Maintenance for the week of December 16:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 16
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 16
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
Jesus, greedy company ! Stop making this game Pay to 2 win.
-
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone who says this is pay to win doesn't understand the fundamental concept that defines pay to win which is paying for something that is OTHERWISE UNOBTAINABLE AT ALL BY IN-GAME MEANS.
Not only is this NOT p2w, but you need to have already completed the associated skill lines on at least one character.
Take your self-righteous fear-mongering and gtfo.11 -
Ilithyania✭✭✭✭✭no more P2W then buying a already XP boosted character like in SWTOR.
just less grind timePC0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?
That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.
Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.
Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.
I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.
P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.
You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.
No. This is pay to win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.
You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.
At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.
If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.
At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.
Why does it matter to you?
Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.
But it hasn't gone P2W, nor has ZOS shown any indication of going there, so you have nothing to worry about.
"ZOS shown any indication of going there"
WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.
Those skills are only relevant to endgame players, and they already have them unlocked.
And they buffed universal skills so they wouldn't need to balance classes separately. It's easier to balance the game when every class is using the same skills. I don't necessarily like it, but that's the philosophy behind the changes.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 29, 2019 8:09AM3 -
Mathius_Mordred✭✭✭✭✭Another thread on the same day about the same topic @ZOS_GinaBruno time to merge threads or close one of them?
As it's an almost duplicate rant I will give a duplicate answer
I've already worked hard for those skill lines. If I now want to roll an alt and avoid the huge grind they involve I can buy the skill lines again. How on Earth is this pay to win if I've already done the long grind for it? As others have mentioned the only slight advantage you will have is if you are in a low-level BG or Cyrodiil event, but you can't do that for long because those events will level your character up, thus the very act of fighting in a low-level arena moves you inexorably out of it.
This is P4C, not P2W, please try to understand what a P2W environment would be like. For example, you can buy a mount that runs twice as fast as anything in-game, or you can buy weapons with far superior stats than anything in-game, or purchasable God armour, or purchasable only skill lines which are vastly superior to those in-game, all these things would be P2W and would result in the game lasting a few months before enough people left for it to no longer be a viable business.
Why do people keep making these ridiculous assumptions again and again?Skyrim Red Shirts. Join us at https://skyrimredshirts.co.ukJoin Skyrim Red Shirts. Free trader. We welcome all, from new players to Vets. A mature drama-free social group enjoying PVE questing, PvP, Dungeons, trials and arenas. Web, FB Group & Discord. Guild Hall, trial dummy, crafting, transmutation, banker & merchant. You may invite your friends. No requirements3 -
As many have said, you still have to do the content once to release the option to buy the skills.
This method levels the playing field between those who are time rich but cash poor compared to those who are time poor but cash rich.
Up to now, time rich people had an advantage, not "pay to win" but "time to win". The concept that you have to put in the effort to gain the reward is okay, if you have the time. This method is a compromise where you have to put in the effort once, but after that you can pay to achieve the same as those with more time.
For those that are both time and cash rich it's win, win, with the only constraint being their personal skill level.
For those that are both time poor and cash poor, I can offer no solace other than to say that I hope things improve.
0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Chicharron wrote: »daniolio90 wrote: »If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.
What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?
What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?
The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.
Obviously, it makes things quicker, but there is still a fairly vital distinction to be made between paying to save playing time and paying to buy something, that helps your progress, and that isn't available to acquire in-game.
The latter is definitely pay-to-win, while the former is more of a grey area and probably leans slightly more towards QOL than pay-to-win.
Not to say it's fair, exactly, but it's far less unfair.
There again, I don't take part in the competitive aspects of this game, so it's highly possible I'm missing something here.
Like, for example, people being forced to swap classes (after a nerf) in order to compete in trials, or do high end PVP.
At that point, it becomes far more pay-to-win than mere QOL.
Also, I do think a complete lack of craft bag, without ESO+, is very disabling and therefore, do not really view the unlimited one as a mere QOL improvement.
On the other hand, if there was a basic one, that held 2 or 3 stacks of mats, the unlimited one would be back to being far more QOL than pay-to-win.0 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh just shut up with these whiny threads complaining about the skill lines / skyshards now being purchasable for Crowns.
If you have been on the forums, players have been asking for this for ages.
You have to have played through them at least once, and they are quite expensive, so not a problem for me in the long run if someone wants to waste their money purchasing something you can get EASILY within a few hours playing then game.
Now please go away. Had enough.6 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Idiots trying to justify the skill lines being not pay to win because “you’ve already unlocked them once” get a grip. Have you people heard of below 50 PVP and battle levelled characters in this game? The only reason they are getting away with this crap is because the game isn’t popular enough for there to be coverage on this.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
PvP ?MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The problem here is that people can literly buy those skill line on their straight after tutorial level 3 alts. So at low level pvp BGs or Cyro, people who have paied RL money have access to a huge advatage. Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Undaunted passives...
There is no other way to have those skill lines fully levelled and still have low level bonus scaling.
That is whenever you like it or not - it is P2W.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on August 29, 2019 9:20AM2 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Idiots trying to justify the skill lines being not pay to win because “you’ve already unlocked them once” get a grip. Have you people heard of below 50 PVP and battle levelled characters in this game? The only reason they are getting away with this crap is because the game isn’t popular enough for there to be coverage on this.
Eating the whole tub of paste is bad. Just saying.5 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
The problem here is that people can literly buy those skill line on their straight after tutorial level 3 alts. So at low level pvp BGs or Cyro, people who have paied RL money have access to a huge advatage. Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Undaunted passives...MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
There is no other way to have those skill lines fully levelled and still have low level bonus scaling.
That is whenever you like it or not - it is P2W.
But how? How do they win?
If they are in below 50 pvp stuff, and buy these skills to use (plus skyshards) what is the point? They will quickly level up and then have to leave the under 50 stuff. So how do they win?
1 -
Ermiq✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hallothiel wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
The problem here is that people can literly buy those skill line on their straight after tutorial level 3 alts. So at low level pvp BGs or Cyro, people who have paied RL money have access to a huge advatage. Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Undaunted passives...MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
There is no other way to have those skill lines fully levelled and still have low level bonus scaling.
That is whenever you like it or not - it is P2W.
But how? How do they win?
If they are in below 50 pvp stuff, and buy these skills to use (plus skyshards) what is the point? They will quickly level up and then have to leave the under 50 stuff. So how do they win?
It depends on what do you mean by 'win'.
In the world of MMORPG players, 'win' is when you kill other player. Do you kill other players in low BG easier when you have additional abilities and passives? Of course you do. It is 'win' bought with crowns.
What is 'win' in your world I don't know though.One of the two of us definitely has gone mad. It only remains to define whether this one is the whole world or just me.
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
Sick&tired of being kicked off from your house when you complete a dungeon? ComingBackHome addon is what you need!
Me is russian little bad in english :b3 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Ermiq
Play pvp. Quite enjoy killing other players but its just fun and I dont need to do to boost my self-esteem or have to consider it ‘winning’.
Personally dont see the point in under 50 pvp. If I roll a new character, I just take it into normal Cyrodiil with my pvp guild and level up / learn there. Can see point in no-CP, just not under 50.
So imo the skill lines & skyshards are pay for convenience. Not to win.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hallothiel wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
The problem here is that people can literly buy those skill line on their straight after tutorial level 3 alts. So at low level pvp BGs or Cyro, people who have paied RL money have access to a huge advatage. Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Undaunted passives...MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
There is no other way to have those skill lines fully levelled and still have low level bonus scaling.
That is whenever you like it or not - it is P2W.
But how? How do they win?
If they are in below 50 pvp stuff, and buy these skills to use (plus skyshards) what is the point? They will quickly level up and then have to leave the under 50 stuff. So how do they win?
They bought a temporary advantage over other players.
Sure, they will quickly outlevel the very low level where the advantage is most pronounced, but that doesn't mean that the advantage doesnt exist. Actually new players trying battlegrounds or Cyrodiil at level are disadvantaged enough with inexperience, and now the game lets them fight ostensibly low level players who bought skill lines that non-paying players literally cannot have leveled that far yet.
For example, when I started BGs on my stam sorc at level 10, I really wished I had Vigor for a self heal. Now, any level 10 player can buy Vigor. Sure, that advantage is only temporary until I also unlock and level up Vigor myself, but in the meantime it's a bought and paid for advantage that no non-paying player has access to.1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
PvP ?MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The problem here is that people can literly buy those skill line on their straight after tutorial level 3 alts. So at low level pvp BGs or Cyro, people who have paied RL money have access to a huge advatage. Meteor, Dawnbreaker, Undaunted passives...
There is no other way to have those skill lines fully levelled and still have low level bonus scaling.
That is whenever you like it or not - it is P2W.
You get money from ZOS for winning? Millions in in-game gold? Bigger tape measure for your epeen? Pray tell, besides bragging rights, what do you "win"? Normally once people are out of kindergarten the glory of beating other kids in pointless competitions dulls a bit. You beat me. Congrats. U TEH BESTEST. I really don't give a flying poop, but good for you. And sorry, you mean you actually paid money to buy crowns to buy skills *just* to beat other players? Oh you poor, poor person. To be that competitive and hyped up over "winning" absolutely nothing in a game.2 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭daniolio90 wrote: »This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.
To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.
If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)
Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.
You need to level the skill to 10 on 1 character before you can buy it for another. It's not pay to win when it comes to Alts.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc2 -
EmEm_Oh✭✭✭✭✭daniolio90 wrote: »This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.
To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.
If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)
Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.
There are several things to take issue with at the moment.
Imo, yours is not one of them. Unless you got specifics then I'd be intetested to read about it.1 -
ArenGesus✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?
That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.
Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.
Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.
I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.
P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.
You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.
No. This is pay to win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.
You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.
At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.
If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.
At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.
Why does it matter to you?
Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.
The only place this could possibly matter is in under 50 pvp. If you're putting in effort to be good in under 50 pvp then you should realize that you're basing your skill on your ability to compete with a group who by and large haven't learned the game yet. Maybe this is p2w in that particular case, but honestly it doesn't really matter because you level up so fast that under 50 pvp is very temporary and inconsequential. Anybody who cares about this is somebody who likes to create twinks and feel like a god among noobs and are annoyed because somebody else who likes to do the same thing has more money than them, so can do it more effectively. But if you're actually putting in time and effort, you've graduated to over 50 pvp and this doesn't have any impact on you whatsoever.1 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ever notice it's always the pvpers who scream p2w. And not the GOOD ones who know how to counter the skill lines lol.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer4 -
redlink1979✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Again... Pay for convinence is not paying to win..."Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"- Sons of the Night Mother [PS5][EU] 2165 CP
- Daggerfall's Mightiest [PS5][NA] 1910 CP
- SweetTrolls [PC][EU] 1950 CP
- Bacon Rats [PC][NA] 1850 CP
1 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?
The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.
Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.
He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.
Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.
That key piece of info that they either accidentally keep missing or purposefully misrepresenting.Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?
That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.
Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.
Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.
I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.
P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.
You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.
No. This is pay to win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.
You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.
At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.
If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.
At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.
Why does it matter to you?
Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.
The only place this could possibly matter is in under 50 pvp. If you're putting in effort to be good in under 50 pvp then you should realize that you're basing your skill on your ability to compete with a group who by and large haven't learned the game yet. Maybe this is p2w in that particular case, but honestly it doesn't really matter because you level up so fast that under 50 pvp is very temporary and inconsequential. Anybody who cares about this is somebody who likes to create twinks and feel like a god among noobs and are annoyed because somebody else who likes to do the same thing has more money than them, so can do it more effectively. But if you're actually putting in time and effort, you've graduated to over 50 pvp and this doesn't have any impact on you whatsoever.
That's what that argument boils down to, that's the only time it makes any difference and even then, it's so insignificant and doesn't mean much, just as it doesn't at end game between 2 equally skilled and geared PVPers.vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
Xerikten✭✭✭✭daniolio90 wrote: »This company is killing this wounderful game by vastly making "conveniencial changes" it will turn out like Archeage did, Once a great game Destroyed by the developers greed. Please stop killing the game. There's no way this company struggles financially with the ammount of players playing this game.
To argue the pay to win aspect. Yes this is flat out pay to win.
If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience. To the very least they could slightly fix this by adding a way to earn crowns WAY easier then it is possible today. THEN it would be "convenience" i suppose, (still leaning towards pay to win tho)
Again, Please dont ruin your game devs. This is what happened to Archeage with trion being greedy and also what happens to other korean mmos.
you are so clueless i don't know where to start.
you have no idea what pay to win is.
lots of FREE PLAYING PLAYERS don't mean the game is making money.
you have no business sense.
1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@daniolio90
While you bring an important issue to our attention, unfortunately using the phrase "pay to win" almost assures your topic will not get the attention and traction it needs. Because too many people are too fussy about what exactly qualifies as "pay to win" the point will go over their heads and they will waste time arguing about (or denying the fact) that this game is fundamentally littered with problematic mictrotransactions. What I instead focus on is pointing out the predatory nature of the microtransactions in this game as a whole, because that is indisputable at this point and has gotten steadily worse over the past several years.
Unfortunately, predatory microtransactions do not kill games. The executives introduce them because they are extremely effective at making money. And of course they would be - they are designed to pray on human universals and our very psychology. Predatory mictrotransactions are a standard design feature of many, many major publishers these days. Many are so acclimated to it (or are too young to know any better) that they don't even notice it, much less recognize it for the problem it is. ESO is really the only game I play that has them, so it's a problem that flew under MY radar until relatively recently. I allowed ESO to be my sole exception to boycotting any game with microtransactions because of the quality of story/art/lore content. But after Zenimax put bloody skill lines in the cash shop after adding skill points in as well, I did a double take and have been doing a lot of thinking about it. And I'm bloody angry about the entire ordeal. So should everyone else, if they are actually paying attention to what has been happening.
Here are just a few of the things this game does that are hallmarks of predatory microtransaction models:- Daily login rewards to instill fear of "missing out" and psychologically manipulate players into playing daily (and, of course, being slammed with the cash shop pop-up in the process)
- Creating a new feature called "housing" and then selling cash only houses for more than double the price of the game itself
- Introducing gambling with randomized reward boxes and later introducing items that can only be bought with currency obtained from said gambling
- Refusing to amend a misleading description on outfit slots so that it is explicit that purchased outfit slots are for a single character only
- Transforming events that celebrate content packs into pushes to the cash shop by introducing event tickets and so many event ticket items that it is no longer possible to get all of said items by just playing the game
- Adding more and more ways to bypass time investments in the game itself into the cash shop, such as accelerating riding lessons, research times for crafting, skill points, and even skill lines
I could go on. And it will only get worse from here.Edited by Starlock on August 29, 2019 2:09PM1 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Chicharron wrote: »daniolio90 wrote: »If you could buy a weapon, best weapon in game, thats pay to win for sure. U can get that same weapon by doing trails/craft, but it will take time. THIS is the same got dam thing but with skills. There is literally no difference. ANY pay to win is for the sake of convenience.
What is the difference between level up the mages guild skill line in 1 minute or 3 hours?
What is the difference between researching every trait in 15 minutes or 11 months?
The advantage is pretty obvious but let me make it a little lower IQ. If you don't have to grind for 3 hours then that is 3 hours you don't spend doing other things in game. If i can pay to get all that done in 1 minute and then I can go and do whatever I want in game, you are paying for an advantage, which is pay to win by definition.
There is no such thing as an advantage in a non-competitive setting.
And you've already researched all that on another character already. So not having to switch characters is pay to win now?
.:crazy:.Beta tester November 20130 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wispsister wrote: »
It would be P2W if they made those skill lines locked behind a paywall. Which they are not.Rave the Histborn wrote: »WTF are you even talking about? I'm not trying to be mean here, but they buffed skills that were under powered and unused for YEARS and then started selling the skill lines those skills are from for cash. That is a pretty heavy indication they are going there.
What they did was for money, of course because they are a company and kind of need to make money, but it is for convenience more than anything. You, right now, can have those sweet, sweet buffed skills for -- you guessed it! -- free.
The second they ACTUALLY lock those skills behind a 3k crown purchase, as in the ONLY way you could get those skills is by purchase (which is how it'd be if it was P2W btw), then you can poke them with your pitchforks all you want. Stop condemning them for giving players the option to skip boring grinds they may have already done numerous times. That's all it is, a shortcut. An option. If you don't want to pay, then you don't HAVE TO. Ya'll crying so hard over nothing.
Pay for convenience as you shills keep putting it is still pay to win. If the game is meant for you to unlock the items in game and you can instead pay for them it is pay to win.
You dont need to lock anything, look at Elder Scrolls Blades, you need to pay to unlock chests for gear but they keep the chests on such a long unlock time that they are trying to force you to buy keys.
Were not crying over nothing, but I can see after the 10min play time you have why you'd be ok with buying all your stuff. Why is it ok to buff skills that havent been used IN YEARS and suddenly make them the meta dps skills while also selling them for $$$?
I can get those skills for free but they aren't instant and paying for them gives an obvious advantage. That's pay to win sorry.1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?
That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.
Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.
Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.
I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.
P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.
You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.
No. This is pay to win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.
You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.
At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.
If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.
At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.
Why does it matter to you?
Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.
Nothing to see here folks! Someone’s just confused that you can STILL PUT IN THE EFFORT without buying the skill lines!
You can but most people, like you, I imagine will be less inclined to. Have fun though when you go into those vet dlcs with some dude that bought everything with crowns and pulls 5k dps and has no idea why.
I'm not confused, I think you're missing the key point that "you can STILL PUT IN THE EFFORT without buying the skill lines!" Which means that if you can do that but they offer the option to pay for it in game it is pay to win.
I think you're stuck on the "win" part and the bigger point is the part where you pay for it. Pay to win.0 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
The ability to not have to grind those skills again, that's pretty obvious there bud.MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level? So for someone who found all the sky shards, makes a level one character, doesn't that character have what ever number of skill points?
That does give an edge to someone who starts a new character and doesn't do that.
Not saying right or wrong, but to get an edge where you don't have to "work" for it gives you a benefit of someone who doesn't.
Pay to Win, Convenience to Win, same thing. As Bethesda has proven time and time and time again, meanings of names change, so Pay for Convenience for many people is just Pay to Win now. It does work both ways. If companies can change what a name or meaning is, people can do the same.
I believe in today's age, Pay to Win means paying real money where you don't have to "work" for it in game.
P2W = paying for something you can't obtain in-game, or that is extremely difficult to obtain in-game.
You can still unlock all these skill lines in a few hours if you don't want to pay for them. I couldn't care less if someone got their skill points on a new character a few days before me.
No. This is pay to win.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers.
You can unlock all these skill lines in a few hours yes, you can't max them out in a few hours. It's not the same thing.
You don't need them maxed out. You just need specific skills from them. You also don't need all those sky shards if you don't craft on the character. And you can certainly power level them all in a few hours.
At the end of the day, whether you can take your new character raiding or PvPing today or in a few days is irrelevant. You're not losing anything.
If you plan on actually being viable in PVE or PVP, yes, those guild lines need to be maxed out. You can power level them in a few hours per guild line, not a few hours total.
At the end of the day it does matter, just not to you apparently.
Why does it matter to you?
Cuz I put in the effort to be good and I'd rather not see it go pay to win.
Nothing to see here folks! Someone’s just confused that you can STILL PUT IN THE EFFORT without buying the skill lines!
You can but most people, like you, I imagine will be less inclined to. Have fun though when you go into those vet dlcs with some dude that bought everything with crowns and pulls 5k dps and has no idea why.
I'm not confused, I think you're missing the key point that "you can STILL PUT IN THE EFFORT without buying the skill lines!" Which means that if you can do that but they offer the option to pay for it in game it is pay to win.
I think you're stuck on the "win" part and the bigger point is the part where you pay for it. Pay to win.
I ain’t even going to bother loosing my braincells, I’d rather keep them thanks1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?
The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.
Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.
He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.
Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.
It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.1 -
ArenGesus✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »What do you win by paying to unlock skill lines you've already unlocked?
By making a new character that will have a skill line that they shouldn't get at such a low level?
The benefit is very brief only a few skill lines force a character to level up while leveling up the line.
Granted, it was suggested that the skill lines increase based on the characters level or be locked to lvl 50, however, OP is saying if you can buy a weapon in game that is P2W and as such there is nothing that compares. It really seems that unless you actually famed the Mother's Sorrow weapon yourself or crafted it yourself you are guilty of P2W. Not the best argument to make.
He's saying what if they had a weapon like that in game that you could buy and it was the best and he's asking how it's any different from buying all of the best skills now since they buffed skills to be meta dps so they could sell them. It's a fairly solid argument.
Yes, I understood what they were trying to say but that they offered an analogy that does not offer the clarification they think it does. You would have to obtain it in game first to be an appropriate comparison. Even then it is not P2W as it does not offer you an advantage over what you can obtain in game since it can be obtained in game and has to be obtained in game to be able to use it. It really is that simple.
It is 100% pay to win if the item you're saying is available in game and to purchase. How is it not pay to win if I can buy the best weapon in the game vs grinding for it? It has to by definition offer you an invite advantage in this case or it wouldn't be sold. Also imagine players obtaining the item then going to pvp with it or buying it and using it on level ones cuz they already own it on an alt. Look you can keep trying to switch it, oh guys it's only temporary, oh it's only this and that but at the end of it it is pay to win. If you're paying for convenience, a short cut, whatever you wanna call it it is paying for an ingame advantage.
Yeah, but who cares? It is temporary, so who gives a shirt? Under 50 pvp is meaningless. And anybody willing to spend money to dominate there is just a ridiculous failure and we should all be laughing at that person.5
This discussion has been closed.