Jesus, greedy company ! Stop making this game Pay to 2 win.

idk

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

Ermiq

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

2 hours and 59 minutes. Let me do some math, wait a sec... It's 179 times faster. Not to mention that it's for PC with addons, on consoles it's WAY more.

Casterial

daniolio90 wrote: »

This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.

To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)

Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.

Oh god, oh no! I have to do quest and unlock everything to unlock it with expensive crowns on my alt! Oh no Pay to win!!

What is pay to win about this game? Lmao

This game isn't even close to pay to win

mairwen85

One specific scenario where p2w maybe applies: under lvl 50 pvp. So create character, purchase guild lines, purchase skill points - - enjoy for a few days - - repeat. Delete characters you paid into when they hit 50 for space, start over. Do this X times. Then you wonder how sustainable that is per player... Who is the fool and really loosing out in this scenario?

Tirps

LiquidPony wrote: »

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

Legerdemain. Can't remember if dark brotherhood or thieves guild had daily limit too but if they had, then they too.

rpa

I made a magcro some time ago and got lv12 just by starting Mages, Fighters, DB, Thieves, Undaunted, Psijic and acquiring Vampirism. (I did not try to avoid exp, but did not do much anything but running around and picking wayshrines & skyshards I passed by.)

In any case game has been P2W since invention of crown riding lessons. If unlocking skill lines by crowns is not intended as P2W it should not be available for lowbies.

Meglish

Y’all are funny. Does the “real” definition really matter? I prefer just to pay a monthly fee and not be able to buy any additional content. You know, old school.

VaranisArano

mairwen85 wrote: »

One specific scenario where p2w maybe applies: under lvl 50 pvp. So create character, purchase guild lines, purchase skill points - - enjoy for a few days - - repeat. Delete characters you paid into when they hit 50 for space, start over. Do this X times. Then you wonder how sustainable that is per player... Who is the fool and really loosing out in this scenario?

Anyone deleting a character they sunk money into...

Well, they have more money than I, that's for sure.

VaranisArano

Tirps wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

Legerdemain. Can't remember if dark brotherhood or thieves guild had daily limit too but if they had, then they too.

I don't believe they do. The daily limit is more or less how many times you can stomach doing "Kill 3 citizens in Kvatch" or hunting down dolls for the Covetess Countess in a day. If you plan ahead and stock up on laundered items for the Countess quest, you can knock out TG on an alt pretty quickly.

Legerdemain is only time-limited by the fencing limit, which admittedly is the quickest way to raise it. Otherwise, you'd spend a lot of time farming overland chests. Again, if you stocked up on stolen items beforehand or just used your DB spoils, most of the time would be spent just waiting out the cool down.

Still, there's not really any advantage over other players,to getting those skill lines quicker. Careful and stealthy thieves or murderers are quite capable of doing just fine, leveling up the normal way.

mairwen85

VaranisArano wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

One specific scenario where p2w maybe applies: under lvl 50 pvp. So create character, purchase guild lines, purchase skill points - - enjoy for a few days - - repeat. Delete characters you paid into when they hit 50 for space, start over. Do this X times. Then you wonder how sustainable that is per player... Who is the fool and really loosing out in this scenario?

Anyone deleting a character they sunk money into...

Well, they have more money than I, that's for sure.

Precisely my point. I can't see anyone doing this on a permanent basis. The whole argument is moot. But still somehow the best example the p2w crowd can come up...

Facefister

I am for trial/dungeon and vMA gear on the store. I've cleared those at least once, why should I farm those instances again?

mairwen85

Facefister wrote: »

I am for trial/dungeon and vMA gear on the store. I've cleared those at least once, why should I farm those instances again?

I stand corrected... 😂

Rave the Histborn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.

But it hasn't gone P2W, nor has ZOS shown any indication of going there, so you have nothing to worry about.

"ZOS shown any indication of going there"

WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.

SirAxen

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

ESO is not P2W, bud. Get over it. It ain't yet, at least.

kargen27

It is pay to not play.

Hey I like this game so much I am going to start a new character but not quite so much that I am going to play the game on that character.

mairwen85

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.

But it hasn't gone P2W, nor has ZOS shown any indication of going there, so you have nothing to worry about.

"ZOS shown any indication of going there"

WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.

Facefister

mairwen85 wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

I am for trial/dungeon and vMA gear on the store. I've cleared those at least once, why should I farm those instances again?

I stand corrected... 😂

By the definition of the community, it wouldn't be P2W, only a time-saver.

Rave the Histborn

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Rave the Histborn

SirAxen wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

ESO is not P2W, bud. Get over it. It ain't yet, at least.

Wrap it up guys, conversation is over. SirAxen took time away from rewatching the new star wars trailer and crying to clear it all up for us.

VaranisArano

mairwen85 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

One specific scenario where p2w maybe applies: under lvl 50 pvp. So create character, purchase guild lines, purchase skill points - - enjoy for a few days - - repeat. Delete characters you paid into when they hit 50 for space, start over. Do this X times. Then you wonder how sustainable that is per player... Who is the fool and really loosing out in this scenario?

Anyone deleting a character they sunk money into...

Well, they have more money than I, that's for sure.

Precisely my point. I can't see anyone doing this on a permanent basis. The whole argument is moot. But still somehow the best example the p2w crowd can come up...

Personally, I don't like the skill lines being unlocked for low level PVP.

My concern isnt so much that players are going to want to stay and keep dominating low level BGs.

Rather, I suspect we'll see players who are just passing through, using the daily random BG to level up so they can get to their preferred level of end game PVP or PVE. But in the meantime, they'll still be bringing skill lines/passives to the table that low level players who don't buy the skill lines can't possibly have unlocked at their level. Undaunted, Fighters Guild, and Alliance War are the big culprits here. For example, I remember starting BGs at level 10 on a stam build and really wishing I had Vigor available. Now, players can get Vigor at level 10 if they want to pay for it.

The advantage those players gain is definitely temporary. Still, it has detrimental effects on low level BGs even if those players are just passing through.

Wispsister

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.

It would be P2W if they made those skill lines locked behind a paywall. Which they are not.
What they did was for money, of course because they are a company and kind of need to make money, but it is for convenience more than anything. You, right now, can have those sweet, sweet buffed skills for -- you guessed it! -- free.
The second they ACTUALLY lock those skills behind a 3k crown purchase, as in the ONLY way you could get those skills is by purchase (which is how it'd be if it was P2W btw), then you can poke them with your pitchforks all you want. Stop condemning them for giving players the option to skip boring grinds they may have already done numerous times. That's all it is, a shortcut. An option. If you don't want to pay, then you don't HAVE TO. Ya'll crying so hard over nothing.

Facefister

Wispsister wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.

It would be P2W if they made those skill lines locked behind a paywall. Which they are not.
What they did was for money, of course because they are a company and kind of need to make money, but it is for convenience more than anything. You, right now, can have those sweet, sweet buffed skills for -- you guessed it! -- free.
The second they ACTUALLY lock those skills behind a 3k crown purchase, as in the ONLY way you could get those skills is by purchase (which is how it'd be if it was P2W btw), then you can poke them with your pitchforks all you want. Stop condemning them for giving players the option to skip boring grinds they may have already done numerous times. That's all it is, a shortcut. An option. If you don't want to pay, then you don't HAVE TO. Ya'll crying so hard over nothing.

vMA skips when?

Ermiq

Wispsister wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.

Stop condemning them for giving players the option to skip boring grinds they may have already done numerous times.

What if they made vMA farming a bit more grindy? Would you then say it's okay to sell vMA loot boxes in CS, because people already grinded vMA numerous times?
I mean, it's a bit different but the basis, the source of the issue is exactly the same.

Turelus

VaranisArano wrote: »

Paying to get something faster but not better is Pay for Convenience.

Examples of Pay for Convenience: exp scrolls, riding lessons, Craft Bag, ESO+ sub benefits, research scrolls.

The only place where skill lines are Pay To Win is low level PVP, where players can buy better skills/passives than their non paying opponents can possibly get at that level the normal way.

This sums up my feelings on it well enough.

I've played real pay to win games and ESO is far from that line.

mairwen85

Facefister wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

I am for trial/dungeon and vMA gear on the store. I've cleared those at least once, why should I farm those instances again?

I stand corrected... 😂

By the definition of the community, it wouldn't be P2W, only a time-saver.

I'd pay money to clone certain gear I'd grinded weeks or months for. Agreed it isn't pay to win. I can't see the validity of your argument. As with shards and guild lines, if you obtained it once, it is purchasable. You can't buy 1 skill or 1 Shard, or a single skill point, full sets only and only if acquired in full. If the same premise applies to gear, I'm good with that personally.

mairwen85

VaranisArano wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

One specific scenario where p2w maybe applies: under lvl 50 pvp. So create character, purchase guild lines, purchase skill points - - enjoy for a few days - - repeat. Delete characters you paid into when they hit 50 for space, start over. Do this X times. Then you wonder how sustainable that is per player... Who is the fool and really loosing out in this scenario?

Anyone deleting a character they sunk money into...

Well, they have more money than I, that's for sure.

Precisely my point. I can't see anyone doing this on a permanent basis. The whole argument is moot. But still somehow the best example the p2w crowd can come up...

Personally, I don't like the skill lines being unlocked for low level PVP.

My concern isnt so much that players are going to want to stay and keep dominating low level BGs.

Rather, I suspect we'll see players who are just passing through, using the daily random BG to level up so they can get to their preferred level of end game PVP or PVE. But in the meantime, they'll still be bringing skill lines/passives to the table that low level players who don't buy the skill lines can't possibly have unlocked at their level. Undaunted, Fighters Guild, and Alliance War are the big culprits here. For example, I remember starting BGs at level 10 on a stam build and really wishing I had Vigor available. Now, players can get Vigor at level 10 if they want to pay for it.

The advantage those players gain is definitely temporary. Still, it has detrimental effects on low level BGs even if those players are just passing through.

I don't enjoy them being there either. Can't stop the train now though. There is a brief advantage, the same advantage available to all.

Ermiq

Turelus wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Paying to get something faster but not better is Pay for Convenience.

Examples of Pay for Convenience: exp scrolls, riding lessons, Craft Bag, ESO+ sub benefits, research scrolls.

The only place where skill lines are Pay To Win is low level PVP, where players can buy better skills/passives than their non paying opponents can possibly get at that level the normal way.

I've played real pay to win games and ESO is far from that line.

Not far. It's actually somewhere in between the old good 'no pay2win' and 'pay2win'.

Kylric

I don't post often, and I'm not sure why I'm posting now.... but here I go.

I've been playing for over a couple of years and truly tired of going through some of the same content over and over again - boring!. I am glad they have the OPTION of buying a skill line I have already earned when I'm interested in playing a new class. Heck, I would pay for a class changes too. I work more than 40 hour a week, and have family and other RL obligations. Maybe that is not an option for you, but stop overreacting. They are not selling a +5 vorpal sword of instant smiting, they are letting people enjoy other content.

Based on the threads, and others, it seems like many of you enjoy doing the same quests and content over and over - I don't. Enjoy the game your way.

I've been playing MMOs for maybe 2 decades, and every time a company sells something, increases their prices or takes any action where they can make more money there will always be a thread where people complain about the evil empire trying to steal the allowance from the victims...err.. subscribers.

Let me break it down a bit. If I buy crowns once in a while and pay for a monthly subscription, I'm paying around $25 per month, maybe a little more if I want more crowns. How much does that cost per hour you play? $0.50? Less? Heck, you don't even need a subscription, nor do you need crowns.

I know, they are criminals and they have ruined your life. It's a travesty!

Wait until you go to buy a car and you find some of the nicer cars are more expensive too. That will truly blow your mind.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.

Nothing to see here folks! Someone’s just confused that you can STILL PUT IN THE EFFORT without buying the skill lines!

idk

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?

The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.

Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.

He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.

Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.