.