How do we fix the tank meta

technohic

xylena wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Ok but you're talking healing done. That hurts the more than just a tank healbot. Unless you guys are talking healing done to others, but that still impacts more than just a heal tank.

Specifically nerfing healing done to other players (not self healing) in PvP would be one way to address overtuned PvP group healing, but there are any number of ways that could be accomplished. The important thing for players to repeatedly let ZOS know that overtuned PvP group healing makes for bad PvP, and hope ZOS figures out the best solution.

I can agree here. I am always just concerned that nerfs will hit everything else. ZOS has a track record of hearing us and twisting it to something grossly the wrong way.

Raudgrani

Ok. I don't buy this "CP is to blame for all of this", CP has been locked at 810 forever now. In like mid 2017 to early 2018, they game was actually playable and very fun. The "balancing" that has been done over a year or so, is what brought us here. Not "proc sets", not CP's or anything else - but all the changes to abilities. If we were sort of reverted to around Morrowind, you could still play any kind of class in PVP and get away with it. Now there's like one kind of build that's "meta", and everything else is inferior, and it feels like it's been this way for quite a while now. All people to is cry for more nerfs, not seeing the bigger picture.

Kel

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ok. I don't buy this "CP is to blame for all of this", CP has been locked at 810 forever now. In like mid 2017 to early 2018, they game was actually playable and very fun. The "balancing" that has been done over a year or so, is what brought us here. Not "proc sets", not CP's or anything else - but all the changes to abilities. If we were sort of reverted to around Morrowind, you could still play any kind of class in PVP and get away with it. Now there's like one kind of build that's "meta", and everything else is inferior, and it feels like it's been this way for quite a while now. All people to is cry for more nerfs, not seeing the bigger picture.

QFT.

But you'll never get the sheep to see it.
CP is blamed for everything. Even though, as you aptly point out, it's been locked for a year with no increase.
Yet you'll still have people blaming it for "power creep". How? CP has been locked and hasn't caused a increase in anything for a YEAR. It's not creeping on anything, let alone power...

But people can't wrap thier head around it, or are simply ignoring the facts to push some agenda, so they blame CP for everything from power creep to balance.

The willful ignorance on this forum is staggering sometimes...

Iskiab

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ok. I don't buy this "CP is to blame for all of this", CP has been locked at 810 forever now. In like mid 2017 to early 2018, they game was actually playable and very fun. The "balancing" that has been done over a year or so, is what brought us here. Not "proc sets", not CP's or anything else - but all the changes to abilities. If we were sort of reverted to around Morrowind, you could still play any kind of class in PVP and get away with it. Now there's like one kind of build that's "meta", and everything else is inferior, and it feels like it's been this way for quite a while now. All people to is cry for more nerfs, not seeing the bigger picture.

Yea, that’s true, but have you ever had a 1v1 stalemate in no-CP? I haven’t.

Things are like that, there’s almost never a silver bullet, there are multiple factors for everything. CPs are definitely part of tankiness, I mean, part of it is a health boost, how couldn’t it be?

Abyssmol

In pvp, only the Resto staff skills could heal other players. That's it! No heal to other players from any other skill line, including the class skills. Only a healer wearing a Resto Staff would be able to heal other toons. Tank problem solved!

ecru

Implement something that bypasses block and "fix" shields. I had a build that did just that, but they nerfed it when they nerfed dots and nerfed corrosive. It was a whole lot of fun watching people's health chunk off when I hit corrosive and it would effect some of the dots applied retroactively. Claw, breath, carve (before the nerf), and rending with master dw, plus two weapon bleeds, was a really solid dot stack and they took it away. I'm talking during wrathstone and early elsweyr, before they buffed all dots, and then nerfed them to where they're at now. They were in a really good spot, and they really screwed it up. Corrosive was also in a really good spot with the way it effected everything, and they took that away too. Now it's weaker than it used to be as an offensive ult, and barely worth it's cost in a lot of situations.

That said, regardless of whether they're effective or not, there is too much of a hard counter to dots/bleeds (purges) to make them a totally viable solution regardless of how good they are. I firmly believe that purges need a gigantic nerf, seeing as one cast can mitigate hundreds of thousands of damage, or one templar can cast ritual, and a billion people within 100km get a synergy that removes literally every negative effect, dots, debuffs, whatever, mitigating (again) potentially hundreds of thousands of damage, with one cast, and that isn't even the only thing the ability does.

See where I'm going with this? Even if you could stack dots against tanky players, half the time there will be a templar around to cast one gcd to cancel out 10, 15, 20.. or more dots for all of the people around him. Or a tanky healer with purge slotted, spamming it, completely cancelling out one of the only tools we have that bypasses block. I don't really think the developers understand their own game at all and for that reason, I've almost entirely stopped pvping for the past 3-4+ months. Maybe if enough people quit, they'll wake up. Probably not though. Goodluck getting that tank meta fixed, lol.

Iskiab

Abyssmol wrote: »

In pvp, only the Resto staff skills could heal other players. That's it! No heal to other players from any other skill line, including the class skills. Only a healer wearing a Resto Staff would be able to heal other toons. Tank problem solved!

Wow, this would be the biggest magplar buff of all time. Half my deaths in BGs are from the squishy tool on my team getting heals I want to heal myself. The only thing it would nerf would be ritual.

I think it’s a great idea too! I don’t think the glassy people realize how much they’re being carried in BGs.

Cathexis

StaticWave wrote: »

Moreover, defensive maneuvers such as rolling/blocking/line of sighting, are always more effective than just face tanking people. I'm speaking from experience because unless you build full tank with 60k HP and zero damage, you're not going to face tank 4+ players in a conventional "tank" build that can actually kill people. Most of them incorporate rolls/line of sight/blocking into their defense, which is why they can survive multiple players. Better yet, you can always try making a "tank" build and see how well you do face tanking 4+ opponents.

It's not impossible but it is sure as (snip) hard.

(edited for bypassing profanity filter)

StaticWave

Cathexis wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Moreover, defensive maneuvers such as rolling/blocking/line of sighting, are always more effective than just face tanking people. I'm speaking from experience because unless you build full tank with 60k HP and zero damage, you're not going to face tank 4+ players in a conventional "tank" build that can actually kill people. Most of them incorporate rolls/line of sight/blocking into their defense, which is why they can survive multiple players. Better yet, you can always try making a "tank" build and see how well you do face tanking 4+ opponents.

It's not impossible but it is sure as (snip) hard.

(edited for bypassing profanity filter)

It'll definitely require well-timed blocks and rolls to avoid bursts from multiple players. It's pretty much impossible to face tank 3 onslaughts and survive, unless you dodge them by rolling, or block the damage.

XNativexPrideX

Kel wrote: »

I hope everyone in this thread realizes we as players are 1000% to blame for this "tank meta".

1000%

We cried about poisons....gutted
We cried about defile....gutted
We cried about oblivion damage....gutted
We cried about bleeds....gutted

This is what you get for asking for nerfs. Now if a group has a healer, it takes at least 3 players to bring it down. Now damage just can't keep up with outgoing healing, and groups are just stacking tanky healers. Now you're seeing 40k health tanks who can hardly be scratched because they can just shrug off your 6k weapon damage while hitting you with a broken Invigorating Drain leaving you unable to break free and getting rolled over.

Remember when people died in PvP? Sure you do, your ego couldn't handle it, so you cried for nerfs. Bring death back to PvP!

We asked for this meta by asking for nerfs.
And we've still learned NOTHING.

STOP👏
ASKING👏
FOR👏
NERFS👏

Y'all need to be slapped across your face.....

Dannnnggg I agree. So many different damage types were complained about. Proc sets, dots, bleeds, oblivion, defile, etc.. Now they are all getting nerfed to dirt. Sigh.. I bomb. But it's been tough to bomb this patch. On ps4 NA it's not tanks that bug me so much. It's Tank Zergs. 24 man healing tank zergs. It's wild. AD has quite the Templar faction on ps4 na. Makes it rough

pieratsos

Kel wrote: »

I hope everyone in this thread realizes we as players are 1000% to blame for this "tank meta".

1000%

We cried about poisons....gutted
We cried about defile....gutted
We cried about oblivion damage....gutted
We cried about bleeds....gutted

This is what you get for asking for nerfs. Now if a group has a healer, it takes at least 3 players to bring it down. Now damage just can't keep up with outgoing healing, and groups are just stacking tanky healers. Now you're seeing 40k health tanks who can hardly be scratched because they can just shrug off your 6k weapon damage while hitting you with a broken Invigorating Drain leaving you unable to break free and getting rolled over.

Remember when people died in PvP? Sure you do, your ego couldn't handle it, so you cried for nerfs. Bring death back to PvP!

We asked for this meta by asking for nerfs.
And we've still learned NOTHING.

STOP👏
ASKING👏
FOR👏
NERFS👏

Y'all need to be slapped across your face.....

1000% those mechanics deserved their nerfs and then some. They werent counters to anything. They were just broken mechanics and people got carried by them for so long that they actually confused player skill with getting carried by broken stuff.

No one asked for this meta by asking for nerfs. Nerfs are needed to achieve balance just as much as buffs. ZOS is just incompetent when it comes to balance because they dont have a clue about how their game works.

Iskiab

How many of you guys did a lot of BGs while leveling? They’re pretty fun. People’s burst is really low, damage and healing are a lot lower too. No one gets globaled.

It’s what the game would look like with less burst and healing. Sometimes it’s just a big brawl in the middle where everyone’s spamming their poopy spammables whittling people down. If you find that sort of thing fun, what’s actually required is less burst and healing while keeping tanking just as high.

heavier

bring back Soul Assault with the new bonus *does 2x damage against tanks*
only 3/4 joking
keep the 6 second duration increase DPS so it's similar to previous meta, if not entirely as high
lowering the DPS and increasing channel time doesn't work.
devs made it cost 166 Ult from 100, shouldn't the overall damage get buffed as well, even if it's at the cost of slightly less DPS?

I respect players who don't want to die. it's just that killing them seems impossible + somehow they deal a lot more damage than I do.

SA requires total commitment to be effective. that's the only fair way to take a tank down IMO. it can't be an instant cast.
when I channel SA, I expose myself completely and it's very possible to pressure me so I cancel mid channel just in order to survive.

Stibbons

Increase damage over times and make them cheapers with area spells. Or go and nerf hvy armor to ground with sword and board.

heavier

just fought a tanky sorc.
was doubling for 5 mins and couldn't get them below 60% HP
the ridiculous thing is that they would have had enough enough Teleports to outrun me and I have a full sprint build.
sorcs have waaaaaaaaaay too much sustain and 100% uptime on all of their OP abilities.
this means they can transition between defense, teleporting around, and offense with 0 consideration given to their resources. some guy name Chapo or something.
the solution is to triple the cost of all their abilities, make MP pots more viable and also maybe increase magicka regen.

ThePhantomThorn

heavier wrote: »

just fought a tanky sorc.
was doubling for 5 mins and couldn't get them below 60% HP
the ridiculous thing is that they would have had enough enough Teleports to outrun me and I have a full sprint build.
sorcs have waaaaaaaaaay too much sustain and 100% uptime on all of their OP abilities.
this means they can transition between defense, teleporting around, and offense with 0 consideration given to their resources. some guy name Chapo or something.
the solution is to triple the cost of all their abilities, make MP pots more viable and also maybe increase magicka regen.

No.
Just no.

I think sorc is overtuned but triple ability cost...

Sorcs have virtually infinite sustain from dark conversion. That used stam. Cc break uses stam.
Just stun them after and most sorcs don’t have enough stam to break free.
That being said, nerf sorc

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

heavier wrote: »

just fought a tanky sorc.
was doubling for 5 mins and couldn't get them below 60% HP
the ridiculous thing is that they would have had enough enough Teleports to outrun me and I have a full sprint build.
sorcs have waaaaaaaaaay too much sustain and 100% uptime on all of their OP abilities.
this means they can transition between defense, teleporting around, and offense with 0 consideration given to their resources. some guy name Chapo or something.
the solution is to triple the cost of all their abilities, make MP pots more viable and also maybe increase magicka regen.

No.
Just no.

I think sorc is overtuned but triple ability cost...

Sorcs have virtually infinite sustain from dark conversion. That used stam. Cc break uses stam.
Just stun them after and most sorcs don’t have enough stam to break free.
That being said, nerf sorc

It’s not hat bad really. I made mine a wood elf because of the juicy stamina restore passive, use tri stat pots and stam is pretty easy on a magsorc.

ThePhantomThorn

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

heavier wrote: »

just fought a tanky sorc.
was doubling for 5 mins and couldn't get them below 60% HP
the ridiculous thing is that they would have had enough enough Teleports to outrun me and I have a full sprint build.
sorcs have waaaaaaaaaay too much sustain and 100% uptime on all of their OP abilities.
this means they can transition between defense, teleporting around, and offense with 0 consideration given to their resources. some guy name Chapo or something.
the solution is to triple the cost of all their abilities, make MP pots more viable and also maybe increase magicka regen.

No.
Just no.

I think sorc is overtuned but triple ability cost...

Sorcs have virtually infinite sustain from dark conversion. That used stam. Cc break uses stam.
Just stun them after and most sorcs don’t have enough stam to break free.
That being said, nerf sorc

It’s not hat bad really. I made mine a wood elf because of the juicy stamina restore passive, use tri stat pots and stam is pretty easy on a magsorc.

After 3 dark deals you may reconsider

Areloth

Pretty easy.
Increase armor cap: 50% mitigation with 42.000 armor
Reduce HoT by 20%

Done - you're welcome.

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

heavier wrote: »

just fought a tanky sorc.
was doubling for 5 mins and couldn't get them below 60% HP
the ridiculous thing is that they would have had enough enough Teleports to outrun me and I have a full sprint build.
sorcs have waaaaaaaaaay too much sustain and 100% uptime on all of their OP abilities.
this means they can transition between defense, teleporting around, and offense with 0 consideration given to their resources. some guy name Chapo or something.
the solution is to triple the cost of all their abilities, make MP pots more viable and also maybe increase magicka regen.

No.
Just no.

I think sorc is overtuned but triple ability cost...

Sorcs have virtually infinite sustain from dark conversion. That used stam. Cc break uses stam.
Just stun them after and most sorcs don’t have enough stam to break free.
That being said, nerf sorc

It’s not hat bad really. I made mine a wood elf because of the juicy stamina restore passive, use tri stat pots and stam is pretty easy on a magsorc.

After 3 dark deals you may reconsider

It only takes two to clear the stacking streak debuff. Plus at a 2k stam cost you replenish each cast in 4 seconds.

With streak x4 and dark exchange x2 you’ll eventually run out of magicka, but streak x3 and dark exchange x2 you can literally do indefinitely.

Joinovikova

Areloth wrote: »

Pretty easy.
Increase armor cap: 50% mitigation with 42.000 armor
Reduce HoT by 20%

Done - you're welcome.

There is easiest way affected health revovery with battlespirit so it will not posible tu stack 4600 hp/2s witch troll king amd rework penetratioon to percentage

TheBonesXXX

Kel wrote: »

I hope everyone in this thread realizes we as players are 1000% to blame for this "tank meta".

1000%

We cried about poisons....gutted
We cried about defile....gutted
We cried about oblivion damage....gutted
We cried about bleeds....gutted

This is what you get for asking for nerfs. Now if a group has a healer, it takes at least 3 players to bring it down. Now damage just can't keep up with outgoing healing, and groups are just stacking tanky healers. Now you're seeing 40k health tanks who can hardly be scratched because they can just shrug off your 6k weapon damage while hitting you with a broken Invigorating Drain leaving you unable to break free and getting rolled over.

Remember when people died in PvP? Sure you do, your ego couldn't handle it, so you cried for nerfs. Bring death back to PvP!

We asked for this meta by asking for nerfs.
And we've still learned NOTHING.

STOP👏
ASKING👏
FOR👏
NERFS👏

Y'all need to be slapped across your face.....

This here, nerfing is stupid.

Ranger209

I was a way for a few months, so what was the deal with nerfing all the dots? The tank meta disappeared at that time? Was it still around, but squishies were dying to quickly? What was the deal there, and why did they nerf the dots? Were they putting too much pressure on the wrong people and not enough on the right people?

Iskiab

Ranger209 wrote: »

I was a way for a few months, so what was the deal with nerfing all the dots? The tank meta disappeared at that time? Was it still around, but squishies were dying to quickly? What was the deal there, and why did they nerf the dots? Were they putting too much pressure on the wrong people and not enough on the right people?

Basicly yea.

A lot complained about it, especially sorcs and 1vX players. It’s harder to kite, even if it’s a rock, if people can dot you up and keep pressure up.

The biggest thing was they standardized all dots to hit hard so PvErs all loaded up on dots and complained the playstyle was boring. They complained more when dps went down though.

Vyvrhel

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

Can PLEASE someone tell me what is the ridiculous facetanking build what needs the nerf? I need it. I am a pvp noob owned by anyone and his grandma and I just want to explore the Imperial City for the story. I just want to solo roam the IC and facetank any ambusher who camps base exists and like until he gots bored and runs away. Thanks.
Oh permasneak does not really help because sometimes I need to kill mobs and so.

ThePhantomThorn

Vyvrhel wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

Can PLEASE someone tell me what is the ridiculous facetanking build what needs the nerf? I need it. I am a pvp noob owned by anyone and his grandma and I just want to explore the Imperial City for the story. I just want to solo roam the IC and facetank any ambusher who camps base exists and like until he gots bored and runs away. Thanks.
Oh permasneak does not really help because sometimes I need to kill mobs and so.

its not a build. its the general tankyness of everyone.
and if you dont want to die its easy. there are super tank builds that can tank 10+ players for ever.

ZarkingFrued

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

So let’s throw some ideas around on how to fix it.

Going to make some quick points
-Increase damage. Rn it’s so hard to kill players.
-Make defensive stats harder to invest in. So getting a casual 28k hp while stacking 5k wd is not possible
-Add better med damage set options. Eg, a set similar to fury, but rather than taking damage procs of dealing damage. (therefore a reason to run med)
-Nerf heavy armour. Its just too strong.
-reduce group healing through battle spirit, this way players can’t just stack heals over their entire group, and stop the players from being immortal because their 30hp isn’t constantly being topped of by a nearby healer
-punish players for running heavy. Eg reduce wd/movement speed. Because rn there are no disadvantages

THEY HAVE DONE almost ALL OF THESE, this really is a L2p issue. I kill most players with a single combo no issue. Damage is fine

ThePhantomThorn

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

So let’s throw some ideas around on how to fix it.

Going to make some quick points
-Increase damage. Rn it’s so hard to kill players.
-Make defensive stats harder to invest in. So getting a casual 28k hp while stacking 5k wd is not possible
-Add better med damage set options. Eg, a set similar to fury, but rather than taking damage procs of dealing damage. (therefore a reason to run med)
-Nerf heavy armour. Its just too strong.
-reduce group healing through battle spirit, this way players can’t just stack heals over their entire group, and stop the players from being immortal because their 30hp isn’t constantly being topped of by a nearby healer
-punish players for running heavy. Eg reduce wd/movement speed. Because rn there are no disadvantages

THEY HAVE DONE almost ALL OF THESE, this really is a L2p issue. I kill most players with a single combo no issue. Damage is fine

l2p l2p l2p....

well then.
did you play around morrowind? because thats when i joined. back then stamblade didnt need to stot relentless on the main bar. people died from an incap and a surprise attack or 2. sure people die, but. they take ages. i can burst on my new stamdk main ez. but. i have to hit my dswing, my ult, and an execute. i have to hit a combo that can take 15? secs to set up(ult regen) to burst a player. who is just tanking damage on there heavy fury setup with more damage than me on a full damage med setup.
and damage is infact too high. thats kinda the reason why people can build tanky in the 1st place. players now can outheal me. as i mentioned i am on a high damage build. and players, who are not full healers, can just swap between mist and bol spam and never die.
the game should be:
if you want to kill, you are squishy with high damage.
if you want to tank you are tanky with low damage.
as it is now you can be tanky and have super high damage.

Amksed1991

I just recently came back after about a year break and when I quit, the tank meta was on the rise.

I ended up building my MagDK as an anti-tank DoT build with Knight-Slayer and Oblivion Enchants with Resto Staff. It worked.

I noticed DoTs got nerfed as well as Oblivion damage. I wonder if DoTs were overtuned vs squishier targets and that's why they did the change. They could make DoTs the same damage on average as they are not and maybe after a certain threshold of health they start to do % damage vs the people who have 28K+ health damage builds.

Joy_Division

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

So let’s throw some ideas around on how to fix it.

Going to make some quick points
-Increase damage. Rn it’s so hard to kill players.
-Make defensive stats harder to invest in. So getting a casual 28k hp while stacking 5k wd is not possible
-Add better med damage set options. Eg, a set similar to fury, but rather than taking damage procs of dealing damage. (therefore a reason to run med)
-Nerf heavy armour. Its just too strong.
-reduce group healing through battle spirit, this way players can’t just stack heals over their entire group, and stop the players from being immortal because their 30hp isn’t constantly being topped of by a nearby healer
-punish players for running heavy. Eg reduce wd/movement speed. Because rn there are no disadvantages

THEY HAVE DONE almost ALL OF THESE, this really is a L2p issue. I kill most players with a single combo no issue. Damage is fine

l2p l2p l2p....

well then.
did you play around morrowind? because thats when i joined. back then stamblade didnt need to stot relentless on the main bar. people died from an incap and a surprise attack or 2. sure people die, but. they take ages. i can burst on my new stamdk main ez. but. i have to hit my dswing, my ult, and an execute. i have to hit a combo that can take 15? secs to set up(ult regen) to burst a player. who is just tanking damage on there heavy fury setup with more damage than me on a full damage med setup.
and damage is infact too high. thats kinda the reason why people can build tanky in the 1st place. players now can outheal me. as i mentioned i am on a high damage build. and players, who are not full healers, can just swap between mist and bol spam and never die.
the game should be:
if you want to kill, you are squishy with high damage.
if you want to tank you are tanky with low damage.
as it is now you can be tanky and have super high damage.

And that was the problem. If it's so easy to kill your opponent such that you dont even feel the need to slot one of your best skills on your main bar, that's terrible balance. By 2016 or so, all of the patches kind of blur together as one type of nerf-fest after another, but I do remember the Morrowind Patch being particularly terrible because the resource and class nerfs were so insane basically half the people on my friends list quit the game. ZOS knew it was so bad, that's when the put in the laughable "this will not be a nerf if..." in their patchnotes.

If you can burst on your new main "ez," then what's the problem? That you have to use three skills that take a whole 15 seconds to set up? Again, what's the problem? Do you just want to kill people on demand with two skills?