Jesus, greedy company ! Stop making this game Pay to 2 win.

daniolio90

This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.

To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)

Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.

MLGProPlayer

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

StormeReigns

Creditable citation is needed please.

VaranisArano

Paying to get something faster but not better is Pay for Convenience.

Examples of Pay for Convenience: exp scrolls, riding lessons, Craft Bag, ESO+ sub benefits, research scrolls.

The only place where skill lines are Pay To Win is low level PVP, where players can buy better skills/passives than their non paying opponents can possibly get at that level the normal way.

GeorgeBlack

Crown sales for ingame gold is p2w.
However in ESO there is nothing to win.
Content is ez farming is ez, PvP is isolated.

Even combat potions are made with an hour farming in IC for Tel Var stones.

I agree in a way, but there is no winning sense in ESO.
It's a theme park.

WrathOfInnos

Honestly Necromancer probably does fall under pay to win, not that I have a problem with the business model where you have to buy the large expansions that come with new classes. If they didn't include anything good it would just be a waste of money. IMO Necro is a little overtuned, but Warden was a little too weak (possibly from fear of P2W claims).

Davor

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

Attackfrog

I wish there was a pay to win option...

I'd totally pay for it.

MLGProPlayer

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

hamgatan

i would have gladly paid to not have to grind out 16 Veteran Ranks per character back in the day..

that's not paying to win.. that's paying to not waste months of my life again on repetitive crap i've already done.

Rave the Histborn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

LiquidPony

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

(During which time most people are going to slot and level/morph the skills they're aiming to unlock in the first place, and if you buy a skill line you're still going to have to do the grind to level/morph your skills).

MLGProPlayer

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

VaranisArano

LiquidPony wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

(During which time most people are going to slot and level/morph the skills they're aiming to unlock in the first place, and if you buy a skill line you're still going to have to do the grind to level/morph your skills).

Undaunted is the only one I can think of. You can manage 150 points a day if you get with a group who shares the quests, so its definitely doable at low levels, but it'll take a while.

All the others you can level up pretty quickly even at low levels, time-wise.

If you aren't low-level, you can knock it out quicker by running for dungeon achievements.

Chicharron

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

Rave the Histborn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

WeylandLabs

Let's create more p2w threads and debate over the definition of p2w for 3 months again.

Me : Nope you are all insane people 😩

hamgatan

LiquidPony wrote: »

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

Psijic Order.. Alliance War.. Mages Guild.. Undaunted..

Rave the Histborn

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

MLGProPlayer

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

There is no such thing as an advantage in a non-competitive setting.

MLGProPlayer

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

Wispsister

hamgatan wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Which skill line can you not max out in a few hours?

Psijic Order.. Alliance War.. Mages Guild.. Undaunted..

I literally just finished grinding out Psijic and Mages guild over the course of maybe 6 hours spread over 2 days, so clearly you're doing something wrong.
Can't say anything for the other two, but I'm not sure why some of you are trying to say saving some time is P2W.
I don't get it. Do your guild abilities get stronger if you pay crowns instead of doing it the old fashioned way? ... no? then what's the problem...?

YaYaPineapple

Its almost as if a multi-million dollar company doesn't consult with you when making business decisions OP...

Unbelievable!

jircris11

Yet another person who does not know the difference between p2w (buying an item with real money that is otherwise unobtainable to get a massive advantage) and p4c pay for convenience (unlocking skills or other aspects quickly vs doing so through game play. No advantage as its obtainable to all). Please learn the difference

Chicharron

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Chicharron wrote: »

daniolio90 wrote: »

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.

What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?

What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?

The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.

how sad.

You know... when someone has family, i.e. Wife, children, that kind of things like pay 2 win seems curious and insignificant.

I think it's too late for you, but maybe if you try a lot, in your other life maybe you understand, a little...

Although I doubt it very much.

Adios.

kromegas

Stop crying. This is NOT pay to win. I have no problem with people paying for a convince for something THEY ALREADY UNLOCKED AND EARNED.

However, they could make you hit level 50 with a character for the skills to be purchasable....then we wouldn’t have the under 50 complaints,

How is this different from getting your CP points automatically when you roll a new toon?

J2JMC

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

It should matter to everyone. I don't want to see anyone who defends this business model complaining about the state of the game ever again. Not only is it anti-consumer in general, this support for paying for skill lines only encourages ZOS to hide future content behind grindy gameplay that is not enjoyable. They now know that not only will ya'll beg them to not play the garbage content they created, you'll also fiercely defend ZOS against anyone who suggests garbage gameplay design should not be circumvented via the crown store.

And for the record, it's not just bad gameplay design that is being circumvented in this case. I actually think ZOS did the right thing by not making the undaunted skill line account wide. It's one of the tools that keep experienced players grouping for dungeons (alongside lfg xp, pledges, and monster helms). So not only are they hiding their bad gameplay design behind the crown store, but they are also ignoring their good gameplay design. Neither of these things are healthy for the game.

idk

daniolio90 wrote: »

This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.

To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.

If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)

Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.

First of all Archaege was never a great game. It was a sad example of a F2P game at best. Probably one of the worst games in recent years you could have used as an example. Yes, I played it briefly.

Being able to buy a weapon in game is not P2W. You clearly not know the definition of P2W. You do seem a little flustered which may be why your P2W example does not make sense.

MLGProPlayer

J2JMC wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

It should matter to everyone. I don't want to see anyone who defends this business model complaining about the state of the game ever again. Not only is it anti-consumer in general, this support for paying for skill lines only encourages ZOS to hide future content behind grindy gameplay that is not enjoyable. They now know that not only will ya'll beg them to not play the garbage content they created, you'll also fiercely defend ZOS against anyone who suggests garbage gameplay design should not be circumvented via the crown store.

And for the record, it's not just bad gameplay design that is being circumvented in this case. I actually think ZOS did the right thing by not making the undaunted skill line account wide. It's one of the tools that keep experienced players grouping for dungeons (alongside lfg xp, pledges, and monster helms). So not only are they hiding their bad gameplay design behind the crown store, but they are also ignoring their good gameplay design. Neither of these things are healthy for the game.

MMOs are grindy by their very nature. Almost all of the grind in this game was already there from when the game was still subscription-based. If anything, it's actually gotten considerably less grindy over the years.

Rave the Histborn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.

MLGProPlayer

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?

By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?

That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.

Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.

Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.

I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.

P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.

You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.

No. This is pay to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win

In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.

You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.

You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.

At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.

If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.

At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.

Why does it matter to you?

Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.

But it hasn't gone P2W, nor has ZOS shown any indication of going there, so you have nothing to worry about.