ESO Balance - Stop Bashing - Balance Concepts Explained

BlueRaven

karekiz wrote: »

I remember back when Woeler was in charge the general thought was ZoS balanced with a sledge hammer and needed an ice pick instead.

Hes out.

Now we balance with a nuke instead.

What is Woeler doing now? I always liked him.

Casterial

karekiz wrote: »

I remember back when Woeler was in charge the general thought was ZoS balanced with a sledge hammer and needed an ice pick instead.

Hes out.

Now we balance with a nuke instead.

Hahaha, wrobel went from QA to lead design, big jump! Hopefully after this year all will be smooth sailing. Generally what I think is weird is content is easier so we were nerfed. So we're weaker than we were a year ago, so there's no progression for a year?

Casterial

BlueRaven wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

I remember back when Woeler was in charge the general thought was ZoS balanced with a sledge hammer and needed an ice pick instead.

Hes out.

Now we balance with a nuke instead.

What is Woeler doing now? I always liked him.

Look him on LinkedIn

deviousthevile

Hey Cast, great post, glad to see you back in Cyrodiil, even if its to whoop my booty hole. To the people devaluing the OP, he is correct. The forums are NOT the avenue to give feedback unless it is in a dev created topic requesting such things, like

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493623/pts-update-24-feedback-thread-for-wardens#latest

Coming to the forums and creating these negative posts aren't going to do anything for anyone. You wouldn't reward a screaming child just to quiet them, would you? And if you say you would, your wrong. All that does is create a bigger problem. I agree with Cast when he says it's on the player base should to help ZoS identify and give suggestions by using the PTS server. This doesn't mean conjure a troll army to complain that YOU can't kill as easily as you could before. The game isn't structured around YOU. Whether there are hundreds, thousands or millions of players, changes affect them all, whether said changes go unnoticed by the general populus or not. There are so many people on the forums that would rather join a bash thread than those who give genuine feedback and suggestions. YOU people are the problem. If devs didn't have to wade through a thousand 'bash' topics to find a single one that is usable, constructive ideas, maybe there wouldn't be this disconnect between the devs, the combat team, and the players. I mean how do some of you read the stuff you post and not think some 4 year old having a temper tantrum wrote this?

I want this game to be happy and healthy, as most people do. We as a community need to stop focusing on ZoS' short comings (which there is a laundry list), and start focusing on how to be a part of the solution. We will never see the light at the end of the tunnel if we can't get passed all the complaining. And maybe we should focus on what we enjoy about the game rather than the mess that comes with every update/dlc/chapter. I've been around since the beginning and regardless of any change made, I've been able to adapt, which is what gaming is about (to me). Without it, I'd get bored. And yes it sucks farming trials or dungeons for gear, just to have it become less useful, we have all done it. That's why I don't decon old meta sets, I put them into cold storage, because when I do finally decon a set, it falls back into Merida's Grace, and I need to farm it all over again.

Sorry guys, I am kind of all over the place, but my point is this, be thankful for what you like and do what you can (constructively) to improve or make known, the issues that affect everyone. Do it in a way that doesn't make you come across as a jilted lover, hurt by changes you can't control. I promise there are ways to air your grievances that will produce results. People are more receptive and willing to help someone who is acting nicely. Either way, much love to you all and I hope things get better for you! And thank you Cast for creating a topic for those of us who might not be thrilled with the changes, but can handle them!

Neoauspex

Thanks for the constructive write-up OP. I do wish they would do more balancing by introducing counters to things rather than these constant tooltip adjustments. One of the great things about this game is the constant introduction new sets, new skills, and new content in general. Seems like that's where there's a great opportunity to make balance changes that don't drastically affect people's previously constructed builds.

Canned_Apples

Casterial wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler his vision is to introduce class identity- It's why he over buffed all non-class abilities.
#devlogic

Well it did buff a lot of class skills as well. It's just now a lot of classes are losing that. My Templar for example has a blank empty slot on bars now haha

As I said, they buffed EVERYTHING and because they buffed those generic dots as well, EVERYTHING is getting hit by Volendrung. They should only *slightly* reduce class dots, and hit the generic dots harder. Class skills should've always been significantly better than generic ones. -but I'm not @ZOS_BrianWheeler -so my criticism and opinion, like everyone else's, does not matter.

xeha_arwen11

BlueRaven wrote: »

I like how the assumption is that if we give feedback, it will change anything.

Do I need to remind the OP about the racial changes debacle? Do I need to link the 70+ thread begging to change the Bosmer passives? How did that go?

Face it. They "say" they want our feedback, the reality is they want the feedback from about 5-6 chosen people. The rest of us don't matter.

This. There have been many times where polls and other things were taken, and the vast majority of people begged and pleaded with zos to stop "this" change or "that" change. ZOS NEVER listened. The changes went through anyway. Feedback will change nothing. This has been proven in the past countless times. Only a select few of the "holy chosen" will ever get anything changed, and their changes have generally ended up breaking gameplay even more.

Canned_Apples

xeha_arwen11 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I like how the assumption is that if we give feedback, it will change anything.

Do I need to remind the OP about the racial changes debacle? Do I need to link the 70+ thread begging to change the Bosmer passives? How did that go?

Face it. They "say" they want our feedback, the reality is they want the feedback from about 5-6 chosen people. The rest of us don't matter.

This. There have been many times where polls and other things were taken, and the vast majority of people begged and pleaded with zos to stop "this" change or "that" change. ZOS NEVER listened. The changes went through anyway. Feedback will change nothing. This has been proven in the past countless times. Only a select few of the "holy chosen" will ever get anything changed, and their changes have generally ended up breaking gameplay even more.

@xeha_arwen11 Potatoes! They most definitively care about our feedback. It makes for a great drinking game. Every time someone posts something logical/reasonable, they take a drink and a chug when* the majority of the people agree with those suggestions!
Potatoes I tell you, POTATOES!!!

Casterial

Canned_Apples wrote: »

xeha_arwen11 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I like how the assumption is that if we give feedback, it will change anything.

Do I need to remind the OP about the racial changes debacle? Do I need to link the 70+ thread begging to change the Bosmer passives? How did that go?

Face it. They "say" they want our feedback, the reality is they want the feedback from about 5-6 chosen people. The rest of us don't matter.

This. There have been many times where polls and other things were taken, and the vast majority of people begged and pleaded with zos to stop "this" change or "that" change. ZOS NEVER listened. The changes went through anyway. Feedback will change nothing. This has been proven in the past countless times. Only a select few of the "holy chosen" will ever get anything changed, and their changes have generally ended up breaking gameplay even more.

@xeha_arwen11 Potatoes! They most definitively care about our feedback. It makes for a great drinking game. Every time someone posts something logical/reasonable, they take a drink and a chug with the majority of the people agree with those suggestions!
Potatoes I tell you, POTATOES!!!

I wish we had a laughing response like Facebook's too true.

TheHsN

Casterial wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Sorry, I just can't take it seriously when one patch a skill needs to be buffed because it was allegedly underperforming, and then needs to be buffed worse than original because it's now allegedly overperforming.

Well, play PTS. Back yourself up on your theories. Help them. The PTS always has like 10 - 20 players, not nearly enough compared to forums.

Also, sometimes reverting is good
ZOS use to not revert bad changes. I'm just hoping they way over did the numbers, we'll see

We play PTS almost more than the actual server.....

Kel

Casterial wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

xeha_arwen11 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I like how the assumption is that if we give feedback, it will change anything.

Do I need to remind the OP about the racial changes debacle? Do I need to link the 70+ thread begging to change the Bosmer passives? How did that go?

Face it. They "say" they want our feedback, the reality is they want the feedback from about 5-6 chosen people. The rest of us don't matter.

This. There have been many times where polls and other things were taken, and the vast majority of people begged and pleaded with zos to stop "this" change or "that" change. ZOS NEVER listened. The changes went through anyway. Feedback will change nothing. This has been proven in the past countless times. Only a select few of the "holy chosen" will ever get anything changed, and their changes have generally ended up breaking gameplay even more.

@xeha_arwen11 Potatoes! They most definitively care about our feedback. It makes for a great drinking game. Every time someone posts something logical/reasonable, they take a drink and a chug with the majority of the people agree with those suggestions!
Potatoes I tell you, POTATOES!!!

I wish we had a laughing response like Facebook's too true.

Kinda funny, the devs in this video are saying the best way to give feedback isn't on PTS or using in game functions...it's using the forum.

Totally defeating the purpose of this thread. Sound bite about feedback starts at 2:09 of this video, where they say the best place to give feedback is the forum.
https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

peacenote

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Valid points, but devs don't follow them.

If there is target to nerf PVE dps in sake of more group oriented gameplay (though in top guilds it is already group oriented), then it should be clearly stated in patch notes. Something like this:

"We notice that majority of PVE group content became too easy to bypass by high group dps, thus we are planning to drastically decrease damage output to motivate players to use more diverse gameplay and tight group coordination". There is no such message, just -50%, -63%, -33%, +65% cost and so on...

This. 100% this.

OP, I think your thoughts are welcome and helpful and good for the very reactive folks (you all know who you are) to keep in mind as they think about the changes.

However, a relationship is a two-way street and if the devs really depend on us to provide feedback by participating in the PTS, they absolutely need to be more clear about what major potential changes are trying to accomplish. Last patch brought about sweeping changes to the healing role. The forum was alight with debates that wasted everyone's time because they were based on incorrect assumptions. However assumptions were all we had. Literally people wasted hours of time speculating if the changes were because of PvP or because healing was "easy mode" or because they were trying to make a more dynamic rotation or whatever. AFTER everything was said and done it was confirmed that those particular changes were primarily due to performance.

Conversations would have been much more productive if the message "hi, we need to adjust healing because it is contributing to the performance issues on our servers, can you give us feedback on if these changes are workable?" had been stated up front. Responses about PTS could have been directed towards whether healers felt effective enough and suggestions could have been given based on the understand that the servers couldn't handle the math wrt layered heals. But no. Healers were left in a position defending their roles and guessing why the changes were made and what exactly they were supposed to be looking for on PTS.

I love this game and have been a part of the community for a long time, but to be able to assist in the way you describe we have to be treated more like partners in the process.

MojaveHeld

peacenote wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Valid points, but devs don't follow them.

If there is target to nerf PVE dps in sake of more group oriented gameplay (though in top guilds it is already group oriented), then it should be clearly stated in patch notes. Something like this:

"We notice that majority of PVE group content became too easy to bypass by high group dps, thus we are planning to drastically decrease damage output to motivate players to use more diverse gameplay and tight group coordination". There is no such message, just -50%, -63%, -33%, +65% cost and so on...

This. 100% this.

OP, I think your thoughts are welcome and helpful and good for the very reactive folks (you all know who you are) to keep in mind as they think about the changes.

However, a relationship is a two-way street and if the devs really depend on us to provide feedback by participating in the PTS, they absolutely need to be more clear about what major potential changes are trying to accomplish. Last patch brought about sweeping changes to the healing role. The forum was alight with debates that wasted everyone's time because they were based on incorrect assumptions. However assumptions were all we had. Literally people wasted hours of time speculating if the changes were because of PvP or because healing was "easy mode" or because they were trying to make a more dynamic rotation or whatever. AFTER everything was said and done it was confirmed that those particular changes were primarily due to performance.

Conversations would have been much more productive if the message "hi, we need to adjust healing because it is contributing to the performance issues on our servers, can you give us feedback on if these changes are workable?" had been stated up front. Responses about PTS could have been directed towards whether healers felt effective enough and suggestions could have been given based on the understand that the servers couldn't handle the math wrt layered heals. But no. Healers were left in a position defending their roles and guessing why the changes were made and what exactly they were supposed to be looking for on PTS.

I love this game and have been a part of the community for a long time, but to be able to assist in the way you describe we have to be treated more like partners in the process.

That relationship is I think what's got so many players so angry right now. ZOS just treated all of their players like crap and showed complete disdain for the playerbase with these patch notes. They gave their players the middle finger, simply because they could. And so there's essentially no way for experienced players to trust ZOS now. You lose the benefit of the doubt when you act like a scumbag towards your own players, especially when it's for no reason. The only way for ZOS to even begin to regain that trust is to admit how wrong what they did was, revert all changes, and probably make some staff changes on the combat team so that nothing like this will ever happen again. If they're not willing to learn some humility and do that, the relationship isn't salvageable.

Dragonnord

@Casterial Regardless who you were or are, you don't have a clue. It's as simple as we can't create builds anymore in this game because as soon as you decide what build you are going to use, gold the gear out, practice and start to use it, ZOS changes everything and all you did and constructed was a waste of time since the build doesn't do anymore what it was doing when you created it. So you are back to zero. An endless loop of gold, mats, time and will thrown to the trash can.

MasterSpatula

"If you choose not to be a for-free playtester, you shouldn't complain about changes where you can clearly tell what the affects will be just by looking at the numbers."

I don't need to go on the PTS to know that decreasing damage and increasing cost of an ability that's already underperforming is going to make that ability worse.

I don't need to be a game developer to know that when you have some players that struggle with content that other players breeze through effortlessly, applying blanket nerfs to abilities rather than to the methods the top players use to reach their extreme numbers is "balancing to the majority" only if you're intentionally trying to make things worse for the masses or if you're stunningly bad at your job.

Two years ago, I didn't need to go on the PTS (though I did do so) to know that when some players really struggle with sustain and other have infinite resources, blanket-nerfing sustain was going to leave the overpowered overpowered while weakening the weak. And that's what it did. You didn't have to go on the PTS to know this, though many of us did go to confirm the obvious and have our point ignored in every PTS forum post, every Q&A, every possible forum where it was raised. What's the point in PTS when something is obvious, you prove it's true anyway, and they just pretend no one's even saying it?

Out-of-control power creep affects elite players the most. Blanket nerfs affect casuals and players who are progressing/improving the most. I don't need to spend the leisure time that I pay for doing a playtester's job for them to know that. As an ex-president once said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, can't get fooled again."

(And I'll readily acknowledge the Morrowind sustain changes weren't as bad as feared, but they still affected those without excessive sustain far more than they affected those with it.)

Casterial

Dragonnord wrote: »

@Casterial Regardless who you were or are, you don't have a clue. It's as simple as we can't create builds anymore in this game because as soon as you decide what build you are going to use, gold the gear out, practice it and start to use it, ZOS changes everything and all you did and constructed was a waste if time since it doesn't do what it was doing when you build it. So you are back to zero. An endless loop of gold, mats, time and will thrown to the trash can.

Arax, myself, and several others theory craft builds non-stop and go through maybe a few million gold doing so until we find a likable build. I do think ESO is jumping ship too fast and changing meta while we're STILL recovering.

And as I also said previously, its rather weird we're "losing progression" you know? We are backstepping heavily.

Also for theorycrafting you never gold gear.

Casterial

Kel wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

xeha_arwen11 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I like how the assumption is that if we give feedback, it will change anything.

Do I need to remind the OP about the racial changes debacle? Do I need to link the 70+ thread begging to change the Bosmer passives? How did that go?

Face it. They "say" they want our feedback, the reality is they want the feedback from about 5-6 chosen people. The rest of us don't matter.

This. There have been many times where polls and other things were taken, and the vast majority of people begged and pleaded with zos to stop "this" change or "that" change. ZOS NEVER listened. The changes went through anyway. Feedback will change nothing. This has been proven in the past countless times. Only a select few of the "holy chosen" will ever get anything changed, and their changes have generally ended up breaking gameplay even more.

@xeha_arwen11 Potatoes! They most definitively care about our feedback. It makes for a great drinking game. Every time someone posts something logical/reasonable, they take a drink and a chug with the majority of the people agree with those suggestions!
Potatoes I tell you, POTATOES!!!

I wish we had a laughing response like Facebook's too true.

Kinda funny, the devs in this video are saying the best way to give feedback isn't on PTS or using in game functions...it's using the forum.

Totally defeating the purpose of this thread. Sound bite about feedback starts at 2:09 of this video, where they say the best place to give feedback is the forum.
https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

You didn't read fully.

You go onto the PTS, back your claim then make a forum post. You don't start at the forum. Why complain with 0 evidence? You use the PTS to heavily back you up. You wouldn't give someone a reward for claiming, would you? Now if they had concrete evidence and brought it forward then you would.

tldr; PTS -> Test -> Forums, not Forums -> Cry -> Forums

edit:
You usually can tell what will happen by reading it and applying it in a calculator, but better to be sure and test it.

yes, dots are trash mine does 300dmg/sec

wavingblue

Thank god console doesn't have add-ons as the gameplay there is hunky dorey! No issues, everything is perfect, no lag, no delays just good proper ESO!

Casterial

wavingblue wrote: »

Thank god console doesn't have add-ons as the gameplay there is hunky dorey! No issues, everything is perfect, no lag, no delays just good proper ESO!

Is this sarcasm?

x48rph

See while your post sounds great in theroy and would be cool if it worked that way, we all know it doesn't. You can post all the data and tests you want and ZOS will ignore most of it. Once it hits PTS, they only tweaks some stuff and fix some bugs, and not even all the ones that get reported. There's little hope they will actually go back on what they've changed in any significant way until the following cycle ( where they will probably rebuff every thing they nerfed )

Casterial

x48rph wrote: »

See while your post sounds great in theroy and would be cool if it worked that way, we all know it doesn't. You can post all the data and tests you want and ZOS will ignore most of it. Once it hits PTS, they only tweaks some stuff and fix some bugs, and not even all the ones that get reported. There's little hope they will actually go back on what they've changed in any significant way until the following cycle ( where they will probably rebuff every thing they nerfed )

Thats why im hoping we constructively tell them this is bad, not just nag and cry.

wavingblue

Casterial wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

See while your post sounds great in theroy and would be cool if it worked that way, we all know it doesn't. You can post all the data and tests you want and ZOS will ignore most of it. Once it hits PTS, they only tweaks some stuff and fix some bugs, and not even all the ones that get reported. There's little hope they will actually go back on what they've changed in any significant way until the following cycle ( where they will probably rebuff every thing they nerfed )

Thats why im hoping we constructively tell them this is bad, not just nag and cry.

They were constructively told multi-bidding was utterly stinkingly awful... and it was jammed down our throats anyways with the fully expected obligatory complete meltdown of that lesser server farm.

Coatmagic

Except that:

These changes are constantly being done ONLY BECAUSE these stubborn idjits refuse to
STOP TRYING TO BALANCE PVP & PVE
and the community is not helping by fighting with each other over these things when they should be screaming for ZoS to
DISABLE CERTAIN SKILLS, SETS, CP etc in PvP

Morgul667

Been there done that

feedback are completely ignored

Am not wasting more time on pts feedback

Canned_Apples

Morgul667 wrote: »

Been there done that

feedback are completely ignored

Am not wasting more time on pts feedback

They should give us a reward for playing the pts and providing feedback that they'll never bother reading.
A free pet or mount would draw more people into the pts and should help flood the forum explaining to them why their changes are so bad.

max_only

Respectfully, no.

Sometimes they absolutely phone things in and change them for the sake of changing and don’t have any compelling reasons for their decisions. You can have a all the evidence in the world.
1. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459007/wood-elf-bosmer-losing-stealth-passive-an-open-letter/p1

2. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453572/bosmer-racial-change-that-is-illogical-and-unnecessary/p1

3.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.

Feric51 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.

I'm confused. That whole sentence reads like a non sequitur. Let's look at each phrase....

• We reduced the damage of [the] bear so we could buff the base damage of wardens - So, sounds like the changes they made to wardens in general should be a boost to all DPS skills that are not the bear.
  
• the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species - Advanced Species buff was an additional 1% damage (3% instead of 2%) per animal ability slotted, so by slotting the bear you gain an additional 3% damage over a non-bear user to compensate for the 30% damage reduction of the bear. However, if you didn't previously use the bear and had several other Animal Companion abilities slotted, it sounds like a net DPS gain. Cool.
  
• This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss. - Huh? You just said the changes to Warden were a buff to everything but the bear, yet the final statement says non-bear users will see "less of a loss"? So that means all wardens are expected to see a net DPS loss, those who use the bear will just be hit harder?

Even after explaining it to myself, I'm still confused....

Wardens are now top dps right? Right?

Cadbury

Casterial wrote: »

x48rph wrote: »

See while your post sounds great in theroy and would be cool if it worked that way, we all know it doesn't. You can post all the data and tests you want and ZOS will ignore most of it. Once it hits PTS, they only tweaks some stuff and fix some bugs, and not even all the ones that get reported. There's little hope they will actually go back on what they've changed in any significant way until the following cycle ( where they will probably rebuff every thing they nerfed )

Thats why im hoping we constructively tell them this is bad, not just nag and cry.

At this point, I'm content to just suffer in silence. It's ok. I'm a console player. We survive.

Korah_Eaglecry

lordrichter wrote: »

stuartx13 wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Well, play PTS. Back yourself up on your theories. Help them. The PTS always has like 10 - 20 players, not nearly enough compared to forums.

Ok you are just wrong.How can we keep doing PTS when feedback is just blow off.

Most of the feedback that I read here on the forums is crap. I see a lot of feedback based on "patch notes analysis", not to mention those that just rephrase someone else's "patch notes analysis". It's crap. Plain and simple. ZOS sees it, but there is not a lot for them to act upon. That is why they don't "listen".

As suggested by the OP, people who feel strongly that this is the wrong direction need to get on PTS and show them. That is going to take time. It means more than just a few minutes standing in front of a target dummy. Oh, look, my DPS is lower.

ZOS monitors the players as they play the game, both on Live and PTS. They have said so, repeatedly. If people get on PTS and test out the changes, ZOS can compare what they see on PTS with both Live and what they are expecting from Update 24.

Someone was talking about "back and forth" decisions. That can easily happen if they don't get enough data from PTS and the Live data, after the Update is released, has to be used. After release, the players on Live are still being monitored. Any data that they do not get from PTS, they get from Live.

Except they have class reps and even numerous well written thesis level explanations every patch as to why their changes are bad and they still ignore it preferring the changes that they will inevitably change again 3 months later.

Its not just crap feedback. Its all of the feedback and its not like the good feedback is hidden away or something.

Im sorry, but this continuous defensive excusing of ZOS inability to drill home a solid idea of what they want and about how its the playerbases fault for not giving the right feedback is, well crap.

Korah_Eaglecry

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

Been there done that

feedback are completely ignored

Am not wasting more time on pts feedback

They should give us a reward for playing the pts and providing feedback that they'll never bother reading.
A free pet or mount would draw more people into the pts and should help flood the forum explaining to them why their changes are so bad.

Theyre more than welcome to start paying me wages for any time spent testing their game for them.

Morimizo

Casterial wrote: »

And as I also said previously, its rather weird we're "losing progression" you know? We are backstepping heavily.

Perhaps it might help soothe the sting of these hyperbolic changes to think of this game as an innovative Aging Simulator:

Elderly Scrolls Online, a Regression Playing Game; the longer you play, the worse you get!! How fun! How satisfying!