ZOS behaves like a spoiled and offended child when faced with criticism and opts for censorship

daedalusAI

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

We have closed this thread as the discussion here has not been productive. Instead, this thread has been used to bash the developers and moderators. We can understand you want to share your feedback on the game but we ask that you do so in a constructive manner. When submitting feedback, consider whether or not what you’re posting will be something the Dev Team can use to turn into real change.

Context: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498626/does-zos-even-care/p2
The thread is in essence about e.g. PTS 23 in which ZOS ignored every feedback regarding the over-the-top scaling of DoTs and went live with it anyway, with the reversal happening 1 major patch later, or the almost complete absence of any communication except their cleaner service of employees which will purge the forums of any critical post/thread and will shut down everything they deem unacceptable for whatever reason.

Read the thread, then read the official explanation as to why the thread was locked:

• The first reason is a "has not been productive". Read that again and let it sink it: having players talk about the shortcomings/doings/failures of ZOS is not "productive" according to ZOS
• Next is the censorship all-cure reason of "bashing". A ZOS employee on the forums, who's main objective is to remove threads/posts and post copy&paste answers while never engaging in actual conversation is now deeming the act of pointing out said factual behavior "bashing". The same applies to the dev: they get handed free feedback during PTS cycles on a silver platter and yet they couldn't care less about it, and if you're lucky they maybe fix things which occurred during the previous PTS with the next major version, letting customers play on an unfixed version
• Next is the clear lie of "post constructive feedback dev can use for a real change". Just read the threads for U23 and U24 PTS like the over-the-top DoT scaling or resource increase etc.and tell me that wasn't "constructive feedback"(how I despise the word constructive in regards to opinions, as its only use is to have an excuse to exclude things you don't like/want to hear)

Even the a casual forum user should notice the climate on this forum: constant censorship using bogus reasons, 0 communication with copy&paste templates almost being the only avenue of conversation, almost all PTS feedback landing in the trash bin next to a ZOS desk etc.

Are you sure you want to pay for a game run by such a company?

TelvanniWizard

Agree with op, but there is nothing to be done

darthgummibear_ESO

"We don't like getting called out by the people who are the reason we exist for not doing a good enough job"

Harrdarrzarr

His remark "post constructive feedback dev can use for a real change" was obviously placed regarding the "does zos even care" forum thread? It has nothing to do with any previous thread.

What is the result that you have in mind when creating this thread, or what result would the person have had in mind when creating the "does ZOS even care post" thread?

Bitching about something for the sake of bitching is not constructive.

Yuffie91

Sort of goes against freedom of speech imo

UrbanMonk

ZOS be like..

Siohwenoeht

Some of the criticism was written by spoiled children. There are bad things with the patch, but we're talking about a game here, and the thread you mentioned devolved into an attack on the devs based on what they do in their spare time.

Guess what? Their job is to create what you play in YOUR spare time, why should what they do in theirs matter to anyone?

Spoiled indeed.

Edit: *** autocorrect needs to learn proper grammar.

mocap

idunno... 80% threads in general discussion are criticism. Don't see them closed.

Siohwenoeht

Yuffie91 wrote: »

Sort of goes against freedom of speech imo

There is no guarantee of free speech on a privately owned forum, website, business etc.

The 1st amendment only guarantees that the government will not infringe on your freedom of speech.

Marigold1

Well, it is sad if you create a thread about a problem which is censored.

„We have closed this thread as the discussion here has not been productive. Instead, this thread has been used to bash the developers and moderators. We can understand you want to share your feedback on the game but we ask that you do so in a constructive manner. When submitting feedback, consider whether or not what you’re posting will be something the Dev Team can use to turn into real change.“

If I am not mistaken, I have wrote nothing wrong or offending, yet they chose to lock the topic with just a template response. As they have directive to suppress any feedback which they don’t like…
If they don’t like what the players are sending to them, perhaps it is time to be more open and honest with their customers… after all we are the one giving them money for their living.

BomblePants

There are things I don’t like about the patch either.... but to say we are the reason their jobs exist is incorrect.... they are employed by a company.... not us.... And to personalise criticism is not constructive it is an attack. Petulant pouting and demands are not constructive....

Siohwenoeht

Marigold1 wrote: »

Well, it is sad if you create a thread about a problem which is censored.


If I am not mistaken, I have wrote nothing wrong or offending, yet they chose to lock the topic with just a template response. As they have directive to suppress any feedback which they don’t like…
If they don’t like what the players are sending to them, perhaps it is time to be more open and honest with their customers… after all we are the one giving them money for their living.

You may not have, but some troll or keyboard warrior with a bone to pick did it for you. Also, the only directive of the moderators is to eliminate bad posts and derailed threads. They follow the forum rules and expect is to as well. They leave plenty of critical threads open, if they remain civil.

Zacuel

Let's do something crazy that will get their attention.

Everybody stop playing eso! I mean literally everyone! That'll teach them!

Oh wait nevermind... I need my tickets!

Marigold1

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Marigold1 wrote: »

Well, it is sad if you create a thread about a problem which is censored.


If I am not mistaken, I have wrote nothing wrong or offending, yet they chose to lock the topic with just a template response. As they have directive to suppress any feedback which they don’t like…
If they don’t like what the players are sending to them, perhaps it is time to be more open and honest with their customers… after all we are the one giving them money for their living.

You may not have, but some troll or keyboard warrior with a bone to pick did it for you. Also, the only directive of the moderators is to eliminate bad posts and derailed threads. They follow the forum rules and expect is to as well. They leave plenty of critical threads open, if they remain civil.

true

Araneae6537

mocap wrote: »

idunno... 80% threads in general discussion are criticism. Don't see them closed.

Very true. There is a HUGE difference between saying that you don’t like something (and hopefully why) and insulting those who created it. That thread was just ranting (much like OP’s post) and should have been closed. DoTs were in fact adjusted in response to PTS feedback. I’m not saying all that’s been done is perfect and I’m sure there would not be a consensus on what that is.

Lest anyone accuse me of being a “white knight” or “fan boi” or some garbage, note that I have made plenty of critical posts myself, but I do try to see perspectives other than my own and make my feedback, both positive and negative, constructive.

daedalusAI

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Some of the criticism was written by spoiled children. There are bad things with the patch, but we're talking about a game here, and the thread you mentioned devolved into an attack on the devs based on what they do in their spare time.

Guess what? They're job is to create what you play in YOUR spare time, why should what they do in theirs matter to anyone?

Spoiled indeed.

An opinion is an "attack"? How does that work.

ErinM31 wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

idunno... 80% threads in general discussion are criticism. Don't see them closed.

Very true. There is a HUGE difference between saying that you don’t like something (and hopefully why) and insulting those who created it. That thread was just ranting (much like OP’s post) and should have been closed. DoTs were in fact adjusted in response to PTS feedback. I’m not saying all that’s been done is perfect and I’m sure there would not be a consensus on what that is.

Lest anyone accuse me of being a “white knight” or “fan boi” or some garbage, note that I have made plenty of critical posts myself, but I do try to see perspectives other than my own and make my feedback, both positive and negative, constructive.

Point me towards the "rant" part and how said "rant" was objectively false - or is that your attempt at a strawman?

DoTs were indeed adjusted - 3 months after the PTS with U24, and not anywhere during U23.

"Thinks he tries to see other perspectives while calling mine a "rant" in his 2nd sentence".
Good one.

daedalusAI

BomblePants wrote: »

There are things I don’t like about the patch either.... but to say we are the reason their jobs exist is incorrect.... they are employed by a company.... not us.... And to personalise criticism is not constructive it is an attack. Petulant pouting and demands are not constructive....

And how does the company make money: do they have a gold hen in the corner?

Factual recounting how the mods behave on this forum and what the devs change/don't change in-game is now "personalized criticism"?

Did you even read the thread I linked, or are you just "petulant pouting" by using a broad stroke?

Siohwenoeht

daedalusAI wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Some of the criticism was written by spoiled children. There are bad things with the patch, but we're talking about a game here, and the thread you mentioned devolved into an attack on the devs based on what they do in their spare time.

Guess what? They're job is to create what you play in YOUR spare time, why should what they do in theirs matter to anyone?

Spoiled indeed.

An opinion is an "attack"? How does that work?

I haven't gone back to the thread in question but I'm sure the comment I'm referring to was removed completely. It was not the OP, but a comment down the line that brought the thread to being closed.

Dusk_Coven

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

When submitting feedback, consider whether or not what you’re posting will be something the Dev Team can use to turn into real change.

Since most of the forum posts are nothing useful, mostly with no reasoning or data backing them up, and probably in actuality a selfish "do this because I will secretly benefit" post, ZOS is being kind and professional by not saying anything at all in response.

In fact I was considering putting forward a suggestion to make a subforum on PTS where all the useless posts are automatically moved to. The ones that say "do this" / "do that" / "you are stupid" but provide no reasonable reasons, no repeatable test cases, no verifiable data whatsoever -- i.e., nothing actionable by the dev team.
Example: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496171/please-nerf-snipe-cloak-bosmer-and-khajiit
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498131/ultra-wide-screen-should-be-banned

daedalusAI

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

When submitting feedback, consider whether or not what you’re posting will be something the Dev Team can use to turn into real change.

Since most of the forum posts are nothing useful, mostly with no reasoning or data backing them up, and probably in actuality a selfish "do this because I will secretly benefit" post, ZOS is being kind and professional by not saying anything at all in response.

In fact I was considering putting forward a suggestion to make a subforum on PTS where all the useless posts are automatically moved to. The ones that say "do this" / "do that" / "you are stupid" but provide no reasonable reasons, no repeatable test cases, no verifiable data whatsoever -- i.e., nothing actionable by the dev team.
Example: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496171/please-nerf-snipe-cloak-bosmer-and-khajiit
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498131/ultra-wide-screen-should-be-banned

Low-hanging fruit: the fact that U23 PTS DoT scaling feedback was ignored and only implemented with U24 proves that ZOS doesn't care for reasoning or data.

With data e.g. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496782/5-2-3-5-2-4-liquid-lightning-is-still-underperforming-also-5-2-5#latest and not a peep from ZOS.

Btw: using cherry-picking to prove your point shows how utterly weak is really is.

Dusk_Coven

daedalusAI wrote: »

Btw: using cherry-picking to prove your point shows how utterly weak is really is.

I was gonna say the same about your link! LOL
I just picked out the funny ones.
And they didn't censor that thread you linked, did they?

Araneae6537

daedalusAI wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Some of the criticism was written by spoiled children. There are bad things with the patch, but we're talking about a game here, and the thread you mentioned devolved into an attack on the devs based on what they do in their spare time.

Guess what? They're job is to create what you play in YOUR spare time, why should what they do in theirs matter to anyone?

Spoiled indeed.

An opinion is an "attack"? How does that work.

ErinM31 wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

idunno... 80% threads in general discussion are criticism. Don't see them closed.

Very true. There is a HUGE difference between saying that you don’t like something (and hopefully why) and insulting those who created it. That thread was just ranting (much like OP’s post) and should have been closed. DoTs were in fact adjusted in response to PTS feedback. I’m not saying all that’s been done is perfect and I’m sure there would not be a consensus on what that is.

Lest anyone accuse me of being a “white knight” or “fan boi” or some garbage, note that I have made plenty of critical posts myself, but I do try to see perspectives other than my own and make my feedback, both positive and negative, constructive.

Point me towards the "rant" part and how said "rant" was objectively false - or is that your attempt at a strawman?

DoTs were indeed adjusted - 3 months after the PTS with U24, and not anywhere during U23.

"Thinks he tries to see other perspectives while calling mine a "rant" in his 2nd sentence".
Good one.

Where is your post a rant? The very title, for starters.

I’m not sure how the exact time the adjustment to DoTs was made is at all relevant? 🤔 My point there was simply that ZOS does respond to feedback, even if not in the way that people might wish. But my main point was the manner in which feedback is given.

I try to see people’s points on what they’re unhappy about, as well as ZOS’s point of view, to the degree one might reasonably conjecture. I don’t have much sympathy for people making overblown accusations though and I usually try not to waste my time responding. Ah well.

But sure, straw man, whatever makes you happy.

gepe87

Manu players have feedback in a constructive way and what happen? Nothing.

FierceSam

Dude,

Feedback and opinions of players are important, but they’re not everything. It’s utterly ridiculous to think that ZOS make decisions or react entirely on the basis of the feedback from a self-appointed group of players, or that they react with the speed that you imagine. And it’s utterly ridiculous to get angry about it. Just because your whims aren’t immediately catered for doesn’t mean they weren’t heard, considered and an alternative was deemed better.

In terms of threads being closed, this is ZOS’s forum. They have set the rules and they implement them. There really isn’t a lot of space for threads that are ranty, angry or even ‘unconstructive’. That still leaves an enormous gaping space for considered comments and discussion.

If you or I don’t like a particular part of the game, it’s fine for us to criticise it and ask for it to be amended, but we should be able to do it in a civil manner. Otherwise we’re not doing commenting right.

jircris11

Yuffie91 wrote: »

Sort of goes against freedom of speech imo

Freedom of speech does not apply to online forums or games. I had a big run around long ago with a team about that one when I worked with ncsoft.

rpa

Well, ZoS was going to improve communication. Unpinned theread about it is somewhere there sinking. I guess we get that after combat has been balanced and performance problems eliminated.

GhostofDatthaw

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Yuffie91 wrote: »

Sort of goes against freedom of speech imo

There is no guarantee of free speech on a privately owned forum, website, business etc.

The 1st amendment only guarantees that the government will not infringe on your freedom of speech.

Not quite true, but we signed tos

Huyen

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Yuffie91 wrote: »

Sort of goes against freedom of speech imo

There is no guarantee of free speech on a privately owned forum, website, business etc.

The 1st amendment only guarantees that the government will not infringe on your freedom of speech.

Here in europe we dont got a 1st amendment, but freedom of speech and expression is firmly anchored in our laws.

In this case ZoS being the one that shuts down threads because they think its non-constructive, is against said laws. However, they arent based in the EU, but in the US so one can debate if the EU laws should apply to them.

That being said, shutting down a forum, because people tell you stuff you dont want to hear is a sure way to go bankrupt within a short time.

russelmmendoza

Their forum, their game.

Accept it, move on.

Que sera sera.

FierceSam

Huyen wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Yuffie91 wrote: »

Sort of goes against freedom of speech imo

There is no guarantee of free speech on a privately owned forum, website, business etc.

The 1st amendment only guarantees that the government will not infringe on your freedom of speech.

Here in europe we dont got a 1st amendment, but freedom of speech and expression is firmly anchored in our laws.

In this case ZoS being the one that shuts down threads because they think its non-constructive, is against said laws. However, they arent based in the EU, but in the US so one can debate if the EU laws should apply to them.

That being said, shutting down a forum, because people tell you stuff you dont want to hear is a sure way to go bankrupt within a short time.

Freedom of speech doesn’t give you carte blanche to be rude, uncivil or ‘unconstructive’. Each of us still ought to think before speaking or think twice before posting.

My experience is that I can be exceptionally critical of ZOS and their performance. I haven’t been banned and my threads are still up and running.

I don’t see them shutting down a forum and I don’t see any evidence that they don’t listen. Although given the amount of criticism they’ve had over the performance of the EU server and the lack of any noticeable improvements to it, I’m not convinced about their ability to act either.

Me telling and ZOS listening still doesn’t always mean they’ll do what I suggest. But if I suggest it in a calm, practical and coherent manner, my threads aren’t going to be censored in any way.

Luckylancer

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Their forum, their game.

Accept it, move on.

Que sera sera.

Or do what I do. Dont pay a coin, not to dlcs expansions or eso+. Pay when they fix their product. I want minimal lag and maximal balancing(one class can be stronger but should not be OP as magplar right now).
Look at Fengrush. He pays to get lagged to death, he pays for his favorite play style decimated and he pays to get rekt by premates in BGs.