How overtuned jabs/sweeps really is

ThePhantomThorn

JinxxND wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

jabs doesnt just deal more damage than our spammable/ it deals more than our main ult.

idk wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

ok. im confused.
are you saying jabs doesn't deal more damage in real pvp?

things that would negate it.
major evasion 25% (on jab not burning light) still deals more damage than onslaught.
dodge. if onslaught is dodged then it hist for 0 damage. as i said before, its impossible to dodge all hits of jabs.
avoiding. templar has a huge aoe 30% snare. and a 40% from jabs. and a stunning gap closer. its rather hard to not get hit.

or are you saying that my data is incorrect?
test it yourself.

WreckfulAbandon

Koensol wrote: »

L2Math, because thats not how damage reduction works. If it worked like that, you could easily have 100% dmg reduction in mistform, which is impossible. Dmg reduction works multiplicatively, not additively. So you can stop spreading your biased misinformation.

It gives Major Protection and Major Evasion. So if we can say Major Protection is 30% dmg redux and Minor is 8% redux, yes. BRP DW gives 55% redux. Yes, it's multiplicative. But please feel free to educate the forums on why a 2p back bar set providing easy uptime of Major Protection is balanced. To say nothing of the combo with Major Evasion.

Davadin

while i agree jabs need a nerf because it really is too high damage and u dont need to weave it, just spam it and even in Cyro, u can still drill people down fairly easily...

....but, just wanna add:

Fawn4287 wrote: »

,
1. Difficult to weave and a 1 second channel

this.

sure u can break LOS or walk through them or whatever, which in theory is easy, but in the heat of battle it's often very hard to counter jabs...

except,

1 second channel

that.

you see someone with a spear of light? interrupt them. even if you missed one, interrupt them again because 9 out of 10 'plars will want to spam this skill, guaranteed., so you'll at least interupt the next one.

ThePhantomThorn

Davadin wrote: »

while i agree jabs need a nerf because it really is too high damage and u dont need to weave it, just spam it and even in Cyro, u can still drill people down fairly easily...

....but, just wanna add:

Fawn4287 wrote: »

,
1. Difficult to weave and a 1 second channel

this.

sure u can break LOS or walk through them or whatever, which in theory is easy, but in the heat of battle it's often very hard to counter jabs...

except,

1 second channel

that.

you see someone with a spear of light? interrupt them. even if you missed one, interrupt them again because 9 out of 10 'plars will want to spam this skill, guaranteed., so you'll at least interupt the next one.

you cant interrupt it...

Salix_alba

Ughh tldr + math

Its a button that kills people I see nothing wrong with it

technohic

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

Ey its because you can be weirdly tanky without actually attempting to be tanky.

Plus its direct dmg now and with dots nerfed you can run 6k wpn dmg + and go all in on direct dmg cp. Extra wpn dmg + the extra 10%~ from saving on thaum helps.

I mean i've shredded squishy people on mine but also hit people for basically nothing.

Ahhh yeah I forgot about the change to direct damage.

Here lies the answer, the ability became much more powerful when it became pure direct damage. That's why the guys like to put Jabs under Onslaught. 100% Direct damage also hits harder in noCP than 50/50 direct damage/DoT.

Onslaught worked on jabs before because it also works on channels.

OrderoftheDarkness

technohic wrote: »

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

Ey its because you can be weirdly tanky without actually attempting to be tanky.

Plus its direct dmg now and with dots nerfed you can run 6k wpn dmg + and go all in on direct dmg cp. Extra wpn dmg + the extra 10%~ from saving on thaum helps.

I mean i've shredded squishy people on mine but also hit people for basically nothing.

Ahhh yeah I forgot about the change to direct damage.

Here lies the answer, the ability became much more powerful when it became pure direct damage. That's why the guys like to put Jabs under Onslaught. 100% Direct damage also hits harder in noCP than 50/50 direct damage/DoT.

Onslaught worked on jabs before because it also works on channels.

The channel is not related to my post. Old jabs 50% direct damage/50% DoT. New jabs 100% direct damage. If we use the onslaught, do you think it's better to deal full damage or hybrid damage in a game where the hybrid mechanics are poorly developed? This is not Retro paladin or Death Knight from WoW, although the competent hybrid mechanics were only in Lich King.

technohic

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

jabs doesnt just deal more damage than our spammable/ it deals more than our main ult.

idk wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

ok. im confused.
are you saying jabs doesn't deal more damage in real pvp?

things that would negate it.
major evasion 25% (on jab not burning light) still deals more damage than onslaught.
dodge. if onslaught is dodged then it hist for 0 damage. as i said before, its impossible to dodge all hits of jabs.
avoiding. templar has a huge aoe 30% snare. and a 40% from jabs. and a stunning gap closer. its rather hard to not get hit.

or are you saying that my data is incorrect?
test it yourself.

Hmm my Jabs on my templar if I hit all, are 16k tooltip. My incap on my NB is 18.5k I can garauntee a crit on the incap with 80% multiplier. I have less than 50% chance on jabs but do have an 8% multiplier so jabs going to be what? 22800 assuming half crit, while my incap is going to really be 33000? I mean; Im looking at my builds that I actually use because I build differently for both so full picture considered. Not even considering vulnerability, which probably evens out with off balance, or that I can use camo hunter and easily get minor berserk.

Guess my point being; taking just the unmodified tooltips or even builds that are not used (I cant imagine trying to run my templar as offensive as my NB without cloak) is really just taking everything out of context.

idk

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

jabs doesnt just deal more damage than our spammable/ it deals more than our main ult.

idk wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

ok. im confused.
are you saying jabs doesn't deal more damage in real pvp?

things that would negate it.
major evasion 25% (on jab not burning light) still deals more damage than onslaught.
dodge. if onslaught is dodged then it hist for 0 damage. as i said before, its impossible to dodge all hits of jabs.
avoiding. templar has a huge aoe 30% snare. and a 40% from jabs. and a stunning gap closer. its rather hard to not get hit.

or are you saying that my data is incorrect?
test it yourself.

I did not say anything about the damage jabs does let alone PvP. I have said very clearly all you done is toss numbers around in a vacuum making them meaningless.

I am not saying your data is incorrect. Heck, you read it off a tooltip and you are favoring certain skills you are comparing it to. Straight off the page of a politician playbook.

The proof of what I say is you are ignoring what is inconvenient to your attempt at argument. The most obvious case is you passed over the comments about rapid strikes which it's channel makes it more comparable than anything you mentioned.

In the end I am not saying jabs is OP or not. Zos is still in the middle of implementing their new vision for combat and we have a mess in the meantime. I am saying you are cherry picking skills for comparison and your limited analysis is void of anything other than what is on the tooltips.

Rhaegar75

Reverb wrote: »

Your “indisputable evidence” is a weird mix of class and weapon skills and ultimates. Your comparisons aren’t on par with one another.

A brief analysis the recent posts on this forum suggests that we are dealing with a frustrated NB who has developed an obsession about Templars....😩

I recommend more L2P time and less time writing nerf threads 😉

ThePhantomThorn

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

Your “indisputable evidence” is a weird mix of class and weapon skills and ultimates. Your comparisons aren’t on par with one another.

A brief analysis the recent posts on this forum suggests that we are dealing with a frustrated NB who has developed an obsession about Templars....😩

I recommend more L2P time and less time writing nerf threads 😉

hello templar main

ThePhantomThorn

technohic wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

jabs doesnt just deal more damage than our spammable/ it deals more than our main ult.

idk wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

ok. im confused.
are you saying jabs doesn't deal more damage in real pvp?

things that would negate it.
major evasion 25% (on jab not burning light) still deals more damage than onslaught.
dodge. if onslaught is dodged then it hist for 0 damage. as i said before, its impossible to dodge all hits of jabs.
avoiding. templar has a huge aoe 30% snare. and a 40% from jabs. and a stunning gap closer. its rather hard to not get hit.

or are you saying that my data is incorrect?
test it yourself.

Hmm my Jabs on my templar if I hit all, are 16k tooltip. My incap on my NB is 18.5k I can garauntee a crit on the incap with 80% multiplier. I have less than 50% chance on jabs but do have an 8% multiplier so jabs going to be what? 22800 assuming half crit, while my incap is going to really be 33000? I mean; Im looking at my builds that I actually use because I build differently for both so full picture considered. Not even considering vulnerability, which probably evens out with off balance, or that I can use camo hunter and easily get minor berserk.

Guess my point being; taking just the unmodified tooltips or even builds that are not used (I cant imagine trying to run my templar as offensive as my NB without cloak) is really just taking everything out of context.

include a burning light and on the same setup jabs would hit much higher

Koensol

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

L2Math, because thats not how damage reduction works. If it worked like that, you could easily have 100% dmg reduction in mistform, which is impossible. Dmg reduction works multiplicatively, not additively. So you can stop spreading your biased misinformation.

It gives Major Protection and Major Evasion. So if we can say Major Protection is 30% dmg redux and Minor is 8% redux, yes. BRP DW gives 55% redux. Yes, it's multiplicative. But please feel free to educate the forums on why a 2p back bar set providing easy uptime of Major Protection is balanced. To say nothing of the combo with Major Evasion.

Major protection is 30%, yes. And major evasion is 25%. Still, that doesn't mean its a 55% damage reduction. That is what it would be if damage reduction worked additively. Or do you also think mistform 75% plus major protection 30% is a 105% damage reduction? If you do, I'm not sure if you know what multiplicative means.

Also, im not saying it is balanced at all. Just commenting on your 55% comment, which is false.

WreckfulAbandon

Koensol wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

L2Math, because thats not how damage reduction works. If it worked like that, you could easily have 100% dmg reduction in mistform, which is impossible. Dmg reduction works multiplicatively, not additively. So you can stop spreading your biased misinformation.

It gives Major Protection and Major Evasion. So if we can say Major Protection is 30% dmg redux and Minor is 8% redux, yes. BRP DW gives 55% redux. Yes, it's multiplicative. But please feel free to educate the forums on why a 2p back bar set providing easy uptime of Major Protection is balanced. To say nothing of the combo with Major Evasion.

Major protection is 30%, yes. And major evasion is 25%. Still, that doesn't mean its a 55% damage reduction. That is what it would be if damage reduction worked additively. Or do you also think mistform 75% plus major protection 30% is a 105% damage reduction? If you do, I'm not sure if you know what multiplicative means.

Also, im not saying it is balanced at all. Just commenting on your 55% comment, which is false.

Lol I'll try again. I know how it's calculated with diminishing returns on each source. My issue is that it's huge mitigation from pressing 1 button on a back bar 2pc set. Run 3 dmg sets and BRP DW and your mitigation against Jabs is still insanely high.

BaiterOfZergs

I knew the complaints were going to eventually happen when they changed the function of jabs, that’s what happens when you make one style the go to style. It’s not that it’s “stronger” no one is building into dots anymore so all their points are directed elsewhere. I said this when they originally made the change.

“ Yeah while reducing the amount of playstyles available, but you guys wonder why everyone uses the same thing. Every class should be about flexibility, not pigeonholing into the same style of play. So you’re just as responsible as the devs are when it comes to homogenization. They could’ve simply left sweeps/jabs function alone. Now all it promotes is a 100 to 0 burst gameplay, which is more healthy for the game I guess? Don’t be surprised when people finally figure out more cancerous builds and everyone is getting one banged.”

Hexquisite

I think that you need to look at the big picture.

I play a few classes, and each class is a perfect counter to another class, but not to all classes.

All classes have spammables, but not all are damage spammables, though many of the class spammables help a class keep the pressure /dps up to kill, or help a group keep the pressure up and kill. You can't really look at just skills, you have to look at rotation, and some classes have a spammable buff that allow them to keep the pressure on longer. Some people also have matched their skill to armor sets and did quite a bit of theory crafting. New Moon is an awesome set.

Magplar was my main until a couple months ago, and yes I was a nightblade killer--but most my kills came from Crushing Shock...because almost all NB stayed just out of my range even with use of Toppling Charge, and were faster than me...and when they were in range my sweeps were so unpredictable because of lag that I could really only reliably use sweeps against newer NBs, I will tell you that every Templar has a window of vulnerability, you just have to watch.

Stamplars are strong after not being great for a long time, , but we need that, cuz they are the ones that are going to have the majority of the DPS on my defile tank Magden, and other tank builds.

If you are talking 1 v 1s, go to your house and make some rules, like all tournies have.

Iskiab

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think that you need to look at the big picture.

I play a few classes, and each class is a perfect counter to another class, but not to all classes.

All classes have spammables, but not all are damage spammables, though many of the class spammables help a class keep the pressure /dps up to kill, or help a group keep the pressure up and kill. You can't really look at just skills, you have to look at rotation, and some classes have a spammable buff that allow them to keep the pressure on longer. Some people also have matched their skill to armor sets and did quite a bit of theory crafting. New Moon is an awesome set.

Magplar was my main until a couple months ago, and yes I was a nightblade killer--but most my kills came from Crushing Shock...because almost all NB stayed just out of my range even with use of Toppling Charge, and were faster than me...and when they were in range my sweeps were so unpredictable because of lag that I could really only reliably use sweeps against newer NBs, I will tell you that every Templar has a window of vulnerability, you just have to watch.

Stamplars are strong after not being great for a long time, , but we need that, cuz they are the ones that are going to have the majority of the DPS on my defile tank Magden, and other tank builds.

If you are talking 1 v 1s, go to your house and make some rules, like all tournies have.

What’s the counter class to magsorc? I’m not asking as a passive aggressive nerf request, I’ve noticed something similar between classes but they seem to be a class without a counter.

Depending on the build and player you can still kill one, but I don’t see an inherent class weakness.

Joy_Division

Do you have anything else better to do than ask ZOS to buff your favorite class while nerfing everyone else?

ThePhantomThorn

Joy_Division wrote: »

Do you have anything else better to do than ask ZOS to buff your favorite class while nerfing everyone else?

mmmmmm
no

tplink3r1

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

jabs doesnt just deal more damage than our spammable/ it deals more than our main ult.

idk wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

ok. im confused.
are you saying jabs doesn't deal more damage in real pvp?

things that would negate it.
major evasion 25% (on jab not burning light) still deals more damage than onslaught.
dodge. if onslaught is dodged then it hist for 0 damage. as i said before, its impossible to dodge all hits of jabs.
avoiding. templar has a huge aoe 30% snare. and a 40% from jabs. and a stunning gap closer. its rather hard to not get hit.

or are you saying that my data is incorrect?
test it yourself.

This "main ult" you are referring to is also a major target of critics since the game was released due to how underwhelming it is.

Xvorg

Iskiab wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think that you need to look at the big picture.

I play a few classes, and each class is a perfect counter to another class, but not to all classes.

All classes have spammables, but not all are damage spammables, though many of the class spammables help a class keep the pressure /dps up to kill, or help a group keep the pressure up and kill. You can't really look at just skills, you have to look at rotation, and some classes have a spammable buff that allow them to keep the pressure on longer. Some people also have matched their skill to armor sets and did quite a bit of theory crafting. New Moon is an awesome set.

Magplar was my main until a couple months ago, and yes I was a nightblade killer--but most my kills came from Crushing Shock...because almost all NB stayed just out of my range even with use of Toppling Charge, and were faster than me...and when they were in range my sweeps were so unpredictable because of lag that I could really only reliably use sweeps against newer NBs, I will tell you that every Templar has a window of vulnerability, you just have to watch.

Stamplars are strong after not being great for a long time, , but we need that, cuz they are the ones that are going to have the majority of the DPS on my defile tank Magden, and other tank builds.

If you are talking 1 v 1s, go to your house and make some rules, like all tournies have.

What’s the counter class to magsorc? I’m not asking as a passive aggressive nerf request, I’ve noticed something similar between classes but they seem to be a class without a counter.

Depending on the build and player you can still kill one, but I don’t see an inherent class weakness.

It used to be mDK with wings and strong DoTs that forced Magsorc to spam shield casting. It also countered magblades that played similar to sorcs .

Now killing mDKs as a magsorc is quite easy, you just have to repeat the rotation 3 or 4 times. You can still kill sorcs as a DK, but it is a pain in the buttocks

Royaji

Iskiab wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think that you need to look at the big picture.

I play a few classes, and each class is a perfect counter to another class, but not to all classes.

All classes have spammables, but not all are damage spammables, though many of the class spammables help a class keep the pressure /dps up to kill, or help a group keep the pressure up and kill. You can't really look at just skills, you have to look at rotation, and some classes have a spammable buff that allow them to keep the pressure on longer. Some people also have matched their skill to armor sets and did quite a bit of theory crafting. New Moon is an awesome set.

Magplar was my main until a couple months ago, and yes I was a nightblade killer--but most my kills came from Crushing Shock...because almost all NB stayed just out of my range even with use of Toppling Charge, and were faster than me...and when they were in range my sweeps were so unpredictable because of lag that I could really only reliably use sweeps against newer NBs, I will tell you that every Templar has a window of vulnerability, you just have to watch.

Stamplars are strong after not being great for a long time, , but we need that, cuz they are the ones that are going to have the majority of the DPS on my defile tank Magden, and other tank builds.

If you are talking 1 v 1s, go to your house and make some rules, like all tournies have.

What’s the counter class to magsorc? I’m not asking as a passive aggressive nerf request, I’ve noticed something similar between classes but they seem to be a class without a counter.

Depending on the build and player you can still kill one, but I don’t see an inherent class weakness.

DK with win... Oh, yeah.

MurderMostFoul

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

burning light (has a 100% probability)

Hehe, this made me chuckle.

Royaji

Joy_Division wrote: »

Do you have anything else better to do than ask ZOS to buff your favorite class while nerfing everyone else?

All classes have unique identity. This applies to their players' reaction to being at the bottom of the totem poll this patch.

NBs create nerf threads.
Sorcs create buff threads.
Templars organize a funeral for their character in the backyard and quit the game.
DKs just remember the good old 1.6 times.
Wardens just stare into the distance with a blank look because ZOS won't listen anyway.
And necros just buy the next OP class.

Let him be a proper NB main!

Xvorg

Royaji wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Do you have anything else better to do than ask ZOS to buff your favorite class while nerfing everyone else?

All classes have unique identity. This applies to their players' reaction to being at the bottom of the totem poll this patch.

NBs create nerf threads.
Sorcs create buff threads.
Templars organize a funeral for their character in the backyard and quit the game.
DKs just remember the good old 1.6 times.
Wardens just stare into the distance with a blank look because ZOS won't listen anyway.
And necros just buy the next OP class.

Let him be a proper NB main!

Aren't necros those who comment on posts done years ago?

ecru

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Then consider that each channel of Jabs, on average, procs burning light at least once. Jabs is a dumb skill.

One channel of jabs and a burning light proc is 35% more damage than Blastbones. One channel of jabs and two burning light procs is 74% more damage than Blastbones. Jabs is a dumb skill.

MurderMostFoul

ecru wrote: »

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Jabs is a dumb skill.

Both shalks and blastbones can hit at the same time as other skills, adding to their burst potential, vs jabs which has its damage spread over a second. Also, the chance of getting 2 burning lights in one cast of jabs is 6.25%.

EtTuBrutus

That's not hows probability works. Go to school.

MurderMostFoul

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

That's not hows probability works. Go to school.

@EtTuBrutus Are you talking to me?

EtTuBrutus

Also add on that with jabs and sweeps you might only got with 1/4th off the damage compared to ANY other skill you mentioned.

Glad you don't balance games, nothing would be fun.