ESO Balance - Stop Bashing - Balance Concepts Explained

Bashev

OP do you still believe that ZoS will make some changes based on the feedback? Do you start to realize that the PTS is just a demo of the incoming content?

casparian

Thanks for being a voice of reason, OP.

Casterial

Bashev wrote: »

OP do you still believe that ZoS will make some changes based on the feedback? Do you start to realize that the PTS is just a demo of the incoming content?

Damn you necro'd. Anyways they do/do not. There's been plenty of things which changed based on feedback, plenty of things that haven't. They just need to talk to the community more.

casparian wrote: »

Thanks for being a voice of reason, OP.

I try.

ATreeGnome

Casterial wrote: »

Hello ESO,

Many know me, but many don’t. Back in the day I ran a lot of community events, tournaments, and helped run Legend. Eventually I took a solid 3 year break (2016-2019). I’d play occasionally here or there, but I was busy working.

What did/do I do? I was a Technical Combat Designer @ EA for a while where I helped balance several units and maintained a 5% w/l rate between the best and worst unit in the game.
^ I stated this to back my knowledge

Now why am I writing this?
Many people are bashing ZOS over these balance changes. While I agree, I do think they’re severe I’ll tell you why you should support them and definitely play the PTS.

Balance is usually done of the following:

• Feel - The feel of the skill, or the combo
• Combo/Counterplay - How powerful is the combo, and does it have a counterplay? How common is the counterplay to the combo/meta?
• Data - Does the data back it up, or not support our investigation results?

Many people are quite angry over the Cycle 1 balance changes on the PTS, but no one is on the PTS heavily to help test and give feedback to the developers, the combat team, and our class reps. This feedback is crucial in the early stages, with few have true evidence to back their claim it gives them little reason to make big changes.

Let me bring up a thing thats largely upsetting for me, and probably you.

• 63% nerf to all dots across the board.

Everyone is like “This is huge!” And well, you’re right. The change is drastic. But often in balance (PTS) it's usually done in internal testing, ZOS lets theirs public.

Why are the numbers as drastic?
Minimal changes very rarely shift anything, so to see what comes out or what needs real changing to tweak back balancers usually watch the meta develop of the time until they finally develop a finalized patch note ready to be released. In order to continually shift it down you start high, if you don't start high then you have to find whats too much. Now they can scale down.
This isn't considered good balancing methods, but it works to drop data to where you want it.

Why is crucial for us to play PTS?
You can’t back up your claim without large testing. Balance teams are often small and rely on select players to help balance the game based on feedback loops.

Why Shouldn't I just post on Forums?
You can, like the devs said. Posting on forums using official feedback forums, or just making your own is the most effective way. Here's the catch though, we can't just post instantly. While we do see the numbers are bad, we should still have supporting evidence. This brings me back to the PTS, test then post. Don't just post. Often times they just overlook those who just post and not have any real claims.

disclaimer: yes, you can punch in the numbers from patch notes into a calculator and see how bad it is, this is still evidence. Most don't even say that. Use your evidence!

Why do they change meta so often?
Honestly, they don’t. I use to change meta monthly sometimes in huge major ways, sometimes I’d just revert back. Meta changes keep the game alive, balance is finicky, combat is finicky. Why? Because it IS the game, any change can churn players. So be patient, help them.

It seems like ZOS is trying to run us away!
No, it is the best interest of ZOS to keep everyone here. The thing is though, they don’t balance based on top tier or lower tier. They balance based on the average player. So for PVE the average DPS (casuals) and for PVP the average zerger (casual). This is to make sure the game is fair for vast majority and not the minority. Why keep 10 happy when you can keep 90 happy?
-Disclaimer, I don’t know if this is what ZOS does, but the majority of games do this.

What can we do?
I cannot stress it enough, as a player you should be playing the PTS if you want to see some changes happen. You should be constantly trying to help them to see more results you want. Developers are always open, while they have their vision, they know sometimes players know more.

Why are the forums blowing up that its bad?
Often times the few are the loudest. So while majority are contempt, the few are not and will raise hell to make sure everyone jumps on their ship. Just sail it out



Is ESO doing a bad job?
Not at all, while I sometimes joke, or get vocal about how bad some changes are I always sit down and remember when I use to do this it was the same from players to me. But in the end players adapted and made amazing things come out of the dust!


Remember, be nice to your community manager @ZOS_GinaBruno and be nice to the combat team They have a vision, they have a goal and it's to make the game for fun, more fair, and definitely to keep players playing!

Thanks for reading this

-Casterial, Kill Counter developer

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. If we, the player base, want to see the game improve we need to provide data as well as opinion based feedback.

It's a lot harder to stick with those ideas though when you've watched or participated in all if the PTS cycles over the past few years though.

Last PTS, the community provided overwhelming evidence that DOTs were over performing and it essentially got ignored. Now they are swinging back the other direction to make them even weaker than they were before those buffs.

Before that, it was stamina Necromancers being too powerful and benefitting too much from stacking as many of them as you can in a group. We're finally seeing some significant changes 2 DLCs when ample data was provided during the initial PTS. Even then, the change that's happening is more of a bandaid than an actual address to the issues.

It seems like there's something big that the community brings up with each PTS, with data and evidence, that just gets outright ignored. It's exhausting and frustrating.

Will they listen this time? Maybe.

The first iteration of the DOT changes for this PTS cycle are so extreme that it makes it hard for me to have faith that they will be pulled back to a good spot by the time the DLC goes live, no matter how much data is generated.

I'm not saying that the community shouldn't test on the PTS, we most definitely should, but that has only done so much historically and the only other ways we can try to send our message are on the forums or with our wallets.

Madhatten512

I would agree with the op in fact I have done those things I spent days and days in the last pts cycle I sent tickets I posted problem areas on the forums and what happened the pushed it live anyway... They don't listen they release bad changes then sledgehammer those changes the next patch and release more bad changes... So why should I waste my time testing this garbage and that's what these pts changes are garbage and give feedback to a bunch of people that are just going to do what they want to do anyway.. No Thanks I don't care what they do anymore and obviously no one else really does either.

Casterial

Doubt they're listening. Check the new notes nothing changed.

Austinseph1

If there is no resounding disagreement they assume it’s okay, they need to understand how displeased we are with changes because most people don’t bother voicing complaints. They just leave for a better game. That’s how a game can slowly die off. The cast time on shields was awful for both PvE and PvP and it is great that we voiced that hard enough to force the change. In general cast times are clunky and not good when trying to fluidly damage something. Now we have to tell them that wholesale pendulum metas that pop up and swing the whole other way every 3 months is bad otherwise you get things like what we have had to deal with for the last year.

vamp_emily

Reward the beta testers with crown crates or something else like a beta tester mount.

Glarin

Casterial wrote: »

Hello ESO,

Many know me, but many don’t. Back in the day I ran a lot of community events, tournaments, and helped run Legend. Eventually I took a solid 3 year break (2016-2019). I’d play occasionally here or there, but I was busy working.

What did/do I do? I was a Technical Combat Designer @ EA for a while where I helped balance several units and maintained a 5% w/l rate between the best and worst unit in the game.
^ I stated this to back my knowledge

Now why am I writing this?
Many people are bashing ZOS over these balance changes. While I agree, I do think they’re severe I’ll tell you why you should support them and definitely play the PTS.

Balance is usually done of the following:

• Feel - The feel of the skill, or the combo
• Combo/Counterplay - How powerful is the combo, and does it have a counterplay? How common is the counterplay to the combo/meta?
• Data - Does the data back it up, or not support our investigation results?

Many people are quite angry over the Cycle 1 balance changes on the PTS, but no one is on the PTS heavily to help test and give feedback to the developers, the combat team, and our class reps. This feedback is crucial in the early stages, with few have true evidence to back their claim it gives them little reason to make big changes.

Let me bring up a thing thats largely upsetting for me, and probably you.

• 63% nerf to all dots across the board.

Everyone is like “This is huge!” And well, you’re right. The change is drastic. But often in balance (PTS) it's usually done in internal testing, ZOS lets theirs public.

Why are the numbers as drastic?
Minimal changes very rarely shift anything, so to see what comes out or what needs real changing to tweak back balancers usually watch the meta develop of the time until they finally develop a finalized patch note ready to be released. In order to continually shift it down you start high, if you don't start high then you have to find whats too much. Now they can scale down.
This isn't considered good balancing methods, but it works to drop data to where you want it.

Why is crucial for us to play PTS?
You can’t back up your claim without large testing. Balance teams are often small and rely on select players to help balance the game based on feedback loops.

Why Shouldn't I just post on Forums?
You can, like the devs said. Posting on forums using official feedback forums, or just making your own is the most effective way. Here's the catch though, we can't just post instantly. While we do see the numbers are bad, we should still have supporting evidence. This brings me back to the PTS, test then post. Don't just post. Often times they just overlook those who just post and not have any real claims.

disclaimer: yes, you can punch in the numbers from patch notes into a calculator and see how bad it is, this is still evidence. Most don't even say that. Use your evidence!

Why do they change meta so often?
Honestly, they don’t. I use to change meta monthly sometimes in huge major ways, sometimes I’d just revert back. Meta changes keep the game alive, balance is finicky, combat is finicky. Why? Because it IS the game, any change can churn players. So be patient, help them.

It seems like ZOS is trying to run us away!
No, it is the best interest of ZOS to keep everyone here. The thing is though, they don’t balance based on top tier or lower tier. They balance based on the average player. So for PVE the average DPS (casuals) and for PVP the average zerger (casual). This is to make sure the game is fair for vast majority and not the minority. Why keep 10 happy when you can keep 90 happy?
-Disclaimer, I don’t know if this is what ZOS does, but the majority of games do this.

What can we do?
I cannot stress it enough, as a player you should be playing the PTS if you want to see some changes happen. You should be constantly trying to help them to see more results you want. Developers are always open, while they have their vision, they know sometimes players know more.

Why are the forums blowing up that its bad?
Often times the few are the loudest. So while majority are contempt, the few are not and will raise hell to make sure everyone jumps on their ship. Just sail it out



Is ESO doing a bad job?
Not at all, while I sometimes joke, or get vocal about how bad some changes are I always sit down and remember when I use to do this it was the same from players to me. But in the end players adapted and made amazing things come out of the dust!


Remember, be nice to your community manager @ZOS_GinaBruno and be nice to the combat team They have a vision, they have a goal and it's to make the game for fun, more fair, and definitely to keep players playing!

Thanks for reading this

-Casterial, Kill Counter developer

SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!

Casterial

vamp_emily wrote: »

Reward the beta testers with crown crates or something else like a beta tester mount.

Would be good incentive

eso_lytw8

OP I like the optimism, but after all these years its pretty clear they don't utilize PTS feedback. Only when they have made the most grave mistakes have they reverted but this is few and far between and the mistakes were so large it didn't require PTS testing. It just had to be identified with 30-60 pages of forum complaints.

The larger benefit for PTS is allow people to get a jump on what is to come so we already know builds to use and end game competitive guilds have knowledge of new group dungeons and raids, but since we don't have this there isn't much to do on PTS hence the reason no one is using it.

The other issue is that what is really broken is not end game dps, its class identity. And there isn't much to test. Class identity is what needs fixing not PVP balance nor DPS. I have given this feedback until I am blue in the face, Now maybe its has helped focused them on the changes they've made its hard to say, but the current lack of fun playing each class is not a PTS thing. They need to listen to the forums if they want to fix this.

Hashtag_

LOL @ you if you have faith in ZOS.

Casterial

eso_lytw8 wrote: »

OP I like the optimism, but after all these years its pretty clear they don't utilize PTS feedback. Only when they have made the most grave mistakes have they reverted but this is few and far between and the mistakes were so large it didn't require PTS testing. It just had to be identified with 30-60 pages of forum complaints.

The larger benefit for PTS is allow people to get a jump on what is to come so we already know builds to use and end game competitive guilds have knowledge of new group dungeons and raids, but since we don't have this there isn't much to do on PTS hence the reason no one is using it.

The other issue is that what is really broken is not end game dps, its class identity. And there isn't much to test. Class identity is what needs fixing not PVP balance nor DPS. I have given this feedback until I am blue in the face, Now maybe its has helped focused them on the changes they've made its hard to say, but the current lack of fun playing each class is not a PTS thing. They need to listen to the forums if they want to fix this.

Despite me constantly saying play, I saw the new patch notes and got war flash backs of previous patches and how they didn't listen... Well all we can do is hope they'll listen now ? Lol

Casterial

Hashtag_ wrote: »

LOL @ you if you have faith in ZOS.

Never said I have faith, I said back your statements up, read through all the post where I'm not for this patch, and in original I said their approach is bad.

eso_lytw8

Casterial wrote: »

eso_lytw8 wrote: »

OP I like the optimism, but after all these years its pretty clear they don't utilize PTS feedback. Only when they have made the most grave mistakes have they reverted but this is few and far between and the mistakes were so large it didn't require PTS testing. It just had to be identified with 30-60 pages of forum complaints.

The larger benefit for PTS is allow people to get a jump on what is to come so we already know builds to use and end game competitive guilds have knowledge of new group dungeons and raids, but since we don't have this there isn't much to do on PTS hence the reason no one is using it.

The other issue is that what is really broken is not end game dps, its class identity. And there isn't much to test. Class identity is what needs fixing not PVP balance nor DPS. I have given this feedback until I am blue in the face, Now maybe its has helped focused them on the changes they've made its hard to say, but the current lack of fun playing each class is not a PTS thing. They need to listen to the forums if they want to fix this.

Despite me constantly saying play, I saw the new patch notes and got war flash backs of previous patches and how they didn't listen... Well all we can do is hope they'll listen now ? Lol

I agree, I really hope they listen. I dropped my sub and haven't played in 3 months, it just wasn't fun anymore. But I am hopeful they will get the message and make this game amazing again. I realize I may be a small minority type of player. I enjoy classes being unique which means they will be situationally different. Maybe the greater population wants the classes to all be the same just more cosmetically different and if that's true the direction the game is taking is better for that group. I'm hanging in waiting to see that maybe they bring back the classes, unfortunately my favorite class for feel is nightblade, but they've taken so much from that class it just feels hollow now and its unlikely they will restore it anytime soon, if ever.

Lord_Wrath

I just want to say cheers, I see you in Riften almost everyday. Fun little crowd it seems.

This is the best post ive read in a long long time. Every major change we have always found a way through and dealt with it fine. Learning curves are always a pain but hey what else can you do.

Ratzkifal

Or give up, because ZOS doesn't listen to evidence either. It's just luck whether things change the way you want or not. Chances are if something you pointed out got fixed you just happened to share ZOS' predetermined and unchanging opinion.

Just remember the Bosmer stealth change literally nobody was happy about that got lot's of evidence on several fronts backing it up, even with some testing and bug finding, and nothing has been done about it for months to this very day and probably will be done up to the release of U24.

It's not easy to stay positive about these things when there is zero engagement with the community about these changes and they don't even listen to the community concerns when voiced by the class reps.

ACamaroGuy

I don't feel like an end game player anymore. I did the grind and time. I should be able to smash my way through things with ease. I earned that right. It's not cool when I'm leveling a new toon and I feel like I'm playing my maxed toon. Sustain is now horrible and I mean horrible, magicka players still underperform, and the nerf of dps across the board is crap. There's no difference in builds anymore. Stamina dps builds Relequens, Lokkestiiz and magicka builds require False God's Devotion, Mother's Sorrow. Look at that. Nothing special going on here folks...just keep moving along. Close the gap, open up diversity and give us class identity. No basic/standard skill line should outperform or cost less then a class ability. Sorcerer...that class needs a strong class ability.

ACamaroGuy

vamp_emily wrote: »

Reward the beta testers with crown crates or something else like a beta tester mount.

Not really fair to console users.

seira_san

Perhaps if they provide much smaller PTS (e.g. a copy of a zone instead of the entire game) that might actually entice more ppl to go over to PTS.

Also it has been mentioned above somewhere, but the whole testing and feedback thing feels so unstructured! I suppose they can get quantitative data from PTS combat logs but they're missing out the qualitative (or affective) data which is the player's feedback. I think it would be helpful if ZOS provide a set of questions (e.g. how do you feel about the upcoming change to xx skill?) so that the PTS players can give them the feedback that they need in a more structured way... You know, help the players so that the players can help u, ZOS 😆