Ban mods and add-ons on computer to make better gameplay and fairness across the board!

peacenote

Jeremy wrote: »

This feeds into my argument: because maybe they would be quicker to fix basic QQL issues if it wasn't for addons in the first place.

I believe this argument is incorrect. Here is why:

ESO was released for the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One consoles in June 2015. It's... 2019? And still many basic QoL improvements have not been added to the game. Also, while old, this article from 2016 states that, at the time, PC players made up ~30% of the player base while console players made up ~60% of the player base. Which in turn means from a business perspective ZoS should have and maybe still should be prioritizing the needs of console players.

That split may not be true today, but I think this illustrates that not having add-ons on PC wouldn't increase the rate at which QoL improvements would be included in the game. We'd have gotten a lot of them in 2016/2017 if that were the case. Not to mention the fact that ~90% of the vocal community will object to an announced change and it will still move forward, so I don't think those extra 30% of players advocating slightly harder for specific functionality would sway the needle.

I have played MMOs with and without add-ons. I see both sides. After WoW I swore off games with add-ons for many years. Keeping them up to date and configured is another mini-game, like the inventory mini-game. Say you don't like the upkeep, or you dislike it that not everyone has 100% the same options while playing, which are both extremely valid points of view to have. However I do feel the "getting things fixed faster" argument is flawed.

Anyway, a few other counterpoints for other comments in this thread:

• Macros are not add-ons. Completely different and if you are upset about people using macros, don't vilify add-ons.
• Part of the reason that we might see higher scores on PC is because consoles have a cap on hardware specs; for PCs the only limitation is whatever is actually possible with hardware and what ESO as an application can leverage. Let's face it; gaming rigs are a thing. I believe I read that the reason for the cap on housing slots was because of the limitations on consoles, so it stands to reason that you're going to see performance gaps as well. More throughput, better graphics, and a snappier machine is going to give you a much better advantage than any add-on.
• As others have said, PC folks are not in direct competition with the other environments so... there is no unfair advantage.

Really the better question to be asking is if the devs and other folks at ZOS that play and test out the game play on console and/or use add-ons. Whether you think the dev team is fantastic or horrible or somewhere in between, imo the most important thing here is that all of the developers and testers are doing so in a vanilla environment. When they decide what to prioritize and what's a pain point based on their own experiences, in that case I think it would be extremely unfortunate if they made those decisions while using add-ons.

Frankly I think all of this recent attention and attacks on add-ons as an overall category is a red herring and diverting attention from other issues. Instead of assuming add-ons are the reason for something one doesn't like, it might be more productive to focus on the actual features that seem to be missing from base game or pain points.

I strongly sympathize with console players who lack features like Dressing Room and I certainly hope this type of functionality can make its way to other platforms, one way or another. However I do not think add-ons should be banned and neither does ZOS -- "we are happy to have our fans modify the user interface of ESO to suit their playstyle."

mairwen85

SkerKro wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

So how can my fellow core teammate ( on console ) hit 85k on the iron atronach but hit ( on computer bc of the add-on that auto casts light attacks after each ability) hits 96k?
RIDDLE ME THAT!

Wait, so your teammate is running an illegal macro and you want to ban writ crafter?

The OP was trying to Ban subtitle add-ons bout 6months ago, and actually was one of the few to get Thurisaz Color Blind add-on discontinued despite ESO not actually having a proper color blind mode. So obviously their friend isn't the issue using macros - but clearly to the OP all add-ons are work of the daedric princes.

Say what now?

I'll have to make an enb filter now to put that right for people. Smh

An organisation I promote does these things as well as specialist controllers for disabilities... I guess they're all cheaters too.

https://www.specialeffect.org.uk/

Gilvoth

i have to agree that mods and add-ons should be Banned from eso. i have morrowind installed with about 60 mods, and it took alot of work to clean all of them and get through all the complicated problems that had to be fixed to run those mods and for morrowind to remain stable.
and i would NEVER play morrowind WITHOUT those mods because they just fix ALOT that bethesda could not and refused to do. and it just makes the game WAY sooooo much better including nudity and all kinds of stuff that interface and graphics ect ect that is needed in order to play morrowind.
but thats a single player game, and its ok to do things like that when im the only one playing it.
ESO is NOT like that, one of the ways to open a doors to cheats and exploits and all kinds of problems starts by allowing mods. when you are playing with other people, then the ability to mod the game Has to be Locked out and disabled.

Stebarnz

@Somber97866 Every post you write makes me sad for the world, I have a feeling we wouldn't get on!

Stop worrying about what others do that is unrelated to you (different platform) worry about your own s.h.i.t

Royaji

So someone who has pretty much zero idea about how add-ons work, what they can do and what they can't do tries to argue for their removal?

Just another day on the forums I guess.

cheifsoap

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

Thorvik_Tyrson

Jeremy wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

If it's a combat related add-on or mod ( excluding combat metrics ) it needs to banned as cheating bc it gives other platforms and unfair advantage.

We found something to semi agree on.

This is not going to be a popular position. But yeah - I would support banning addons. Not just the combat-related ones though. But all of them - and especially your combat metrics. I would also make it a permanent ban no questions asked if you were caught using macros (that's cheating and you won't convince me otherwise).

In my opinion: addons do more harm than good. Aside from the obvious advantages they give over other players - they also contribute to designer dependency. Developers are slow to enact needed features when an addon does it for them. The Guild Trader situation is a great example of that - where you are reliant on addons for what should be basic functions like an in-game price history. Then there is all the added bugs, performance issues etc. that go along with them. It's just a mess and I would prefer games not allow them.

This is the chicken and the egg catch-22. Because the Devs are slow, we need the addon's for basic game functionality.

I'm sorry, but my vote is also NO as the Devs are not putting the basic functionality into the game that I have in several other MMO's. Until that functionality is reached, I don't agree with a ban on all mods, or turning off the addon interface.

Some people play MMO's for the competition, others like me at this time are playing them for enjoyment of the game itself. We do not care about or desire to be in the competition. Your "unfair advantage" is affecting my enjoyment of the game.

If its a matter of game performance, I personally do not buy that its due to the addons. I have played plenty of other MMO's with addons and they did not make the game crawl or rubberband like I see ESO doing at times.

Stebarnz

Everyone saying 'level the playing field' What the F are you talking about!

It is level, you are on a level playing field with your platform!

Everything is better on PC so we have access to more stuff.

I don't moan that you can lounge on your couch like a sweaty pot head and play this game on console so stop moaning about my add ons!

Nobody with a brain looks at leaderboards and compares cross platform scores as its not relevant.

If you want to better your life, get a bath, get a pc, get some add ons, stop moaning about stuff that don't matter!

Alienoutlaw

the arguments here are as if addons have only just arrived to the game, for those against them simply dont use them. for those arguing about something that has no impact to their platform AT ALL you are simply filling the screen with nonsense

Crixus8000

And play this game with the in game buff tracker ? I think not. It takes me like 5mins to find my buffs in that thing.

mairwen85

Gilvoth wrote: »

i have to agree that mods and add-ons should be Banned from eso. i have morrowind installed with about 60 mods, and it took alot of work to clean all of them and get through all the complicated problems that had to be fixed to run those mods and for morrowind to remain stable.
and i would NEVER play morrowind WITHOUT those mods because they just fix ALOT that bethesda could not and refused to do. and it just makes the game WAY sooooo much better including nudity and all kinds of stuff that interface and graphics ect ect that is needed in order to play morrowind.
but thats a single player game, and its ok to do things like that when im the only one playing it.
ESO is NOT like that, one of the ways to open a doors to cheats and exploits and all kinds of problems starts by allowing mods. when you are playing with other people, then the ability to mod the game Has to be Locked out and disabled.

2 words: controlled api

ZOS chooses what data to provide via their api endpoints. They remove access to exploitable data or functionality.

All addons are ui extensions for already available information... Imagine the evils of that.

Alienoutlaw

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

logarifmik

Ban the RuESO Chat addon AFTER fixing the Cyrillic font, please. Thank you.

mairwen85

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

There's also the delay in applying hotfixes. All patches are uat and qa before zos can roll out. If an addon causes trouble or exposes a problem or exploitable endpoint, the ttf would be quite arduous.

cheifsoap

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

idk about Xbox but I can for a fact say that PS4 allows the use of addons through the in game Bethesda store. I have all kinds of good ones on Skyrim.

mairwen85

cheifsoap wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

idk about Xbox but I can for a fact say that PS4 allows the use of addons through the in game Bethesda store. I have all kinds of good ones on Skyrim.

Single player game with a static plug in engine - - different beast to a large multi player, multi component system, ever-changing mmo.

rotaugen454

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I use an add-on (Waze) in real life to get directions on my phone instead of memorizing my route. I’m cheating at life!

I suppose my banking app is cheating too, since I don’t show up at the bank with a hand written deposit slip like some customers.

Alienoutlaw

cheifsoap wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

idk about Xbox but I can for a fact say that PS4 allows the use of addons through the in game Bethesda store. I have all kinds of good ones on Skyrim.

as already said a static stable code that is 100% client side is different to a game that only has about 10% of the functionality client side and with constant changes almost on a daily basis with hot fix's and also weekly updates

Gilvoth

mairwen85 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i have to agree that mods and add-ons should be Banned from eso. i have morrowind installed with about 60 mods, and it took alot of work to clean all of them and get through all the complicated problems that had to be fixed to run those mods and for morrowind to remain stable.
and i would NEVER play morrowind WITHOUT those mods because they just fix ALOT that bethesda could not and refused to do. and it just makes the game WAY sooooo much better including nudity and all kinds of stuff that interface and graphics ect ect that is needed in order to play morrowind.
but thats a single player game, and its ok to do things like that when im the only one playing it.
ESO is NOT like that, one of the ways to open a doors to cheats and exploits and all kinds of problems starts by allowing mods. when you are playing with other people, then the ability to mod the game Has to be Locked out and disabled.

2 words: controlled api

ZOS chooses what data to provide via their api endpoints. They remove access to exploitable data or functionality.

All addons are ui extensions for already available information... Imagine the evils of that.

that did not happen
miats add-on allowed for and kept cheats in it.
and there are many many more that alot of people dont even know about.

The_Lex

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

So how can my fellow core teammate ( on console ) hit 85k on the iron atronach but hit ( on computer bc of the add-on that auto casts light attacks after each ability) hits 96k?
RIDDLE ME THAT!

Sounds like a macro. You can macro console controllers too with a little know how

We had a conversation similar to this a few weeks back where someone linked a few urls and a vid showing where to buy controller adapters to do just this.

i have to agree, this is an exploit and ALL macros are against ToS this is NOT an addon

I’m sure the ‘friend’ wouldn’t be using macros /s

lol i'm sure they are "not"

Yeah. Sounds like an urban legend; an over exaggeration to prove a point.

peacenote

Gilvoth wrote: »

i have morrowind installed with about 60 mods ...
and i would NEVER play morrowind WITHOUT those mods because ...it just makes the game WAY sooooo much better including nudity

LOL. Yes I snipped some of your quote but I don't think I changed your meaning. Good to know.

cheifsoap

mairwen85 wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

There's also the delay in applying hotfixes. All patches are uat and qa before zos can roll out. If an addon causes trouble or exposes a problem or exploitable endpoint, the ttf would be quite arduous.

I don't buy that anymore. Blizzard pushes out Diablo 3 updates and patches in parallel these days

Alienoutlaw

cheifsoap wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I actually tend to agree because this game is balanced around PC gamers which have access to mods. Mods are very nice for a lot of reasons but the most important reasons are the quality of life trackers and trial mods. Using mods shouldn't be considered cheating but there's a massive difference in playing the game on PC vs. Console, so perhaps disable the use of mods during PTS?

An alternative solution is to enable some sort of mod store like other Beth games have had for sometime and apply that to console to even the playing field.

i believe that microsoft will not allow the use of addons on their systems for the same reason they will not allow access to the PTS for xbox because they are 3rd party code (even if allowed by ZOS) and have no certifiable stability and as such could be a potential source of harm to the Xbox OS, not sure on the reasoning for PS4 someone will have to look into that i guess

There's also the delay in applying hotfixes. All patches are uat and qa before zos can roll out. If an addon causes trouble or exposes a problem or exploitable endpoint, the ttf would be quite arduous.

I don't buy that anymore. Blizzard pushes out Diablo 3 updates and patches in parallel these days

its true all the same

Orpheaus

QOL is not a priority for devs because QOL does not sell copies of the game. DLCs do. Additionally banning addons would be a demonstrably dumb decision because you're admitting that addons add to the QOL for players. We know they won't prioritize QOL as I said so all you would be doing is decreasing QOL. Btw the person who made this thread is clearly a troll.

The_Lex

If addons get banned, the player base will consist of 99% console players.

All *rational* arguments aside, ZOS is not going to ban addons. Full stop. You can cry and whine all you want, but you'll have to come to terms with that sooner or later.

Cirantille

I think the part you are missing is that ZoS needs to allow the add-ons.
Cheating type of add-ons can not even make their ways into game.

Ps. I am playing on PC with no add-ons

mairwen85

Gilvoth wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i have to agree that mods and add-ons should be Banned from eso. i have morrowind installed with about 60 mods, and it took alot of work to clean all of them and get through all the complicated problems that had to be fixed to run those mods and for morrowind to remain stable.
and i would NEVER play morrowind WITHOUT those mods because they just fix ALOT that bethesda could not and refused to do. and it just makes the game WAY sooooo much better including nudity and all kinds of stuff that interface and graphics ect ect that is needed in order to play morrowind.
but thats a single player game, and its ok to do things like that when im the only one playing it.
ESO is NOT like that, one of the ways to open a doors to cheats and exploits and all kinds of problems starts by allowing mods. when you are playing with other people, then the ability to mod the game Has to be Locked out and disabled.

2 words: controlled api

ZOS chooses what data to provide via their api endpoints. They remove access to exploitable data or functionality.

All addons are ui extensions for already available information... Imagine the evils of that.

that did not happen
miats add-on allowed for and kept cheats in it.
and there are many many more that alot of people dont even know about.

Yet they closed the recent desync chat exploit, and miats no longer works in full due to api changes.

Deathlord92

I’m a PS4 player and even I was like wtf pc Xbox PS4 are different platforms so pc has no advantage over console lol

VaranisArano

Gilvoth wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i have to agree that mods and add-ons should be Banned from eso. i have morrowind installed with about 60 mods, and it took alot of work to clean all of them and get through all the complicated problems that had to be fixed to run those mods and for morrowind to remain stable.
and i would NEVER play morrowind WITHOUT those mods because they just fix ALOT that bethesda could not and refused to do. and it just makes the game WAY sooooo much better including nudity and all kinds of stuff that interface and graphics ect ect that is needed in order to play morrowind.
but thats a single player game, and its ok to do things like that when im the only one playing it.
ESO is NOT like that, one of the ways to open a doors to cheats and exploits and all kinds of problems starts by allowing mods. when you are playing with other people, then the ability to mod the game Has to be Locked out and disabled.

2 words: controlled api

ZOS chooses what data to provide via their api endpoints. They remove access to exploitable data or functionality.

All addons are ui extensions for already available information... Imagine the evils of that.

that did not happen
miats add-on allowed for and kept cheats in it.
and there are many many more that alot of people dont even know about.

Its still true that all addons use the allowed API. It just so happens that sometimes the API allows things that ZOS later decides that players shouldn't have access to, and then they patch it. Miats, the old Group DPS add-on, and even the latest MM data pulls are examples of changes ZOS made to the API to adjust how available it is.

So where ZOS doesnt want people using the API in a certain way, they change it.

If you want an actual example of an add-on based exploit, look at the recent API changes regarding special characters. Addons were using the API as intended, but it let players cause problems. So, the chat API got changed AND players misusing the add-ons to exploit got temp bans.


Players who use things like Cheat Engine, on the other hand, want access to API functions that the Devs never intended for players to be allowed to change.

Somber97866

So auto light attack casting, auto casting abilities when the timer runs out and pre mechanic warnings are ok?