How do we fix the tank meta

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

lmao I run resto staff back bar.

Bonus points! So how are you killing tanky players?

xylena

Xvorg wrote: »

That makes me consider, isn't the tank meta a consequence of lag?

There was just as much lag during the 1.6 glass cannon meta. Cyro is still full of stalling and healing during low-pop hours. High-MMR BGs are still low-scoring defensive struggles. The Tank Meta is a consequence of a combat system where playing defensively is low effort, low counterplay, low risk, high reward.

jadarock

xylena wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

That makes me consider, isn't the tank meta a consequence of lag?

There was just as much lag during the 1.6 glass cannon meta. Cyro is still full of stalling and healing during low-pop hours. High-MMR BGs are still low-scoring defensive struggles. The Tank Meta is a consequence of a combat system where playing defensively is low effort, low counterplay, low risk, high reward.

I completely disagree the lag is worse for me now it's not even close

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

lmao I run resto staff back bar.

Bonus points! So how are you killing tanky players?

Here's the first clue: PVP in ESO is not a solo game.

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

Here's the first clue: PVP in ESO is not a solo game.

The strategy doesn't really change for organized groups. Waste time running around the walls or tower in a ball of heal and purge spam. Periodically attempt one shot AoE bomb. It's the same stagnant stall, stall, burst at every scale and competitive level in the Tank Meta. I'd rather sit on a meatbag.

Or were you suggesting I just zerg?

Raudgrani

Are these supposed tanks actually killing you, or are they just hard to kill? Some people seems to think they are "skilled", because they are hard to kill, yet they don't do any harm at all - they don't kill anyone, they don't walk into enemy keeps and burn siege (like I used to with my tank), they don't go through the gate and heal/revive others trying to make it through. They just stand there like some shameless masochists, who enjoy getting slapped on their butts. Don't do it.

Goregrinder

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Here's the first clue: PVP in ESO is not a solo game.

The strategy doesn't really change for organized groups. Waste time running around the walls or tower in a ball of heal and purge spam. Periodically attempt one shot AoE bomb. It's the same stagnant stall, stall, burst at every scale and competitive level in the Tank Meta. I'd rather sit on a meatbag.

Or were you suggesting I just zerg?

Zergs may have numbers, but don't always coordinate. Communication is key, if you want to successfully dominate.

xylena

Raudgrani wrote: »

Are these supposed tanks actually killing you, or are they just hard to kill? Some people seems to think they are "skilled", because they are hard to kill, yet they don't do any harm at all - they don't kill anyone, they don't walk into enemy keeps and burn siege (like I used to with my tank), they don't go through the gate and heal/revive others trying to make it through. They just stand there like some shameless masochists, who enjoy getting slapped on their butts. Don't do it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. It's not hard to build tanky while still dealing damage or offering group support anymore. Potatoes don't need to be considered in discussions on competitive balance.

ThePhantomThorn

Raudgrani wrote: »

Are these supposed tanks actually killing you, or are they just hard to kill? Some people seems to think they are "skilled", because they are hard to kill, yet they don't do any harm at all - they don't kill anyone, they don't walk into enemy keeps and burn siege (like I used to with my tank), they don't go through the gate and heal/revive others trying to make it through. They just stand there like some shameless masochists, who enjoy getting slapped on their butts. Don't do it.

yes they are.
fury and seventh or clever alch. stacking a massive amount of wd. and having rediculous defense.

im going to be honest.
cp is a major cause of this. in no cp / bgs players have less max hp to chew through, less infinate sustain, and less healing.
there are still those tanky players in nocp but it is a major improvement from cp.
and one of the reasons people can stack so many damage sets in heavy is they dont need sustain, they get it all from cp. in nocp most builds would struggle to sustain in a seventh and fury setup.

i think tanks being in pvp is ok. but tanks shouldnt be able to kill you.
we need a glass cannon meta.

Xvorg

Raudgrani wrote: »

Are these supposed tanks actually killing you, or are they just hard to kill? Some people seems to think they are "skilled", because they are hard to kill, yet they don't do any harm at all - they don't kill anyone, they don't walk into enemy keeps and burn siege (like I used to with my tank), they don't go through the gate and heal/revive others trying to make it through. They just stand there like some shameless masochists, who enjoy getting slapped on their butts. Don't do it.

A tank is supposed to be a heavy bulletproof cart with a huge cannon and a regular to high speed (depending on conditions)

So players that look for tankiness and dmg resemble more of a real tank than we could believe xD

Iskiab

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

xylena

Goregrinder wrote: »

Zergs may have numbers, but don't always coordinate. Communication is key, if you want to successfully dominate.

Dominate what? Resource towers? Against another competitive coordinated group, nobody dies (see: high MMR BGs). Against disorganized pugs, you can fight greater numbers of them up to a point, but the zerg will eventually win. The more passively tanky players are regardless of their combat skill, the more effective it becomes to simply throw bodies at the problem. If you want to successfully dominate in the Tank Meta, then you zerg.

ThePhantomThorn

Iskiab wrote: »

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

thats a good point.
as a nb / sorc main when i get killed by a uber tanky player its always because ot that stun into leap, or dawnbreaker.
though thats not the only issue, i think that will actually be a set in the right direction.
the only downside is that tanky players would be really hard to kill.

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

thats a good point.
as a nb / sorc main when i get killed by a uber tanky player its always because ot that stun into leap, or dawnbreaker.
though thats not the only issue, i think that will actually be a set in the right direction.
the only downside is that tanky players would be really hard to kill.

I’d have to be tested to make sure it doesn’t suck, but tanky players also rely on attrition to people’s stamina to kill people.

They might be really hard to kill, I could see tanks running upstairs in Cyro to pour oil a lot, but they’d also be pretty ineffective.

The approach to kill the ‘tank meta’ has always backfired to date. Any changes they make hurts glass builds more then tanks I think. Like right now light armour is barely playable... unless you’re a sorc.

ThePhantomThorn

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

thats a good point.
as a nb / sorc main when i get killed by a uber tanky player its always because ot that stun into leap, or dawnbreaker.
though thats not the only issue, i think that will actually be a set in the right direction.
the only downside is that tanky players would be really hard to kill.

I’d have to be tested to make sure it doesn’t suck, but tanky players also rely on attrition to people’s stamina to kill people.

They might be really hard to kill, I could see tanks running upstairs in Cyro to pour oil a lot, but they’d also be pretty ineffective.

The approach to kill the ‘tank meta’ has always backfired to date. Any changes they make hurts glass builds more then tanks I think. Like right now light armour is barely playable... unless you’re a sorc.

yeah.
the issue is that very few people use the pts. im on console so i cant test it. and i know a lot of pc players dont because they just leave it to others.

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

thats a good point.
as a nb / sorc main when i get killed by a uber tanky player its always because ot that stun into leap, or dawnbreaker.
though thats not the only issue, i think that will actually be a set in the right direction.
the only downside is that tanky players would be really hard to kill.

I’d have to be tested to make sure it doesn’t suck, but tanky players also rely on attrition to people’s stamina to kill people.

They might be really hard to kill, I could see tanks running upstairs in Cyro to pour oil a lot, but they’d also be pretty ineffective.

The approach to kill the ‘tank meta’ has always backfired to date. Any changes they make hurts glass builds more then tanks I think. Like right now light armour is barely playable... unless you’re a sorc.

yeah.
the issue is that very few people use the pts. im on console so i cant test it. and i know a lot of pc players dont because they just leave it to others.

Last time there was big changes I played about 4 BGs. They only happen right after the patch. There are always people dueling, but that’s it.

JinxxND

Iskiab wrote: »

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

[snip] You even say that tanks KILL people by stunning them and small scale tanky ult dumpers as you refer to them. So you think taking away something that kills is a good idea?

Edit for bait.

JinxxND

The problem is literally anything that kills people in PvP is complained about here and nerfed and that is why we have the current tank meta run by groups with healers. People instead of L2P against simple mechanics to avoid dying tend to whine and complain and now most forms of killing people have been nerfed to the ground.

Examples of this were bleeds bypassing resistances nerfed, Oblivion damage nerfed, damage abilities with cc's attached nerfed, damage from skill lines like sword and board nerfed, major defile on skills like reverb/incap nerfed, dual wield enchants nerfed, aoe damage on skills cost increased and nerfed. The list goes on and on.

Not saying that everything that got nerfed didn't deserve it but at the same time instead of looking at stuff that has no forms of counter play that screams nerf vs. something that is strong but has multiple forms of counter play that gets nerfed cause people refuse to L2P and go on the forums to complain. Hence why we are in a tank meta and we have people on the forums now saying we should removes stuns because they think that's a great idea.

Iskiab

JinxxND wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Someone else mentioned they wish they’d just remove stuns from the game. I think it’s a great idea.

If you really want to get rid of the tank meta then remove stuns. Tanks will never be able to kill anyone, and small scale tanky Ult dumpers rely on stuns and a buggy break free to kill people.

I’ve only been playing for a year and a half maybe (since summerset) but since I’ve been playing the OP class has always been the one with the buggiest stun, then people spam it.

[snip] You even say that tanks KILL people by stunning them and small scale tanky ult dumpers as you refer to them. So you think taking away something that kills is a good idea?

Edit for bait.

Yes, tanks have issues killing people. Dps do not. To get rid of the tank meta, if that’s the goal, should be to stop tanks from being able to kill people. Trying to nerf defense doesn’t work, people will just go tankier as long as they can succeed being tanky.

JinxxND

Taking away stuns isn't gonna help the tank meta, that doesn't even make any sense stuns are the only thing that kill people at this point.

You want more things that can kill people not take them away.

JinxxND

The tank meta is because damage was nerfed across the board and healing was left unchecked with the amounts of damage mitigation in the game. Taking away stuns would make the tank meta 10x worse removing burst windows, especially right now since dots have been nerfed into the ground. You would have no way to pressure anyone without stuns and stop healing. It would become even more of a zergfest and numbers game and who has more healing and people which is why the game is in one of the worse spots it has ever been.

Iskiab

JinxxND wrote: »

The tank meta is because damage was nerfed across the board and healing was left unchecked with the amounts of damage mitigation in the game. Taking away stuns would make the tank meta 10x worse removing burst windows, especially right now since dots have been nerfed into the ground. You would have no way to pressure anyone without stuns and stop healing. It would become even more of a zergfest and numbers game and who has more healing and people which is why the game is in one of the worse spots it has ever been.

Maybe you’re right. Tank Zergs would still be strong, but no doubt people would spec more glassy. I mean; if two tanks meet they can’t kill each other. People are hypocritical, they spec like a tank then complain when it doesn’t work 1v1.

Does anyone even spec as a full dps? Full damage sets and bloodspawn is considered glassy if you’re in 5x light, think about it.

Rianai

Gankers do go full dmg. The problem is that going full dmg doesn't only lack survivability. Lack of sustain is another issue that limits the option to go fully offensive on non gank builds. There are multiple factors that contribute to this "tank" meta. Nerfs to dmg and sustain (which indirectly nerfed dmg), buffs to healing, op defensive sets that lack offensive counterparts, lags and bugs - all this contributes to the current meta. And ideally everything needs to be adressed. Which is unfortunately not going to happen.

And removing CC is certainly not the way to go.

JinxxND

A lot of people do go full damage cause it's the only way to kill people esp if they have a healer or even just off heals, The problem is that there is no forms of pressure left in the game now that they nerfed every single form of damage or way to kill people in the game. Dots that once were used to create pressure and mitigate heals now do next to no damage. Also building full damage makes your heals extremely strong which ends up makes you very tanky as well without having any defensive forms of mitigation.

Notice the top classes atm with magplar and magsorc have all their kit untouched as well for some broken mechanics like streak having 0 counter play now. Magsorc pressure ability in curse isn't even considered a dot so it wasn't nerfed like every dot in the game and hits with direct damage numbers on top of being ranged. Then they have an unblockable ranged aoe stun that has 0 counter play with every other ability in the game for them considered direct damage. Magplar have access to the best heals in the game which are still extremely strong on top of having stuff like jabs which isn't considered a dot so that never got hit with the nerf hammer on top of a gapcloser stun and one of the few burst ultimates in the game that didn't receive a cast time for whatever reason.

Not trying to make this a nerf thread but people need to understand the real problems behind the issues causing the meta. There are a lot of ways they can go about fixing this such as nerfing healing but with their terrible track record of changes it would probably lead to a meta of solo/small groupers getting screwed for not having a healer and fights ending with whoever does damage first because healing would be awful going back to the problem of empowering zergs even further.

technohic

Lol I am glad players dont develop the game. Talk about making things worse.

Without stuns, and burst; you do realize you'll never kill not only tanky players, but anyone with a burst heal or shields to stack.

ZarkingFrued

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

So the tank meta has been plaguing eso pvp for a long time. And now they have ridiculous heals aswell.

So let’s throw some ideas around on how to fix it.

Going to make some quick points
-Increase damage. Rn it’s so hard to kill players.
-Make defensive stats harder to invest in. So getting a casual 28k hp while stacking 5k wd is not possible
-Add better med damage set options. Eg, a set similar to fury, but rather than taking damage procs of dealing damage. (therefore a reason to run med)
-Nerf heavy armour. Its just too strong.
-reduce group healing through battle spirit, this way players can’t just stack heals over their entire group, and stop the players from being immortal because their 30hp isn’t constantly being topped of by a nearby healer
-punish players for running heavy. Eg reduce wd/movement speed. Because rn there are no disadvantages

Only thing that needs adjusted is healbot style healing IN PVP. That's literally it. Group heals only.

Joy_Division

How to fix the tank meta?

By not listening to the same whiny players who are largely responsible for putting us here in the first place.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Seperate damage and healing stats e.g. max stat for heals, damage for damage.

technohic

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Seperate damage and healing stats e.g. max stat for heals, damage for damage.

That would certainly benefit your playstyle now wouldnt it?

GRXRG

I don't know about big zergs in cyrodiil, but in battlegrounds and open world random encounters there is a crazy high burst meta.
Many people running Snipe morphs and hit for 7-8k even if you have decent resistances and then switch to 2H and finish you off if you come in melee somehow.
I don't have a problem with thanks being unkillable, but at the same time doing zero damage. I have a problem with nasty 5-6k weapon damage builds with 30k resists or more able to tank all your damage and at the same time shot you in 3 or 4 skills.