How do we fix the tank meta

Davadin

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

So let’s throw some ideas around on how to fix it.

Going to make some quick points
-Increase damage. Rn it’s so hard to kill players.

no it isn't.

its hard but 9 out of 10 people in CP Cyro is definitely "killable" solo.

-Nerf heavy armour. Its just too strong.

my 1-h 6-med with Troll King is tankier than the generic 7-heavy/5-1-1 with Fury/7th Leg or whatever.

Heavy needs a buff if anything.

again, im running medium.

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

That's a loaded statement that implies there is a problem with the "tank" meta. There isn't....it's a L2P issue.

Learn to waste time blocking and healing until you've got enough on your side to zerg?

jadarock

Davadin wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

So let’s throw some ideas around on how to fix it.

Going to make some quick points
-Increase damage. Rn it’s so hard to kill players.

no it isn't.

its hard but 9 out of 10 people in CP Cyro is definitely "killable" solo.

-Nerf heavy armour. Its just too strong.

my 1-h 6-med with Troll King is tankier than the generic 7-heavy/5-1-1 with Fury/7th Leg or whatever.

Heavy needs a buff if anything.

again, im running medium.

We have battle spirit not sure why they dont use it to reign in the power creep for both damage and heals...

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

That's a loaded statement that implies there is a problem with the "tank" meta. There isn't....it's a L2P issue.

Learn to waste time blocking and healing until you've got enough on your side to zerg?

Out of the different ways people learned to deal with tankier targets, that is certainly one of those ways, yes. I'd also suggest learning the other ways to do it. It's actually pretty amazing what people can actually accomplish when they actually try to learn something new, they will do things they never thought was possible before.

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

I'd also suggest learning the other ways to do it.

Learn to waste time blocking and healing in between attempts to land a one shot wombo combo?

I guess you can also waste time rolling and cloaking, or shielding and streaking.

MrGhosty

In GW2, they have two types of pvp available. A world vs world where your skills are (mostly) the same as PvE with armor and traits having a big impact and then for smaller scale more "competitive" pvp they actually remove a lot of the variables by providing flat stats to weapons and armor, a toned down class selection and then a spread of options for some stat sets. All of these things are heavily tuned and balanced with the benefit of these changes rarely touching the other aspects of the game. Playing it still feels impactful (class identity) and there is still a fluctuating meta but on balance is a much more polished feeling experience. This is something ESO could benefit from I feel, with a system like the one I mentioned it is much easier to introduce incremental tuning passes without contending with the fact you are making player's gear and investments worthless and reduces the impact such tuning also have in other parts of the game.

The WvW gametype is far more chaotic due to the nature of allowing fully customized builds, with only the most out performing skills/traits getting tweaked. Even then, those changes rarely cross over to PvE.

The aspect I enjoyed about the sPvP with standardized stats is that a level one player can go into it and on paper be competitive with a max level player and the only factor that affects who wins and loses is reliant on player skill and understanding of skills and tactics without completely weighting it so the newcomer has no chance. That feels like a nice curve that rewards clever planning and skill without completely smothering someone just coming in. Bgs for the most part feel like a step in that direction, as a primarily PvE player it's actually got me playing pvp again since the cost for losing a fight isn't a 20 minute horseride back to the fight while dodging gankers.

In regards to cyro, I think they should ramp up the chaos. WvWvW seems like an impossibility to balance and I miss the days when you would have to repell dragon leaps onto the keep walls and other insanity.

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

I'd also suggest learning the other ways to do it.

Learn to waste time blocking and healing in between attempts to land a one shot wombo combo?

I guess you can also waste time rolling and cloaking, or shielding and streaking.

Just keep learning bud, you will eventually get there like everyone else!

Davadin

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

defense is too easy to build into, and offense has far more diminishing returns.

this sums the whole thread.

if u just bring back the DoTs a bit more (between now and Elswyr?) both on the duration, the skills, the quantity, the perks... everything...

then u'll see those tanks melt into a puddle of DK poison....


but now, for example, my DK is a poor man's stamSorc/StamPlar....

Davadin

Goregrinder wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

I'd also suggest learning the other ways to do it.

Learn to waste time blocking and healing in between attempts to land a one shot wombo combo?

I guess you can also waste time rolling and cloaking, or shielding and streaking.

Just keep learning bud, you will eventually get there like everyone else!

oh lol

Cathexis

Goregrinder wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

That's a loaded statement that implies there is a problem with the "tank" meta. There isn't....it's a L2P issue.

Naw, it's really not. It's been a key talking point for many, many patches. It's a conversation about the overarching quality of competitive combat, about how excessive tanking makes it flat, it has nothing to do with learning about it.

Learn how to play against tankier targets, once you do your life will become easier my friend.

I know how to play against tanker targets. That's not really the problem being discussed. The issue is the degree to which the effectiveness of tanking slows the overall combat meta. It's reasonable to conclude that if the overwhelming sense is that tanking is drawing out engagement in combat to a senseless degree, that that's not good for the overarching combat experience.

Let me give you an example, if I'm at a keep and there's let's say like 4 of us there, and a zerg of 30 shows up. Were disorganized, but experiences players. The impact of survivability, specifically innate survivability can be so high that, even if we were to systematically dismantle opponents who do not defend themselves at peak efficiency, we would not be able to counterplay the group.

That's a stagnant combat situation. It doesn't promote combat... And you might say "well one side is bigger so the rules should say they win" but that is antithetical to the nature of PvP, in that you want to encourage engagement not stagnate it.

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

Just keep learning bud, you will eventually get there like everyone else!

Get where?

The good players waste time defensively stalling in between attempts to one shot.
The bad players waste time defensively stalling in between attempts to zerg.

See, most of combat in the Tank Meta is spent literally wasting time, because years of nerfing offense and deleting counterplay has left this as the most efficient strategy at any marginally competitive or better level, group or solo, potatoes notwithstanding. Players only exist in two states: healing back to full, or dead. There's no pressure or momentum, less room than ever for expression of skill, hence people using words like "flat" and "stagnant."

Maybe some people like this sort of thing, but I'd wager the Tank Meta has a lot to do with what players are observing as a continued decline in PvP population. I miss the dynamic, responsive combat this game once had.

ThePhantomThorn

tbh id like to see more proc sets again. theyre fun. the issue is they dont work. all nerfed to the ground. viper went from a huge instant burst to a measly 4 sec dot.
zos. at least make them viable.

and i see this all the time.
somthings op?
NERF TO THE GROUND
zos needs to understand that doing huge sweeping nerfs are not the best answer. just try to find a middle ground. where something is good, but not op.

Davadin

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

NBrookus

xylena wrote: »

The good players waste time defensively stalling in between attempts to one shot.
The bad players waste time defensively stalling in between attempts to zerg.

See, most of combat in the Tank Meta is spent literally wasting time, because years of nerfing offense and deleting counterplay has left this as the most efficient strategy at any marginally competitive or better level, group or solo, potatoes notwithstanding. Players only exist in two states: healing back to full, or dead. There's no pressure or momentum, less room than ever for expression of skill, hence people using words like "flat" and "stagnant."
<snip>
I miss the dynamic, responsive combat this game once had.

Amen.

The sheer amount of burst damage out there now makes running without strong heals and defense a recipe for getting one shot. 8k burning talons. 10k ignites. 12k shackles. 15k molten whips. These are all normal damage values for me in moderately defensive builds. Then there are things like the 25k cold stone treb single shots.

Of COURSE people are going to build tanky with that much damage rolling around. Nevermind the lag delay trying to get your heal/potion/bar swap/buff/shield/dodge/whatever you need to respond to an incoming damage spike.

I miss when there were playstyles other than burst or die. When fighting was a matter of outplaying and countering your opponent in multiple steps, instead of tank-tank-tank-burst.

xylena

Davadin wrote: »

What is the tank meta?

The Tank Meta refers to a game environment that heavily favors playing defensively, with viable offensive gameplay increasingly limited each update. Right now, even a marginally competitive tanky individual or group is going to keep mitigating damage and healing back to full until you one shot them, or zerg them. This only further encourages stalling fights, either waiting for the enemy to drop their guard, or waiting for your allies to arrive and outnumber them to death. The skilled individual or group landing AoE bombs and the guys mashing buttons in zergs both spend most of the fight doing the same thing: wasting time.

The Tank Meta refers to a game environment where wasting time is most often a better strategy than trying to kill your enemy. This is the result of years worth of nerfs to DoT abilities, Bleed mechanics, Defile strength and uptime, stun abilities, offensive sustain, and melee Ultimates. It constrains skill expression at every scale and scope of PvP, save for potato mashing or zerging (you can still do whatever you want if your opponent is clueless enough or vastly outnumbered). The PvP population continues to decline, and it's not just poor server performance, it's bad gameplay.

We must break the Tank Meta.

Iskiab

Davadin wrote: »

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

Tank meta is mainly from players who, quite frankly, aren’t very good at pvp and only use their spammables. Their damage can easily be countered with hots, get blown up in seconds, and can’t understand why it feels like they aren’t doing any damage.

Most would be shocked to learn most of the people they’re fighting are wearing light and medium armour and stacking damage stats. There are enough out there to convince each other the problem isn’t each other.

‘Tankiness’ is only effective if it’s up to the environment where you’re playing. If it’s solo or BGs, it requires just enough so you don’t get bursted. If it’s cyrodiil then it means a lot more because the burst from 12+ players is a lot more.

Past the required tankiness it’s always about stacking damage stats for more pressure and healing.

The ‘tank meta’ is code for ‘why does it feel like I’m doing no damage’ or ‘why can’t I kill anyone without investing anything in defense’?

ThePhantomThorn

Davadin wrote: »

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

the tank meta is the high defence in the meta.
simply put. players build very defensively, which slows down the game and leads to decline in pvp.
not only that healing is very high making players even harder to kill.

you have played since release. can you honestly tell me that players are as hard to kill now as they have ever been?
yes players die. but they take alot longer than they should. eg, i hit my incap and bow proc. these should land and deal enough damage to bring into execute. in reality the target breaks free before incap, and dodges one if not both hits. tank meta doesnt just refer to heavy armour, it refers to all defence. a proposed fix would be to remove the cast time and add a defile and stun back onto incap. therefore the skills would land, and therefore the player would die.
on a dk it may be a little easier, with applying dots and then leaping being a little harder to avoid.
its not just one update. it has been creeping in since before i joined the game in cwc. bit by bit they nerfed damage, removed stuns, buffed healing and buffed defence.
perfect example is the elsweyr grim focus change. took off minor berserk and added on up to 15% damage mitigation. nerfing offence buffing defence.
even medium armour is really tanky. i remember in scale my stamplar (in med) had 35k resists and brp dw. it felt almost immortal. in MEDIUM ARMOUR.
everyone is running bloodspawn if not troll king. because it stops them from dying. very few players running damage monster sets these days.
think about it.
why do people all have close to 30k hp? and max resists? because if hey survive then they can just wait for an opening. then they strike, killing their opponent. sound fine... but they can tank even the higher damage builds. just turtling for several minutes before either killing or dying.
players should die, and quick.

WreckfulAbandon

BRP DW and resto. They're 2 pc sets that not only offer more mitigation than most (all?) 5pc sets but to add insult to injury they have 1 pc bonuses after ZOS removed 1 pc bonus from vMA and Arena weapons

Honestly the game isn't in a terrible place and you should be able to build tanky, but it's just a little too easy to build tanky rn

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

the tank meta is the high defence in the meta.
simply put. players build very defensively, which slows down the game and leads to decline in pvp.
not only that healing is very high making players even harder to kill.

you have played since release. can you honestly tell me that players are as hard to kill now as they have ever been?
yes players die. but they take alot longer than they should. eg, i hit my incap and bow proc. these should land and deal enough damage to bring into execute. in reality the target breaks free before incap, and dodges one if not both hits. tank meta doesnt just refer to heavy armour, it refers to all defence. a proposed fix would be to remove the cast time and add a defile and stun back onto incap. therefore the skills would land, and therefore the player would die.
on a dk it may be a little easier, with applying dots and then leaping being a little harder to avoid.
its not just one update. it has been creeping in since before i joined the game in cwc. bit by bit they nerfed damage, removed stuns, buffed healing and buffed defence.
perfect example is the elsweyr grim focus change. took off minor berserk and added on up to 15% damage mitigation. nerfing offence buffing defence.
even medium armour is really tanky. i remember in scale my stamplar (in med) had 35k resists and brp dw. it felt almost immortal. in MEDIUM ARMOUR.
everyone is running bloodspawn if not troll king. because it stops them from dying. very few players running damage monster sets these days.
think about it.
why do people all have close to 30k hp? and max resists? because if hey survive then they can just wait for an opening. then they strike, killing their opponent. sound fine... but they can tank even the higher damage builds. just turtling for several minutes before either killing or dying.
players should die, and quick.

Players do die and quick. Players only need to build enough to not die every time they’re stunned. The reason why they build this way is because it’s common sense, how will you ever kill anyone if you die by someone sneezing at you.

Constantly nerfing ways to mitigate damage will only result in players building to be tankier.

So in your example, you’re a Stamblade I take it attacking from stealth? Being able to not get ganked in pvp isn’t a bad thing, it’s a pvp requirement. If you think people will ever build so they’d be gank fodder you’re deluded, no one in their right mind would create a build where they can be killed with no counter play.

Reverb

There are only a handful of builds/playstyles in Cyrodiil right now. Glass Cannon, Bomb, LoS Speed Demon, Heal Tank, Damage Tank, or PvE-build AP feeder.

Most people hate every build/playstyle that’s not their own, and thinks every counter to their build should be nerfed. It’s exhausting.

Nord_Raseri

Soris wrote: »

Maybe you should stop wanting to destroy someone's build but try to improve your gameplay. Everybody is "tanky"in a way in this game if you know how to and what to do. That being said even the squishest glass cannon guy can be "tanky" as hell by avoiding damage. You can't kill someone if you can't hit them, right?

If you gonna destroy in-your-face style tanking, then you gotta destroy line of sight, rollypollies, damage shields, cloak, streak etc. Which is a terrible idea to begin with. They are just different ways of playing "defensive" and most of them dont require stat investing at all. Line of sight for example.

A nb dodgerolling then going in cloak and attack from cloak with his high burst is basically the same thing in different color with a dk face tanking you until he stack his furry and then leap on you. See what im saying?

Second this^

Nord_Raseri

I play an actual heal tank with one other tank our sole purpose is to see how long we can keep a zerg occupied andsurvive. It usually end with multiple meatbags and coldfire raining down on us. The point of this comment is this: we've tanked megazergs(30-50 players) For 20 minutes, and on the other hand I've been killed by only 3 player within 1 minute. Can you guess which of those 2 groups has players who actually know what they're doing? After answering that, do you still think the issue is heavy armor/defense stats? Or maybe it truly is a "L2P" issue... If you're not talking about actual tanks and only about tanky DDs, then I don't know what to say there, as I'm a full blown-hits like a soggy wet noodle-tank. EDIT: I've been tanking in pvp for about 2 years and I actully survived better during the dotbuff patch.

WildRaptorX

I don’t think it’s heavy armour that is the problem. The meta is having the front bar for attacks (any weapon) and the back bar is for buffs and defences with the shield or ice staff. Even mag users are running bloodspawn now for the extra resistances.

I don’t think there is a solid solution because it’s how people play, not game numbers etc. I think the only way to change the meta is to give users a more fun way of playing by introducing more weapons and weapon skill lines

Infectious1X

@ThePhantomThorn Not surprised to see this coming from a Stamblade. “Incap > bow proc > exec > dead.” All of this in a matter of seconds from stealth no less? That’s not healthy gameplay either.

Low damage isn’t the issue. The real issue is how easily players can come back from soaking a tremendous amount of damage. It all comes down to self healing and how even 2 seconds is enough to go from 10% to full (looking at you magplars).

Get low? Dodge vigor dodge. SnB block til full. Stack 3 shields with hots to boot.... PvP is just a constant tug of war with too much burst damage as well as too much healing (strange, it’s like as if healing scales with weapon/spell damage, hmm...)

This is why either defile needs to be more accessible and available to every class, or you reduce the effectiveness that healing scales with weapon/spell power.

Qbiken

Infectious1X wrote: »

@ThePhantomThorn Not surprised to see this coming from a Stamblade. “Incap > bow proc > exec > dead.” All of this in a matter of seconds from stealth no less? That’s not healthy gameplay either.

Low damage isn’t the issue. The real issue is how easily players can come back from soaking a tremendous amount of damage. It all comes down to self healing and how even 2 seconds is enough to go from 10% to full (looking at you magplars).

Get low? Dodge vigor dodge. SnB block til full. Stack 3 shields with hots to boot.... PvP is just a constant tug of war with too much burst damage as well as too much healing (strange, it’s like as if healing scales with weapon/spell damage, hmm...)

This is why either defile needs to be more accessible and available to every class, or you reduce the effectiveness that healing scales with weapon/spell power.

Except that incap will rarely hit because zos decided that cast times on ultimates were a good idea. If you want to combat the tank meta, one of the first actions is to get rid of cast times on ultimates.

ATomiX69

We just need more sources of defiles (major and minor), but preferably with short duration so you actually need to reapply it every 4 seconds or so and on targeted single target abilties which arent bundled together with CC and tons of dmg (see old incap, which got nerfed to the point of almost being useless).
A bit unrelated to this topic, but also remove cast times from ultimates, find some other way to "balance ultimates", it *** with the combat flow of the game and makes it unfun. There is already enough delay comming from the trashy performance of the game, no need for further delays through cast times (at least on ultimates).

Infectious1X

Qbiken wrote: »

Infectious1X wrote: »

@ThePhantomThorn Not surprised to see this coming from a Stamblade. “Incap > bow proc > exec > dead.” All of this in a matter of seconds from stealth no less? That’s not healthy gameplay either.

Low damage isn’t the issue. The real issue is how easily players can come back from soaking a tremendous amount of damage. It all comes down to self healing and how even 2 seconds is enough to go from 10% to full (looking at you magplars).

Get low? Dodge vigor dodge. SnB block til full. Stack 3 shields with hots to boot.... PvP is just a constant tug of war with too much burst damage as well as too much healing (strange, it’s like as if healing scales with weapon/spell damage, hmm...)

This is why either defile needs to be more accessible and available to every class, or you reduce the effectiveness that healing scales with weapon/spell power.

Except that incap will rarely hit because zos decided that cast times on ultimates were a good idea. If you want to combat the tank meta, one of the first actions is to get rid of cast times on ultimates.

I agree that cast times should be removed, but you act as if it’s one of the leading causes of the current meta. Even when I land successful soul harvests, it’s still not enough to bring in a kill.

Like I said, a player can take a tremendous beating nearly instantly, but can instantly recover from it, even if the ult was successful. That’s the issue. Lower burst just a bit and remove this “tug of war” crap we currently have. PvP should be about whittling someone down through higher damage output than healing output, either through sustained damage or through multiple series of bursts, not this “burst instantly and die, or just barely survive and instantly recover.”

ThePhantomThorn

Infectious1X wrote: »

@ThePhantomThorn Not surprised to see this coming from a Stamblade. “Incap > bow proc > exec > dead.” All of this in a matter of seconds from stealth no less? That’s not healthy gameplay either.

Low damage isn’t the issue. The real issue is how easily players can come back from soaking a tremendous amount of damage. It all comes down to self healing and how even 2 seconds is enough to go from 10% to full (looking at you magplars).

Get low? Dodge vigor dodge. SnB block til full. Stack 3 shields with hots to boot.... PvP is just a constant tug of war with too much burst damage as well as too much healing (strange, it’s like as if healing scales with weapon/spell damage, hmm...)

This is why either defile needs to be more accessible and available to every class, or you reduce the effectiveness that healing scales with weapon/spell power.

nope. magsorc main atm. just giving an example.
and healing is indefinably one of the reasons for this meta. its caused because of zos removing defiles. and stuns on burst skills. remember when frags and incap stunned?
see atm in the example i provided, you hit fear then hit incap. due to cast time, the ult rarely lands, and the bow proc that is also delayed doesnt hit either. the stun and defile on incap would mean that burst could hit. then execute. and with defile you could not heal up.

and another issue is that bleeds are affected by resistances. pre scale bleeds would melt tanks, now...
tbh as i have said before, increasing the burst damage of proc sets would also help to kill the tankys faster.

xylena

Iskiab wrote: »

Constantly nerfing ways to mitigate damage will only result in players building to be tankier.

There have been very few nerfs to PvP mitigation or healing, while the best ways to counter tanky players (DoTs, Bleeds, Defiles) have all been nerfed into the ground or outright deleted. Burst damage potential remains high though, so we're in this awkward situation where you can't really punish the enemy for wasting time blocking and healing, but you can certainly punish them with a one shot combo should they stop blocking and healing. This horribly skews the risks and rewards in favor of staying defensive, constraining build diversity and skill expression.

Maybe if they nerfed certain aspects of mitigation and healing, players would actually have to make meaningful build choices between being tanky and dealing damage, or being tanky and healing their group. Back bar SnB or BRP weapons give any build tremendous defensive capabilities, with little to no sacrifice or additional investment required. SnB and the BRP Resto in particular compound the problem, as they allow one to effectively stall one or several enemies focusing them while also healing their whole group. Now keep stacking players doing this...

The Tank Meta isn't just Heavy Armor, SnB, or BRP weapons though. This is the result of years worth of nerfs to DoT abilities, Bleed mechanics, Defile strength and uptime, stun abilities, offensive sustain, and melee Ultimates. Entire chunks of tactics and counterplay are just gone, so good and bad players alike are left stalling and waiting for their chance to one shot or zerg. Most of combat is spent wasting time, with good and bad players doing the same thing. Maybe certain aspects of mitigation and healing do need to be nerfed, but it's more important to un-nerf the tools we once had to counter stalling.

Davadin

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

I play an actual heal tank with one other tank our sole purpose is to see how long we can keep a zerg occupied andsurvive. It usually end with multiple meatbags and coldfire raining down on us. The point of this comment is this: we've tanked megazergs(30-50 players) For 20 minutes, and on the other hand I've been killed by only 3 player within 1 minute. Can you guess which of those 2 groups has players who actually know what they're doing? After answering that, do you still think the issue is heavy armor/defense stats? Or maybe it truly is a "L2P" issue... If you're not talking about actual tanks and only about tanky DDs, then I don't know what to say there, as I'm a full blown-hits like a soggy wet noodle-tank. EDIT: I've been tanking in pvp for about 2 years and I actully survived better during the dotbuff patch.

there it is.

IMHO, ive been here for years, and even before Elswyer, you got full-blown-tanks pulling 10-20 people running around tower and survives....

only different with Dragonhold is DoT is nerfed and healing was still buffed from Elswyer. So ball group needs a bit more effort to break down (hint: negate), but i simply can't see "everyone in Cyro is now playing tank!" coz holy hell, i just played solo for 1hr and got around 135k AP and 40% of it is combat (not defense, keeps, etc.)

Thank you everyone for answering my post. I understand now with the definition, but im standing my ground that there is no tank meta right now. Just more people decide to build tankier so they're a little bit.... just a little bit harder to kill.

Keylun wrote: »

I don’t think it’s heavy armour that is the problem. The meta is having the front bar for attacks (any weapon) and the back bar is for buffs and defences with the shield or ice staff.

i think thats not "meta", i think thats just MMO 101.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

ok. I've bee playing MOST nights in PC NA since before (North) Elsweyr was released. I've cycled through 3 campaigns in Kaalgrontiid in PC NA.



I guess I'll pop the elephant in the room.


What is the tank meta?

Sure, some people survive better after the DoT nerf, but I was online nearly every night, and still... I killed a lot, I died a lot, I dueled a lot, I zerged and got zerged a lot.... SURE I feel like I can runaway a bit better but 9 out of 10 times when somebody getting focused by more than 3 people (which is 90% of action in Cyro), they will die.

They will.

The rare exceptions is probably the pure tank build running around a castle in an rss, the ball group throwing heals and necro ult that die when they got negated, and the rank40+ sorc that can runaway faster than you can say "sorc!".


So WHY, for the love of Vivec, is everyone in the forum are UP IN ARMS on the whole TANK META idea?

Is it more BG? Is it more specific class? Is it EU? Is it specific times of the day that this is happening, coz I sure hell don't see a HUGE change.

Disclaimer: I play mostly solo in PC NA Kaalgron between 10PM - 2AM EST.

the tank meta is the high defence in the meta.
simply put. players build very defensively, which slows down the game and leads to decline in pvp.
not only that healing is very high making players even harder to kill.

you have played since release. can you honestly tell me that players are as hard to kill now as they have ever been?
yes players die. but they take alot longer than they should. eg, i hit my incap and bow proc. these should land and deal enough damage to bring into execute. in reality the target breaks free before incap, and dodges one if not both hits. tank meta doesnt just refer to heavy armour, it refers to all defence. a proposed fix would be to remove the cast time and add a defile and stun back onto incap. therefore the skills would land, and therefore the player would die.
on a dk it may be a little easier, with applying dots and then leaping being a little harder to avoid.
its not just one update. it has been creeping in since before i joined the game in cwc. bit by bit they nerfed damage, removed stuns, buffed healing and buffed defence.
perfect example is the elsweyr grim focus change. took off minor berserk and added on up to 15% damage mitigation. nerfing offence buffing defence.
even medium armour is really tanky. i remember in scale my stamplar (in med) had 35k resists and brp dw. it felt almost immortal. in MEDIUM ARMOUR.
everyone is running bloodspawn if not troll king. because it stops them from dying. very few players running damage monster sets these days.
think about it.
why do people all have close to 30k hp? and max resists? because if hey survive then they can just wait for an opening. then they strike, killing their opponent. sound fine... but they can tank even the higher damage builds. just turtling for several minutes before either killing or dying.
players should die, and quick.

gotcha.

but let me tell you what i've seen: not even half the people runs 30k health in Cyro. most 20-25k. medium armor can be just as tanky is not a latest-patch situation.


so personally, people can already die. maybe not as quick as the DoT meta in Elswyr......... but i really dont think it's much different.