ZOS, you make me dread playing this game

Jeremy

Aptonoth wrote: »

This is why you never take MMO's seriously unless your ready for lots of meta changes and balance swings. Its also why I don't play pvp because lol pvp in an mmo is so pointless because its impossible to ever properly balance. I intend to only have one of each role for end game content as doing more would be a waste of time when the meta shifts too hard.

Try giving battlegrounds another go. It's a little more balanced now that it was in the past. But I agree with your general assertion that it's impossible to balance. They should focus on making PvP fun - not balanced.

People who chase the "meta" are basically functioning as game testers for the developers. They highlight builds that are too powerful and need to be addressed. That's basically all they are doing by adopting that kind of an approach. You may as well paint a Nerf Me on your back, because that's all you are doing.

My advice to people would be to stop concerning yourself so much with the "meta" and just find a build you enjoy and have fun playing as. Your experience on this game will be a lot better as a result.

Jeremy

adirondack wrote: »

Jeremy works for ZOS.

Cute. But not very accurate. ^^

Anyone familiar with my comments knows I have been very critical of ZoS in the past in ways an employee interested in keeping their job wouldn't be.

That however doesn't prevent me from defending them when I believe they are right. If I'm going to criticize them when I believe they are wrong - I feel it's the decent thing for me to do to equally defend them when I believe they are right. And attempting a pile on isn't going to silence me either. So I wouldn't even bother trying that.

I went through this same thing last update as well and let's just say I'm content I was on the right end of that one as well.

adirondack

oh its quite obvious nothing will shut you up.

So you work as a contractor then?

Sanguinor2

Jeremy wrote: »

There is something to your argument. But I look at this as just a start. Hopefully this is just the first step of a long list of steps designed to balance this game out in terms of player damage vs the content. In any case: I'm going to welcome any nerfs to player damage along the way as I see that as moving in the right direction. Because player damage is the primary offender.

If, big if, they are really doing what you hope for them to do then they Need to do it in one big patch. Just reducing reducing and reducing with reckless disregard of other aspects of the game doesnt achieve anything beyond alienating many players.

Nirntrotter

Spot on OP. Completely with you on that.

Jeremy

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

There is something to your argument. But I look at this as just a start. Hopefully this is just the first step of a long list of steps designed to balance this game out in terms of player damage vs the content. In any case: I'm going to welcome any nerfs to player damage along the way as I see that as moving in the right direction. Because player damage is the primary offender.

If, big if, they are really doing what you hope for them to do then they Need to do it in one big patch. Just reducing reducing and reducing with reckless disregard of other aspects of the game doesnt achieve anything beyond alienating many players.

Where we disagree is you believe this is "reckless". I believe this game can easily absorb significant nerfs to player damage and be just fine. In fact: I believe it would be healthy for the game generally as player DPS has just gotten way out of hand.

So I believe it's a good move regardless if it's part of a bigger picture I hope it is or not.

Jeremy

adirondack wrote: »

oh its quite obvious nothing will shut you up.

So you work as a contractor then?

Maybe you should just consider putting me on ignore. Because wanting people you disagree with to shut up really isn't what a forum is about. Though that would be good advice for someone....

Sanguinor2

Jeremy wrote: »

Where we disagree is you believe this is "reckless". I believe this game can easily absorb significant nerfs to player damage and be just fine. In fact: I believe it would be healthy for the game generally as player DPS has just gotten way out of hand.

So I believe it's a good move regardless if it's part of a bigger picture I hope it is or not.

I believe it is reckless, the vast majority of the playerbase has mediocre to *** dps, 50+% nerfs really Arent gonna help include those in Things that are not overland quests. Progression Groups and weaker Trial Groups are gonna be set back a lot and pugging vet Dungeons is gonna become even more of a Nightmare so imo those changes are in reckless disregard of many People doing vet Content (and not just Trials).

vamp_emily

ESO is like a great movie that you don't want to end. When the developers start making changes the movie turns to something like this:




Leaving the audience with their mouth wide open and wondering, "WTF are they doing?".

Not sure if that is a good thing or bad thing for ESO.

Jeremy

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Where we disagree is you believe this is "reckless". I believe this game can easily absorb significant nerfs to player damage and be just fine. In fact: I believe it would be healthy for the game generally as player DPS has just gotten way out of hand.

So I believe it's a good move regardless if it's part of a bigger picture I hope it is or not.

I believe it is reckless, the vast majority of the playerbase has mediocre to *** dps, 50+% nerfs really Arent gonna help include those in Things that are not overland quests. Progression Groups and weaker Trial Groups are gonna be set back a lot and pugging vet Dungeons is gonna become even more of a Nightmare so imo those changes are in reckless disregard of many People doing vet Content (and not just Trials).

I hear this a lot but it just hasn't been my experience. I generally have good experiences in pugs as far as DPS is concerned. Most of my groups have no problem clearing Veteran Content - especially the base dungeons - and more often than not it feels more like a face roll than anything else. So when you say the vast majority of the player base has mediocre to crap DPS - instead it seems to me like the player base has largely outgrown the content and melts it far too easily. Only a few of the DLC Vet Dungeons ever seen to pose much a challenge - and those are usually due to stupid one-shot mechanics.

So we are just coming at this from a different perspective.

You do make a good point that these changes - in and of itself - aren't going to revitalize the landscape or make it interesting again for high level players. But regardless, I still believe the damage on this game has gotten out of hand and needs to be scaled back significantly. That or the content itself needs to be buffed considerably to compensate. It seems the developers decided to opt for the former.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that baiting is a violation of the rules that we have in place. While disagreements and debates are completely acceptable, baiting is not. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a moment to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

MehrunesFlagon

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Let me start out by saying that I love ESO. I love the combat. I love the classes. I love the endless drive to tweak builds to be just a bit stronger. I love the PvP and the Alliance War.

But what I absolutely dread, and what I simply cannot continue to abide as someone with a life outside this game, is this constant axe looming over the head of every build I endeavor to make.

Don't get me wrong. I know some *** needs to be nerfed. Onslaught's buff could be cut in half. Living Dark could heal a bit less. Some of the dots could use maybe a 5% damage nerf, and you know what? Go ahead and nerf Dizzy 5%, too.

But these patch notes look like the work of someone with a serious case of Bipolar Disorder. 50-63% nerfs to a litany of skills is just an absolutely asinine way to balance the game. Entire skills are going to be rendered useless with this. Entire builds will be made utterly obsolete. And with the way damage skills are looking, I can't honestly see people fighting 1v1 at all anymore in PvP. People are going to build to be as tanky as possible and never run alone.

ZOS, I can't do this *** anymore. I play this game a lot, but I do not and cannot play enough to possibly stomach these kinds of radical changes. I can't play enough to be okay with knowing that every single aspect of my build could possibly be utterly ruined. I can't enjoy any particular playstyle because you may simply remove it from the game entirely in 3 months time. And this community can never even begin to adapt to a meta when you shift as hard away from it as possible in the blink of an eye.

There are a lot of games out there competing for my time right now, and that time gets more limited every year. I'd like to keep playing this one. But I can't keep up with this ***, and I highly doubt I'm alone on that.

The damage on this game has been out of control for a long time. I'm not sure what nerfs you are referring to specifically. But to be honest anything that reduces damage (both in PvE and PvP) I'm going to support. Everything just melts these days. It's ridiculous and holds back this game's excellent combat system.

Dude, who is getting melted that fast besides inexperienced players and gank/glass cannon builds that go out of position?

I see high-CP players of damn near every class and build type that have incredible damage mitigation while still being lethal. High-MMR Deathmatches already go to the time limit in basically every game, usually with scores still in the 200s. Can you even imagine CP PvP? 1v1 fights are literally not going to be possible to finish on an update like this.

I was referring to PvE mostly when I said everything just gets melted.

PvP has improved significantly since the last update when they attached cast times etc. Though a good premade can still melt people I promise you.

100% agreed. And premades coordinating definitely can wreck, but if this patch goes live that will be the only viable option. Individual effect on the game is going to be utterly squashed.

Why can we not get meaningful overland content that's challenging? Or new difficulties/challenges on the existing content? This is just insane. And it's going to effect new players and casual players the worst because they're likely playing solo and can't possibly dedicate the time to keep up with these meta shifts. I play quite a lot as it is and I can't justify it.

I doubt new players or casuals care much about meta shifts Sorbin.

Which nerfs have you so upset? It would probably help if I knew specifically which one you were referring to.

I mean, they've essentially just nuked damage and sustain across the board. Dizzy has more counter-play than almost any skill in the game and people have been used to that for literally 5 years now, but this will make it utterly obsolete. Dots are going right back into the dustbin of ESO history in PvP, instead of offering any sort of counter-play options (a stam Purge, a milder nerf, ANYTHING). And as of now, mitigation and heals are mostly untouched. This patch is the death of 1v1 right now.

And ironically, the most overtuned *** in this patch hasn't even been addressed. Onslaught should've been the first item on the list for an adjustment and it isn't even mentioned. The Stamplar Onslaught-Jabs-POTL combo is completely intact. I can't honestly take their vision of balance seriously.

I just don't get it. These forums were aflame over DoTs being too powerful. Now it's up in arms because they nerfed them.

1v1 was never much of thing anyway. It's nearly irrelevant outside of Duels. So PvP should not be balanced around that. At worse - you'll simply draw your friends more when you duel them. Where is the harm in that? I really can't think of any.

Mitigation and heals needed to be left untouched because defensive options are not out of control on this game. You can't stack defense with other players like you can offense. Try building a defensive character capable of living through a coordinated attack in battlegrounds then get back with me. You'll find it's not easy, and certainly no where close to approaching overpowered.

Now maybe you're right in respect to Onslaught. But I've never really understood what all the fuss was over when it came to jabs. That ability just isn't that powerful in my experience. It may be a serious threat to glass cannons is all I can guess. But Templars generally are just exaggerated way too much on this forum. That or they just shine in CP PvP or something (which I don't participate in). But in none CP PvP they just aren't all that.

It's about the amount.

Tsar_Gekkou

Zos doesn't know how to balance a game the right way. You're supposed to go with small buffs and nerfs until you hit a sweet spot, not break the legs of everything across the board and then wait a few months to see if massive buffs are needed.

Somber97866

The game needs to be interesting outside of just "hard modes".

So If certain hard modes are too difficult as a result of these changes they can simply be altered to accommodate them. That's not saying "screw you". It's trying to improve the game as a whole instead of just having tiny fragments of challenge - which is not a good design scheme.

Not trying to say screw you? Go back and play Roblox or Minecraft cause you cannot do a light attack roto or downloaded another app on your comp to do your roto for you. Tbh I've played ( collectively ) around 10000+ hrs of this game and my fav thing is storyline quest. I think I've done them all.
Now that I'm in endgame ( bc I am open minded and learned a light attack roto ) and bc the game on a open world level is easy af ( even without my cp not in use ) I'm just supposed to be pulled back and forth each patch spending hard earned resources to be able to be competitive?
Whats wrong with me? Nothing. The game is interesting outside of hardmodes for the casual players. It's just player's like me who want to be top notch that they are being attacked and bullied by ZOS to make the casual players ( like you it seems) feel more important bc your happy just completing regular maelstrom and not no deathing vet!

MojaveHeld

Jeremy. you're completely clueless. Combat is supposed to be balanced around what is required for the vet trials. You balance it around the mostly difficult things you ask your players to do, and if they want a challenge, they will go do that content. Overland content and normal dungeons being easy does not mean dps needs a nerf, and no sane or reasonable person who even remotely understands the game would ever claim otherwise. You've fully discredited yourself.

Jeremy

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Jeremy. you're completely clueless. Combat is supposed to be balanced around what is required for the vet trials. You balance it around the mostly difficult things you ask your players to do, and if they want a challenge, they will go do that content. Overland content and normal dungeons being easy does not mean dps needs a nerf, and no sane or reasonable person who even remotely understands the game would ever claim otherwise. You've fully discredited yourself.

Nah. I disagree. That's a terrible idea in my judgement.

Veteran Trials are a tiny portion of this game and not even frequented by the vast majority of players. It's very important for developers to take into account the full scope of their game and not expect players to have to go into Veteran Trials every time they want a decent challenge.

So you can think I'm "clueless" or "fully discredited" myself all you want, or what ever. All I can say in response is I pretty much feel the same about your comments.

And it's not just the Overland and Normal dungeons that are too easy due to player damage being too powerful. Many Veteran Dungeons are as well. It's a systemic problem throughout the entire game and it needed to be addressed. So I'm glad the developers are - even if it's not my preferred method I'll still take what I can get.

Lylith

Jeremy wrote: »

Aptonoth wrote: »

This is why you never take MMO's seriously unless your ready for lots of meta changes and balance swings. Its also why I don't play pvp because lol pvp in an mmo is so pointless because its impossible to ever properly balance. I intend to only have one of each role for end game content as doing more would be a waste of time when the meta shifts too hard.

Try giving battlegrounds another go. It's a little more balanced now that it was in the past. But I agree with your general assertion that it's impossible to balance. They should focus on making PvP fun - not balanced.

People who chase the "meta" are basically functioning as game testers for the developers. They highlight builds that are too powerful and need to be addressed. That's basically all they are doing by adopting that kind of an approach. You may as well paint a Nerf Me on your back, because that's all you are doing.

My advice to people would be to stop concerning yourself so much with the "meta" and just find a build you enjoy and have fun playing as. Your experience on this game will be a lot better as a result.

i did, but zo$ can't seem to stop spraying them with *** every update.

meanwhile, 'fun' isn't even remotely a factor, anymore.

Jeremy

Somber97866 wrote: »

The game needs to be interesting outside of just "hard modes".

So If certain hard modes are too difficult as a result of these changes they can simply be altered to accommodate them. That's not saying "screw you". It's trying to improve the game as a whole instead of just having tiny fragments of challenge - which is not a good design scheme.

Not trying to say screw you? Go back and play Roblox or Minecraft cause you cannot do a light attack roto or downloaded another app on your comp to do your roto for you. Tbh I've played ( collectively ) around 10000+ hrs of this game and my fav thing is storyline quest. I think I've done them all.
Now that I'm in endgame ( bc I am open minded and learned a light attack roto ) and bc the game on a open world level is easy af ( even without my cp not in use ) I'm just supposed to be pulled back and forth each patch spending hard earned resources to be able to be competitive?
Whats wrong with me? Nothing. The game is interesting outside of hardmodes for the casual players. It's just player's like me who want to be top notch that they are being attacked and bullied by ZOS to make the casual players ( like you it seems) feel more important bc your happy just completing regular maelstrom and not no deathing vet!

Ridiculous post. This has nothing to do with me wanting to feel more "important".

Now you're just resorting to lame trolling attempts and lying about what I am supposedly happy just completing. You can do better than this...

I never run regular anything because it's so easy it's boring. Know something about someone before you proceed to print false information about the person. I believe that is a reasonable request.

The_Lex

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Let me start out by saying that I love ESO. I love the combat. I love the classes. I love the endless drive to tweak builds to be just a bit stronger. I love the PvP and the Alliance War.

But what I absolutely dread, and what I simply cannot continue to abide as someone with a life outside this game, is this constant axe looming over the head of every build I endeavor to make.

Don't get me wrong. I know some *** needs to be nerfed. Onslaught's buff could be cut in half. Living Dark could heal a bit less. Some of the dots could use maybe a 5% damage nerf, and you know what? Go ahead and nerf Dizzy 5%, too.

But these patch notes look like the work of someone with a serious case of Bipolar Disorder. 50-63% nerfs to a litany of skills is just an absolutely asinine way to balance the game. Entire skills are going to be rendered useless with this. Entire builds will be made utterly obsolete. And with the way damage skills are looking, I can't honestly see people fighting 1v1 at all anymore in PvP. People are going to build to be as tanky as possible and never run alone.

ZOS, I can't do this *** anymore. I play this game a lot, but I do not and cannot play enough to possibly stomach these kinds of radical changes. I can't play enough to be okay with knowing that every single aspect of my build could possibly be utterly ruined. I can't enjoy any particular playstyle because you may simply remove it from the game entirely in 3 months time. And this community can never even begin to adapt to a meta when you shift as hard away from it as possible in the blink of an eye.

There are a lot of games out there competing for my time right now, and that time gets more limited every year. I'd like to keep playing this one. But I can't keep up with this ***, and I highly doubt I'm alone on that.

The damage on this game has been out of control for a long time. I'm not sure what nerfs you are referring to specifically. But to be honest anything that reduces damage (both in PvE and PvP) I'm going to support. Everything just melts these days. It's ridiculous and holds back this game's excellent combat system.

Dude, who is getting melted that fast besides inexperienced players and gank/glass cannon builds that go out of position?

I see high-CP players of damn near every class and build type that have incredible damage mitigation while still being lethal. High-MMR Deathmatches already go to the time limit in basically every game, usually with scores still in the 200s. Can you even imagine CP PvP? 1v1 fights are literally not going to be possible to finish on an update like this.

I was referring to PvE mostly when I said everything just gets melted.

PvP has improved significantly since the last update when they attached cast times etc. Though a good premade can still melt people I promise you.

100% agreed. And premades coordinating definitely can wreck, but if this patch goes live that will be the only viable option. Individual effect on the game is going to be utterly squashed.

Why can we not get meaningful overland content that's challenging? Or new difficulties/challenges on the existing content? This is just insane. And it's going to effect new players and casual players the worst because they're likely playing solo and can't possibly dedicate the time to keep up with these meta shifts. I play quite a lot as it is and I can't justify it.

I doubt new players or casuals care much about meta shifts Sorbin.

Which nerfs have you so upset? It would probably help if I knew specifically which one you were referring to.

I mean, they've essentially just nuked damage and sustain across the board. Dizzy has more counter-play than almost any skill in the game and people have been used to that for literally 5 years now, but this will make it utterly obsolete. Dots are going right back into the dustbin of ESO history in PvP, instead of offering any sort of counter-play options (a stam Purge, a milder nerf, ANYTHING). And as of now, mitigation and heals are mostly untouched. This patch is the death of 1v1 right now.

And ironically, the most overtuned *** in this patch hasn't even been addressed. Onslaught should've been the first item on the list for an adjustment and it isn't even mentioned. The Stamplar Onslaught-Jabs-POTL combo is completely intact. I can't honestly take their vision of balance seriously.

I just don't get it. These forums were aflame over DoTs being too powerful. Now it's up in arms because they nerfed them.

It's not so much the nerfing of DoTs. They needed nerfing. Most people are exhausted from the constant major pendulum-swinging changes from patch to patch.

Adapting is one thing. Having to take a build completely to the drawing board is quite another.

MojaveHeld

Jeremy wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Jeremy. you're completely clueless. Combat is supposed to be balanced around what is required for the vet trials. You balance it around the mostly difficult things you ask your players to do, and if they want a challenge, they will go do that content. Overland content and normal dungeons being easy does not mean dps needs a nerf, and no sane or reasonable person who even remotely understands the game would ever claim otherwise. You've fully discredited yourself.

Nah. I disagree. That's a terrible idea in my judgement.

Veteran Trials are a tiny portion of this game and not even frequented by the vast majority of players. It's very important for developers to take into account the full scope of their game and not expect players to have to go into Veteran Trials every time they want a decent challenge.

So you can think I'm "clueless" or "fully discredited" myself all you want, or what ever. All I can say in response is I pretty much feel the same about your comments.

And it's not just the Overland and Normal dungeons that are too easy due to player damage being too powerful. Many Veteran Dungeons are as well. It's a systemic problem throughout the entire game and it needed to be addressed. So I'm glad the developers are - even if it's not my preferred method I'll still take what I can get.

You can disagree all you want, but you're objectively wrong. This is a cardinal rule of MMO design. You balance around the most difficult content you ask players to do. That's a rule you don't break. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact.

MajBludd

I agree. I've lost any motivation to work on builds I've started. It's like 2 steps forward and 1 step back with zos.

Starlock

Honestly, the only thing that makes me dread playing this game is knowing there will be more and more predatory microtransactions to maintain the racket they've got going... and wondering how much more I'm going to be preyed upon by the scum sucking higher ups who run this company. Damn if this isn't a great game for storytelling and role-playing, but to oblivion with the cash shop racket they have going on that continues to get worse and worse. It needs to die in daedric fire a thousand times over.

That isn't to say I have no concern at all for combat mechanics changes. It certainly isn't my focus, but my concerns also come from a very different angle than many of those who use the forums here. I build characters with personalities and stories that are fun to play and capable of doing the types of content I like to run. There's a lot of latitude there for creative expression because I couldn't care less about the competitive-oriented minutiae.

That said, even someone like me has been pretty significantly impacted by the cumulative weight of changes as of late. My characters are noticing it, which doesn't usually happen. Not all of these changes are problematic - some of them are actually quite nice - but it is more dramatic than what I'm used to. But to say it makes me dread playing the game? Nope. Not at all. I do understand that players who do concern themselves with competitive-oriented minutiae would, though. Dear gods, I can't imagine how rough it is. I would leave or change my gameplay priorities if I was in that position.

Jeremy

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Let me start out by saying that I love ESO. I love the combat. I love the classes. I love the endless drive to tweak builds to be just a bit stronger. I love the PvP and the Alliance War.

But what I absolutely dread, and what I simply cannot continue to abide as someone with a life outside this game, is this constant axe looming over the head of every build I endeavor to make.

Don't get me wrong. I know some *** needs to be nerfed. Onslaught's buff could be cut in half. Living Dark could heal a bit less. Some of the dots could use maybe a 5% damage nerf, and you know what? Go ahead and nerf Dizzy 5%, too.

But these patch notes look like the work of someone with a serious case of Bipolar Disorder. 50-63% nerfs to a litany of skills is just an absolutely asinine way to balance the game. Entire skills are going to be rendered useless with this. Entire builds will be made utterly obsolete. And with the way damage skills are looking, I can't honestly see people fighting 1v1 at all anymore in PvP. People are going to build to be as tanky as possible and never run alone.

ZOS, I can't do this *** anymore. I play this game a lot, but I do not and cannot play enough to possibly stomach these kinds of radical changes. I can't play enough to be okay with knowing that every single aspect of my build could possibly be utterly ruined. I can't enjoy any particular playstyle because you may simply remove it from the game entirely in 3 months time. And this community can never even begin to adapt to a meta when you shift as hard away from it as possible in the blink of an eye.

There are a lot of games out there competing for my time right now, and that time gets more limited every year. I'd like to keep playing this one. But I can't keep up with this ***, and I highly doubt I'm alone on that.

The damage on this game has been out of control for a long time. I'm not sure what nerfs you are referring to specifically. But to be honest anything that reduces damage (both in PvE and PvP) I'm going to support. Everything just melts these days. It's ridiculous and holds back this game's excellent combat system.

Dude, who is getting melted that fast besides inexperienced players and gank/glass cannon builds that go out of position?

I see high-CP players of damn near every class and build type that have incredible damage mitigation while still being lethal. High-MMR Deathmatches already go to the time limit in basically every game, usually with scores still in the 200s. Can you even imagine CP PvP? 1v1 fights are literally not going to be possible to finish on an update like this.

I was referring to PvE mostly when I said everything just gets melted.

PvP has improved significantly since the last update when they attached cast times etc. Though a good premade can still melt people I promise you.

100% agreed. And premades coordinating definitely can wreck, but if this patch goes live that will be the only viable option. Individual effect on the game is going to be utterly squashed.

Why can we not get meaningful overland content that's challenging? Or new difficulties/challenges on the existing content? This is just insane. And it's going to effect new players and casual players the worst because they're likely playing solo and can't possibly dedicate the time to keep up with these meta shifts. I play quite a lot as it is and I can't justify it.

I doubt new players or casuals care much about meta shifts Sorbin.

Which nerfs have you so upset? It would probably help if I knew specifically which one you were referring to.

I mean, they've essentially just nuked damage and sustain across the board. Dizzy has more counter-play than almost any skill in the game and people have been used to that for literally 5 years now, but this will make it utterly obsolete. Dots are going right back into the dustbin of ESO history in PvP, instead of offering any sort of counter-play options (a stam Purge, a milder nerf, ANYTHING). And as of now, mitigation and heals are mostly untouched. This patch is the death of 1v1 right now.

And ironically, the most overtuned *** in this patch hasn't even been addressed. Onslaught should've been the first item on the list for an adjustment and it isn't even mentioned. The Stamplar Onslaught-Jabs-POTL combo is completely intact. I can't honestly take their vision of balance seriously.

I just don't get it. These forums were aflame over DoTs being too powerful. Now it's up in arms because they nerfed them.

1v1 was never much of thing anyway. It's nearly irrelevant outside of Duels. So PvP should not be balanced around that. At worse - you'll simply draw your friends more when you duel them. Where is the harm in that? I really can't think of any.

Mitigation and heals needed to be left untouched because defensive options are not out of control on this game. You can't stack defense with other players like you can offense. Try building a defensive character capable of living through a coordinated attack in battlegrounds then get back with me. You'll find it's not easy, and certainly no where close to approaching overpowered.

Now maybe you're right in respect to Onslaught. But I've never really understood what all the fuss was over when it came to jabs. That ability just isn't that powerful in my experience. It may be a serious threat to glass cannons is all I can guess. But Templars generally are just exaggerated way too much on this forum. That or they just shine in CP PvP or something (which I don't participate in). But in none CP PvP they just aren't all that.

It's about the amount.

It needed to be a significant amount. Small amounts would not have effectively addressed the problem.

Now as to what the exact amount that's likely going to be hashed out over a course of updates. But what I do know is the damage was too high and needed to be brought down.

Jeremy

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Let me start out by saying that I love ESO. I love the combat. I love the classes. I love the endless drive to tweak builds to be just a bit stronger. I love the PvP and the Alliance War.

But what I absolutely dread, and what I simply cannot continue to abide as someone with a life outside this game, is this constant axe looming over the head of every build I endeavor to make.

Don't get me wrong. I know some *** needs to be nerfed. Onslaught's buff could be cut in half. Living Dark could heal a bit less. Some of the dots could use maybe a 5% damage nerf, and you know what? Go ahead and nerf Dizzy 5%, too.

But these patch notes look like the work of someone with a serious case of Bipolar Disorder. 50-63% nerfs to a litany of skills is just an absolutely asinine way to balance the game. Entire skills are going to be rendered useless with this. Entire builds will be made utterly obsolete. And with the way damage skills are looking, I can't honestly see people fighting 1v1 at all anymore in PvP. People are going to build to be as tanky as possible and never run alone.

ZOS, I can't do this *** anymore. I play this game a lot, but I do not and cannot play enough to possibly stomach these kinds of radical changes. I can't play enough to be okay with knowing that every single aspect of my build could possibly be utterly ruined. I can't enjoy any particular playstyle because you may simply remove it from the game entirely in 3 months time. And this community can never even begin to adapt to a meta when you shift as hard away from it as possible in the blink of an eye.

There are a lot of games out there competing for my time right now, and that time gets more limited every year. I'd like to keep playing this one. But I can't keep up with this ***, and I highly doubt I'm alone on that.

The damage on this game has been out of control for a long time. I'm not sure what nerfs you are referring to specifically. But to be honest anything that reduces damage (both in PvE and PvP) I'm going to support. Everything just melts these days. It's ridiculous and holds back this game's excellent combat system.

Dude, who is getting melted that fast besides inexperienced players and gank/glass cannon builds that go out of position?

I see high-CP players of damn near every class and build type that have incredible damage mitigation while still being lethal. High-MMR Deathmatches already go to the time limit in basically every game, usually with scores still in the 200s. Can you even imagine CP PvP? 1v1 fights are literally not going to be possible to finish on an update like this.

I was referring to PvE mostly when I said everything just gets melted.

PvP has improved significantly since the last update when they attached cast times etc. Though a good premade can still melt people I promise you.

100% agreed. And premades coordinating definitely can wreck, but if this patch goes live that will be the only viable option. Individual effect on the game is going to be utterly squashed.

Why can we not get meaningful overland content that's challenging? Or new difficulties/challenges on the existing content? This is just insane. And it's going to effect new players and casual players the worst because they're likely playing solo and can't possibly dedicate the time to keep up with these meta shifts. I play quite a lot as it is and I can't justify it.

I doubt new players or casuals care much about meta shifts Sorbin.

Which nerfs have you so upset? It would probably help if I knew specifically which one you were referring to.

I mean, they've essentially just nuked damage and sustain across the board. Dizzy has more counter-play than almost any skill in the game and people have been used to that for literally 5 years now, but this will make it utterly obsolete. Dots are going right back into the dustbin of ESO history in PvP, instead of offering any sort of counter-play options (a stam Purge, a milder nerf, ANYTHING). And as of now, mitigation and heals are mostly untouched. This patch is the death of 1v1 right now.

And ironically, the most overtuned *** in this patch hasn't even been addressed. Onslaught should've been the first item on the list for an adjustment and it isn't even mentioned. The Stamplar Onslaught-Jabs-POTL combo is completely intact. I can't honestly take their vision of balance seriously.

I just don't get it. These forums were aflame over DoTs being too powerful. Now it's up in arms because they nerfed them.

1v1 was never much of thing anyway. It's nearly irrelevant outside of Duels. So PvP should not be balanced around that. At worse - you'll simply draw your friends more when you duel them. Where is the harm in that? I really can't think of any.

Mitigation and heals needed to be left untouched because defensive options are not out of control on this game. You can't stack defense with other players like you can offense. Try building a defensive character capable of living through a coordinated attack in battlegrounds then get back with me. You'll find it's not easy, and certainly no where close to approaching overpowered.

Now maybe you're right in respect to Onslaught. But I've never really understood what all the fuss was over when it came to jabs. That ability just isn't that powerful in my experience. It may be a serious threat to glass cannons is all I can guess. But Templars generally are just exaggerated way too much on this forum. That or they just shine in CP PvP or something (which I don't participate in). But in none CP PvP they just aren't all that.

It's about the amount.

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Jeremy. you're completely clueless. Combat is supposed to be balanced around what is required for the vet trials. You balance it around the mostly difficult things you ask your players to do, and if they want a challenge, they will go do that content. Overland content and normal dungeons being easy does not mean dps needs a nerf, and no sane or reasonable person who even remotely understands the game would ever claim otherwise. You've fully discredited yourself.

Nah. I disagree. That's a terrible idea in my judgement.

Veteran Trials are a tiny portion of this game and not even frequented by the vast majority of players. It's very important for developers to take into account the full scope of their game and not expect players to have to go into Veteran Trials every time they want a decent challenge.

So you can think I'm "clueless" or "fully discredited" myself all you want, or what ever. All I can say in response is I pretty much feel the same about your comments.

And it's not just the Overland and Normal dungeons that are too easy due to player damage being too powerful. Many Veteran Dungeons are as well. It's a systemic problem throughout the entire game and it needed to be addressed. So I'm glad the developers are - even if it's not my preferred method I'll still take what I can get.

You can disagree all you want, but you're objectively wrong. This is a cardinal rule of MMO design. You balance around the most difficult content you ask players to do. That's a rule you don't break. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact.

And you can disagree all you want, but it's you who are "objectively wrong". Anyone who designs an MMO under your supposed "Cardinal Rule" where a player has to join a Veteran Trial if they want a challenge is going to end up with a failed MMO. That's a ridiculous approach to any MMO.

MajBludd

@Jeremy they dont listen to feedback on the pts. If they did the dot inc wouldn't have gone love as well as everything else they were told was over performing on past pts cycles.

MojaveHeld

Jeremy wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Let me start out by saying that I love ESO. I love the combat. I love the classes. I love the endless drive to tweak builds to be just a bit stronger. I love the PvP and the Alliance War.

But what I absolutely dread, and what I simply cannot continue to abide as someone with a life outside this game, is this constant axe looming over the head of every build I endeavor to make.

Don't get me wrong. I know some *** needs to be nerfed. Onslaught's buff could be cut in half. Living Dark could heal a bit less. Some of the dots could use maybe a 5% damage nerf, and you know what? Go ahead and nerf Dizzy 5%, too.

But these patch notes look like the work of someone with a serious case of Bipolar Disorder. 50-63% nerfs to a litany of skills is just an absolutely asinine way to balance the game. Entire skills are going to be rendered useless with this. Entire builds will be made utterly obsolete. And with the way damage skills are looking, I can't honestly see people fighting 1v1 at all anymore in PvP. People are going to build to be as tanky as possible and never run alone.

ZOS, I can't do this *** anymore. I play this game a lot, but I do not and cannot play enough to possibly stomach these kinds of radical changes. I can't play enough to be okay with knowing that every single aspect of my build could possibly be utterly ruined. I can't enjoy any particular playstyle because you may simply remove it from the game entirely in 3 months time. And this community can never even begin to adapt to a meta when you shift as hard away from it as possible in the blink of an eye.

There are a lot of games out there competing for my time right now, and that time gets more limited every year. I'd like to keep playing this one. But I can't keep up with this ***, and I highly doubt I'm alone on that.

The damage on this game has been out of control for a long time. I'm not sure what nerfs you are referring to specifically. But to be honest anything that reduces damage (both in PvE and PvP) I'm going to support. Everything just melts these days. It's ridiculous and holds back this game's excellent combat system.

Dude, who is getting melted that fast besides inexperienced players and gank/glass cannon builds that go out of position?

I see high-CP players of damn near every class and build type that have incredible damage mitigation while still being lethal. High-MMR Deathmatches already go to the time limit in basically every game, usually with scores still in the 200s. Can you even imagine CP PvP? 1v1 fights are literally not going to be possible to finish on an update like this.

I was referring to PvE mostly when I said everything just gets melted.

PvP has improved significantly since the last update when they attached cast times etc. Though a good premade can still melt people I promise you.

100% agreed. And premades coordinating definitely can wreck, but if this patch goes live that will be the only viable option. Individual effect on the game is going to be utterly squashed.

Why can we not get meaningful overland content that's challenging? Or new difficulties/challenges on the existing content? This is just insane. And it's going to effect new players and casual players the worst because they're likely playing solo and can't possibly dedicate the time to keep up with these meta shifts. I play quite a lot as it is and I can't justify it.

I doubt new players or casuals care much about meta shifts Sorbin.

Which nerfs have you so upset? It would probably help if I knew specifically which one you were referring to.

I mean, they've essentially just nuked damage and sustain across the board. Dizzy has more counter-play than almost any skill in the game and people have been used to that for literally 5 years now, but this will make it utterly obsolete. Dots are going right back into the dustbin of ESO history in PvP, instead of offering any sort of counter-play options (a stam Purge, a milder nerf, ANYTHING). And as of now, mitigation and heals are mostly untouched. This patch is the death of 1v1 right now.

And ironically, the most overtuned *** in this patch hasn't even been addressed. Onslaught should've been the first item on the list for an adjustment and it isn't even mentioned. The Stamplar Onslaught-Jabs-POTL combo is completely intact. I can't honestly take their vision of balance seriously.

I just don't get it. These forums were aflame over DoTs being too powerful. Now it's up in arms because they nerfed them.

1v1 was never much of thing anyway. It's nearly irrelevant outside of Duels. So PvP should not be balanced around that. At worse - you'll simply draw your friends more when you duel them. Where is the harm in that? I really can't think of any.

Mitigation and heals needed to be left untouched because defensive options are not out of control on this game. You can't stack defense with other players like you can offense. Try building a defensive character capable of living through a coordinated attack in battlegrounds then get back with me. You'll find it's not easy, and certainly no where close to approaching overpowered.

Now maybe you're right in respect to Onslaught. But I've never really understood what all the fuss was over when it came to jabs. That ability just isn't that powerful in my experience. It may be a serious threat to glass cannons is all I can guess. But Templars generally are just exaggerated way too much on this forum. That or they just shine in CP PvP or something (which I don't participate in). But in none CP PvP they just aren't all that.

It's about the amount.

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Jeremy. you're completely clueless. Combat is supposed to be balanced around what is required for the vet trials. You balance it around the mostly difficult things you ask your players to do, and if they want a challenge, they will go do that content. Overland content and normal dungeons being easy does not mean dps needs a nerf, and no sane or reasonable person who even remotely understands the game would ever claim otherwise. You've fully discredited yourself.

Nah. I disagree. That's a terrible idea in my judgement.

Veteran Trials are a tiny portion of this game and not even frequented by the vast majority of players. It's very important for developers to take into account the full scope of their game and not expect players to have to go into Veteran Trials every time they want a decent challenge.

So you can think I'm "clueless" or "fully discredited" myself all you want, or what ever. All I can say in response is I pretty much feel the same about your comments.

And it's not just the Overland and Normal dungeons that are too easy due to player damage being too powerful. Many Veteran Dungeons are as well. It's a systemic problem throughout the entire game and it needed to be addressed. So I'm glad the developers are - even if it's not my preferred method I'll still take what I can get.

You can disagree all you want, but you're objectively wrong. This is a cardinal rule of MMO design. You balance around the most difficult content you ask players to do. That's a rule you don't break. This isn't up for debate, it's a fact.

And you can disagree all you want, but it's you who are "objectively wrong". Anyone who designs an MMO under your supposed "Cardinal Rule" where a player has to join a Veteran Trial if they want a challenge is going to end up with a failed MMO. That's a ridiculous approach to any MMO.

No, breaking that rule is how failed MMOs occur. You are utterly clueless and totally irredeemable. This discussion is over, the only thing you can do with people as far gone as you is ignore them.

karthrag_inak

the changes put in place often seem arbitrary, like they're looking for the target in the dark. not a fan of the most recent combat changes, not one bit, and to be honest, i'm not impressed with what i'm seeing in the pipe either.

MJallday

Sorbin wrote: »

Philtho wrote: »

I got in on the free weekend because it's fun to play single player. I ended up buying because this is a great chill single player game with some multiplayer on top. The last thing I was expecting is huge nerfs left and right this far into the games lifecycle. That kind of stress is why I play games to get away from.

It looks like many of these are because of PvP which EQ and WoW learned long ago, never balance for PvP.

DoTs are meant to be low cost high damage with the downside of taking forever to do the damage. It's looking like instant casts are as good as DoTs, so why have DoTs to begin with?

Pretty much watch any of the streamers and they're all saying how terrible this is on the PTR. Total meltdowns, these dudes can't even breathe they're so stressed.

Thank you for this perspective. This is the kind of thing that needs to be heard. No one likes to see their build potentially getting utterly nuked to Oblivion no matter what type of content you enjoy. And the smartest solution for ZOS would have been to balance PvP and PvE separately YEARS ago. But, in lieu of that, if these two elements of the game are going to be balanced simultaneously, why such drastic changes? Why not subtly tweak things and introduce counter-play? If PvE difficulty is the problem, why not add a new difficulty level to high-end content, or just outright buff some of the mobs? Especially when you have a sizable portion of players asking every week for more challenging content!

ZOS, do you realize that a player on console has not even been playing this patch for a month? The overwhelming majority of console players have probably NOT downloaded the PTS on a PC and been playing builds there, so they've had roughly 3 weeks of real time to actual be hands-on with the current meta. And now builds are being destroyed.

As a balance measure, it seems like it was honestly created in the midst of a manic episode. And if this is the way you want to hook players into the endless grind, I can't imagine people are going to want to tolerate having playstyles they enjoy made obsolete for very much longer.

The Xbox discord’s are awash with players who’ve gone from 100k dps parses in the pts to 70k

30% dps loss just like that. Equate that to the entire player base (the ones that don’t hit anywhere near 100k now) and you’ll face teams struggling to being able to complete original content let alone newer

This is shoddy work zos, even by your own low standards

Jeremy

The_Lex wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Sorbin wrote: »

Let me start out by saying that I love ESO. I love the combat. I love the classes. I love the endless drive to tweak builds to be just a bit stronger. I love the PvP and the Alliance War.

But what I absolutely dread, and what I simply cannot continue to abide as someone with a life outside this game, is this constant axe looming over the head of every build I endeavor to make.

Don't get me wrong. I know some *** needs to be nerfed. Onslaught's buff could be cut in half. Living Dark could heal a bit less. Some of the dots could use maybe a 5% damage nerf, and you know what? Go ahead and nerf Dizzy 5%, too.

But these patch notes look like the work of someone with a serious case of Bipolar Disorder. 50-63% nerfs to a litany of skills is just an absolutely asinine way to balance the game. Entire skills are going to be rendered useless with this. Entire builds will be made utterly obsolete. And with the way damage skills are looking, I can't honestly see people fighting 1v1 at all anymore in PvP. People are going to build to be as tanky as possible and never run alone.

ZOS, I can't do this *** anymore. I play this game a lot, but I do not and cannot play enough to possibly stomach these kinds of radical changes. I can't play enough to be okay with knowing that every single aspect of my build could possibly be utterly ruined. I can't enjoy any particular playstyle because you may simply remove it from the game entirely in 3 months time. And this community can never even begin to adapt to a meta when you shift as hard away from it as possible in the blink of an eye.

There are a lot of games out there competing for my time right now, and that time gets more limited every year. I'd like to keep playing this one. But I can't keep up with this ***, and I highly doubt I'm alone on that.

The damage on this game has been out of control for a long time. I'm not sure what nerfs you are referring to specifically. But to be honest anything that reduces damage (both in PvE and PvP) I'm going to support. Everything just melts these days. It's ridiculous and holds back this game's excellent combat system.

Dude, who is getting melted that fast besides inexperienced players and gank/glass cannon builds that go out of position?

I see high-CP players of damn near every class and build type that have incredible damage mitigation while still being lethal. High-MMR Deathmatches already go to the time limit in basically every game, usually with scores still in the 200s. Can you even imagine CP PvP? 1v1 fights are literally not going to be possible to finish on an update like this.

I was referring to PvE mostly when I said everything just gets melted.

PvP has improved significantly since the last update when they attached cast times etc. Though a good premade can still melt people I promise you.

100% agreed. And premades coordinating definitely can wreck, but if this patch goes live that will be the only viable option. Individual effect on the game is going to be utterly squashed.

Why can we not get meaningful overland content that's challenging? Or new difficulties/challenges on the existing content? This is just insane. And it's going to effect new players and casual players the worst because they're likely playing solo and can't possibly dedicate the time to keep up with these meta shifts. I play quite a lot as it is and I can't justify it.

I doubt new players or casuals care much about meta shifts Sorbin.

Which nerfs have you so upset? It would probably help if I knew specifically which one you were referring to.

I mean, they've essentially just nuked damage and sustain across the board. Dizzy has more counter-play than almost any skill in the game and people have been used to that for literally 5 years now, but this will make it utterly obsolete. Dots are going right back into the dustbin of ESO history in PvP, instead of offering any sort of counter-play options (a stam Purge, a milder nerf, ANYTHING). And as of now, mitigation and heals are mostly untouched. This patch is the death of 1v1 right now.

And ironically, the most overtuned *** in this patch hasn't even been addressed. Onslaught should've been the first item on the list for an adjustment and it isn't even mentioned. The Stamplar Onslaught-Jabs-POTL combo is completely intact. I can't honestly take their vision of balance seriously.

I just don't get it. These forums were aflame over DoTs being too powerful. Now it's up in arms because they nerfed them.

It's not so much the nerfing of DoTs. They needed nerfing. Most people are exhausted from the constant major pendulum-swinging changes from patch to patch.

Adapting is one thing. Having to take a build completely to the drawing board is quite another.

I can understand that. But I believe it's better to deal with some hardship and get a better game because of it than simply settle for mediocrity - which is what this game was rapidly progressing towards. Because the truth is players have just simply outgrown too much of this game's content and something dramatic had to be done to salvage it. It was starting to border on the edge of boredom. It's sad how easily Veteran Players can melt so much of the content. And expecting players to run to a Veteran Trial every time they want a challenge (I'm not saying you were suggesting that) is not a realistic solution.

KingZeldaMaster

Jeremy wrote: »

It needed to be a significant amount. Small amounts would not have effectively addressed the problem.

Now as to what the exact amount that's likely going to be hashed out over a course of updates. But what I do know is the damage was too high and needed to be brought down.

The damage nerfs ZOS wants to implement are far too excessive for certain content in the game. Veteran Sunspire can only be completed with damage numbers that very little of the player base can even hope to reach, and achieving something like Godslayer is going to be impossible with the blanket nerfs that they are proposing. They can't introduce content that requires current damage numbers, nerf damage substantially, and then still expect players to complete the same content that was already hard even with what you are calling "excessive" damage.

Certain veteran content certainly lacks challenge, namely the base-game dungeons where mechanics can be skipped and/or the mechanics aren't even difficult in the first place. DLC dungeons on veteran are easy once everyone knows mechanics. Damage merely serves to speed up the process of completing the dungeon. A blanket nerf to damage increases difficulty by way of introducing tedium, which is a terrible method of adding difficulty as it merely makes things take longer.

Lastly, DLC veteran speedrun achievements (for both dungeons and trials) can be difficult enough with current damage numbers, so I fail to see how they would even be feasible except for the top 0.001% of the player base who actually deal insane damage (>90-100k raid parses) currently.

When content is released based around damage as it stands due to "power creep" as a lot of people like to say, the right step is not to substantially nerf damage and still expect players to complete the same content as before. If this is implemented, ZOS would need to completely rework all PvE content that requires current damage numbers (i.e. veteran Sunspire (especially the Godslayer of Sunspire achievement), veteran Blackrose Prison). For anyone who actually tries to progress veteran trials and the most difficult veteran dungeons, this blanket nerf (both damage and skill cost increase in the case of AoEs) is a MAJOR step in the wrong direction.