How do we fix the tank meta

ThePhantomThorn

Davadin wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

I play an actual heal tank with one other tank our sole purpose is to see how long we can keep a zerg occupied andsurvive. It usually end with multiple meatbags and coldfire raining down on us. The point of this comment is this: we've tanked megazergs(30-50 players) For 20 minutes, and on the other hand I've been killed by only 3 player within 1 minute. Can you guess which of those 2 groups has players who actually know what they're doing? After answering that, do you still think the issue is heavy armor/defense stats? Or maybe it truly is a "L2P" issue... If you're not talking about actual tanks and only about tanky DDs, then I don't know what to say there, as I'm a full blown-hits like a soggy wet noodle-tank. EDIT: I've been tanking in pvp for about 2 years and I actully survived better during the dotbuff patch.

there it is.

IMHO, ive been here for years, and even before Elswyer, you got full-blown-tanks pulling 10-20 people running around tower and survives....

only different with Dragonhold is DoT is nerfed and healing was still buffed from Elswyer. So ball group needs a bit more effort to break down (hint: negate), but i simply can't see "everyone in Cyro is now playing tank!" coz holy hell, i just played solo for 1hr and got around 135k AP and 40% of it is combat (not defense, keeps, etc.)

Thank you everyone for answering my post. I understand now with the definition, but im standing my ground that there is no tank meta right now. Just more people decide to build tankier so they're a little bit.... just a little bit harder to kill.

Keylun wrote: »

I don’t think it’s heavy armour that is the problem. The meta is having the front bar for attacks (any weapon) and the back bar is for buffs and defences with the shield or ice staff.

i think thats not "meta", i think thats just MMO 101.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

the tank meta is the high defence in the meta.
simply put. players build very defensively, which slows down the game and leads to decline in pvp.
not only that healing is very high making players even harder to kill.

you have played since release. can you honestly tell me that players are as hard to kill now as they have ever been?
yes players die. but they take alot longer than they should. eg, i hit my incap and bow proc. these should land and deal enough damage to bring into execute. in reality the target breaks free before incap, and dodges one if not both hits. tank meta doesnt just refer to heavy armour, it refers to all defence. a proposed fix would be to remove the cast time and add a defile and stun back onto incap. therefore the skills would land, and therefore the player would die.
on a dk it may be a little easier, with applying dots and then leaping being a little harder to avoid.
its not just one update. it has been creeping in since before i joined the game in cwc. bit by bit they nerfed damage, removed stuns, buffed healing and buffed defence.
perfect example is the elsweyr grim focus change. took off minor berserk and added on up to 15% damage mitigation. nerfing offence buffing defence.
even medium armour is really tanky. i remember in scale my stamplar (in med) had 35k resists and brp dw. it felt almost immortal. in MEDIUM ARMOUR.
everyone is running bloodspawn if not troll king. because it stops them from dying. very few players running damage monster sets these days.
think about it.
why do people all have close to 30k hp? and max resists? because if hey survive then they can just wait for an opening. then they strike, killing their opponent. sound fine... but they can tank even the higher damage builds. just turtling for several minutes before either killing or dying.
players should die, and quick.

gotcha.

but let me tell you what i've seen: not even half the people runs 30k health in Cyro. most 20-25k. medium armor can be just as tanky is not a latest-patch situation.


so personally, people can already die. maybe not as quick as the DoT meta in Elswyr......... but i really dont think it's much different.

on xbox eu most are 25 - 30k if not 30k plus. most likely building higher on my server due to lag

Dr_Ganknstein

Give us back our defiles from everything that had them removed. That includes majors that were changed to minors. Let's do that first and go from there.

Davadin

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

I play an actual heal tank with one other tank our sole purpose is to see how long we can keep a zerg occupied andsurvive. It usually end with multiple meatbags and coldfire raining down on us. The point of this comment is this: we've tanked megazergs(30-50 players) For 20 minutes, and on the other hand I've been killed by only 3 player within 1 minute. Can you guess which of those 2 groups has players who actually know what they're doing? After answering that, do you still think the issue is heavy armor/defense stats? Or maybe it truly is a "L2P" issue... If you're not talking about actual tanks and only about tanky DDs, then I don't know what to say there, as I'm a full blown-hits like a soggy wet noodle-tank. EDIT: I've been tanking in pvp for about 2 years and I actully survived better during the dotbuff patch.

there it is.

IMHO, ive been here for years, and even before Elswyer, you got full-blown-tanks pulling 10-20 people running around tower and survives....

only different with Dragonhold is DoT is nerfed and healing was still buffed from Elswyer. So ball group needs a bit more effort to break down (hint: negate), but i simply can't see "everyone in Cyro is now playing tank!" coz holy hell, i just played solo for 1hr and got around 135k AP and 40% of it is combat (not defense, keeps, etc.)

Thank you everyone for answering my post. I understand now with the definition, but im standing my ground that there is no tank meta right now. Just more people decide to build tankier so they're a little bit.... just a little bit harder to kill.

Keylun wrote: »

I don’t think it’s heavy armour that is the problem. The meta is having the front bar for attacks (any weapon) and the back bar is for buffs and defences with the shield or ice staff.

i think thats not "meta", i think thats just MMO 101.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

the tank meta is the high defence in the meta.
simply put. players build very defensively, which slows down the game and leads to decline in pvp.
not only that healing is very high making players even harder to kill.

you have played since release. can you honestly tell me that players are as hard to kill now as they have ever been?
yes players die. but they take alot longer than they should. eg, i hit my incap and bow proc. these should land and deal enough damage to bring into execute. in reality the target breaks free before incap, and dodges one if not both hits. tank meta doesnt just refer to heavy armour, it refers to all defence. a proposed fix would be to remove the cast time and add a defile and stun back onto incap. therefore the skills would land, and therefore the player would die.
on a dk it may be a little easier, with applying dots and then leaping being a little harder to avoid.
its not just one update. it has been creeping in since before i joined the game in cwc. bit by bit they nerfed damage, removed stuns, buffed healing and buffed defence.
perfect example is the elsweyr grim focus change. took off minor berserk and added on up to 15% damage mitigation. nerfing offence buffing defence.
even medium armour is really tanky. i remember in scale my stamplar (in med) had 35k resists and brp dw. it felt almost immortal. in MEDIUM ARMOUR.
everyone is running bloodspawn if not troll king. because it stops them from dying. very few players running damage monster sets these days.
think about it.
why do people all have close to 30k hp? and max resists? because if hey survive then they can just wait for an opening. then they strike, killing their opponent. sound fine... but they can tank even the higher damage builds. just turtling for several minutes before either killing or dying.
players should die, and quick.

gotcha.

but let me tell you what i've seen: not even half the people runs 30k health in Cyro. most 20-25k. medium armor can be just as tanky is not a latest-patch situation.


so personally, people can already die. maybe not as quick as the DoT meta in Elswyr......... but i really dont think it's much different.

on xbox eu most are 25 - 30k if not 30k plus. most likely building higher on my server due to lag

definitely an Xbox thing then. Maybe even an EU thing.

But PC NA here and people die. A lot. Most have 20-25k. I broke 26k on my build and i felt like im immovable.

Xvorg

Reverb wrote: »

There are only a handful of builds/playstyles in Cyrodiil right now. Glass Cannon, Bomb, LoS Speed Demon, Heal Tank, Damage Tank, or PvE-build AP feeder.

Most people hate every build/playstyle that’s not their own, and thinks every counter to their build should be nerfed. It’s exhausting.

The trick is that you can create a build or two for each playing style to learn how you could counter it, when you could counter it and which you could counter with certain builds... but most people are lazy and want to use their pet sorcs in every situation. Then they complain why that build is nerfed.

Derra

Soris wrote: »

Maybe you should stop wanting to destroy someone's build but try to improve your gameplay. Everybody is "tanky"in a way in this game if you know how to and what to do. That being said even the squishest glass cannon guy can be "tanky" as hell by avoiding damage. You can't kill someone if you can't hit them, right?

That´s precisely not what´s going on though.
"In your face" mitigation tanking is much superior and utilized much more in cyro because it is failsafe and requires much less user input or "skill".
There is a difference between a build that avoids a burst combo through active defense/kiting/los and a build that has enough effective HP (hp + mitigation) to just facetank it outright.
The difference is: One of those builds getting hit by a full combo will die.

The effective mitigation tanking method of not dying in combination with currently overtuned healing allows for an endless rinse repeat process for mitigation tanking.

The problem is that trading dmg for tankiness does not come at an equal tradeoff both in terms of sets utilized aswell as armor weight (the latter only for stamina due to how heavy attack sustain works still).

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Maybe you should stop wanting to destroy someone's build but try to improve your gameplay. Everybody is "tanky"in a way in this game if you know how to and what to do. That being said even the squishest glass cannon guy can be "tanky" as hell by avoiding damage. You can't kill someone if you can't hit them, right?

That´s precisely not what´s going on though.
"In your face" mitigation tanking is much superior and utilized much more in cyro because it is failsafe and requires much less user input or "skill".
There is a difference between a build that avoids a burst combo through active defense/kiting/los and a build that has enough effective HP (hp + mitigation) to just facetank it outright.
The difference is: One of those builds getting hit by a full combo will die.

The effective mitigation tanking method of not dying in combination with currently overtuned healing allows for an endless rinse repeat process for mitigation tanking.

The problem is that trading dmg for tankiness does not come at an equal tradeoff both in terms of sets utilized aswell as armor weight (the latter only for stamina due to how heavy attack sustain works still).

What? I’m not following.

When you say in your face mitigation are you meaning melee builds? Is that what everyone’s on about, complaining they can’t one shot people and melee works?

WreckfulAbandon

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Maybe you should stop wanting to destroy someone's build but try to improve your gameplay. Everybody is "tanky"in a way in this game if you know how to and what to do. That being said even the squishest glass cannon guy can be "tanky" as hell by avoiding damage. You can't kill someone if you can't hit them, right?

That´s precisely not what´s going on though.
"In your face" mitigation tanking is much superior and utilized much more in cyro because it is failsafe and requires much less user input or "skill".
There is a difference between a build that avoids a burst combo through active defense/kiting/los and a build that has enough effective HP (hp + mitigation) to just facetank it outright.
The difference is: One of those builds getting hit by a full combo will die.

The effective mitigation tanking method of not dying in combination with currently overtuned healing allows for an endless rinse repeat process for mitigation tanking.

The problem is that trading dmg for tankiness does not come at an equal tradeoff both in terms of sets utilized aswell as armor weight (the latter only for stamina due to how heavy attack sustain works still).

What? I’m not following.

When you say in your face mitigation are you meaning melee builds? Is that what everyone’s on about, complaining they can’t one shot people and melee works?

He's saying anyone can LOS but not every build can brawl and face tank a full combo.

ChefZero

Personally I don't like those statements about former counters to tanks (DoTs, Bleeds, Defiles) because those are superficial. Many things that got nerfed was about overperformance. There was no downside in using that stuff against non-tanky players. You can't talk about counter if that is overperfoming against everything.

Iskiab

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Maybe you should stop wanting to destroy someone's build but try to improve your gameplay. Everybody is "tanky"in a way in this game if you know how to and what to do. That being said even the squishest glass cannon guy can be "tanky" as hell by avoiding damage. You can't kill someone if you can't hit them, right?

That´s precisely not what´s going on though.
"In your face" mitigation tanking is much superior and utilized much more in cyro because it is failsafe and requires much less user input or "skill".
There is a difference between a build that avoids a burst combo through active defense/kiting/los and a build that has enough effective HP (hp + mitigation) to just facetank it outright.
The difference is: One of those builds getting hit by a full combo will die.

The effective mitigation tanking method of not dying in combination with currently overtuned healing allows for an endless rinse repeat process for mitigation tanking.

The problem is that trading dmg for tankiness does not come at an equal tradeoff both in terms of sets utilized aswell as armor weight (the latter only for stamina due to how heavy attack sustain works still).

What? I’m not following.

When you say in your face mitigation are you meaning melee builds? Is that what everyone’s on about, complaining they can’t one shot people and melee works?

He's saying anyone can LOS but not every build can brawl and face tank a full combo.

Ah okay, that makes sense. All the mitigation you really need is enough so dizzy doesn’t drop you into execute. That’s why stamwardens are deadly, if they get you with shalks + dizzy the executioner will land in execute range.

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Just keep learning bud, you will eventually get there like everyone else!

Get where?

The good players waste time defensively stalling in between attempts to one shot.
The bad players waste time defensively stalling in between attempts to zerg.

See, most of combat in the Tank Meta is spent literally wasting time, because years of nerfing offense and deleting counterplay has left this as the most efficient strategy at any marginally competitive or better level, group or solo, potatoes notwithstanding. Players only exist in two states: healing back to full, or dead. There's no pressure or momentum, less room than ever for expression of skill, hence people using words like "flat" and "stagnant."

Maybe some people like this sort of thing, but I'd wager the Tank Meta has a lot to do with what players are observing as a continued decline in PvP population. I miss the dynamic, responsive combat this game once had.

Get to a place high on the hill where you see everything in relation to each other, and realize that things seem OP but only when you don't know how to counter it. Once you figure it out, it is no longer the giant obstacle you once thought it was. I know that sounds impossible right now from your point of view, but a lot of other players before you have become enlightened and you can too if you continue on this path. Don't give up bud, you are almost there!

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

when you don't know how to counter it

So how are you, @Goregrinder, killing tanky players?

If you've got something good other than the same tedious stall, stall, burst that seemingly everyone above potato is doing, on every class and spec, I'm listening. Bonus points if it doesn't include running SnB or BRP weapons yourself.

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

when you don't know how to counter it

So how are you, @Goregrinder, killing tanky players?

If you've got something good other than the same tedious stall, stall, burst that seemingly everyone above potato is doing, on every class and spec, I'm listening. Bonus points if it doesn't include running SnB or BRP weapons yourself.

None of my builds run BRP, Master, or VMA weapons.

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

None of my builds run BRP, Master, or VMA weapons.

So how about you drop your SnB for Master DW or Master Bow and let us know how it goes?

I could care less about sets (it's pretty obvious at this point what's viable), and I'm well aware that there are a few different flavors of stalling and bursting, aside from holding block and healing until your opponent is bored enough to get hit by an Onslaught. Sure, even blocking and healing requires some skill, but so does balancing a potato on your head.

NBrookus

We do need some actual tank killer mechanics. All the ones people list didn't counter tanks, they worked against squishies even better. Knightslater and Pulsar are examples of things more powerful versus higher health, but health <> tankiness. And Shieldbreaker gives a nice damage buff to shielded targets.

Maybe what we need are a couple of new sets with bonuses like, "each light attack builds a stack of Oblivion doing x% of your target's mitigation as extra damage, up to 5 stacks." Or "while you are in combat with a player, direct critical damage does x more spell/weapon damage for each 5000 armor the target has."

If you can combat health and combat resistance by investing into it, then the cooldowns on Major Protection and Vitality sources will provide windows of opportunity for tank killing.

susmitds

The people defending the tank meta are people crutching on it. Right now, fights between good players can last ages. Before the tank meta, over three years ago, fights were much more dynamic. You couldn't facetank a full combo from any class, which is possible by all classes right now even without heavy. Also most of the people defending the tank meta, from what I see are people who started after Morrowind or later, when the tank meta was already full swing. You people never experienced the glass cannon meta.

xylena

ChefZero wrote: »

Personally I don't like those statements about former counters to tanks (DoTs, Bleeds, Defiles) because those are superficial. Many things that got nerfed was about overperformance. There was no downside in using that stuff against non-tanky players. You can't talk about counter if that is overperfoming against everything.

Bleeds and Defiles were very effective at punishing players for trying to sit there blocking and healing. They were not great against damage shield Magicka builds that didn't rely on healing quickly, even less so before shields were changed (with no resistance to ignore, Bleeds did less damage than normal DoTs). They also struggled against cloak spam NBs, which could suppress Bleeds and outmaneuver defiles with stealthed Rally crits, as well as any Templar that knew how to deal damage and not blow their whole mag pool panic purging.

They could've buffed purge options for solos and pugs, but instead we got wave after wave of sweeping nerfs, and now the system is a mess. That's why I'm advocating to restore anti-tank counterplay, not slam us with more sweeping nerfs that'll probably just leave solo and pug PvPers unable to self heal at all, and somehow ruin PvE tanking in the process. That said, still not gonna shed a tear if they added a stacking cost effect to holding block in PvP, or completely gutted PvP group healing.

ThePhantomThorn

susmitds wrote: »

The people defending the tank meta are people crutching on it. Right now, fights between good players can last ages. Before the tank meta, over three years ago, fights were much more dynamic. You couldn't facetank a full combo from any class, which is possible by all classes right now even without heavy. Also most of the people defending the tank meta, from what I see are people who started after Morrowind or later, when the tank meta was already full swing. You people never experienced the glass cannon meta.

Yep 🙂

Xvorg

NBrookus wrote: »

We do need some actual tank killer mechanics. All the ones people list didn't counter tanks, they worked against squishies even better. Knightslater and Pulsar are examples of things more powerful versus higher health, but health <> tankiness. And Shieldbreaker gives a nice damage buff to shielded targets.

Maybe what we need are a couple of new sets with bonuses like, "each light attack builds a stack of Oblivion doing x% of your target's mitigation as extra damage, up to 5 stacks." Or "while you are in combat with a player, direct critical damage does x more spell/weapon damage for each 5000 armor the target has."

If you can combat health and combat resistance by investing into it, then the cooldowns on Major Protection and Vitality sources will provide windows of opportunity for tank killing.

Bleeds were OK as tank killer options, but buffing them at the point they used to be could be a huge mistake. Maybe we should include an option in which bleeds affect the most players in HA rather than medium or light

NBrookus

Xvorg wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

We do need some actual tank killer mechanics. All the ones people list didn't counter tanks, they worked against squishies even better. Knightslater and Pulsar are examples of things more powerful versus higher health, but health <> tankiness. And Shieldbreaker gives a nice damage buff to shielded targets.

Maybe what we need are a couple of new sets with bonuses like, "each light attack builds a stack of Oblivion doing x% of your target's mitigation as extra damage, up to 5 stacks." Or "while you are in combat with a player, direct critical damage does x more spell/weapon damage for each 5000 armor the target has."

If you can combat health and combat resistance by investing into it, then the cooldowns on Major Protection and Vitality sources will provide windows of opportunity for tank killing.

Bleeds were OK as tank killer options, but buffing them at the point they used to be could be a huge mistake. Maybe we should include an option in which bleeds affect the most players in HA rather than medium or light

It's not heavy armor, though. You can be absurdly tanky in medium, particularly stam necro and stam warden

Xvorg

NBrookus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

We do need some actual tank killer mechanics. All the ones people list didn't counter tanks, they worked against squishies even better. Knightslater and Pulsar are examples of things more powerful versus higher health, but health <> tankiness. And Shieldbreaker gives a nice damage buff to shielded targets.

Maybe what we need are a couple of new sets with bonuses like, "each light attack builds a stack of Oblivion doing x% of your target's mitigation as extra damage, up to 5 stacks." Or "while you are in combat with a player, direct critical damage does x more spell/weapon damage for each 5000 armor the target has."

If you can combat health and combat resistance by investing into it, then the cooldowns on Major Protection and Vitality sources will provide windows of opportunity for tank killing.

Bleeds were OK as tank killer options, but buffing them at the point they used to be could be a huge mistake. Maybe we should include an option in which bleeds affect the most players in HA rather than medium or light

It's not heavy armor, though. You can be absurdly tanky in medium, particularly stam necro and stam warden

True, but I don't want to apply the easy solution, making bleeds scale off resistances

Cathexis

I see a lot of posts reading through that address the issue as a sort of counter situation, which to some degree it plays a part, but countering is an issue related to the focus of fighting tanks, not the tank meta. When you look at countering to tanks, it presupposes the idea of a rock paper scissors dynamic - but in practicality it's more to do with the dividing lines between rock/paper/scissors being too distinct. It does no good to fight a tank and die to the rest of a group because the meta dictates an obtuse and impractical counter build for general fighting. Having to choose between fighting a tank and fighting generally is impractical at a balance level, even if it is strategically favourable at a hypothetical level.

Rikumaru

susmitds wrote: »

The people defending the tank meta are people crutching on it. Right now, fights between good players can last ages. Before the tank meta, over three years ago, fights were much more dynamic. You couldn't facetank a full combo from any class, which is possible by all classes right now even without heavy. Also most of the people defending the tank meta, from what I see are people who started after Morrowind or later, when the tank meta was already full swing. You people never experienced the glass cannon meta.

Literally this ^^

The game was so much better when everyone was squishy and extremely burstable but yet could survive if you played it correctly.

Kadoin

They can start by removing healing that has no investment other than stacking HP like HP% heals and taking a look at a few proc sets that give hp% return, mag return, and stam return. But even more so, they should be looking at shield ult and resto ult - both two OP ults in my opinion (along with onslaught), with all three ults contributing to the problem.

Oh and bloodspawn.

Uh oh, I sense a powerful opposition...

EDIT: Oh, and can't forget the great idea to put stackable resistances in potions. Even though the same patch nerfed lingering which effectively did the same thing or less if you were defiled and/or did not have enough healing done/recieved stacked Another example of how damage reduction and healing are both two sides of the same exact coin, and both will contribute to the problem

Jabbs_Giggity

MajBludd wrote: »

I'm sure a lot run heavy but I dont think it's as many as we might think. A lot use med for more mobility.

Is it heavy armor itself that needs looked at or specific sets that actually contribute to this "tank meta"?

IMO, it's a mixture of both, depending on which class you play.

Heavy Armor sets just flat our over perform in comparison to available medium armor sets. For example, Fury. Now, I use Fury and love it - but I bypass it being a HA build by equipping the jewelry and 2 armor pieces. This gives me great WD, but still able to use MA passives. Some classes stack two HA sets though, and benefit on both HA Passives/Defense + a LOT of WD...

Going to HA, in general - The passives can really be over performing for certain specs like Stam DK's because of the increased healing from the passives paired with Major Mending from Class-skill. Constitution passive, paired with the Revitalize passive is a bit redundant, in a way. However, these passives pair well with sets like Fury, and more-so with Stam DK's running low sustain but High WD/Defense.

IMO Major Mending should come from only 2 places - Class Ults, Resto Staff. I am not opposed to HA Passive being left with increased healing received.

The problem is that ZOS nerfed the hell outta all the counters to HA/Tank/DPS/blah blah builds, buffed healing and reduced damage in general.

mague

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

It is as with guns. It is what you make out of it. The topic is not the tank meta, it is the trolltank meta. And the solution would be to gift them social awareness in 2019.

I do not play tank meta, i even dropped my Pariah. But even i dont want to punish every tanky player just because some ruin the fun and nerves of everyone.

Snatchez

I don’t think heavy is the problem, it’s the passive healing from brp resto staves and the rapid healings being spammed by ball groups. I play a medium armor Nord stam dk and feel I’m plenty tanky enough without heavy.

Xvorg

Rikumaru wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The people defending the tank meta are people crutching on it. Right now, fights between good players can last ages. Before the tank meta, over three years ago, fights were much more dynamic. You couldn't facetank a full combo from any class, which is possible by all classes right now even without heavy. Also most of the people defending the tank meta, from what I see are people who started after Morrowind or later, when the tank meta was already full swing. You people never experienced the glass cannon meta.

Literally this ^^

The game was so much better when everyone was squishy and extremely burstable but yet could survive if you played it correctly.

You can still survive in a non tanky set up

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

None of my builds run BRP, Master, or VMA weapons.

So how about you drop your SnB for Master DW or Master Bow and let us know how it goes?

I could care less about sets (it's pretty obvious at this point what's viable), and I'm well aware that there are a few different flavors of stalling and bursting, aside from holding block and healing until your opponent is bored enough to get hit by an Onslaught. Sure, even blocking and healing requires some skill, but so does balancing a potato on your head.

lmao I run resto staff back bar.

xylena

Xvorg wrote: »

You can still survive in a non tanky set up

You can, there's always rolling and cloaking, shielding and streaking, or kiting and LoS-ing. But you'll be using the same strategy of wasting time stalling in between one shot attempts, watching the enemy heal back to full every time your burst comes up short. There's no building momentum or gradually pressuring your enemy's health bar and resources, because the things that did that have been nerfed or removed. It would probably be more accurate to call this a "Stall Meta" than a "Tank Meta," but that's the term that people recognize.

Building for passive mitigation, holding SnB block, and spamming heals is still the most idiot-proof and lag-proof strategy in PvP. It's easy enough that bad players can keep themselves alive until it's zerg time, and it's powerful enough that good players are winning dueling tournaments with it. The saddest part is, giving up Master DW or Master Bow for a defensive back bar used to be significant, but since Twin Slashes and Poison Arrow have been mangled along with back bar DoTs in general, there's little reason not to run back bar SnB (or BRP weapons).

Xvorg

xylena wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

You can still survive in a non tanky set up

You can, there's always rolling and cloaking, shielding and streaking, or kiting and LoS-ing. But you'll be using the same strategy of wasting time stalling in between one shot attempts, watching the enemy heal back to full every time your burst comes up short. There's no building momentum or gradually pressuring your enemy's health bar and resources, because the things that did that have been nerfed or removed. It would probably be more accurate to call this a "Stall Meta" than a "Tank Meta," but that's the term that people recognize.

Building for passive mitigation, holding SnB block, and spamming heals is still the most idiot-proof and lag-proof strategy in PvP. It's easy enough that bad players can keep themselves alive until it's zerg time, and it's powerful enough that good players are winning dueling tournaments with it. The saddest part is, giving up Master DW or Master Bow for a defensive back bar used to be significant, but since Twin Slashes and Poison Arrow have been mangled along with back bar DoTs in general, there's little reason not to run back bar SnB (or BRP weapons).

That makes me consider, isn't the tank meta a consequence of lag? I mean, in a lagless environment would people still embrace that meta or will just build towards dmg, relying for defense in his(her own skill?

I think the answer is the second. Good players in a good environment would find a way to kick asses