How do we fix the tank meta

Iskiab

GRXRG wrote: »

I don't know about big zergs in cyrodiil, but in battlegrounds and open world random encounters there is a crazy high burst meta.
Many people running Snipe morphs and hit for 7-8k even if you have decent resistances and then switch to 2H and finish you off if you come in melee somehow.
I don't have a problem with thanks being unkillable, but at the same time doing zero damage. I have a problem with nasty 5-6k weapon damage builds with 30k resists or more able to tank all your damage and at the same time shot you in 3 or 4 skills.

Those aren’t usually high resists builds. They just have high stats leading to high healing through vigor and hots. Major defile works well against, especially DKs.

Cathexis

Goregrinder wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

lmao I run resto staff back bar.

Bonus points! So how are you killing tanky players?

Here's the first clue: PVP in ESO is not a solo game.

Ya because an overwhelming number of nerfherders ruined it.

"____________ is killing me! It must be overpowered!" Now we have pool noodle wars.

xylena

Iskiab wrote: »

Those aren’t usually high resists builds. They just have high stats leading to high healing through vigor and hots. Major defile works well against, especially DKs.

The first part of this is correct, but Defiles are no longer effective due to nerfed strength, availability, and uptime.

StaticWave

Phrases like "infinite sustain" or "overpowered" often make your case very unconvincing. Heavy armor has not been a problem for quite some time now, given that none of its passives provide any damage buffs. Most heavy armor damage sets have also been nerfed or reworked to the point of being unfavorable by many stamina players as well. The problem is not with heavy armor, but with multiple sources of damage that could counter heavy armor, such as bleeds, oblivion damage, being nerfed too much. Furthermore, the increased self-healing and loss of universal major defile source also contributed to the tank meta that we see today. As many players have stated, you can still be as tanky in light or medium armor if you do some theorycrafting. Therefore it's not heavy armor, but a multitude of changes that shaped the current meta.

StaticWave

Moreover, defensive maneuvers such as rolling/blocking/line of sighting, are always more effective than just face tanking people. I'm speaking from experience because unless you build full tank with 60k HP and zero damage, you're not going to face tank 4+ players in a conventional "tank" build that can actually kill people. Most of them incorporate rolls/line of sight/blocking into their defense, which is why they can survive multiple players. Better yet, you can always try making a "tank" build and see how well you do face tanking 4+ opponents.

xylena

StaticWave wrote: »

Moreover, defensive maneuvers such as rolling/blocking/line of sighting, are always more effective than just face tanking people.

For solo damage builds trying to fight outnumbered, yea, but it's not unusual for tanky healbots to stall 2-3 guys focusing them while also healing their group.

MartiniDaniels

xylena wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Moreover, defensive maneuvers such as rolling/blocking/line of sighting, are always more effective than just face tanking people.

For solo damage builds trying to fight outnumbered, yea, but it's not unusual for tanky healbots to stall 2-3 guys focusing them while also healing their group.

Maybe ZOS could introduce non-linear healing scaling, at least for "healing done". Then to be able to notably heal others, players will be forced to run full glass cannon builds and it will be job of organized PVP groups to protect healers and tank for them. As for the solo players, they can go with "healing received" which won't require to be glass cannon to be healed properly.

xylena

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Maybe ZOS could introduce non-linear healing scaling, at least for "healing done". Then to be able to notably heal others, players will be forced to run full glass cannon builds and it will be job of organized PVP groups to protect healers and tank for them. As for the solo players, they can go with "healing received" which won't require to be glass cannon to be healed properly.

Yea, there definitely needs to be a lot more tradeoff between being tanky and effectively healing your group. PvP healing and tanking should be distinct roles that you really have to build for, just like in PvE. There's any number of ways ZOS could accomplish this, here's hoping they can do it and not butcher self healing or PvE healing in the process.

vamp_emily

I think they should have class specific sets, and make some sets not compatible with others.

Not sure if that sounds like it will solve any issues but maybe.

JumpmanLane

Buff DOTs! Buff bleeds. Buff Oblivion damage. OR Revert the nerfs to DOTs, bleeds, and Oblivion damage. Problem solved.

TheBonesXXX

Penetration is your friend.

CompM4s

Mass amounts of l2p

TheBonesXXX

Make bleeds great again.

technohic

Fix lag. I'd much rather have more damage built but tonight I had to go to a heavier load out because I couldn't break free, and I couldnt get out of roots even with roll dodge. Getting to my forward momentum was iffy as well. Once people can react in a more damage oriented build, maybe it wont be so bad.

EtTuBrutus

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nerf "healing done" on battle spirit level. This will solve whole ton of problems and this easy tweak without ruining classes/item sets.

There are huge holes in that.

MartiniDaniels

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nerf "healing done" on battle spirit level. This will solve whole ton of problems and this easy tweak without ruining classes/item sets.

There are huge holes in that.

What holes? This will remove tanky builds with good self-healing as well as reduce group healing. So there will be 4 types of builds:
- tank - you can tank but you can't outheal damage from dps/balanced builds
- dps - you can do a lot of damage, but you can't tank damage with healing
- healer - if you want to heal effectively, all your sets must be healing sets
- balanced/solo - you can do everything, but less effectively then specialized builds

Kadoin

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nerf "healing done" on battle spirit level. This will solve whole ton of problems and this easy tweak without ruining classes/item sets.

There are huge holes in that.

What holes? This will remove tanky builds with good self-healing as well as reduce group healing. So there will be 4 types of builds:
- tank - you can tank but you can't outheal damage from dps/balanced builds
- dps - you can do a lot of damage, but you can't tank damage with healing
- healer - if you want to heal effectively, all your sets must be healing sets
- balanced/solo - you can do everything, but less effectively then specialized builds

I don't even use healing done cp...so guess it will nerf everyone else.

I approve of this idea! Please, ZOS take this action! Don't nerf the HoTs you buffed by about 30% across the board!

To be honest, nothing will stop anyone from tanking if they want to. Sure won't stop me from healing just as effectively pre and post any nerf. Can't wait for everyone else to get nerfed though!

Kel

I hope everyone in this thread realizes we as players are 1000% to blame for this "tank meta".

1000%

We cried about poisons....gutted
We cried about defile....gutted
We cried about oblivion damage....gutted
We cried about bleeds....gutted

This is what you get for asking for nerfs. Now if a group has a healer, it takes at least 3 players to bring it down. Now damage just can't keep up with outgoing healing, and groups are just stacking tanky healers. Now you're seeing 40k health tanks who can hardly be scratched because they can just shrug off your 6k weapon damage while hitting you with a broken Invigorating Drain leaving you unable to break free and getting rolled over.

Remember when people died in PvP? Sure you do, your ego couldn't handle it, so you cried for nerfs. Bring death back to PvP!

We asked for this meta by asking for nerfs.
And we've still learned NOTHING.

STOP👏
ASKING👏
FOR👏
NERFS👏

Y'all need to be slapped across your face.....

xylena

Kadoin wrote: »

To be honest, nothing will stop anyone from tanking if they want to. Sure won't stop me from healing just as effectively pre and post any nerf.

But you wouldn't have both at once, which is the current problem.

xylena

Kel wrote: »

STOP👏
ASKING👏
FOR👏
NERFS👏

NEVER NERF ANYTHING!!! SCREW BALANCE!!! POWER CREEP RULES!!!

Nerfs aren't inherently a bad thing. Badly implemented nerfs for bad reasons are the problem. Nobody in this thread is asking for the sort of badly implemented blanket nerfs to blocking and healing that would make PvP solos and pugs unable to self heal or PvE tanks unable to function. We just want PvP combat to not be the garbage you yourself described.

Un-nerfing DoTs/Bleeds/Defiles would be a good start, but that alone wouldn't address how disgusting PvP group healing is. A proper nerf to PvP group healing would only actually nerf zerging. Solos and skilled groups would be fine. Bad groups relying on stacking healbots and outnumbering the enemy on the flags would rightfully wipe to outnumbered pugs.

Iskiab

xylena wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

STOP👏
ASKING👏
FOR👏
NERFS👏

NEVER NERF ANYTHING!!! SCREW BALANCE!!! POWER CREEP RULES!!!

Nerfs aren't inherently a bad thing. Badly implemented nerfs for bad reasons are the problem. Nobody in this thread is asking for the sort of badly implemented blanket nerfs to blocking and healing that would make PvP solos and pugs unable to self heal or PvE tanks unable to function. We just want PvP combat to not be the garbage you yourself described.

Un-nerfing DoTs/Bleeds/Defiles would be a good start, but that alone wouldn't address how disgusting PvP group healing is. A proper nerf to PvP group healing would only actually nerf zerging. Solos and skilled groups would be fine. Bad groups relying on stacking healbots and outnumbering the enemy on the flags would rightfully wipe to outnumbered pugs.

It’d be a large buff to organized groups.

As an example, the patch where dots were at their strongest was the patch when my guild homicide was at its strongest.

Nerf cross healing and it’ll nerf Zergs, but mainly the casual players and Zerg surfers. Right now we go down at around 3x+ in numbers, that patch we were taking out whole factions.

xylena

Iskiab wrote: »

It’d be a large buff to organized groups. Nerf cross healing and it’ll nerf Zergs, but mainly the casual players and Zerg surfers.

Yes, it will be a buff to skilled outnumbered players, and a nerf to zerging.

Strong organized groups will be rewarded more for taking risks to quickly kill the enemy, and less for stalling.

Weak organized groups would no longer be able to force flip keeps by avoiding PvP and heal blobbing the flags.

technohic

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nerf "healing done" on battle spirit level. This will solve whole ton of problems and this easy tweak without ruining classes/item sets.

There are huge holes in that.

What holes? This will remove tanky builds with good self-healing as well as reduce group healing. So there will be 4 types of builds:
- tank - you can tank but you can't outheal damage from dps/balanced builds
- dps - you can do a lot of damage, but you can't tank damage with healing
- healer - if you want to heal effectively, all your sets must be healing sets
- balanced/solo - you can do everything, but less effectively then specialized builds

It's already like that for the most part. Nerfing healing done would just reduce that 1 part across the board.

mursie

delete CP

xylena

technohic wrote: »

It's already like that for the most part. Nerfing healing done would just reduce that 1 part across the board.

Tank and Healer are the same thing in PvP now. The days of useless 50k HP troll tank DKs are long gone. You can be just as tanky on a Heavy SnB/Resto build, get 35k HP without even trying, and heal your whole group while also endlessly stalling the 2-3 guys focusing you just by rotating block healing, defensive ult, and tripots. It's easiest on Templar, but really any class can be set up this way, ironically except DK who can't reliably burst heal allies while SnB blocking.

TL;DR tanky healbots make PvP bad. If you don't want nerfs then give us Oblivion Siege like that one patch.

Iskiab

xylena wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

It’d be a large buff to organized groups. Nerf cross healing and it’ll nerf Zergs, but mainly the casual players and Zerg surfers.

Yes, it will be a buff to skilled outnumbered players, and a nerf to zerging.

Strong organized groups will be rewarded more for taking risks to quickly kill the enemy, and less for stalling.

Weak organized groups would no longer be able to force flip keeps by avoiding PvP and heal blobbing the flags.

Issue I see with that is it will create two kinds of pvpers:
- organized dominant ones
- food

In general I think anything that discourages new players would be bad for the game, meaning bad for everyone. If someone works shift work for example so can’t commit to a schedule and runs solo. They’ll never be competitive and will get discouraged and quit, cyrodiil population will decline.

Ball groups and organized groups usually fight each other and negate each other. For a thriving pvp game it needs to be able to accommodate everyone including Zerg surfers.

Noctus

the tankmeta punishes newcommers and only rewards people that are in premade teams and pub stomping. someone who wanna enjoy pvp wont care if he dies alot aslong as he can do also some kills.

tankmeta destroys skillplay. blockhealing is not skillfull but rolldodging in the right moment and timed blocking evading ground effects is. currently u can just ignore everything aslong as u cuddle up with ur 3 other healbuddys.

someone who plays a glasscannon has to actively evade and deflect everything with his timing and also need good timing to kill anyone its the most skillfull way to play so why the *** are tankbuilds facerolling everyone.

u gotta realize dmg mitigation + heal it goes hand in hand ur not just dpsing against the heals ur also dpsing against their 40 k resistances. now imagine u meet a group of 4 ppl that has such builds .

the biggest problem currently seems snb blocking on templars sorcs and wardens.

no matter how skillfull u are u wont kill 1 of those guys if they run in a group they will outheal ur dmg ur better of attacking one in their group that doesnt run heavy armor and is a dps which is against any logic i know from other games usually u first go for the healer but in this game..... its weird. idk what the devs were thinking.

they took away tactical teamplay that way. there is no need to protect the healer a dedicated tank is useless the way they designed it thats why some sets will never be used like the pvp set that reduces the dmg towards ur team and increases the dmg towards you when u taunt a player.

finally i wanna talk about ttk. low ttk rewards fast reactions and decisionmaking high ttk rewards teamfocusing. the lower the ttk the more skillfull play will be rewarded. this is the logic that every long time shooter player noticed especially in destiny 2 it became obvious even for younger generations. destiny 2 pvp when it was high ttk was atrocious ppl tickled each other from across the map and formed a "deathball" lowering the ttk rly opened up tactical play.
im comparing here apples to bananas but u get the idea.

i think eso would be far better of with more limited resources of stamina and magicka. so u rly gotta think about how to use it best and not waste it. at the moment some classes can just rolldodge forever and healtanks have *** of resources to burn through.

Iskiab

Noctus wrote: »

the tankmeta punishes newcommers and only rewards people that are in premade teams and pub stomping. someone who wanna enjoy pvp wont care if he dies alot aslong as he can do also some kills.

tankmeta destroys skillplay. blockhealing is not skillfull but rolldodging in the right moment and timed blocking evading ground effects is. currently u can just ignore everything aslong as u cuddle up with ur 3 other healbuddys.

someone who plays a glasscannon has to actively evade and deflect everything with his timing and also need good timing to kill anyone its the most skillfull way to play so why the *** are tankbuilds facerolling everyone.

u gotta realize dmg mitigation + heal it goes hand in hand ur not just dpsing against the heals ur also dpsing against their 40 k resistances. now imagine u meet a group of 4 ppl that has such builds .

the biggest problem currently seems snb blocking on templars sorcs and wardens.

no matter how skillfull u are u wont kill 1 of those guys if they run in a group they will outheal ur dmg ur better of attacking one in their group that doesnt run heavy armor and is a dps which is against any logic i know from other games usually u first go for the healer but in this game..... its weird. idk what the devs were thinking.

they took away tactical teamplay that way. there is no need to protect the healer a dedicated tank is useless the way they designed it thats why some sets will never be used like the pvp set that reduces the dmg towards ur team and increases the dmg towards you when u taunt a player.

finally i wanna talk about ttk. low ttk rewards fast reactions and decisionmaking high ttk rewards teamfocusing. the lower the ttk the more skillfull play will be rewarded. this is the logic that every long time shooter player noticed especially in destiny 2 it became obvious even for younger generations. destiny 2 pvp when it was high ttk was atrocious ppl tickled each other from across the map and formed a "deathball" lowering the ttk rly opened up tactical play.
im comparing here apples to bananas but u get the idea.

i think eso would be far better of with more limited resources of stamina and magicka. so u rly gotta think about how to use it best and not waste it. at the moment some classes can just rolldodge forever and healtanks have *** of resources to burn through.

That’s the thing, I don’t think TTK is high. What happens with ball groups is damage attacks that target multiple people have more lag associated with them, or get lost with packet loss and require hitting them multiple times.

You can see it in BGs, one person caught alone by three is toast. It’s not just CPs that’s making a difference.

Reduce the TTK more to promote skilled gameplay and what’ll happen is people will tank up more, and less damage will be required by multiple people to take one person out.

Your line of thinking is what’s lead to the current state of the game. Tanky players grouping up to take people out with ults, bombs/coordinated burst taking out groups of players at a time, and solo players feeling like they’re ineffective and mostly free AP.

Edit - one issue I think that people are missing is the effect of group buffs on pvp. Most solo players, especially 1vXers, run tankier builds then ball groups do.

technohic

xylena wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It's already like that for the most part. Nerfing healing done would just reduce that 1 part across the board.

Tank and Healer are the same thing in PvP now. The days of useless 50k HP troll tank DKs are long gone. You can be just as tanky on a Heavy SnB/Resto build, get 35k HP without even trying, and heal your whole group while also endlessly stalling the 2-3 guys focusing you just by rotating block healing, defensive ult, and tripots. It's easiest on Templar, but really any class can be set up this way, ironically except DK who can't reliably burst heal allies while SnB blocking.

TL;DR tanky healbots make PvP bad. If you don't want nerfs then give us Oblivion Siege like that one patch.

Ok but you're talking healing done. That hurts the more than just a tank healbot. Unless you guys are talking healing done to others, but that still impacts more than just a heal tank.

xylena

technohic wrote: »

Ok but you're talking healing done. That hurts the more than just a tank healbot. Unless you guys are talking healing done to others, but that still impacts more than just a heal tank.

Specifically nerfing healing done to other players (not self healing) in PvP would be one way to address overtuned PvP group healing, but there are any number of ways that could be accomplished. The important thing for players to repeatedly let ZOS know that overtuned PvP group healing makes for bad PvP, and hope ZOS figures out the best solution.