How overtuned jabs/sweeps really is

EtTuBrutus

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

ecru

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Jabs is a dumb skill.

Both shalks and blastbones can hit at the same time as other skills, adding to their burst potential, vs jabs which has its damage spread over a second. Also, the chance of getting 2 burning lights in one cast of jabs is 6.25%.

The purpose of comparing jabs to blastbones/shalks is to give people reading the thread an idea of how much damage the channel deals compared to other abilities that they're familiar with. Burning light procs reliably enough that it's ~25% of a parse of consecutive channels of jabs, so it's reasonable to say that on average a channel of jabs will do 120-125% of it's tooltip damage due to procs, or roughly 20% more damage per channel than blastbones/shalks. The point is the damage. 120-125% of it's tooltip damage, for comparison to another ability, is ~40% more damage than wrecking blow.

idk

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Do you have anything else better to do than ask ZOS to buff your favorite class while nerfing everyone else?

mmmmmm
no

This really says it all. Thx Joy for posting the related SS.

MurderMostFoul

ecru wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Jabs is a dumb skill.

Both shalks and blastbones can hit at the same time as other skills, adding to their burst potential, vs jabs which has its damage spread over a second. Also, the chance of getting 2 burning lights in one cast of jabs is 6.25%.

The purpose of comparing jabs to blastbones/shalks is to give people reading the thread an idea of how much damage the channel deals compared to other abilities that they're familiar with. Burning light procs reliably enough that it's ~25% of a parse of consecutive channels of jabs, so it's reasonable to say that on average a channel of jabs will do 120-125% of it's tooltip damage due to procs, or roughly 20% more damage per channel than blastbones/shalks. The point is the damage. 120-125% of it's tooltip damage, for comparison to another ability, is ~40% more damage than wrecking blow.

PvP =/= "a parse of consecutive channels"

Comparing numbers out of the context of actual PvP usage is not an effective way to consider balance.

Dagoth_Rac

Koensol wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BRP DW reduces the damage of Jabs by 55% with one button press. If you aren't passed out over your keyboard that backbar 2pc set alone should ensure you never die to a Templar in a 1v1.

L2Math, because thats not how damage reduction works. If it worked like that, you could easily have 100% dmg reduction in mistform, which is impossible. Dmg reduction works multiplicatively, not additively. So you can stop spreading your biased misinformation.

47.5% mitigation against Jabs is not that much less than 55%. The exact numbers may be off, but gist of what is being said is still accurate.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Jabs is a dumb skill.

Both shalks and blastbones can hit at the same time as other skills, adding to their burst potential, vs jabs which has its damage spread over a second. Also, the chance of getting 2 burning lights in one cast of jabs is 6.25%.

Isn't there a cooldown on Burning Light? I think that makes it very hard to get 2 procs from one Jab. If the first jab does not proc Burning Light, I think the cooldown will prevent you from getting 2 procs. And if that first jab does proc Burning Light, I think cooldown means you only have a proc chance on fourth jab because the second and third jab will be during cooldown window. Basically, you do not really have 4 chances to proc Burning Light when you cast Biting Jabs. And about 1/3rd of time you get no proc even if all four jabs hit.

ecru

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Jabs is a dumb skill.

Both shalks and blastbones can hit at the same time as other skills, adding to their burst potential, vs jabs which has its damage spread over a second. Also, the chance of getting 2 burning lights in one cast of jabs is 6.25%.

The purpose of comparing jabs to blastbones/shalks is to give people reading the thread an idea of how much damage the channel deals compared to other abilities that they're familiar with. Burning light procs reliably enough that it's ~25% of a parse of consecutive channels of jabs, so it's reasonable to say that on average a channel of jabs will do 120-125% of it's tooltip damage due to procs, or roughly 20% more damage per channel than blastbones/shalks. The point is the damage. 120-125% of it's tooltip damage, for comparison to another ability, is ~40% more damage than wrecking blow.

PvP =/= "a parse of consecutive channels"

Comparing numbers out of the context of actual PvP usage is not an effective way to consider balance.

It's just another way to point out, on average, the extra damage you can expect from burning light after a full channel of jabs. That's it. Don't try to over analyze it because 100 different scenarios can take place in pvp. We all know that, but damage is damage. If burning light somehow doesn't work in pvp, maybe you should have posted that, but from what I understand the proc works just fine. The only scenario I'm presenting here is that a full channel of the ability and a proc that it triggers lands. That's it.

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

You add a passive to the damage with burning light, but fail to mention ANY other passive bonuses gained using other skills.

No other class has a proc like burning light attached to their skills, especially not with a channel that hits 4 times, each allowing a chance for that proc to trigger. I didn't bother to mention everything else that jabs also does, because I'm really only concerned with the damage. Again, the only scenario I'm presenting here is that a full channel of the ability and a proc that it triggers lands.

I know people suggest that jabs was never considered "OP" until like, a month ago or whatever, but that isn't when any major changes took place. The major buff to jabs was when the channel time was reduced to 1000ms from 1100ms, and the 200ms delay after channels was removed. The speed increase was an effective damage increase of 23%. That's when jabs was buffed out of proportion. The ESO community takes awhile to catch on unless changes are obvious, like doubling the damage of dots. When that change went through it was pretty much impossible to convince any Templar that jabs had even been buffed at all, which says a lot about the level of knowledge and discourse here on the forums. Not a single templar main I talked to in game knew either, because very few people even bother to read patch notes.

Hexquisite

Iskiab wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think that you need to look at the big picture.

I play a few classes, and each class is a perfect counter to another class, but not to all classes.

All classes have spammables, but not all are damage spammables, though many of the class spammables help a class keep the pressure /dps up to kill, or help a group keep the pressure up and kill. You can't really look at just skills, you have to look at rotation, and some classes have a spammable buff that allow them to keep the pressure on longer. Some people also have matched their skill to armor sets and did quite a bit of theory crafting. New Moon is an awesome set.

Magplar was my main until a couple months ago, and yes I was a nightblade killer--but most my kills came from Crushing Shock...because almost all NB stayed just out of my range even with use of Toppling Charge, and were faster than me...and when they were in range my sweeps were so unpredictable because of lag that I could really only reliably use sweeps against newer NBs, I will tell you that every Templar has a window of vulnerability, you just have to watch.

Stamplars are strong after not being great for a long time, , but we need that, cuz they are the ones that are going to have the majority of the DPS on my defile tank Magden, and other tank builds.

If you are talking 1 v 1s, go to your house and make some rules, like all tournies have.

What’s the counter class to magsorc? I’m not asking as a passive aggressive nerf request, I’ve noticed something similar between classes but they seem to be a class without a counter.

Depending on the build and player you can still kill one, but I don’t see an inherent class weakness.

I use Crushing Shock, on 3 dif mag alts--it will often open a window up when you interupt. One alt also uses Vamp Drain which has decent success to stop them from moving long enough. My magDK has good success against magsorcs, if I have the right CCs loaded and get them without immovability etc. But one prob is that a lot of Sorcs carry purge because their magic pool is big enough, so you have to interupt or stun. Most people use the same rotation no matter what, and once you interupt it, they start to flounder.

MurderMostFoul

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

BRP DW reduces the damage of Jabs by 55% with one button press. If you aren't passed out over your keyboard that backbar 2pc set alone should ensure you never die to a Templar in a 1v1.

L2Math, because thats not how damage reduction works. If it worked like that, you could easily have 100% dmg reduction in mistform, which is impossible. Dmg reduction works multiplicatively, not additively. So you can stop spreading your biased misinformation.

47.5% mitigation against Jabs is not that much less than 55%. The exact numbers may be off, but gist of what is being said is still accurate.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one needs any evidence of jabs/sweep being overtuned besides the fact that it does the same amount of damage as warden's shalks and necro's blastbones. That's it. If you play eso, you know that means it does too much damage, or you're a Templar.

Consider how much damage someone takes from one channel of jabs (equal to blastbones/shalks) and two ticks of burning light, and then consider the effort involved. Jabs is a dumb skill.

Both shalks and blastbones can hit at the same time as other skills, adding to their burst potential, vs jabs which has its damage spread over a second. Also, the chance of getting 2 burning lights in one cast of jabs is 6.25%.

Isn't there a cooldown on Burning Light? I think that makes it very hard to get 2 procs from one Jab. If the first jab does not proc Burning Light, I think the cooldown will prevent you from getting 2 procs. And if that first jab does proc Burning Light, I think cooldown means you only have a proc chance on fourth jab because the second and third jab will be during cooldown window. Basically, you do not really have 4 chances to proc Burning Light when you cast Biting Jabs. And about 1/3rd of time you get no proc even if all four jabs hit.

You are correct. Burning light has a .5 sec cool down, preventing it from proccing for half the duration of jabs, a.k.a. two strikes. Thus, in order to get two burning light procs in one jab channel, you need it to proc on the first hit and the fourth hit.

The chance of a proc on the first hit is 25%, the chance of a proc on the last hit is 25%. Thus, the chance of both occurring equals:

0.25 x 0.25 = 0.0625 = 6.25%

Your 1/3 no proc cast rate is pretty close as well. Against a single target, the chance of not proccing is 75% on each hit. Thus the chance of no proc on all four hits equals:

0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 = 0.3164 = 31.64%

So, you will not be proccing burning light on a little over 30% of your jab channels that hit all four times against single target. Conversely, you will hit that target with at least one burning light proc 68.36% of the time.

EtTuBrutus

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

ecru

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

Iskiab

Jabs/sweeps is strong, there’s no denying it. It looks like it’s been put in line with a frags proc which sort of makes sense.

I don’t know if passives should be part of the discussion of abilities though. Do people really think that Templars have the best dps passives in the game? If not, then isn’t this just a way to frame an argument to lead people to a conclusion and not an actual comparison?

BaiterOfZergs

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

CynicK

I think it is still it a bit overtuned too, that when fighting against them spamable vs spamable i always lose, you just feel when they attack they are doing more damage per second as the op seems to point out, but in my case I have grinded crushing weapon and no longer fear templars.
One thing i did not have clear from the discussion is if it can be mitigated with evasion, so it can for what i read.

Rikumaru

Yeah jabs is the best spammable in the game, but so what? Some classes have better skills / passives for a particular area than other classes do. That's what you call identity. If you nerf down jabs to the same level as weapon skills or other generic spammables, all you are doing is further killing class identity.

What did you expect would happen when you people cry out for nerfs on every good spammable in the game? Repeatedly nerfing strife? Removing major fracture from surprise attack? Removing CC from dizzying swing and a sizable nerf in damage? Massive nerfs for puncture and heroic slash? Nerfing destructive reach into oblivion?.

Iskiab

Rikumaru wrote: »

Yeah jabs is the best spammable in the game, but so what? Some classes have better skills / passives for a particular area than other classes do. That's what you call identity. If you nerf down jabs to the same level as weapon skills or other generic spammables, all you are doing is further killing class identity.

What did you expect would happen when you people cry out for nerfs on every good spammable in the game? Repeatedly nerfing strife? Removing major fracture from surprise attack? Removing CC from dizzying swing and a sizable nerf in damage? Massive nerfs for puncture and heroic slash? Nerfing destructive reach into oblivion?.

Agreed, sweeps is just next down on the list. I’m surprised frags hasn’t been mentioned yet, that’s basicly next best along with MagDKs and dizzy. Have to wonder how much of it is people getting used to dizzy spam.

ketsparrowhawk

Not sure you noticed but they gave up on the idea of standardizing abilities. Which is a good thing.

Spammables don't need to be equal. The classes as a whole just need to be more-or-less balanced compared to others. Most of Templar's damage comes from Jabs + Burning light.. so Jabs needs to be strong, especially considering you have to get in mele range to use it.

Compared to a Sorc, who can nuke you with a curse + fury + frags combo from a safe 36 meters away then streak away if you get too close.. Templar's toolkit seems fine to me.

BaiterOfZergs

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Not sure you noticed but they gave up on the idea of standardizing abilities. Which is a good thing.

Spammables don't need to be equal. The classes as a whole just need to be more-or-less balanced compared to others. Most of Templar's damage comes from Jabs + Burning light.. so Jabs needs to be strong, especially considering you have to get in mele range to use it.

Compared to a Sorc, who can nuke you with a curse + fury + frags combo from a safe 36 meters away then streak away if you get too close.. Templar's toolkit seems fine to me.

People are also leaving out that Templar dots have been nerfed. Meaning the missing damage is now being invested into jabs/sweeps, plus direct damage skills. This is giving the illusion that the damage has been buffed but really it’s just making up for the damage that’s missing. It’s a no brainer to build for direct damage, crit and pen this update. Crit damage can easily be over 50 percent and at the minimum around 40 percent. Throw in pen and you’re looking at some decent damage.

All of this is a direct result of overnerfing dots and forcing one generic style. With that being said there’s still multiple ways to combat the damage in the game.

EtTuBrutus

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

My point on dmg to cost is IF only 1/4th or 1/2 of it connects. No other SPAMMABLE skill has that caveat. They either connect or they don't. Besides flurry i guess. If your opponent out maneuvers you're wb, it costs you nothing but time. Jabs on the other hand will still cost resources.

EtTuBrutus

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

MartiniDaniels

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

Alienoutlaw

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

CompM4s

Im sure its not just jabs that is killing you.

EtTuBrutus

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

I actually prefer jabs against low hp targets that block heal for that stamina drain, but i normally run with 1 or 2 others so timing ults and reverse slice does more damage to more people (jabs aoe damage is laughable to strong builds). When i play with them i slot it, when i am solo i usually slot an escape tool like race in its place and work with potl/dbos burst

Everything hits hard after onslaught. The skill is broken OP. I use dbos still out of self respect, plus it's stun is great in small group dumps. Although i don't really know why i care any more, zos certainly doesn't give a care.

OrderoftheDarkness

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Im creating the scenario YOU'RE neglecting to acknowledge that impacts its balancing. I'm not saying it happens all the time, and our can do great damage. My point is it's balance isn't based around standing in front of a stationary dummy spamming 1 button.

I do fine using the skill, but it certainly is replaceable vs good players with counters.

Do you use executioner on stamplar? So far I found it is more effective to slot turn evil instead (since many players will block TC), to guarantee onslaught connect, well, and after onslaught jabs+potl are just crazy. Jabs are so much better then executioner... because even if opponent will use some burst heal whatever, onslaught jabs will still hit like truck while executioner becomes ineffective at 35%+ HP.

So much meaning in those words!! I'm not trying to flatter you, but all your posts are very smart and constructive. It was like it was in my head, but I couldn't express it. This is called perfect class spam ability.This ability allows you to free yourself from the stereotypes of weaving (dizzy-execution) and as a bonus frees one slot. This weave allows you to move gracefully among the template builds in the battle. This is what other classes and their spammable should strive for, only with its own identity. They also need synegria with the rest of their own abilities, so that the weaving could have its own direction as in the case of the Templar.

Jabbs_Giggity

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

Jabs alone is fine, only thing if anything that could be changed is the snare and lowering it to 30%. The thing that makes it strong are the other things in the Templar kit which have nothing todo with the jabs. Stop trying to get this skill nerfed for no reason. Trying slotting major evasion, using a cc and countering with your own burst to put them on the defensive to stop the jabs or have your shade planted esp if your a cloakblade by the sounds of it.

It's like the magsorc with BoL, the skill is really strong and imo there is nothing wrong with it but it's other things in the kit that can make it appear over the top like 1 way los that they abuse with pets. Stuff that has 0 counter play is the only thing that should be consider for nerfs not a skill that kills you because you refuse to use the numerous way of counter play and get upset about.

Try to play also some other class not only templar
Major evasion is not solution Top charge and spam jabs again. Counter with burst. Jabs currently has most one target dmg of all skills. There is way to counter but is not at same skill requirement level like put light charge and spam jabs. Don’t understand why class which has access to best purge, healing, cheapest op area ultimate has also access to strongest one target skill. It’s not healthy when Templar has better burst than glasscanon NB.

I actually main a stamblade that doesn't use shadowy disguise and prefers dark cloak in medium armor and have no problem against jab spam without heavy armor or defensive sets. While yes jabs does do more damage then surprise attack our spammable that has nothing todo with the skill being over powered and just means our class could use a buff to our own spammable. You have more then enough ways to counter jab spam esp on a nightblade with a good build without defensive sets or special gear.

jabs doesnt just deal more damage than our spammable/ it deals more than our main ult.

idk wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

this is comparing jabs to other skills and showing how overpowerd it is as a spammable. in pvp there are lots of different variables.
i have proven that jabs does more damage than every other spammable. (with burning light) and has a huge amount of extra effects.

You have not proven jack. Tossing a bunch of numbers in a vacuum is meaningless. It is worthless information without context which is what many of us have pointed out in various ways and you have provided NO context whatsoever.

In other words, your only reasoning provided is the tooltips for some skills show they do less damage. That is a poor way to manage a game.

Your argument is flat not because of how jabs performs but because the comparison is in a vacuum and the data provided is greatly lacking.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see undisputed evident. Just a comparison of skills that are not really comparable leading to a meaningless wall of text.

Show us a video of you up against jabs. That would be solid evidence. We could see what is actually happening and why OP is encountering such a challenge when up against jabs. It could provide Zos with helpful information. As it is this thread lacks that.

and 'easy to miss' is a useless argument.

BTW, dismissing valid points because they are inconvenient does not help your case.

ok. im confused.
are you saying jabs doesn't deal more damage in real pvp?

things that would negate it.
major evasion 25% (on jab not burning light) still deals more damage than onslaught.
dodge. if onslaught is dodged then it hist for 0 damage. as i said before, its impossible to dodge all hits of jabs.
avoiding. templar has a huge aoe 30% snare. and a 40% from jabs. and a stunning gap closer. its rather hard to not get hit.

or are you saying that my data is incorrect?
test it yourself.

I've read most of your rebuttals so far, but I will never agree in your favor. I main a Stamplar and it's one of the most difficult classes to master. Reasons is because they lack mobility, they lack healing, escape and engagement tools and have a 2-3 skill burst combo (one's delayed and requires damage to be dealt, an Ult and another that requires precise positioning to land most hits). With that being said, I have shelved my Stamplar this patch for my Stamblade. I have just as much success killing with my stamblade as well as defending against Templars.

To your quote, jabs in pvp generally do not do as much damage in PVP because they are easy tooi avoid and/or mitigate - FACT.
Major Evasion is a great damage mitigation tool against Jabs, and if you're not using it then it's L2P because it has more use than just against jabs. Also, by the way, burning light is s passive skill proc and applies to all aedric spear abilities. Therefore, should not be coupled with any skill alone in comparison to other like skills. And it's a proc chance, not a guarentee.
It's actually easy to avoid all 4 jabs. Simply walk right through the player. ZOS reverted the camera targeting tool so the hitbox no longer moves instantly with POV panning.
Snares aren't additive. If you're hit by a 30%, then a 40% you're still only snared by 40%. Slot Shuffle instead, Major Evasion plus Snare removal and immunity for 5s lol solved two paint points with one click.
Stamplar don't have gap closer, unless slotting Toppling for the off balance which you're probably giving up a lot to do so with bar space.

I am saying your data is intellectually incorrect when applied to real world (in game) scenario.

If you're tying to spam cloak whilst walking away in the direction player is jabbing, it's a L2P issue on your part. Try playing with Shade, I use it on my stamblade religiously and love it for repositioning or getting out of snares, especially jabs.

ecru

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

Jabbs_Giggity

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

ThePhantomThorn

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

The old snare. Old. Old. Not relevant.
Templars always fight inside ritual. Because they can replace it.
It has a higher tooltip than onslaught.
And shalks land every 3 secs.
Jabs can hit constantly. You can hit 3 jab channels in the same time as one shalks.
I used to play stamplar all the time. A dizzy into 2x jab and a execute killed pretty much anyone. It was easy to land because everyone else was moving 70% slower. It’s 40% now but still... it’s not hard to land.

Let me ask you. Is it ok that a spammable hits harder than onslaught?
No buts, no ifs.
In a simple yes or no.

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

lol@OP you do know that the 40% snare is a one time deal once target is snared i cant snare them again for X amount of seconds so you can run away if you want to, Jabs are so easy to counter they are hardly worth using unless you really need to, i get that ppl do spam them but seriously if your going to complain about something dont do it from a notebook of numbers actually play the skill and play other class's against that skill then and only then will you have enough knowledge to call for a change

They're snared anyway because you've got a ritual down, unless you've managed to chase them out of it and not place it down again, but then you don't have the hot going. The snare from jabs was pretty overtuned in the past (70%), but now it's almost exactly the same as ritual, so it's kind of inconsequential the majority of the time. Having the ritual snare on your opponent almost permanently does mean that any melee abilities are much easier to land, and this includes jabs.

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

So jabs never lands in pvp? I guess the ability is in fact broken, because to a templar, a scenario where the entire channel lands doesn't actually ever happen? Meanwhile in reality almost every ability can be avoided in some way, and many abilities in very obvious ways. Shalks is heavily channeled with an obvious animation, blastbones has a very obvious pet, etc.

If jabs is such a bad skill in that it apparently never lands, I wonder why templars even bother to slot it?

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

There are plenty of instances where burning light doesn't proc. Just simply adding it is moronic, especially considering how actual combat can easily create instances where half or more of your spammable doesn't actually hit. No other spammable has a chance of only doing 1/4th of its damage. But hey, you didn't die if that happened so you won't complain about that.

Jabs is balanced around its ability to build against it through evasion, out maneuver it which makes it the most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game, the fact that it's not targeted and does full dmg to only 1 target that might not be your focus, is melee range.

Man does it crunch potatos though.

Jabs is not the "most expensive damage to cost spammable in the game", not even by a long shot. In fact it's the opposite. Comparing it's base damage to stone giant, stone giant is .35 damage/stam (this includes the helping hands passive), and jabs is .59 damage/stam. Jabs is nearly twice as efficient. You would have to be such a bad player that you only ever land half of your channel every single time for it to be less efficient.

To tell us that jabs is apparently not a good skill (or even a bad one, as seen above by the "most expensive spammable" argument), you're creating a scenario where every opponent is somehow avoiding most of the channel 100% of the time, and is also mitigating it as much as possible. If you're having such a hard time using the ability, the problem might be you, and not the ability itself.

Honestly, if you can't land jabs on a target that's permanently snared (because you have extended ritual slotted, and it's up 24/7, so your target is permanently snared), I'm probably wasting my time.

You guys are doing the same thing on both sides. The argument is jabs either never lands or they always land, both are false. One can say you’re the problem if every jab is hitting you and one can say you’re the problem if you’re missing every jab. It goes both ways.

Also, I don’t see how anyone is snared down by ritual when the average build should have some sort of snare immunity and/or major expedition. The only class I feel “snared” down on is DK because I simply don’t care to build for either.

The OP is also misleading because you can’t just throw out numbers without at least adding major evasion. You also have to consider some of those other skills like shalks can land at the same time for even more damage.

You're missing the point. It's not that I'm doing the same thing from the other side (suggesting it always lands), I'm suggesting that every single ability can be avoided quite easily at times, and not so easily during other times, so there's no point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios where jabs should be judged differently than every other ability in the game.

There are trade-offs for both types, and I don't believe either has an inherent advantage. Some are better in different scenarios, but to say that jabs is so unreliable that it only ever lands half the time, so that it should do much more damage than every spammable, isn't an accurate representation of what actually happens in game. It ignores any scenario where you land two successful channels of jabs and two burning light procs, and do more damage than you would had your opponent eaten two shalks or blastbones, or equal damage to three wrecking blows. It also ignores the scenario where your opponent blocks an entire channel and is penalized more than they would be if they had blocked a single instant ability, or where half of a channel lands when if you had used an instant ability, it would have been completely avoided. The damage output per point of resources also vastly outpaces any other spammable in the game (refer to my stonefist comparison above).

Every target doesn't have major evasion, and it still requires a gcd to get that mitigation. Every target also doesn't have snare immunity or major expedition up all the time. What ability do a large number of people use that gives you snare immunity or major expedition often enough to have even 50% uptime on it? For the vast majority of any fight with a templar nearby, you will be snared, and there is no way around it. Even if you use quick cloak on cd, you're still snared 70% of the time, and when you aren't, you're only moving at normal speed. Having every one of your opponents either snared or moving at normal speed the vast majority of the time is melee on easy mode and should make landing jabs or any other ability easier as a templar than any other class.

tl;dr "people can avoid my ability so it has to do more than every other ability" is a bad argument for an ability being substantially better than everything else. everything can be avoided. hitting one button and doing 30% more damage than shalks/blastbones unconditionally isn't a thing that should happen in eso unless that button is an ult.

The old snare on jabs only applied on the final kab, which did miss over 50% of the time. As for ritual, most templars dont fight inside of it because of how mobile all classes have become; it's now used more so while kiting, similar to cloak or streak.

As for damage on jabs, it does have higher tooltip than shalks and blastbones because both are delayed, directional burst (or targeted for blastbones) from range. While jabs is a channel that cannot be animation cancelled in the same fashion as flurry which has a higher tooltip overall.
You're arguments are null. This is purely a L2P issue. Just because you, and a few others feel overwhelmed by the skill doesnt qualify it as OP.
By the way, landing jabs isn't as easy as you think. Try it sometime

The old snare. Old. Old. Not relevant.
Templars always fight inside ritual. Because they can replace it.
It has a higher tooltip than onslaught.
And shalks land every 3 secs.
Jabs can hit constantly. You can hit 3 jab channels in the same time as one shalks.
I used to play stamplar all the time. A dizzy into 2x jab and a execute killed pretty much anyone. It was easy to land because everyone else was moving 70% slower. It’s 40% now but still... it’s not hard to land.

Let me ask you. Is it ok that a spammable hits harder than onslaught?
No buts, no ifs.
In a simple yes or no.

Big no, but I don’t think Onslaught is a good ability to use to compared because it’s one of the best ones.

TheBonesXXX

Joy_Division wrote: »

Do you have anything else better to do than ask ZOS to buff your favorite class while nerfing everyone else?

RIP looooool