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Once Again; BRP Resto and DW both need to be nerfed.
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Ozby✭✭✭✭✭Once again "no they do not" they are already nearly useless all together in PVEPC NA
Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro).6 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭Dude, its the same 5-6 people complaining about these sets over and over and over, all from the same discord chat, and it's getting old. I can see how they would be annoying in Cyrodil, and I get the frustration, but you can't have every single set that gives someone an advantage nerfed. It just starts a whole new chain reaction that ends with yet another post to nerf yet another set, and nothing ever changes. People will ALWAYS find something to crutch on, no matter how much you take away. The only thing you can do to equalize things is to just give everyone nothing but sticks and see how much faster one person can wave theirs at the other.
In the interest of working with the nerflings however, since they always seem to eventually get their way in this game, what if the staff skill got changed to only affect another player, rather than potentially the one who cast it? That way, it would require a pocket healer to receive the buff, which could be easily killed before killing the dd, since pocket healer wouldn't have the benefit of the buff. This would allow it to still be used in PvE where it's not "hurting" anyone's gameplay.
Actually the entire crux of small scale players want both of these nerfed. I would not expect a zerg healer to understand.1 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The post isn't even about 1% of all available sets yet people start to yell at OP how he wants to remove every single thing from the game.
Everyone trying to defend brp dw and resto at this point should just be brushed off with "ok boomer"
There's no point listing the arguments again for people who can't grasp that 30% more healing/ less damage taken on demand with no cooldown is unbalanced8 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.14 -
SirDopey✭✭✭✭✭
✭The post isn't even about 1% of all available sets yet people start to yell at OP how he wants to remove every single thing from the game.
Everyone trying to defend brp dw and resto at this point should just be brushed off with "ok boomer"
There's no point listing the arguments again for people who can't grasp that 30% more healing/ less damage taken on demand with no cooldown is unbalanced
Maybe you should look at your Fan Boy's other posts and you'll start to see that when whenever they get killed by someone/something more than once it's a warcry of NERF NERF NERFNA PC | AD
xx Doc Holliday xx7 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The post isn't even about 1% of all available sets yet people start to yell at OP how he wants to remove every single thing from the game.
Everyone trying to defend brp dw and resto at this point should just be brushed off with "ok boomer"
There's no point listing the arguments again for people who can't grasp that 30% more healing/ less damage taken on demand with no cooldown is unbalanced
If OP provided some high-MMR or organized PVP raid footage where combat is in stalemate because nobody can kill anybody because of this sets - this will be arguments. But he just claimed that he can't farm newbies in Cyro anymore and called for a new wave of nerfs.6 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are two healing buffs. We need another healing debuff to balance things out.1 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?7 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?
Yes, I did, and you clearly didn’t read it. I already addressed your counter-argument before you even made it. You look like a fool.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?
Yes, I did, and you clearly didn’t read it. I already addressed your counter-argument before you even made it. You look like a fool.
Healers use BRP resto in vSS because healing has taken nothing but nerfs since the trial released. You can’t just state the opposite of facts to make your argument sound valid.Edited by WrathOfInnos on November 14, 2019 4:10AM12 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?
Yes, I did, and you clearly didn’t read it. I already addressed your counter-argument before you even made it. You look like a fool.
Healers use BRP resto in vSS because healing has taken nothing but nerfs since the trial released. You can’t just state the opposite of facts to make your argument sound valid.
Healing Ward: Super Buffed
Springs: Buffed (in use for cages)
Radiant Regeneration: Super Buffed
Orb was nerfed, but with the buffs to the other three it is absolutely not needed.
I have healed vSS HM. It is ridiculously easy now. If using Brose Resto, with a spring down before they head in, you can heal them out in one vine after using healing ward. You can easily complete it without Brose resto, which is exactly what I stated in the OP.
Your belief that you need Brose resto for vSS resembles what is likely a build issue. I suggest looking up a prominent good healer on YouTube, such as @stileanima or Heals the Feels so you may better adjust your build to healing cages.2 -
chris211✭✭✭✭typical responses expected of the forums the fact is brp dual wield and reso are busted and are huge carries
Interesting how this person makes this response and immediately follows it up by suggesting to remove bow from the game, seemingly entirely from the game.also remove bow from the game
Just ponder that for a moment.
lmao that was a joke1 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭with the buffs to healing
What buffs were there? I could solo heal most of vHoF before the springs gutting and people would think their were still two healers. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that now with the tooltip for Healing Springs and Illustrious being lower, and only being able to have one out at a time.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |2 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭What? I thought DW had been nerfed to near uselessness already. I don’t even have any DW abilities currently slotted on my Bow/DW stamblade. I’ve not measured the damage myself, but Alcast’s stamblade build no longer includes any DW abilities either.
Any good player could 1vX 5 Alcasts. He is 100% irrelevant to PVP.2 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭Expected responses.
The fact of the matter is both weapons are carries. Taking up a set piece matters not when you build correctly around the weapons. Both weapons consistently allow bad players to have extended survivability beyond what they themselves are actually capable of.
Yeah but so does everything in ESO lol. Nerf this and here comes that. Just run the weapons and have fun. Games not even close to balanced, and you can out cheese their cheese1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Then bring back old pirate skeleton and steadfast hero if you think both brps are ok, if not both weapons need double cooldown at least, or like someone said before. Don't nerf the sources just nerf major protection and major vitality on its own. Reduce these effects to 20% and bring back old pirate skeleton and steadfast hero. Stop holding to your cheese.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Like title says. They both make it possible for players of severely inferior skill level to survive MUCH longer then they are supposed to. Major Vitality uptime cannot be that consistent from any other source in the game, and the same goes with Major Protection especially with the (rightful) Pirate and Steadfast nerfs.
It honestly baffles me how these two obviously over-performing weapons have still been untouched. Every good player understands they are over-performing and you can do perfectly fine without them, but with them you become virtually unkillable. Furthermore, with the buffs to healing, Lokestiiz HM has become much easier to heal, to the point where BRP resto is absolutely not needed anymore to successfully heal cages. There is no legitimate reason for these to not get nerfed ZOS.
I read that, and I laughed and laughed and laughed.
The audacity to decide, without Any knowledge of the other character's build or skills or gear or tactics or experience are - That one could decide AS A MATTER OF FACT that the opponent's character is "surviving much longer than they are SUPPOSED to."
The mind wobbles
7 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭barney2525 wrote: »Like title says. They both make it possible for players of severely inferior skill level to survive MUCH longer then they are supposed to. Major Vitality uptime cannot be that consistent from any other source in the game, and the same goes with Major Protection especially with the (rightful) Pirate and Steadfast nerfs.
It honestly baffles me how these two obviously over-performing weapons have still been untouched. Every good player understands they are over-performing and you can do perfectly fine without them, but with them you become virtually unkillable. Furthermore, with the buffs to healing, Lokestiiz HM has become much easier to heal, to the point where BRP resto is absolutely not needed anymore to successfully heal cages. There is no legitimate reason for these to not get nerfed ZOS.
I read that, and I laughed and laughed and laughed.
The audacity to decide, without Any knowledge of the other character's build or skills or gear or tactics or experience are - That one could decide AS A MATTER OF FACT that the opponent's character is "surviving much longer than they are SUPPOSED to."
The mind wobbles
It is something that comes with experience and skill. Michael Jordan can tell walking into a random gym how good certain people are by just watching them warm up.
Perhaps you’ll attain it someday.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
I did. It starts off making no sense, that they are upset that "players of severely inferior skill level to survive MUCH longer then they are supposed to". I read that as I got killed in PvP.
Considering the uptime of Major Vitality from either weapon is a whopping 3 seconds it seems a little crazy to be complaining about. For a player to keep that buff up full time they would essentiality be limited to using only two skills between refreshing it.
So it does not make sense at all.4 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you don't agree with the OP, that's totally fair, but if you can't deal with balance discussions anymore, maybe you should just opt out of them. They aren't going away. They will always be part of an actively developed MMO.
Players here also have to stop blaming each other for changes they don't like. There is one party solely responsible for all changes in ESO: ZOS. If something you enjoy was changed in a negative way, don't blame PVP players or the individuals that suggested it, blame the party that made the decision.Edited by zyk on November 14, 2019 7:23AM1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?
Yes, I did, and you clearly didn’t read it. I already addressed your counter-argument before you even made it. You look like a fool.
Healers use BRP resto in vSS because healing has taken nothing but nerfs since the trial released. You can’t just state the opposite of facts to make your argument sound valid.
Healing Ward: Super Buffed
Springs: Buffed (in use for cages)
Radiant Regeneration: Super Buffed
Orb was nerfed, but with the buffs to the other three it is absolutely not needed.
I have healed vSS HM. It is ridiculously easy now. If using Brose Resto, with a spring down before they head in, you can heal them out in one vine after using healing ward. You can easily complete it without Brose resto, which is exactly what I stated in the OP.
Your belief that you need Brose resto for vSS resembles what is likely a build issue. I suggest looking up a prominent good healer on YouTube, such as @stileanima or Heals the Feels so you may better adjust your build to healing cages.
Need is a strong word, that I don’t believe I said. And I heal about as often as you PVE
, but I do prefer living through that mechanic. Have you considered the possibility that Major Vitality is the intended counter to the 90% healing reduction?
I can’t speak for Stiles, but my friend Icky happens to be the one that heals her out of the Ice Cages, using a BRP resto. I’m really glad the PVP community is able to help out MC with these pro suggestions though
Really it’s not about the world’s top group anyway, I know plenty of healers who struggle with Lokke HM even with the BRP Resto. You’re suggesting making their game experience less enjoyable, just so you can lose less often to “severely inferior” players in PVP. Not a worthwhile trade IMO.6 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?
Yes, I did, and you clearly didn’t read it. I already addressed your counter-argument before you even made it. You look like a fool.
Healers use BRP resto in vSS because healing has taken nothing but nerfs since the trial released. You can’t just state the opposite of facts to make your argument sound valid.
Healing Ward: Super Buffed
Springs: Buffed (in use for cages)
Radiant Regeneration: Super Buffed
Orb was nerfed, but with the buffs to the other three it is absolutely not needed.
I have healed vSS HM. It is ridiculously easy now. If using Brose Resto, with a spring down before they head in, you can heal them out in one vine after using healing ward. You can easily complete it without Brose resto, which is exactly what I stated in the OP.
Your belief that you need Brose resto for vSS resembles what is likely a build issue. I suggest looking up a prominent good healer on YouTube, such as @stileanima or Heals the Feels so you may better adjust your build to healing cages.
Need is a strong word, that I don’t believe I said. And I heal about as often as you PVE, but I do prefer living through that mechanic. Have you considered the possibility that Major Vitality is the intended counter to the 90% healing reduction?
I can’t speak for Stiles, but my friend Icky happens to be the one that heals her out of the Ice Cages, using a BRP resto. I’m really glad the PVP community is able to help out MC with these pro suggestions though
Really it’s not about the world’s top group anyway, I know plenty of healers who struggle with Lokke HM even with the BRP Resto. You’re suggesting making their game experience less enjoyable, just so you can lose less often to “severely inferior” players in PVP. Not a worthwhile trade IMO.
Those healers can get good then? Like I said, it’s hilariously easy this patch. I’m a PvP player who’s never healed any trial other then vSS HM and I’ve done it for Christ’s sake.
https://youtu.be/WK_8A-91HxA Literally, like my 5th time healing ever. Character was still an imperial because I hadn’t even race changed him yet. If a PvP player can do it I’m sure people who actually main PvE can figure it out. The same way they learned to heal without the carry set that was Earthgore.
And for the last time. The reason these need nerfs is because they allow people to survive much longer then they should based off of their skill level. Your attempts at making it look like “I’m salty because I lost” is a blatant Strawman that avoids the topic of reasoning completely. Losing would imply the garbage players who take longer to kill actually stood a chance killing me, which they don’t, much like most everyone commenting on this post anti-nerf. They’re simply nuisances when I am 1v4 and they pop out a BRP weapon and force the fight to be more drawn out.
I suggest, not only to yourself, but to everyone who wishes to be involved in more engaging conversation rather then banter, to read up on yourlogicalfallacyis.com ~ committing these only promotes unstructured debate and inhibits any form of intellectual discussion at all. We should all strive to be as well informed and converse as intellectually as possible, we are not primates.Edited by SenpaiNFT on November 14, 2019 6:39AM1 -
Witar✭✭✭✭✭Duals are definitly in need of adjustementIt cannot be seen, cannot be felt,
Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt,
It lies behind stars and under hills,
And empty holes it fills,
It comes first and follows after,
Ends life, kills laughter.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
Oh is there a Lokkestiiz HM in PVP now too? Because a trial boss was mentioned specifically, and it’s the one place where every good PVE healer uses the item. I also failed to notice any mention of the requested nerf being limited to PVP, it sounded more like a “I can’t kill someone in PVP, so change the game and screw PVE” request.
Did you even read the OP?
Did you even write the OP?
Yes, I did, and you clearly didn’t read it. I already addressed your counter-argument before you even made it. You look like a fool.
Healers use BRP resto in vSS because healing has taken nothing but nerfs since the trial released. You can’t just state the opposite of facts to make your argument sound valid.
Healing Ward: Super Buffed
Springs: Buffed (in use for cages)
Radiant Regeneration: Super Buffed
Orb was nerfed, but with the buffs to the other three it is absolutely not needed.
I have healed vSS HM. It is ridiculously easy now. If using Brose Resto, with a spring down before they head in, you can heal them out in one vine after using healing ward. You can easily complete it without Brose resto, which is exactly what I stated in the OP.
Your belief that you need Brose resto for vSS resembles what is likely a build issue. I suggest looking up a prominent good healer on YouTube, such as @stileanima or Heals the Feels so you may better adjust your build to healing cages.
Need is a strong word, that I don’t believe I said. And I heal about as often as you PVE, but I do prefer living through that mechanic. Have you considered the possibility that Major Vitality is the intended counter to the 90% healing reduction?
I can’t speak for Stiles, but my friend Icky happens to be the one that heals her out of the Ice Cages, using a BRP resto. I’m really glad the PVP community is able to help out MC with these pro suggestions though
Really it’s not about the world’s top group anyway, I know plenty of healers who struggle with Lokke HM even with the BRP Resto. You’re suggesting making their game experience less enjoyable, just so you can lose less often to “severely inferior” players in PVP. Not a worthwhile trade IMO.
Those healers can get good then? Like I said, it’s hilariously easy this patch. I’m a PvP player who’s never healed any trial other then vSS HM and I’ve done it for Christ’s sake.https://youtu.be/WK_8A-91HxA Literally, like my 5th time healing ever. Character was still an imperial because I hadn’t even race changed him yet. If a PvP player can do it I’m sure people who actually main PvE can figure it out. The same way they learned to heal without the carry set that was Earthgore.
And for the last time. The reason these need nerfs is because they allow people to survive much longer then they should based off of their skill level. Your attempts at making it look like “I’m salty because I lost” is a blatant Strawman that avoids the topic of reasoning completely. Losing would imply the garbage players who take longer to kill actually stood a chance killing me, which they don’t, much like most everyone commenting on this post anti-nerf. They’re simply nuisances when I am 1v4 and they pop out a BRP weapon and force the fight to be more drawn out.
I suggest, not only to yourself, but to everyone who wishes to be involved in more engaging conversation rather then banter, to read up on yourlogicalfallacyis.com ~ committing these only promotes unstructured debate and inhibits any form of intellectual discussion at all. We should all strive to be as well informed and converse as intellectually as possible, we are not primates.
Oh wow, I didn’t realize you were a 1vXer. You definitely deserve to win with those skills. I take it all back, and maybe could I possibly get an autograph?
Seriously, how can you make statements like
and then expect anyone to believe you're coming from a place of logic and not salt. Anyway, I'm bored of this thread, I think my points have been made.Losing would imply the garbage players who take longer to kill actually stood a chance killing me, which they don’tEdited by WrathOfInnos on November 14, 2019 7:10AM5 -
frozzzen101✭✭✭✭Dude, do you even hear yourself? It is nuisance to my playstyle therefore nerf. It's not even "I can't kill people using X" or "I die to people using Y" but bar has been set to "it is nuisance"? Are you for real? QUICK, CALL THE PRESS, THOSE PEOPLE ARE NUISANCE ! NEEEERF THEM !!!111
For the most part, discontent here isn't about BRP DW and resto at all, it's about mindset of this whining, entitled, demanding attitude that this small subsection of pvpers have. It's nuisance therefore nerf. it is detrimental to my playstyle that is 0.001% of population, therefore nerf. At this point, people don't really care about validity of your claims as this mindset has ruined stuff both for PvE and PvP one time too many. You are boy who cried wolf too many times and now nobody likes you anymore. Nobody cares if your claim has any truth to it because of stuff that got ruined thanks to people like you with same attitude.8 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People are always around to defend these two things, and ZOS apparently wants to balance the game around them instead of simply nerfing or putting a CD on the effect of the skills. That's why I consider PvP to be a joke this patch.
Wait until you fight the hybrids using both of them. You'll have lots and lots of fun...0