PTS Update 24 - Feedback Thread for Wardens

MinarasLaure

It sounds and looks like a nerf, but it's also a buff to damage dealt.
I doubt any single warden out there used this ult to deal damage, we all slotted it for the passive.
It just has a different purpose now.

Also, warden community should be happy given the fact Zos will reduce the range of dive.

All in all, is still good news.

FrancisCrawford

MinarasLaure wrote: »

It sounds and looks like a nerf, but it's also a buff to damage dealt.
I doubt any single warden out there used this ult to deal damage, we all slotted it for the passive.
It just has a different purpose now.

Also, warden community should be happy given the fact Zos will reduce the range of dive.

All in all, is still good news.

I've been using Northern Storm for damage, since it's slotted anyway, and because I like the defensive utility. But I don't play warden that much in the first place, and when I do I'm often healing.

Lughlongarm

Sleet Storm changes:

Not sure that the current adjustments really tackle the pain points of the skill.

Permafrost - The only reason Permafrost was even on the nerf radar was due to its group utility it gives(mainly the the 12 sec major protraction). I think this skill should get back the dmg but the radius of the skill should be reduced to like 7-6 meters(from 10), to limit the effectiveness of group game-play.

Northern Storm - They want this ulti to be more active and busty, Ok. So why reduce the dmg by almost 4%(from the skill ranking)? They give the 4% dmg back, and also the activation should increase both Stamina and Magicka like most than open options from both magicka and stamina.

If you want the smaller radius more defensive skill you go prema, if want the big brusty AOE you go with steel.
I think this buff will also conciliate players that look at this change as a nerf.

ESO_Nightingale

Changes to sleet storm and it's morphs are great

There's less passive slot *** on Magden now which is great. There is too much of it. now if we were to have AB4.0 we could have fun skill synergy and a unique burst aoe identity with a stun built into the combo. Means we could finally make the Falcon's Swiftness line of skills actually focus on movement/utility instead of patching what's fundamentally wrong with the class (lack of synergy) with raw damage.

And perma is finally recognised as a utility ultimate, not a damage ultimate which is great. If people are complaining about it's damage on stamden, use it as a utility ultimate. Not as a damage one. It'll still be fantastic.

maddiniiLuna

Permafrost WAS a utility ultimate when it had the group stun. Without this group stun it's more of a offensive ability, since the tiny protection doesn't really do much in 12 seconds. So after taking the most important utility away from it, you also make it weaker.

I mean okay it gives you the damage reduction. That's about it. In PvE you won't need the buff at all and in PvP it's too expensive to use, just for 12 seconds protection, when i can use the heal ultimate for much lower cost.

The other morph was an option, because the extra magicka allowed you to put more shields up or whatever you gotta do with more magicka. But this is now only granted on activation?

So instead of giving me some class identity you have taken it away. There is no offensive Ultimate in the Warden class now, that is viable and i'll end up slotting Fighters Guild. Who makes these stupid decisions?

BrokenGameMechanics

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Changes to sleet storm and it's morphs are great

There's less passive slot *** on Magden now which is great. There is too much of it. now if we were to have AB4.0 we could have fun skill synergy and a unique burst aoe identity with a stun built into the combo. Means we could finally make the Falcon's Swiftness line of skills actually focus on movement/utility instead of patching what's fundamentally wrong with the class (lack of synergy) with raw damage.

And perma is finally recognised as a utility ultimate, not a damage ultimate which is great. If people are complaining about it's damage on stamden, use it as a utility ultimate. Not as a damage one. It'll still be fantastic.

Difficult to see how anyone can use the word great. They removed an 8% Max Magica all time on a Bar for something that only lasts 30 secs. Why is that great? Why is not having 8% "all the time" not better in your eyes?

Perma lost its stun. Perma lost its damage. For what, a snare that is easily ignored by any number of skills. It is still horribly expensive for something that now does effectively nothing in comparison. Total nerf period.

I'm all ears if someone wants to do a comparison in detail. The only thing Great about it is that it is a Great Big Nerf for both Ultis. HUGE.

Arjuna1696

I think it's absolutely appropriate to require casting the ult in order to gain a buff in max magicka - and don't forget that the magicka increase is much higher than it was, up to 15%, right? And 30 seconds is quite a long time for that buff. Ult is short for ULTIMATE - a skill that should not only be powerful but that should be USED. I never really used the skill on my mag warden, just slotted it for the 8% - what a lame situation! Furthermore - 30% less damage + respectable AOE damage + big damage buff...This is a really solid change, and a very usable ult.

BrokenGameMechanics

MinarasLaure wrote: »

It sounds and looks like a nerf, but it's also a buff to damage dealt.
I doubt any single warden out there used this ult to deal damage, we all slotted it for the passive.
It just has a different purpose now.

Also, warden community should be happy given the fact Zos will reduce the range of dive.

All in all, is still good news.

The Ulti now does little to no additional damage then what it did before. It does mean that on your "damage" bar you just got an across the board of around 4000 Magica from a sustain perspective and a loss around 400 Spell Damages. It is a pretty solid Damage Nerf period. No other way to look at it.

Going to need some sort of explanation here because reducing the range of any skill is a Nerf. If you are a Magden you need to attack at range. Forcing a Magden to have to get up close and personal to a Templar or DK with all these Damage nerfs is just horrible.

Could you offer up some details on what I'm missing? How is reducing the range of Birds plus a pretty hefting across the board hit to damage for a Magden "Good News".

BrokenGameMechanics

xWarbrain wrote: »

You get the increased resource pool for 30 seconds after (and during) the use of Northern Storm.

Interesting the you won't get the damage boost on your Northern Storm itself. Basically the big nerf is the took 8% Max Magica boost away for one that lasts only 30 secs. Big Nerf for Magdens again from both a Heal and DPS perspective.

Stamdens got something this release.

For Magdens the +3 Years Of All Nerfs without a Single Buff remains unbroken.

BrokenGameMechanics

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

I think it's absolutely appropriate to require casting the ult in order to gain a buff in max magicka - and don't forget that the magicka increase is much higher than it was, up to 15%, right? And 30 seconds is quite a long time for that buff. Ult is short for ULTIMATE - a skill that should not only be powerful but that should be USED. I never really used the skill on my mag warden, just slotted it for the 8% - what a lame situation! Furthermore - 30% less damage + respectable AOE damage + big damage buff...This is a really solid change, and a very usable ult.

While I agree it sound more appropriate it doesn't change the fact is huge nerf for the Magden.

From a DPS perspective over two or releases releases for Magdens: Birds got Nerfed, Winter got Nerfed, Bear was Nerfed, Fletcher was Nerfed (lost an entire Morph as well), Shalks got Nerfed (blockable), Perma got Nerfed, ...

Remember this for what is hands down the bottom barrel DPS class to begin with.

Now take that these Skills were heavy nerfed and THEN compound that with the additional loss of 8% Magica boost to sustain and damage the class from a Heals and DPS perspective. That 8% is easily 3-4000 loss of Magicka sustain and 400 Spell Damage to "everything" in addition to the per skill nerfs.

I'm still basically shocked that ZOS took this releases "look at the Warden" and somehow concluded that Stamden needed some buffs and boosts here and there while also concluding that Magdens needed series of yet more across the board heavy Nerfing without a single buff is a bit surprising.

Magden's have NEVER received a single Buff in 3 years AFAIK/recall. But they have received a steady wave of heavy nerfs every release over this period. What is surprising is that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would state that are OP. In fact, I think pretty much everyone, no matter what they main would probably say that Magdens have been under performing literally since inception.

BrokenGameMechanics

xWarbrain wrote: »

You get the increased resource pool for 30 seconds after (and during) the use of Northern Storm.

While the pool increases to higher Max Magica you won't actually see any additional Magica itself. Tooltips will jump for 30 secs (instead of being bumped "permanently") but it would take 4-6 secs for the pool to charge assuming even a pretty decent mag regen rate.

If you are htting your Ulti you are in combat so your Mag in the Pool is only going down. It is doubtful you'll ever really see where Mag is actually filling up in the "extended" Pool size itself. It is a Tooltip boost for 30 secs.

rothtwinsdad

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

You get the increased resource pool for 30 seconds after (and during) the use of Northern Storm.

While the pool increases to higher Max Magica you won't actually see any additional Magica itself. Tooltips will jump for 30 secs (instead of being bumped "permanently") but it would take 4-6 secs for the pool to charge assuming even a pretty decent mag regen rate.

If you are htting your Ulti you are in combat so your Mag in the Pool is only going down. It is doubtful you'll ever really see where Mag is actually filling up in the "extended" Pool size itself. It is a Tooltip boost for 30 secs.

This ^

fierackas

I have no idea where the Warden identity is after this pass and recent changes - if anything it has even less identity and is forced into non-warden ultimates.

FrostFallFox

I’d rather keep the passive extra mag 😭.

Mostly for pve and pvp healing.

MentalxHammer

Remove the bleed from this skill and restore the 10% damage, the stacked bleed is only a viable proc in pve, the burst is what made this skill effective.

Canned_Apples

Speed up the animation for Dive. It's not a viable spammable with a 2 second delay.

jypcy

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Remove the bleed from this skill and restore the 10% damage, the stacked bleed is only a viable proc in pve, the burst is what made this skill effective.

Yeah probably worth mentioning that power slam has the same tooltip as cutting dive on live in addition to having a secondary effect (in this case, stacking even more damage on that tooltip). Idk how much range plays into the skill’s power budget, but it’s not unprecedented to have a spammable with that much raw damage plus a secondary effect, especially when you’re making the secondary effect conditional (range for dive, blocking for PS).

LeHarrt91

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

You get the increased resource pool for 30 seconds after (and during) the use of Northern Storm.

While the pool increases to higher Max Magica you won't actually see any additional Magica itself. Tooltips will jump for 30 secs (instead of being bumped "permanently") but it would take 4-6 secs for the pool to charge assuming even a pretty decent mag regen rate.

If you are htting your Ulti you are in combat so your Mag in the Pool is only going down. It is doubtful you'll ever really see where Mag is actually filling up in the "extended" Pool size itself. It is a Tooltip boost for 30 secs.

You know that you get the damage boost from the Max Magicka even if your resource pool is less than 100%, the same thing currently happens when you barswap between Northern and another Ulti, you "lose" magicka when you swap to bar with Northern, and if you have to barswap a lot you wont gain any of that magicka back. But your tooltips will be buffed instantly as your magicka was increased.

But with the PTS version, you will have the 15% for 30s even if you barswap. Just image, PTS Northern, Necropotence, Bright Throats, Mage Mundus and Bloody Mara Drink.

LeHarrt91

and for those Wardens saying that the loss of 8% magicka will hurt my Healer, good, healing is very strong and was not nerfed unlike DPS.

YandereGirlfriend

fierackas wrote: »

I have no idea where the Warden identity is after this pass and recent changes - if anything it has even less identity and is forced into non-warden ultimates.

Hear, hear!

I was literally in the process of rolling and leveling up a Frost Warden for PvE DPS and these changes absolutely obliterate my desire to continue with the class.

Nobody ever sees MagWardens in trials anyway (hence my desire to make one) and this random and brutal suplexing of the class will ensure that that trend continues.

Who is the Class Rep for Wardens and what on earth are they telling the development team???

LeHarrt91

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

fierackas wrote: »

I have no idea where the Warden identity is after this pass and recent changes - if anything it has even less identity and is forced into non-warden ultimates.

Here, here!

I was literally in the process of rolling and leveling up a Frost Warden for PvE DPS and these changes absolutely obliterate my desire to continue with the class.

Nobody ever sees MagWardens in trials anyway (hence my desire to make one) and this random and brutal suplexing of the class will ensure that that trend continues.

Who is the Class Rep for Wardens and what on earth are they telling the development team???

Magicka Wardens are seen in Trials they use the Bear, and are not Frost Wardens because frost isnt a DPS element (at the moment) Zos have turned it into a Tank element.

But, if you have Northern of your backbar, and Ice Comet on your frost bar, when you activate Northern you will have 17% when on your frontbar for 30s, and you will be gaining ultimate back during that 30s.

MentalxHammer

I feel strongly that the janky bleed mechanic on cutting dive should be reworked, no one in pvp is going to hit their target with this skill 7 times to receive value from the bonus. The wardens bread and butter is strong burst mechanics like the former dizzy swing (rip). The off balance mechanic is a strong enough secondary effect in my opinion, keep the off balance on the magicka version but retain its minimum 12 meter range requirement to proc in addition to the other effects on the magicka morph. The stamina morph cutting dive should lose the bleed but proc off balance at any distance.

There are a couple things holding this skill back from being viable, the most important thing is the time to travel on the projectile, this needs to be increased by about double. The second thing that concerns me is that we are losing 10% damage but gaining a slow paced bleed mechanic, as I mentioned before we really need that 10% damage to support wardens primary playstyle, burst dps.

LeHarrt91

MentalxHammer wrote: »

I feel strongly that the janky bleed mechanic on cutting dive should be reworked, no one in pvp is going to hit their target with this skill 7 times to receive value from the bonus. The wardens bread and butter is strong burst mechanics like the former dizzy swing (rip). The off balance mechanic is a strong enough secondary effect in my opinion, keep the off balance on the magicka version but retain its minimum 12 meter range requirement to proc in addition to the other effects on the magicka morph. The stamina morph cutting dive should lose the bleed but proc off balance at any distance.

There are a couple things holding this skill back from being viable, the most important thing is the time to travel on the projectile, this needs to be increased by about double. The second thing that concerns me is that we are losing 10% damage but gaining a slow paced bleed mechanic, as I mentioned before we really need that 10% damage to support wardens primary playstyle, burst dps.

I think there should be a minimum range to proc off balance, 2H StamDen doesnt need any more power. I agree about the speed and that the Bleed stacking 7 times is silly as no one is going to spam the bird 7x consecutively after proccing off balance. for Cutting Dive the damage nerf is made up by the CP passive that grants 10% more damage to off balance enemies. SCR on the other hand doesnt put enough points into that CP tree and was nerfed by 10%

Adenoma

Anyone able to post some screenshots of tool tips on cutting dive?

MinarasLaure

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

MinarasLaure wrote: »

It sounds and looks like a nerf, but it's also a buff to damage dealt.
I doubt any single warden out there used this ult to deal damage, we all slotted it for the passive.
It just has a different purpose now.

Also, warden community should be happy given the fact Zos will reduce the range of dive.

All in all, is still good news.

The Ulti now does little to no additional damage then what it did before. It does mean that on your "damage" bar you just got an across the board of around 4000 Magica from a sustain perspective and a loss around 400 Spell Damages. It is a pretty solid Damage Nerf period. No other way to look at it.

Going to need some sort of explanation here because reducing the range of any skill is a Nerf. If you are a Magden you need to attack at range. Forcing a Magden to have to get up close and personal to a Templar or DK with all these Damage nerfs is just horrible.

Could you offer up some details on what I'm missing? How is reducing the range of Birds plus a pretty hefting across the board hit to damage for a Magden "Good News".

You do get back those 400 spell dmg when you activate the ult.
And you get the boost in both bars, without the need to slot it twice
That's why to me its not a pure nerf.

As for Dive, under a pvp perspective, its definitely not a nerf.
And its not even that bad in pve, its still a ranged ability, if you want the off balance effect, you just have to get closer

Lughlongarm

Warden got some very strong buffs.


1)Cutting dive off-balance very easy to proc now. Also, the bleed damage is insane, its about the same(a bit bigger) as the skill main tool tip damage.

You don't suppose to stack it 7 times(it was never supposed to be done by one warden). Stacking it 3 times will result in bleed damage that is higher by around 33% compared to the dot of poison injection with its full execute potential. It is also much more bursty dot compared to poison injection(7 sec duration over 10 sec). So 3 stacks of birds will be around 40k+ bleed with CP gear and buffs. If you will focus on bleeds and use the bleed set(Blooddrinker) the damage will be insane(Growing Swarm will benefit as well). Warden bleed build is a thing now.

2)Winter's Revenge Damage also amazing, almost twice the damage of Wall of Elements.

MLGProPlayer

Lughlongarm wrote: »

1)Cutting dive off-balance very easy to proc now. Also, the bleed damage is insane, its about the same(a bit bigger) as the skill main tool tip damage.

It's still quite hard to proc. 7m is right at the edge of close range (8m). Unstable Wall is 8m, Zaan is 8m, Deep Fissure is 7m. You typically stand a bit closer to your target to ensure you don't whiff on abilities, which means you won't be proccing OB a lot of the time.

7m is obviously better than 12m, but it's still not a reliable proc condition.

Jaxaxo

What about reverting Scalebreaker changes to Nature's grasp and actually making it worth slotting again in pvp? Current version is just unreliable, both as heal and mobility tool.

And can confirm low proc chance of chilled on arctic blast. Was testing with charged destro staff and proc chance seems terribly low. Due to nature of skill would be also awesome to increase range by 1-2m. Or duration. Or both

ESO_Nightingale

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

1)Cutting dive off-balance very easy to proc now. Also, the bleed damage is insane, its about the same(a bit bigger) as the skill main tool tip damage.

It's still quite hard to proc. 7m is right at the edge of close range (8m). Unstable Wall is 8m, Zaan is 8m, Deep Fissure is 7m. You typically stand a bit closer to your target to ensure you don't whiff on abilities, which means you won't be proccing OB a lot of the time still.

7m is obviously better than 12m, but it's still not a reliable proc.

agreed 100%. @_Ahala_ tested it in duels and it just sucked. It's too mentally straining to keep track of it especially when also using arctic blast. It feels punishing to use at melee range which just shouldn't be in the game.

Lughlongarm

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

1)Cutting dive off-balance very easy to proc now. Also, the bleed damage is insane, its about the same(a bit bigger) as the skill main tool tip damage.

It's still quite hard to proc. 7m is right at the edge of close range (8m). Unstable Wall is 8m, Zaan is 8m, Deep Fissure is 7m. You typically stand a bit closer to your target to ensure you don't whiff on abilities, which means you won't be proccing OB a lot of the time.

7m is obviously better than 12m, but it's still not a reliable proc condition.

Not sure I understand the numbers you are mentioning. Is it max range?
Deep Fissure is 20m
Unstable Wall is 18m

7m is the max range of Dizzying Swing and Onslaught.