Jesus, greedy company ! Stop making this game Pay to 2 win.

Starlock

ArenGesus wrote: »

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

No, we should be getting angry at the company that thinks adding these types of microtransactions is acceptable. Remember when game companies used to just... you know... make games? When microtransactions that exploit consumer's wallets weren't a thing? I do. And I fully and entirely put the blame on the companies who add this kind of bull crap to their games.

vivisectvib16_ESO

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

You would already have that "edge" on your main character, regardless. An new alt isn't the same thing as a new player on a new account. It is closer to being the same thing as respeccing your existing character and is NOT pay to win. I'm the first to call out BS practices like P2W and ya'll are just flat out wrong and are really grasping with this nonsense.

Kiralyn2000

I can only assume that a lot of people playing ESO have never had the misfortune of playing an actual p2w game.

(maybe it's a generational thing? Blatantly p2w f2p Eastern MMOs were a lot bigger part of the gaming landscape ~10 years ago. Perfect World, Forsaken World, etc... Before Perfect World Inc started buying up all sorts of 'real' properties and publishing things like Remnant.)

Starlock

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

You would already have that "edge" on your main character, regardless. An new alt isn't the same thing as a new player on a new account. It is closer to being the same thing as respeccing your existing character and is NOT pay to win. I'm the first to call out BS practices like P2W and ya'll are just flat out wrong and are really grasping with this nonsense.

Something for consideration.

Do you remember games that, when you created another character, there were simply no options to cheat your way to completion? Or if there was, these were cheat codes built into the game that you didn't have to PAY MONEY for? I do.

Thinking about things in this context, do you think it is an acceptable practice for companies to heavily monetize something that has been an essentially free feature in games of the past? What do you suppose the reasoning is behind Zenimax not allowing players to accelerate their new characters without paying money for it?

Because let me tell you, that was a deliberate design choice to exploit player's wallets. If you go back and look at some of the discussions where players requested accelerating their character development, they wanted this to be a standard, in game feature that did not exploit their wallets. But of course that isn't what we got because the CEOs had to add one more predatory microtransaction to this game. We aren't even given the option to use in-game gold we've amassed on our first character to accelerate the skill lines on our new characters. No, it's pay cash or shut up. I don't find that okay. Do you?

ArenGesus

Starlock wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

No, we should be getting angry at the company that thinks adding these types of microtransactions is acceptable. Remember when game companies used to just... you know... make games? When microtransactions that exploit consumer's wallets weren't a thing? I do. And I fully and entirely put the blame on the companies who add this kind of bull crap to their games.

But I'm not angry at them for doing it. Game companies never just "made games". They made money selling games. And those games came on media that was installed locally and that was that. Now they have servers and bandwidth, which are recurring costs and which require recurring income. I only begrudge them this because I don't feel like they should be charging for QoL improvements (ie, convenience) that should just be part of the game, especially if I subscribe and therefore already contribute to the recurring income they require.

But if it were free, you wouldn't be complaining, even though the same advantage would be available to everybody who wants to take an alt into <50 battlegrounds and crush actual noobs leveling their first toon. The bottom line is that many players don't want to have to search out lore books for the 8th time and are not at all concerned about an advantage, just about saving time. To me it doesn't matter at all - I'm not paying for it, but I also am not getting wiped by <50 pre-mades who all purchased the skill lines because my alts all get leveled and into >50 pvp where they belong. It's a non-issue.

ArenGesus

Starlock wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

You would already have that "edge" on your main character, regardless. An new alt isn't the same thing as a new player on a new account. It is closer to being the same thing as respeccing your existing character and is NOT pay to win. I'm the first to call out BS practices like P2W and ya'll are just flat out wrong and are really grasping with this nonsense.

Something for consideration.

Do you remember games that, when you created another character, there were simply no options to cheat your way to completion? Or if there was, these were cheat codes built into the game that you didn't have to PAY MONEY for? I do.

Thinking about things in this context, do you think it is an acceptable practice for companies to heavily monetize something that has been an essentially free feature in games of the past? What do you suppose the reasoning is behind Zenimax not allowing players to accelerate their new characters without paying money for it?

Because let me tell you, that was a deliberate design choice to exploit player's wallets. If you go back and look at some of the discussions where players requested accelerating their character development, they wanted this to be a standard, in game feature that did not exploit their wallets. But of course that isn't what we got because the CEOs had to add one more predatory microtransaction to this game. We aren't even given the option to use in-game gold we've amassed on our first character to accelerate the skill lines on our new characters. No, it's pay cash or shut up. I don't find that okay. Do you?

OK, this is a different argument and I agree with this one. Now you're saying these are things that should be available, but not at a price. Amen to that. I just don't think it's a p2w issue.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

We are not pay to win yet but ZoS will continue this pay for convenience to make it worse they are likely to increase the grind so you are more likely to just do it once and buy the skill line for your alts.

OP stated that the game has too many players to be struggling financially. I would question this with the amount of time Elsweyr his been put on sell and the every increasing number of moves to push players into the crown store can’t be good.

Add the fact that ESO is not very popular on any system where we can see the numbers. Steam and Twitch. ESO is clearly not dead we really can’t say it’s not dying we are not able to see the numbers but other games are very much definitely not dying.

Katahdin

I have no problem with this whatsoever.
I can totally understand why someone would not want to grind these skill lines over and over again when they already did it 1, 2, 3 times.

I have 18 characters.

I could buy every skill line for them if I wanted but would rather not spend that kind of money on that (they are expensive). I've purchased the Cyrodiil shards for the other alliances for my 3 new characters because I dont want to go through that torture after I've done it 15 times.

I work full time, have a family, other hobbies and responsibilities so I have not had time to complete all those skill lines on all my characters.

Complaining that someone can buy them is like me complaining that someone that can play all day every day and level those skill lines in game is play to win and we should limit everyone's play time each day to 4 hours so they don't have an advantage.

Ozby

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Let's create more p2w threads and debate over the definition of p2w for 3 months again.

Me : Nope you are all insane people 😩

agreed

Rave the Histborn

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.

It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

Even if it is temporary IT IS STILL PAY TO WIN and it doesn't just affect under 50 pvp. "yeah, but who cares?" People that don't need to buy these and have ground out their toon and would like people to not have to carry the whales that pay. Play the game well sometime and you'll know that feeling.

ArenGesus

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.

It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

Even if it is temporary IT IS STILL PAY TO WIN and it doesn't just affect under 50 pvp. "yeah, but who cares?" People that don't need to buy these and have ground out their toon and would like people to not have to carry the whales that pay. Play the game well sometime and you'll know that feeling.

No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning. Now you're saying the exact opposite of pay to win - you're saying you have to carry people who bought the skills and don't know how to play because they purchased everything.

First, this is nonsense. You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt. Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free.

Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude.

Rave the Histborn

Katahdin wrote: »

I have no problem with this whatsoever.
I can totally understand why someone would not want to grind these skill lines over and over again when they already did it 1, 2, 3 times.

I have 18 characters.

I could buy every skill line for them if I wanted but would rather not spend that kind of money on that. I've purchased the Cyrodiil shards for the other alliances for my 3 new characters because I dont want to go through that torture after I've done it 15 times.

I work full time, have a family, other hobbies and responsibilities so I have not had time to complete all those skill lines on all my characters.

Complaining that someone can buy them is like me complaining that someone that can play all day every day and level those skill lines in game is play to win and we should limit everyone's play time each day to 4 hours so they don't have an advantage.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.

It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

Even if it is temporary IT IS STILL PAY TO WIN and it doesn't just affect under 50 pvp. "yeah, but who cares?" People that don't need to buy these and have ground out their toon and would like people to not have to carry the whales that pay. Play the game well sometime and you'll know that feeling.

No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning. Now you're saying the exact opposite of pay to win - you're saying you have to carry people who bought the skills and don't know how to play because they purchased everything.

First, this is nonsense. You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt. Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free.

Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude.

"Git gud at discussion dude"

"No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning"

Your own words, it's pay to win but it doesn't affect you because you only think it affects low level pvp. So you're wrong, might wanna Git dud at remembering your own points for more than 5min. It's like debating a goldfish.

"You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt"

On an alt that didn't earn those skills. Pay to win is paying for an in game advantage. "Git gud at discussion dude"

"Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free."

So you want bad players to have the ability to buy things and stay bad because some people are bad in the game. "Git gud at discussion dude"

"Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude."

Tries to take the moral high ground. Proceeds to do what you chastise people about insulting people then ends last line with an insult. So by your own words we shouldn't listen to what you have to say because you attempted to make an insult so that means your argument is bad? Go think about that and have a good day friend!

NeillMcAttack

If the game just released, and these skill lines and skill points could be bought straight off the bat, would we then consider the game to have many pay to win systems?

ArenGesus

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I have no problem with this whatsoever.
I can totally understand why someone would not want to grind these skill lines over and over again when they already did it 1, 2, 3 times.

I have 18 characters.

I could buy every skill line for them if I wanted but would rather not spend that kind of money on that. I've purchased the Cyrodiil shards for the other alliances for my 3 new characters because I dont want to go through that torture after I've done it 15 times.

I work full time, have a family, other hobbies and responsibilities so I have not had time to complete all those skill lines on all my characters.

Complaining that someone can buy them is like me complaining that someone that can play all day every day and level those skill lines in game is play to win and we should limit everyone's play time each day to 4 hours so they don't have an advantage.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.

It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

Even if it is temporary IT IS STILL PAY TO WIN and it doesn't just affect under 50 pvp. "yeah, but who cares?" People that don't need to buy these and have ground out their toon and would like people to not have to carry the whales that pay. Play the game well sometime and you'll know that feeling.

No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning. Now you're saying the exact opposite of pay to win - you're saying you have to carry people who bought the skills and don't know how to play because they purchased everything.

First, this is nonsense. You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt. Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free.

Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude.

"Git gud at discussion dude"

"No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning"

Your own words, it's pay to win but it doesn't affect you because you only think it affects low level pvp. So you're wrong, might wanna Git dud at remembering your own points for more than 5min. It's like debating a goldfish.

"You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt"

On an alt that didn't earn those skills. Pay to win is paying for an in game advantage. "Git gud at discussion dude"

"Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free."

So you want bad players to have the ability to buy things and stay bad because some people are bad in the game. "Git gud at discussion dude"

"Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude."

Tries to take the moral high ground. Proceeds to do what you chastise people about insulting people then ends last line with an insult. So by your own words we shouldn't listen to what you have to say because you attempted to make an insult so that means your argument is bad? Go think about that and have a good day friend!

I remember what I said - I said it's a non-issue and it is. Unless you're so bad you have to stick to <50 pvp to feel like you're winning. There is zero advantage to gaining these skills on an alt for money otherwise - and <50 pvp is totally inconsequential. Not sure what you don't understand. I also don't know why you quoted me after every one of your arguments, but yeah - git gud. Being angry and obnoxious doesn't add weight to your words, it just makes you look like an insufferable person.

Ermiq

jircris11 wrote: »

Ever notice it's always the pvpers who scream p2w. And not the GOOD ones who know how to counter the skill lines lol.

Wrong. PvEer here. The fact that I'm doing occasional PvP once in a week doesn't mean I'm a PvPer.
However, it doesn't matter whether you PvPer or PvEer at all. It's just a matter of common sense. Some PvEers think 'Pay2win doesn't affect my precious PvE, so I don't care', but I'm utterly disagree with this mindset.

JKorr wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

PvP ?

The problem here is that people can literly buy those skill line on their straight after tutorial level 3 alts. So at low level pvp BGs or Cyro, people who have paied RL money have access to a huge advatage. Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Undaunted passives...
There is no other way to have those skill lines fully levelled and still have low level bonus scaling.
That is whenever you like it or not - it is P2W.

You get money from ZOS for winning? Millions in in-game gold? Bigger tape measure for your epeen? Pray tell, besides bragging rights, what do you "win"? Normally once people are out of kindergarten the glory of beating other kids in pointless competitions dulls a bit. You beat me. Congrats. U TEH BESTEST. I really don't give a flying poop, but good for you. And sorry, you mean you actually paid money to buy crowns to buy skills *just* to beat other players? Oh you poor, poor person. To be that competitive and hyped up over "winning" absolutely nothing in a game.

I've seen exactly the same statements already. You know where? At asian pay2win games forums. People there say exactly the same all the time.

Starlock

ArenGesus wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

You would already have that "edge" on your main character, regardless. An new alt isn't the same thing as a new player on a new account. It is closer to being the same thing as respeccing your existing character and is NOT pay to win. I'm the first to call out BS practices like P2W and ya'll are just flat out wrong and are really grasping with this nonsense.

Something for consideration.

Do you remember games that, when you created another character, there were simply no options to cheat your way to completion? Or if there was, these were cheat codes built into the game that you didn't have to PAY MONEY for? I do.

Thinking about things in this context, do you think it is an acceptable practice for companies to heavily monetize something that has been an essentially free feature in games of the past? What do you suppose the reasoning is behind Zenimax not allowing players to accelerate their new characters without paying money for it?

Because let me tell you, that was a deliberate design choice to exploit player's wallets. If you go back and look at some of the discussions where players requested accelerating their character development, they wanted this to be a standard, in game feature that did not exploit their wallets. But of course that isn't what we got because the CEOs had to add one more predatory microtransaction to this game. We aren't even given the option to use in-game gold we've amassed on our first character to accelerate the skill lines on our new characters. No, it's pay cash or shut up. I don't find that okay. Do you?

OK, this is a different argument and I agree with this one. Now you're saying these are things that should be available, but not at a price. Amen to that. I just don't think it's a p2w issue.

As a non-competitive gamer, I'm never going to be one to care about whether or not something is "pay to win" or not in the sense that most people mean. When most people say "pay to win" they are talking about competition against other players as the standard of measure. Except that isn't how a story-driven player like myself rolls. For me, the competition is in expressing my own creativity by making interesting characters and seeing them realized in the game. By that standard, this game has been "pay to win" since the very moment costumes were put in the cash shop as they are impossible to obtain any other way.

RP/story folks like myself have been abused by microtransactions routinely and few pay any attention to this because they don't understand. Cosmetics are essential for my gameplay experience and significantly impact gameplay for me, but I constantly get told that isn't the case because "it's just cosmetics." Aesthetics and style are a critical part of character development, as any character designer will tell you. Not having access to those things is "loosing" for us and finally getting them is "winning." The publishers of this game made a very deliberate decision when they put so much of this in the cash shop only for ridiculous prices. They didn't have to be so exploitative with this, but why wouldn't they? All the higher ups care about at the end of the day is making money hand over fist.

daniolio90

hamgatan wrote: »

i would have gladly paid to not have to grind out 16 Veteran Ranks per character back in the day..

that's not paying to win.. that's paying to not waste months of my life again on repetitive crap i've already done.

Yea, But u did grind vet16, And it's a game, it takes time. It's supposed to take time, its an mmo, its part of the content. U did take your time to grind it, u earned it. Now someone coming into the game, a new dude can get it in 2 seconds :P Fun much ?

ArenGesus

Starlock wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

You would already have that "edge" on your main character, regardless. An new alt isn't the same thing as a new player on a new account. It is closer to being the same thing as respeccing your existing character and is NOT pay to win. I'm the first to call out BS practices like P2W and ya'll are just flat out wrong and are really grasping with this nonsense.

Something for consideration.

Do you remember games that, when you created another character, there were simply no options to cheat your way to completion? Or if there was, these were cheat codes built into the game that you didn't have to PAY MONEY for? I do.

Thinking about things in this context, do you think it is an acceptable practice for companies to heavily monetize something that has been an essentially free feature in games of the past? What do you suppose the reasoning is behind Zenimax not allowing players to accelerate their new characters without paying money for it?

Because let me tell you, that was a deliberate design choice to exploit player's wallets. If you go back and look at some of the discussions where players requested accelerating their character development, they wanted this to be a standard, in game feature that did not exploit their wallets. But of course that isn't what we got because the CEOs had to add one more predatory microtransaction to this game. We aren't even given the option to use in-game gold we've amassed on our first character to accelerate the skill lines on our new characters. No, it's pay cash or shut up. I don't find that okay. Do you?

OK, this is a different argument and I agree with this one. Now you're saying these are things that should be available, but not at a price. Amen to that. I just don't think it's a p2w issue.

As a non-competitive gamer, I'm never going to be one to care about whether or not something is "pay to win" or not in the sense that most people mean. When most people say "pay to win" they are talking about competition against other players as the standard of measure. Except that isn't how a story-driven player like myself rolls. For me, the competition is in expressing my own creativity by making interesting characters and seeing them realized in the game. By that standard, this game has been "pay to win" since the very moment costumes were put in the cash shop as they are impossible to obtain any other way.

RP/story folks like myself have been abused by microtransactions routinely and few pay any attention to this because they don't understand. Cosmetics are essential for my gameplay experience and significantly impact gameplay for me, but I constantly get told that isn't the case because "it's just cosmetics." Aesthetics and style are a critical part of character development, as any character designer will tell you. Not having access to those things is "loosing" for us and finally getting them is "winning." The publishers of this game made a very deliberate decision when they put so much of this in the cash shop only for ridiculous prices. They didn't have to be so exploitative with this, but why wouldn't they? All the higher ups care about at the end of the day is making money hand over fist.

Yeah, I think you have something to gripe about there - it's a perspective I haven't heard before. My arguments against what is available for crowns being p2w are solely in the sense of competition among players. Even in the rp sense, you aren't getting beaten by another player who has more money, you just aren't able to obtain the same stuff - still valid, maybe - just different.

I'm against the cash shop in most respects. I would rather the game be sub only (because I think they do need a vehicle for recurring income to cover servers/bandwidth) and have all things able to be earned in game. I just don't see the current model as p2w. Infuriating? sure. P2w? no.

ArenGesus

daniolio90 wrote: »

hamgatan wrote: »

i would have gladly paid to not have to grind out 16 Veteran Ranks per character back in the day..

that's not paying to win.. that's paying to not waste months of my life again on repetitive crap i've already done.

Yea, But u did grind vet16, And it's a game, it takes time. It's supposed to take time, its an mmo, its part of the content. U did take your time to grind it, u earned it. Now someone coming into the game, a new dude can get it in 2 seconds :P Fun much ?

People keep saying this and it keeps being totally untrue. You DO have to grind it if you're new to the game. You can't just get it in 2 seconds. If you're leveling an alt and have these skills available for purchase, it's because you already put in the time.

daniolio90

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

But you are :P All the time u spent grinding it is actuall irl time lost, compared to someone who can access it instantlly. Also, if u spent 60 days on levling your mount each and everyday, That mathematacly makes u slower in every instance farming, right. Whilst someone can get it instantlly and gather/farm way faster x) ! there is alot more to gain/people have gained over non payers. dlc's with stronger sets, essensial for todays meta etc ^^ Advantages, not only conviniences.

daniolio90

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

The difference is that there is not only mages guild, theres also Alliance of war, vampyre, warewolf, darkbrotherhood, fighters guild, legerdemain, Psijic order, thiefs guild, unduanted.

Try all that in 9 min ;D

daniolio90

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

There is no such thing as an advantage in a non-competitive setting.

There are ladders for a reason tho and rankings in pvp for a reason, So it's competitive x) Gather facts first buddy ^^

ArenGesus

daniolio90 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

There is no such thing as an advantage in a non-competitive setting.

There are ladders for a reason tho and rankings in pvp for a reason, So it's competitive x) Gather facts first buddy ^^

Is under 50 pvp ranked?

daniolio90

Chicharron wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

how sad.

You know... when someone has family, i.e. Wife, children, that kind of things like pay 2 win seems curious and insignificant.

I think it's too late for you, but maybe if you try a lot, in your other life maybe you understand, a little...

Although I doubt it very much.

Adios.

Then maybe if u have a family, dont play an mmo xP

ArenGesus

daniolio90 wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

how sad.

You know... when someone has family, i.e. Wife, children, that kind of things like pay 2 win seems curious and insignificant.

I think it's too late for you, but maybe if you try a lot, in your other life maybe you understand, a little...

Although I doubt it very much.

Adios.

Then maybe if u have a family, dont play an mmo xP

Maybe if you can't afford to pay for the game, don't play an mmo.

Rave the Histborn

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I have no problem with this whatsoever.
I can totally understand why someone would not want to grind these skill lines over and over again when they already did it 1, 2, 3 times.

I have 18 characters.

I could buy every skill line for them if I wanted but would rather not spend that kind of money on that. I've purchased the Cyrodiil shards for the other alliances for my 3 new characters because I dont want to go through that torture after I've done it 15 times.

I work full time, have a family, other hobbies and responsibilities so I have not had time to complete all those skill lines on all my characters.

Complaining that someone can buy them is like me complaining that someone that can play all day every day and level those skill lines in game is play to win and we should limit everyone's play time each day to 4 hours so they don't have an advantage.

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.

It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.

Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.

Even if it is temporary IT IS STILL PAY TO WIN and it doesn't just affect under 50 pvp. "yeah, but who cares?" People that don't need to buy these and have ground out their toon and would like people to not have to carry the whales that pay. Play the game well sometime and you'll know that feeling.

No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning. Now you're saying the exact opposite of pay to win - you're saying you have to carry people who bought the skills and don't know how to play because they purchased everything.

First, this is nonsense. You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt. Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free.

Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude.

"Git gud at discussion dude"

"No, it literally is just a <50 pvp issue. There is nowhere else in the game you can pay for these skill lines and get a sense of winning"

Your own words, it's pay to win but it doesn't affect you because you only think it affects low level pvp. So you're wrong, might wanna Git dud at remembering your own points for more than 5min. It's like debating a goldfish.

"You have to earn the skills before they are available for purchase on an alt"

On an alt that didn't earn those skills. Pay to win is paying for an in game advantage. "Git gud at discussion dude"

"Second, what you are describing is pay to lose. Who cares if somebody wants to give up all of their money and still be a bad player? I don't - there are plenty who are bad that have gotten that way for free."

So you want bad players to have the ability to buy things and stay bad because some people are bad in the game. "Git gud at discussion dude"

"Last, you know you're bad when instead of making an argument you attempt to make an insult. Git gud at discussion dude."

Tries to take the moral high ground. Proceeds to do what you chastise people about insulting people then ends last line with an insult. So by your own words we shouldn't listen to what you have to say because you attempted to make an insult so that means your argument is bad? Go think about that and have a good day friend!

I remember what I said - I said it's a non-issue and it is. Unless you're so bad you have to stick to <50 pvp to feel like you're winning. There is zero advantage to gaining these skills on an alt for money otherwise - and <50 pvp is totally inconsequential. Not sure what you don't understand. I also don't know why you quoted me after every one of your arguments, but yeah - git gud. Being angry and obnoxious doesn't add weight to your words, it just makes you look like an insufferable person.

If there was zero advantage to gaining these skills on an alt why are they selling them? Oh wait, it's cuz there's an advantage.

"There is zero advantage to gaining these skills on an alt for money otherwise - and <50 pvp is totally inconsequential. Not sure what you don't understand. "

I don't understand why you keep thinking your opinion is fact. If you're paying for an advantage it isn't inconsequential. Not sure why this is so hard for you to get. Just because it isn't an advantage in your opinion doesn't mean it's not an advantage. But again "Git gud at discussion dude" you might wanna try it.

" Being angry and obnoxious doesn't add weight to your words, it just makes you look like an insufferable person."

Didn't you tell me to "Git gud at discussion dude", you might wanna follow your own words before you tell other people what to do. I'm not angry, I might be obnoxious but that's because if you wanna have an opinion that you can't defend you shouldn't be in there defending it.

Insco851

VaranisArano wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

(During which time most people are going to slot and level/morph the skills they're aiming to unlock in the first place, and if you buy a skill line you're still going to have to do the grind to level/morph your skills).

Undaunted is the only one I can think of. You can manage 150 points a day if you get with a group who shares the quests, so its definitely doable at low levels, but it'll take a while.

All the others you can level up pretty quickly even at low levels, time-wise.

If you aren't low-level, you can knock it out quicker by running for dungeon achievements.

You can level undaunted in a couple days by doing all the normal plus vet- speed run, no death, hard mode accomplishments. You don’t have to wait on the dailys.

BNOC

daniolio90 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

There is no such thing as an advantage in a non-competitive setting.

There are ladders for a reason tho and rankings in pvp for a reason, So it's competitive x) Gather facts first buddy ^^

What ladders?
PvE leaderboards are dominated by players that have complete access to all of this already.
PvP rankings are almost entirely based on available time to play
BG leaderboards are based on time played as well because totals are additive per match played. (regardless of outcome aka not-competitive)
Cyro leaderboards are effectively, who can either be in the strongest team farming zergs for hours or who can travel around most efficiently getting hefty ticks, and at the end of the day, still comes down to time played.

None of the leaderboards away from PvE matter.

daniolio90

idk wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.

To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)

Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.

First of all Archaege was never a great game. It was a sad example of a F2P game at best. Probably one of the worst games in recent years you could have used as an example. Yes, I played it briefly.

Being able to buy a weapon in game is not P2W. You clearly not know the definition of P2W. You do seem a little flustered which may be why your P2W example does not make sense.

First of all, your argument is based on a bias action regarding you liking archeage as a game or not. Child.. And second of all, it's one of the exmaples where the developers actually broke the game and the playerbase went viral of the companys greed destroying the game, that is the truth, now who gives a *** weather u liked the game or not, an example is an example. Second of all, pay to win is as defined pay to win. Wiki it, or look at earlier commets, **This is for all of you that think you know what pay to win is** Get facts instead of bias opinions.

Rex-Umbra

Under 50 pvp is now p2w. Used to be fun to level new characters in bgs/cyrodiil but its so messed with decked out chars.