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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
5.2.3 & 5.2.4 Liquid Lightning is Still Underperforming (also 5.2.5)
WrathOfInnos
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I've been doing some early testing to see how the changes in 5.2.3 have worked out. Lightning Splash and its morphs were buffed by 20% today, so that was one skill I wanted to observe. After doing a few parses, I can see that it is still underperforming, and is not worth slotting on a Sorcerer DPS build. This is quite disappointing, since I believe the intent is to preserve class-defining skills, especially those that visually demonstrate the elemental power of each class. I understand that AoE's are intended to be similar in damage to single target DoTs, with a moderately higher cost, but this is not the case currently with Liquid Lightning.
Here is an example of a typical DPS breakdown using various Sorcerer skills on cooldown (not a fully optimized build but useful for skill comparisons):
To break this down, one thing I want to point out is the number of ticks of Liquid Lightning. It has a duration of 14s, just like Scalding Rune and Blockade, but unlike these other 2 skills it does not have a final tick when the duration ends. This means that one cast of Liquid Lightning ticks 14 times, vs the 15 on Blockade. Looking more at the differences between Blockade and Liquid (generic vs class DoT), we can see that Liquid does not tick quite as high as Blockade (even though I had more crits on Liquid on average). The tooltip on Liquid appears to be slightly higher, but it does not benefit from Engulfing Flames or the Burning bonus, so it ends up weaker both in number of ticks and tick strength. Liquid also covers a much smaller area (4m radius circle vs 18x12m rectangle). Both cost 3910 Magicka after cost reductions from Light Armor and Breton passives, which in my opinion is too high. This cost makes a 10s rotation around Unstable Wall and Lightning Flood unsustainable, forcing players into using the longer-duration morphs.
The only argument for Liquid Lightning is that it provides a synergy to a group member, however I believe this is far less impactful than it used to be. For one thing, previous meta Sorc builds were able to provide a Conduit synergy every 6-8s, which had a noticeable effect on Alkosh and Lokkestiiz uptimes, but with the new duration this is halved to one synergy every 14s, barely enough for one group member to use on cooldown.
The other easy comparison here is Scalding Rune vs Liquid Lightning. These are 2 small AoE DoT's that can be cast at range. On my current build, Scalding costs 2203 Magicka vs the 3910 on Liquid Lightning. Similar to Blockade, the fire damage on Scalding is a superior damage type because it benefits from Engulfing Flames. As you can see in the parse above, Scalding did more DPS than Liquid (both were cast the same number of times, every 14 seconds). Scalding does have the disadvantage of an arming time, and has a slightly smaller radius (3m vs 4m), but it also gives Empower every time it is cast which is even more DPS that is shown as Light Attack damage and not obvious in the parse above. If given a choice between the 2 (which is legitimately the case when looking at the constrained bar space on a Sorc build with pets), I would choose Scalding Rune over Liquid Lightning every time. This is a problem IMO.
Mystic Orb is also worth mentioning as a comparison, as it is doing 40% more damage than Liquid Lightning, with double the radius, and also provides a synergy that can be used by everyone (not single use like Conduit). Now this one is not a straightforward as the previous comparisons, because Mystic Orb must be cast more often, it does not have a 14s duration. It has a cost of 2986, but it may be more meaningful to show Magicka drain of each skill to reflect the frequency of casting, in which case Orb consumed more Magicka and more GCD's than other skills.
(Edit: Note that the first casts of Liquid and Scalding were technically before combat started, both actually had 19 casts just like Blockade. This means that Liquid had an actual drain of 254 mag/s and Scalding had 141 Mag/s. This further demonstrates that even with the long-duration morph, Liquid consumed a high % of the magicka used while dealing a low % of the total damage)
Now I want to be clear, that I'm not writing this to call for a Blockade, Mystic Orb, or Scalding Rune nerf. All of those skills are barely worth slotting over just using spammables, and any reduction to their damage will result in dead skills (Blockade will probably always be used for enchant procs and Maelstrom effect, but Scalding and Orb could too easily return to their old useless forms). Liquid Lightning just needs a little more power so that it can stand out as an impactful class skill. I would say buff it to nearly the damage of 5.2.3 Winter's Revenge, but not exceeding (since Shock is a better damage type than Frost and WR does not provide a synergy). A slight increase to the radius would help as well, since 4m is a struggle even in AoE scenarios. And please reduce the cost (again a great move for Winter's Revenge in 5.2.3), or at a minimum make Flood a lower-cost morph to help sustain a 10s rotation for those that prefer managing shorter DoT times and want the increased AoE.
Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 21, 2019 5:19PM Here is an example of a typical DPS breakdown using various Sorcerer skills on cooldown (not a fully optimized build but useful for skill comparisons):
To break this down, one thing I want to point out is the number of ticks of Liquid Lightning. It has a duration of 14s, just like Scalding Rune and Blockade, but unlike these other 2 skills it does not have a final tick when the duration ends. This means that one cast of Liquid Lightning ticks 14 times, vs the 15 on Blockade. Looking more at the differences between Blockade and Liquid (generic vs class DoT), we can see that Liquid does not tick quite as high as Blockade (even though I had more crits on Liquid on average). The tooltip on Liquid appears to be slightly higher, but it does not benefit from Engulfing Flames or the Burning bonus, so it ends up weaker both in number of ticks and tick strength. Liquid also covers a much smaller area (4m radius circle vs 18x12m rectangle). Both cost 3910 Magicka after cost reductions from Light Armor and Breton passives, which in my opinion is too high. This cost makes a 10s rotation around Unstable Wall and Lightning Flood unsustainable, forcing players into using the longer-duration morphs.
The only argument for Liquid Lightning is that it provides a synergy to a group member, however I believe this is far less impactful than it used to be. For one thing, previous meta Sorc builds were able to provide a Conduit synergy every 6-8s, which had a noticeable effect on Alkosh and Lokkestiiz uptimes, but with the new duration this is halved to one synergy every 14s, barely enough for one group member to use on cooldown.
The other easy comparison here is Scalding Rune vs Liquid Lightning. These are 2 small AoE DoT's that can be cast at range. On my current build, Scalding costs 2203 Magicka vs the 3910 on Liquid Lightning. Similar to Blockade, the fire damage on Scalding is a superior damage type because it benefits from Engulfing Flames. As you can see in the parse above, Scalding did more DPS than Liquid (both were cast the same number of times, every 14 seconds). Scalding does have the disadvantage of an arming time, and has a slightly smaller radius (3m vs 4m), but it also gives Empower every time it is cast which is even more DPS that is shown as Light Attack damage and not obvious in the parse above. If given a choice between the 2 (which is legitimately the case when looking at the constrained bar space on a Sorc build with pets), I would choose Scalding Rune over Liquid Lightning every time. This is a problem IMO.
Mystic Orb is also worth mentioning as a comparison, as it is doing 40% more damage than Liquid Lightning, with double the radius, and also provides a synergy that can be used by everyone (not single use like Conduit). Now this one is not a straightforward as the previous comparisons, because Mystic Orb must be cast more often, it does not have a 14s duration. It has a cost of 2986, but it may be more meaningful to show Magicka drain of each skill to reflect the frequency of casting, in which case Orb consumed more Magicka and more GCD's than other skills.
(Edit: Note that the first casts of Liquid and Scalding were technically before combat started, both actually had 19 casts just like Blockade. This means that Liquid had an actual drain of 254 mag/s and Scalding had 141 Mag/s. This further demonstrates that even with the long-duration morph, Liquid consumed a high % of the magicka used while dealing a low % of the total damage)
Now I want to be clear, that I'm not writing this to call for a Blockade, Mystic Orb, or Scalding Rune nerf. All of those skills are barely worth slotting over just using spammables, and any reduction to their damage will result in dead skills (Blockade will probably always be used for enchant procs and Maelstrom effect, but Scalding and Orb could too easily return to their old useless forms). Liquid Lightning just needs a little more power so that it can stand out as an impactful class skill. I would say buff it to nearly the damage of 5.2.3 Winter's Revenge, but not exceeding (since Shock is a better damage type than Frost and WR does not provide a synergy). A slight increase to the radius would help as well, since 4m is a struggle even in AoE scenarios. And please reduce the cost (again a great move for Winter's Revenge in 5.2.3), or at a minimum make Flood a lower-cost morph to help sustain a 10s rotation for those that prefer managing shorter DoT times and want the increased AoE.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To demonstrate the availability of alternate skills, I simply replaced Liquid Lightning and Scalding Rune (the two lowest-performing skills) with double barred Volatile Familiar. This now required one cast every 10s (10% of GCD's) instead of 2 casts every 14s (14.3% of GCD's), dealt damage over a larger, mobile area, and allowed higher front bar uptime. Activating the pet is also cheaper than Liquid, costing only 2772 vs 3910 Magicka. The result was about 2k overall DPS increase, and here is the breakdown of skills:
The familiar did 3.1k + 4.5k = 7.6k which is greater than the 7.3k from combined Scalding Rune and Liquid Lightning previously. That combined with the other benefits mentioned above makes it difficult to justify giving a bar slot to Liquid Lightning (lower damage, harder sustain, and a more complicated rotation).Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 8, 2019 5:49AM17 -
bol✭✭✭There is no chance ever you will be able to sustain a rotation with 2 skills that cost 4900mag each. So when you have to decide which one to use, Elemental Wall wins hands down, no contest. Also liquid does lightning damage which is again makes it worse compared to Elemental Wall. And it's quite funny, how sorc has passive that boost lightning damage, but by using a lightning staff you're actually doing less damage then when using inferno. ZoS has their work cut out if we are ever to use more than 4 class skills on the mag sorc.3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)
I'd hope ZOS doesn't make synergy skills weaker because a teammate might activate them.6 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)
I'd hope ZOS doesn't make synergy skills weaker because a teammate might activate them.
You hope ZoS isnt considering synergy as part of their budget value? I have no doubt they do to point I would believe if the whole synergy damage portion was just automatic on cast the ability would be just marginally worse (in total damage) than with having it on synergy0 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭Well argued OP...
With the intention of improving class identity, there is no reason such a signature skill in liquid lightning should be sidelined and out matched by blockade, scalding rune, and orbs (non class abilities).
Buff it!8 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
5 mil damage from light attacks (25% of total), good god that looks boring as hell ...
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »
5 mil damage from light attacks (25% of total), good god that looks boring as hell ...
That % is likely going to increase as I refine the build. For the purpose of fair comparisons when testing the updated DoTs, I was running equal CP’s in Master at Arms and Thaumaturge (56 each for 20%).
It’s now clear that most DoTs (Entropy, Soul Trap, Flame Reach, Liquid Lightning, and Scalding Rune) are still not worth running in 5.2.3 so I will be removing a most (if not all) of the points from Thaumaturge. This means more will go into Staff Expert and Master at Arms, and Light Attacks will become a higher % of DPS.
I don’t really have a problem with Light Attacks doing good damage, they haven’t been buffed at all, it’s just an indicator of other skills being weaker now.Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 8, 2019 3:17PM6 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
5 mil damage from light attacks (25% of total), good god that looks boring as hell ...
That % is likely going to increase as I refine the build. For the purpose of fair comparisons when testing the updated DoTs, I was running equal CP’s in Master at Arms and Thaumaturge (56 each for 20%).
It’s now clear that most DoTs (Entropy, Soul Trap, Flame Reach, Liquid Lightning, and Scalding Rune) are still not worth running in 5.2.3 so I will be removing a most (if not all) of the points from Thaumaturge. This means more will go into Staff Expert and Master at Arms, and Light Attacks will become a higher % of DPS.
Oh, joy. /s
I don't know. Left clicks doing so dramatically much more damage than the skills in between them (which are more specific to the classes I'm playing than the weapon(s) I use is/are) really doesn't lend itself to any sort of power fantasy I might have. To me, it feels less and less like I'm supplementing my ability damage with light attacks, and more and more like the opposite, like my class skills are doing backup to LClick LClick LClick LClick. LCli-
(Sorry. Out of resources. Gotta heavy attack.)
Ick.10 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BrightOblivion wrote: »To me, it feels less and less like I'm supplementing my ability damage with light attacks, and more and more like the opposite, like my class skills are doing backup to LClick LClick LClick LClick. LCli-
(Sorry. Out of resources. Gotta heavy attack.)
Exactly ...
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path
That is true, Twisting Path has been in a pretty bad place the last couple patches. I have not made a Nightblade template on 5.2.3 so I don’t feel qualified to discuss it, but you should repeat my Liquid Lightning testing with Path and see if it’s better or worse.0 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path
That is true, Twisting Path has been in a pretty bad place the last couple patches. I have not made a Nightblade template on 5.2.3 so I don’t feel qualified to discuss it, but you should repeat my Liquid Lightning testing with Path and see if it’s better or worse.
Besides checking if twisting suffers from the same problem of missing a tick of damage, there really isn't a need. Iirc it has a similar tool tip as LL but deals magic damage which has the disadvantage of not having a debuff in addition to not being buffed by engulfing. The only thing twisting has over LL, besides the laughable utility of major expedition, is a larger area of effect which, imo, is offset by the ability for LL to be placed at range.0 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path
Yeah the exact same argument can be made for other classes and their class specific DoTs....
A great comparison for someone would be to compare LL to boneyard (which also grants a synergy and secondary effects)0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path
Yeah the exact same argument can be made for other classes and their class specific DoTs....
A great comparison for someone would be to compare LL to boneyard (which also grants a synergy and secondary effects)
True. I think Boneyard has a little more utility from the AoE Major Fracture and Breach as well as the synergy, so it should have slightly lower damage than Liquid/Flood. Blazing Spear loses a lot of utility from sharing the same synergy as Orbs, so it should have higher damage than Lightning or Boneyard (taking average procs of Burning Light into consideration). Winter’s Revenge offers very little utility, just a higher chance of Chill for AoE Minor Maim, and therefore should have higher damage than Blazing. Eruption has pretty limited utility as well, with its 70% snare. It is a better damage type since Flame damage gets buffed by Engulfing Flames, and I’d say it should slightly outperform the damage of Winter’s Revenge after adding the 10% from Engulfing. Twisting Path offers no real utility (the Major Expedition is a joke, and annoys allies more than helping them), and is the weakest damage type, Magic. Path should have higher damage than all of the skills listed previously.
There are of course other factors that affect the balance of these skills as well, AoE size and shape, Magicka cost, etc.Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 8, 2019 4:30PM3 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭You forgot ritual which has a huge area, heals, and a purge synergy.WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path
Yeah the exact same argument can be made for other classes and their class specific DoTs....
A great comparison for someone would be to compare LL to boneyard (which also grants a synergy and secondary effects)
True. I think Boneyard has a little more utility from the AoE Major Fracture and Breach as well as the synergy, so it should have slightly lower damage than Liquid/Flood. Blazing Spear loses a lot of utility from sharing the same synergy as Orbs, so it should have higher damage than Lightning or Boneyard (taking average procs of Burning Light into consideration). Winter’s Revenge offers very little utility, just a higher chance of Chill for AoE Minor Maim, and therefore should have higher damage than Blazing. Eruption has pretty limited utility as well, with its 70% snare. It is a better damage type since Flame damage gets buffed by Engulfing Flames, and I’d say it should slightly outperform the damage of Winter’s Revenge after adding the 10% from Engulfing. Twisting Path offers no real utility (the Major Expedition is a joke, and annoys allies more than helping them), and is the weakest damage type, Magic. Path should have higher damage than all of the skills listed previously.
There are of course other factors that affect the balance of these skills as well, AoE size and shape, Magicka cost, etc.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »You forgot ritual which has a huge area, heals, and a purge synergy.WrathOfInnos wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »At least liquid lightning has the synergy, it's still going see more use than twisting path
Yeah the exact same argument can be made for other classes and their class specific DoTs....
A great comparison for someone would be to compare LL to boneyard (which also grants a synergy and secondary effects)
True. I think Boneyard has a little more utility from the AoE Major Fracture and Breach as well as the synergy, so it should have slightly lower damage than Liquid/Flood. Blazing Spear loses a lot of utility from sharing the same synergy as Orbs, so it should have higher damage than Lightning or Boneyard (taking average procs of Burning Light into consideration). Winter’s Revenge offers very little utility, just a higher chance of Chill for AoE Minor Maim, and therefore should have higher damage than Blazing. Eruption has pretty limited utility as well, with its 70% snare. It is a better damage type since Flame damage gets buffed by Engulfing Flames, and I’d say it should slightly outperform the damage of Winter’s Revenge after adding the 10% from Engulfing. Twisting Path offers no real utility (the Major Expedition is a joke, and annoys allies more than helping them), and is the weakest damage type, Magic. Path should have higher damage than all of the skills listed previously.
There are of course other factors that affect the balance of these skills as well, AoE size and shape, Magicka cost, etc.
True, I didn’t use Ritual of Retribution much in Scalebreaker due to its high cost. It might be similar to the others in Dragonhold though. The area is very large and heals are nice, but it can’t be cast at range.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Even better comparison to demonstrate how underperforming Lightning Splash is Lightning Flood vs Mystic Orb.
Mystic Orb is avilable to anyone, has significantly lower cost, same duration, higher damage and provides even more powerful synergy than Lightning flood. Give me on reason to slot class skill instead of generic skill. Even synergy for Alkosh isn't a valid argument because Combustion + Harvest is absolutely suficient to keep solid Alkosh uptime.
Edit: One thing to add. You won't see true difference on Target Iron Attronach because Mystic Orb will never hit him all 20 times. But it can and will hit big bosses like dragons in Sunspire or Saint Olms all 20 times.Edited by Olupajmibanan on October 8, 2019 5:24PM1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Even better comparison to demonstrate how underperforming Lightning Splash is Lightning Flood vs Mystic Orb.
Mystic Orb is avilable to anyone, has significantly lower cost, same duration, higher damage and provides even more powerful synergy than Lightning flood. Give me on reason to slot class skill instead of generic skill. Even synergy for Alkosh isn't a valid argument because Combustion + Harvest is absolutely suficient to keep solid Alkosh uptime.
Edit: One thing to add. You won't see true difference on Target Iron Attronach because Mystic Orb will never hit him all 20 times. But it can and will hit big bosses like dragons in Sunspire or Saint Olms all 20 times.
Yes, that is all true. However I wouldn’t say that Mystic Orb is overpowered at all. In an attempt to maximize Orb ticks, in the 2nd parse I linked above (post 2), I actually cast Mystic Orb every 7s because I was standing relatively close for Barbed Trap and Zaan and noticed that the last few seconds of Orb duration were not hitting the target. You can see that by casting ~40% more Orbs in the 2nd parse their DPS went from 5k to 6.8k. Even in this scenario, where Orbs consumed over 14% of my GCD’s and a large portion of my Magicka spent, they still only did 8.9% of my not very impressive overall DPS.
I also tried removing Orbs from my bars entirely and did a few parses. This proved to be around 1-2k DPS loss. This means that if Orbs received a damage nerf of 20-25% they would become a DPS loss just like so many other DoTs. So I want to be careful about staying this is not a “nerf orbs” thread, since they could so easily be made useless. Instead I’d like to see Liquid Lightning brought up to Orb DPS values and have a Magicka cost closer to that of Orbs.2 -
Davadin✭✭✭✭✭
✭BrightOblivion wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »
5 mil damage from light attacks (25% of total), good god that looks boring as hell ...
That % is likely going to increase as I refine the build. For the purpose of fair comparisons when testing the updated DoTs, I was running equal CP’s in Master at Arms and Thaumaturge (56 each for 20%).
It’s now clear that most DoTs (Entropy, Soul Trap, Flame Reach, Liquid Lightning, and Scalding Rune) are still not worth running in 5.2.3 so I will be removing a most (if not all) of the points from Thaumaturge. This means more will go into Staff Expert and Master at Arms, and Light Attacks will become a higher % of DPS.
Oh, joy. /s
I don't know. Left clicks doing so dramatically much more damage than the skills in between them (which are more specific to the classes I'm playing than the weapon(s) I use is/are) really doesn't lend itself to any sort of power fantasy I might have. To me, it feels less and less like I'm supplementing my ability damage with light attacks, and more and more like the opposite, like my class skills are doing backup to LClick LClick LClick LClick. LCli-
(Sorry. Out of resources. Gotta heavy attack.)
Ick.
you use stamina for light attacks?August Palatine Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Gray Host
Greymoor 6.0.7 PvP : Medium 2H/SnB The Destroyer
Dragonhold 5.2.11 PvE : Medium DW/2H The Blood Furnace
March 2021 (too lazy to add CP) PvP: Medium DW/Bow The Stabber0 -
GoodFella146✭✭✭✭✭If someone or something sits in that tiny little circle they should be getting torn up by this skill. Instead of getting rewarded for great placement of an ability, instead we're questioning whether or not to even use it. To me this is pretty sad. ZOS's answer is just to keep extending durations to get more damage which I don't think anyone is looking for.
When currently on live you can just throw an Entropy and forget about it to get more damage versus something harder to use is to me is really, really dumb. The fact it's an AOE shouldn't matter either because if you get multiple enemies to sit in your ability you should be getting rewarded. I don't really understand the reasonings of this current dev team.7 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No class ground target aoe is worth using.
It's unsustainable.
As far as I can see the only AOE skills worth using right now are unstable wall for backbar enchant procs as well as vMA buff to light attacks and soul splitting trap which has the same cost as the single target soul trap. I'm guessing this is an oversight which they will correct next week.
I completely agree with @WrathOfInnos analysis that lightning splash and all it's morphs are trash and should be taken off your bars.
I'll go further however and say that the pet active abilities are unsustainable without regen food. Right now pets are just dots we don't have to cast, which is making sorcs one of the strongest classes this patch.
this is the best parse I managed without regen food:
Breton, perf FG, sorrow, zaan, vampire, 1 regen glyph and absorb mag backbar enchant.
I only used the familiar ability during the last 25%, otherwise I need heavy attacks to sustain and the tormentor enrage has never been worth using.
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FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)
Remarkably elementary question from somebody who's been playing as long as I have:
Whose stats determine a synergy's damage -- the original caster's or the activator's? I ask because it seems that only a magicka melee teammate would have good stats for a Conduit synergy, if that's indeed whose stats prevail.0 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)
Remarkably elementary question from somebody who's been playing as long as I have:
Whose stats determine a synergy's damage -- the original caster's or the activator's? I ask because it seems that only a magicka melee teammate would have good stats for a Conduit synergy, if that's indeed whose stats prevail.
As far as I know, the damage is calculated from the activator. Synergy damage is calculated like ultimates, taking the top of either weapon damage/max stamina or spell damage/max magicka. A magicka teammate however should have the spell penetration and spell crit numbers to get the better damage out of it. Harmony jewelry can boost the effect significantly, though. I'm also not sure if theres a floor level of damage from someone with low stats.2 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Class AoE dots are in very bad spot. No reason to slot them unless they provide unique side effect. These are:
Volatile Familiar Explosion - this one is worth using, it's cost is moderate but the damage is great
Blazing Spear - thanks to Burning Light passive this is one of the most damaging abilities in your toolkit (provided you don't play Sweeps melee magplar
), it's worth despite the extreme cost
Solar Barrage - low damage, high cost but still, permanent Empower is too good to be passed, we all know what Light Attacks mean
Lightning Splash, Twisting Path are absolutely out of question. Even Eruption is highly questionable. Don't know about Warden and Necromancer but I feel Winter's Revenge and Boneyard won't be much different.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kringled_1 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)
Remarkably elementary question from somebody who's been playing as long as I have:
Whose stats determine a synergy's damage -- the original caster's or the activator's? I ask because it seems that only a magicka melee teammate would have good stats for a Conduit synergy, if that's indeed whose stats prevail.
As far as I know, the damage is calculated from the activator. Synergy damage is calculated like ultimates, taking the top of either weapon damage/max stamina or spell damage/max magicka. A magicka teammate however should have the spell penetration and spell crit numbers to get the better damage out of it. Harmony jewelry can boost the effect significantly, though. I'm also not sure if theres a floor level of damage from someone with low stats.
Oh. It can use the activator's best offensive stat. That's the third possibility I wasn't considering. Thanks!0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »kringled_1 wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Sorry to invade, but wouldnt you say you downplay the synergy a bit too much here? For example you compare the ability to winter's revenge and ask for similiar damage buff, but the advantage of synergy aside (procs of all the passives, alkosh, lokke etc...) the synergy also deals damage, one you obviously dont see on CMX as you cannot be the one using it, but one that is still part of ability. Both of these abilities actually reach similar total amount of damage (liquid more, but its also longer by 2s or so).
Just my observation, obviously liquid should tick 15 times not 14 times and well both Orbs and probably the pet are stronger than they should have been (if double barring and using one pet results in more damage than casting two abilities in the same time its probably more issue with the pet ^^)
Remarkably elementary question from somebody who's been playing as long as I have:
Whose stats determine a synergy's damage -- the original caster's or the activator's? I ask because it seems that only a magicka melee teammate would have good stats for a Conduit synergy, if that's indeed whose stats prevail.
As far as I know, the damage is calculated from the activator. Synergy damage is calculated like ultimates, taking the top of either weapon damage/max stamina or spell damage/max magicka. A magicka teammate however should have the spell penetration and spell crit numbers to get the better damage out of it. Harmony jewelry can boost the effect significantly, though. I'm also not sure if theres a floor level of damage from someone with low stats.
Oh. It can use the activator's best offensive stat. That's the third possibility I wasn't considering. Thanks!
Yes the base damage of conduit can scale off the activator’s Magicka and Spell Damage or Stamina and Weapon Damage using the following formula:
0.099961 Stat + 1.04942 Power
However it is Shock Damage so the % scaling beyond this is determined by CP’s in Elemental Expert, crit is determined by Spell Crit and Elfborn CP, and Penetration is from Spell Prn and Spell Erosion CP. Stamina characters will not get much damage out of it since they will not have Light Armor passives or the correct CP allocation for Shock damage.0 -
ku5h✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good job for doing ZoS job for them.
They probably would've never done it, but just maybe they read the summary of yours and do something about it.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've been doing a lot more testing, and have come to realize that I was mistaken about one thing. To get maximum DPS, neither Scalding Rune or Mystic Orb should be used. I was thinking that Orbs were the last good DoT, but as I continue testing it has become clear that they are a DPS loss as well. This truly is the patch of just spamming spammables (with Wall of course, for the Light Attack buff and enchant procs).
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