How overtuned jabs/sweeps really is

ThePhantomThorn

ok. i know i have made this clear before. but im going to show undisputed evidence.
i used the build editor for this information: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

so. without any modifiers (cp wep dmg etc) i have put together this comparison.

jabs.
cost: 2295
channel time: 1sec
tooltip is 1232
add a burning light (has a 100% probability) makes 1709.
additional effects:
40% snare
aoe damage
morphs(heals/major savagery)

now ill compare to a popular spammabe dizzy swing.

cost: 2700 (2295 with balanced blade passive)
cast time: 0.8sec
tooltip: 976
additional effects:
off balance.

now ill compare the damage to different skills.

creasnt sweep: 847 (with the 60% increase its 1355)
incap: 1314
surprise attack: 821
sub assult: 1146
blastbones: 1272
onslaught: 1438
snipe: 1112

see the blatant difference in damage?

now lets look at a few other points.
it hits multiple times. so. if a player were to dodge an onslaught or incap they would negate all the damage. against japs they could negate 1 jab max. therefore still being hit by 3 jabs. and it costs 4x the stam to block and has 4x the chance to proc sets.
the snare makes it extremely hard to get away. and of course templar has a powerful gapcloser. meaning its very hard to escape.
and not every build has major evasion. magdk, magsorc, magplar etc
the fact that the skill hits harder than a burst ult is ridiculous. and it has all the other effects.
so here is the evidence that this skill is op.
nerf it.

Akinos

How many more nerf threads you going to make?

BaiterOfZergs

Here we go again

OrderoftheDarkness

TS fix the cost of Dizzy, it costs 2295 because -15%.

ThePhantomThorn

OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »

TS fix the cost of Dizzy, it costs 2295 because -15%.

done. i had the passive on the editor but it didnt show up. idk why.

Reverb

Your “indisputable evidence” is a weird mix of class and weapon skills and ultimates. Your comparisons aren’t on par with one another.

OrderoftheDarkness

I certainly understand how jabs differs from other class spammable, instead of nerf I would like to see how other class spam ability become a level of jabs, only with its own character and identity. In the case of Templar, this makes the class stand out by its identity, instead of the other 80-90% who spams Dizzy. Most likely you will not meet the Templar who took Dizzy instead of Jabs or we won't meet an mDK that will abandon Molten Whip in favor of another spammable, etc..
My Venom skull is much worse than Dizzy, there is no point in comparing it with jabs at all.
In principle, I just because of this no longer play this game, because we do not create builds - it's an illusion, the developers choose for us what will be stronger in the X patch.

Fawn4287

People making these threads continually neglect a few key problems with jabs,
1. Difficult to weave and a 1 second channel
2. Its a free aimed channeled ability making it much more challenging to use compared to other spammables that have aim assist
3. Your movement speed is limited whilst channeling the ability
4. It takes a direct nerf from major evasion
5. Lag (which is so prevalent in this game you have to consider it as a component in most scenarios) makes jabs near impossible to land consistently in cyrodil and busy areas


Line of sight, expedition and major evasion are all incredibly effective counters to jabs, whilst attempting to facetank is never a good option.

Hotdog_23

Class skills. Taken from ESO skillbook. No 2nd effects listed or how it is affected by passives just raw numbers. All stamina morphs since that seems to be the focus here.

DK - Stone Giant 911 physical damage, 15-meter range. Cast time instant.
Templar - Jabs: 341x4 = 1364 physical damage if all four hit, 8-meter range. Cast time 1 second channel
Necros - Venom skull: 847 poison damage, 28-meter range. Cast time instant.
Sorc– No class spammable. The true crime here.
NB – Surprise attack – 911 physical damage, 5-meter range. Cast time instant.
Warden – Cutting dive – 820 physical damage, 28-meter range. Cast time instant.

Weapon skill lines also taken from same website.

Dizzy Swing/Wrecking Blow – 1082 physical damage, 7-meter range. Cast time 0.8 seconds.
Deep Lash – 705 physical damage, 6-meter range 6-meter radius. Cast time instant.
Power Bash – 911 physical damage, 5-meter range Cast time instant.
Rapid Strikes – 1400 physical damage if I did my math right and all 5 hits land, 7-meter range, Cast time 0.6 seconds.
Shrouded Daggers – 705 physical damage, 22-meters, 8-meters radius. Cast time instant.
Lethal Arrow- 1233 poison damage, 35-meter range, Cast time 1 second.
Focused Aim – 1233 physical damage, 40-meter range, Cast time 1 second.

Jabs is the 2nd strongest here with rapid strikes the strongest. Ironically both have a cast time. The reason they have higher damage is because they have a cast time thus harder to light attack weave and cancel. The real problem here is the no class Socr stamina skill, although Bound Armaments is a nice addition.

OrderoftheDarkness

This is all fine, but the book does not write the speed of movement of ranged abilities. For example, Snipe having Cast time 1 second, hits the target instantly unlike Cutting dive or Venom skull. Stam sorc is positioned as a class of pure physical damage, now it has the advantage of spam Dizzy + Bound Armaments as a bonus.

Bam_Bam

L2P

Bam_Bam

Reverb wrote: »

Your “indisputable evidence” is a weird mix of class and weapon skills and ultimates. Your comparisons aren’t on par with one another.

so much this!

TheBonesXXX

Not too sure if I agree with the comparisons, the only two skills comparable to Jabs are rapid strikes and Scythe.

If ZOS follows it's overloaded skill trend, Jabs fits the criteria.

OrderoftheDarkness

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Not too sure if I agree with the comparisons, the only two skills comparable to Jabs are rapid strikes and Scythe.

If ZOS follows it's overloaded skill trend, Jabs fits the criteria.

Look at the cost of abilities. Scythe is an analog Cleave, but Deep Slash and Whirling Blade works much better.

leepalmer95

Can't really advocate a nerf for jabs when major evasion exists.

Its hits super had against non evasion targets I guess, well as hard as can in this stupid overheal meta.

But doesn't hit even the squishy targets with major evasion for anything.

If anything i'd rather them reduce major evasion to like 10-15% (nerf or get rid of minor altogether).
Reduce jabs by a similar amount.


Because currently my jabs on my stamplar has a 5.5k tooltip without burning light. Thats 22k on a skill with a 8k proc per use. That hits as many times per second as any other skill.


But at the same time this is all rather pointless with the fact everyone has 30k hp now and now one dies.

Solariken

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

ThePhantomThorn

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

i think people are just building higher damage this patch. last patch they were running brass etc.

leepalmer95

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

Ey its because you can be weirdly tanky without actually attempting to be tanky.

Plus its direct dmg now and with dots nerfed you can run 6k wpn dmg + and go all in on direct dmg cp. Extra wpn dmg + the extra 10%~ from saving on thaum helps.

I mean i've shredded squishy people on mine but also hit people for basically nothing.

Solariken

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

Ey its because you can be weirdly tanky without actually attempting to be tanky.

Plus its direct dmg now and with dots nerfed you can run 6k wpn dmg + and go all in on direct dmg cp. Extra wpn dmg + the extra 10%~ from saving on thaum helps.

I mean i've shredded squishy people on mine but also hit people for basically nothing.

Ahhh yeah I forgot about the change to direct damage. CP PvP is such disgusting cancer.

OrderoftheDarkness

Solariken wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

Ey its because you can be weirdly tanky without actually attempting to be tanky.

Plus its direct dmg now and with dots nerfed you can run 6k wpn dmg + and go all in on direct dmg cp. Extra wpn dmg + the extra 10%~ from saving on thaum helps.

I mean i've shredded squishy people on mine but also hit people for basically nothing.

Ahhh yeah I forgot about the change to direct damage.

Here lies the answer, the ability became much more powerful when it became pure direct damage. That's why the guys like to put Jabs under Onslaught. 100% Direct damage also hits harder in noCP than 50/50 direct damage/DoT.

WreckfulAbandon

BRP DW reduces the damage of Jabs by 55% with one button press. If you aren't passed out over your keyboard that backbar 2pc set alone should ensure you never die to a Templar in a 1v1.

JinxxND

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

CompM4s

1. Major evasion
2. Slow while channel
3. Easy to miss
4. Bad weaves

idk

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

OrderoftheDarkness

If we talk about BRP DW they also work best for Templar with its cleansing and healing. Moreover, he will use much more pressure than any other. In General, the balance around BRP is generally complete nonsense, to give easy access to Major Protection.... When developers understand that need nerf BRP DW and its easy access to Major protection, the Templar will cease to be such a problem. This glass build having a large damage adds up to a 38% damage reduction. Without Major protection, it will be called high risk high reward, then the guys will start sacrificing damage.
I don't think you had any strong problems with Templar that were without BRP DW. Without major protection, such builds would simply melt away, because people would have to go into protection more often and use jabs less

ThePhantomThorn

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

look at the damage numbers. it deals more than onslaught. and major evasion exists... but. a - not every build has it. b - it still deals more damage than onslaught (tho close)

the fact is a skill that is spammable should not deal that high damage damage.
and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument. because. incap. onslaught. and dizzy all have a cast times. they are easy to miss. and jabs still does more damage. and the snare makes it much easier to hit.


the fact is its op. i have shown that.
if you think its fine... you main templar.
tell me. would you ever use dizzy over jabs? no? why? because its weaker? yeah.
if you do main templar add up your jab tooltip.
on my nb i have a 17k incap, a 20k bow, and a 11k surprise attack.
compare damage of the HEALER class to the DAMAGE class.

Joinovikova

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

Iskiab

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I never thought jabs was too OP before, but this patch I've been getting shredded by stamplars, often seeing jabs for 10k+ against my stamblade in CP PvP WITH Shuffle. New Moon Acolyte is the only real difference I can think of, but I wouldn't think that alone would be responsible for the huge spike in power. : /

Ey its because you can be weirdly tanky without actually attempting to be tanky.

Plus its direct dmg now and with dots nerfed you can run 6k wpn dmg + and go all in on direct dmg cp. Extra wpn dmg + the extra 10%~ from saving on thaum helps.

I mean i've shredded squishy people on mine but also hit people for basically nothing.

I think this is the reason too. Primary stats are more important than ever.

NMA lets people build more glassy and use more heals to hit hard and be tanky. The Templars who’re a little slow to adjust are building too tanky and not hitting hard or healing enough, and wondering what all the fuss is about.

NMA and back bar potatoes is amazing on a templar.

idk

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

JinxxND

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

Koensol

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BRP DW reduces the damage of Jabs by 55% with one button press. If you aren't passed out over your keyboard that backbar 2pc set alone should ensure you never die to a Templar in a 1v1.

L2Math, because thats not how damage reduction works. If it worked like that, you could easily have 100% dmg reduction in mistform, which is impossible. Dmg reduction works multiplicatively, not additively. So you can stop spreading your biased misinformation.