Trader swap issue - EU server

agegarton

I honestly don't see a fix for this issue / these issues until Sunday.

1. You could re-run the bid cycle now based on bids that were placed before Sunday's switch. The problem then is that you'd unseat load of guilds and I do not think they have a way of refunding them for the location they are being kicked out of.

2. You can roll back, but the time for that has passed in reality. They have patched since, and I know in many circumstances it wold be almost impossible to roll back after a patch.

3. You could try to recapture the excess gold that was credited for losing a bid, but I don't think they have any way of taking gold from a guild bank. Many guilds have, by now, taken the money out and stashed it away anyway, making it an impossible task.

4. You could run bids again now, if that's even possible, but what's the benefit of that over and above leaving it until Sunday? Issues with option 1 still apply.


Frankly, I think the delay in coming back to us is because a) they don't know what went wrong and b) they don't know how to fix it. I don't think there is a fix.

Arrodisia

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Unfortunately, not all guilds got refunded extra money. Some did not get any gold back for bids, and did not get their spots, which they won. Cheers

LeinadOrarogep

3 of my 4 trading guilds I partake in were affected by the issue and could not obtain a trader.
Please do not let this thread get buried, periodically update it with new useful information so that it won’t be locked for uselessness.
We need to stick together and do not let this matter slide!

kate.georgeb16_ESO

I run a small casual social guild that likes to get a trader if we can, even though most weeks we get outbid and even if I get a trader I'm mostly funding it myself as not a lot of players list stuff. I chucked 1 million of my own cash into the guild bank and made 10 smallish bids. I got 6 mails saying I had won, and a trader showing on our home page. However someone else had the trader. Yes we have about 4 million in the guild bank now but I don't dare spend it in case I get banned for exploiting a bug.
The second guild I am in is a small trading guild. Pretty much the same thing happened to them, except that we have now lost quite a few good member because we've not had a trader two weeks in a row. The whole thing is toxic and it's making people lose interest in the game.

Mathius_Mordred

kate.georgeb16_ESO wrote: »

I run a small casual social guild that likes to get a trader if we can, even though most weeks we get outbid and even if I get a trader I'm mostly funding it myself as not a lot of players list stuff. I chucked 1 million of my own cash into the guild bank and made 10 smallish bids. I got 6 mails saying I had won, and a trader showing on our home page. However someone else had the trader. Yes we have about 4 million in the guild bank now but I don't dare spend it in case I get banned for exploiting a bug.
The second guild I am in is a small trading guild. Pretty much the same thing happened to them, except that we have now lost quite a few good member because we've not had a trader two weeks in a row. The whole thing is toxic and it's making people lose interest in the game.

I shouldn't worry about the cash, leave it for your next bidding session, if they are going to start banning people for their own fook up then it will cost them a lot more than a few hundred million imaginary gold, it will cost them real money as people cancel subs and go play something else.

Bosov

kate.georgeb16_ESO wrote: »

I run a small casual social guild that likes to get a trader if we can, even though most weeks we get outbid and even if I get a trader I'm mostly funding it myself as not a lot of players list stuff. I chucked 1 million of my own cash into the guild bank and made 10 smallish bids. I got 6 mails saying I had won, and a trader showing on our home page. However someone else had the trader. Yes we have about 4 million in the guild bank now but I don't dare spend it in case I get banned for exploiting a bug.
The second guild I am in is a small trading guild. Pretty much the same thing happened to them, except that we have now lost quite a few good member because we've not had a trader two weeks in a row. The whole thing is toxic and it's making people lose interest in the game.

Not spending it because the risk of being banned. Where is your moral.. what about not spending it because it is wrong!

Joke.. i predict that your guild gold will be removed while the people who bought all mats on the server will be allowed to keep the mats. Worst case they might get a 1 week suspension or something...

SantieClaws

Well this one can only hope that this is also the team responsible for sending out the twitch crates. It was nice that time we each got between 9 and 30 of them accidentally. Also if all of them had 4 times the things in them in future that would be good too.

Trying to find a bright spot in an increasingly sinking situation ...

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

DonTomas

tahol10069 wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Not every guild. Or course it is tempting to believe that every guild is now rolling in exploit money, but no. Why would our GM, or me, lie about this? I'm already fuming, I don't need someone come and calling me a liar. SOME guilds got 4 times their bid back. Some guilds, not all.

What part of "we won the bid" you don't understand? We won the bid. There is nothing to return. Then someone managed to hire the trader, even if it was our trader. It was signed as our trader, our guild could see it as our trader, but the trader wouldn't list our stuff. Or course not, because someone managed to hire the trader for 10k. And we did not get the money back. I'm sorry but if I try to go simpler I might have to resort to crayons next and I have no idea how to manage that in internet.

To my understanding there was a hotfix patch last night, which ended us in the situation with no trader and no money for good.

I think when you have won the bidding, you got no payback.
So if you have placed one bid and won that one, no payback, but through a glitch in the system, other players could just hire all and every trader, even those that you (and I) have been bidding for and that the system had told us that we have won the bidding for. Bitter pill: as you have won a trader, you could not hire a second one for a longer time. Most of the cases you ended up with no trader (like me). Really bad luck, lost money and no trader.

BUT if you lost that single bidding or you used the new system to place more bids (that you have lost), you got multiple refunds per bidding, the best guess would be four times, after what I have read here in the forums.

The big ethical question is now:
For a small guild (ok, we are 490+, but we play casual, no trading guild) that has lost the one successful bidding and (!) the trader, is it maybe a fair compensation that they got some more money out?
And when does it become unfair? 10 Million, more?

And perhaps it would be a good idea in general to limit trade Imperiums with hundreds of millions in their bank accounts - and don’t tell me that it can‘t be done, their would be many ways to ensure that not always the same guilds hold the traders in Craglorn just because pilled up these massive amounts of gold...

Just my 2 cents, as usual...

Thorvarg

DonTomas wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Not every guild. Or course it is tempting to believe that every guild is now rolling in exploit money, but no. Why would our GM, or me, lie about this? I'm already fuming, I don't need someone come and calling me a liar. SOME guilds got 4 times their bid back. Some guilds, not all.

What part of "we won the bid" you don't understand? We won the bid. There is nothing to return. Then someone managed to hire the trader, even if it was our trader. It was signed as our trader, our guild could see it as our trader, but the trader wouldn't list our stuff. Or course not, because someone managed to hire the trader for 10k. And we did not get the money back. I'm sorry but if I try to go simpler I might have to resort to crayons next and I have no idea how to manage that in internet.

To my understanding there was a hotfix patch last night, which ended us in the situation with no trader and no money for good.

If you lost that single bidding or you used the new system to place more bids (that you have lost), you got multiple refunds per bidding, the best guess would be four times, after what I have read here in the forums.

The biggest payback was around 3 billion gold, another got 1.3 billions. That is much more than 4 times the bid.

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

That is my point of view.

Gariele

Tbh I’m worried about bidding this week. I have 4 Guilds I’m bidding on and had 40bids in on Sunday. I was able to secure 3/4 with 10K pick ups and my main got locked and couldn’t grab one.

Now if I bid and ZOS starts tracking the gold does it look like I’m using the gold from the refunds. With how this has been handled I don’t dare chance my account getting suspended or at worst terminated due to their way of handling things

Arrodisia

Thorvarg wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Not every guild. Or course it is tempting to believe that every guild is now rolling in exploit money, but no. Why would our GM, or me, lie about this? I'm already fuming, I don't need someone come and calling me a liar. SOME guilds got 4 times their bid back. Some guilds, not all.

What part of "we won the bid" you don't understand? We won the bid. There is nothing to return. Then someone managed to hire the trader, even if it was our trader. It was signed as our trader, our guild could see it as our trader, but the trader wouldn't list our stuff. Or course not, because someone managed to hire the trader for 10k. And we did not get the money back. I'm sorry but if I try to go simpler I might have to resort to crayons next and I have no idea how to manage that in internet.

To my understanding there was a hotfix patch last night, which ended us in the situation with no trader and no money for good.

If you lost that single bidding or you used the new system to place more bids (that you have lost), you got multiple refunds per bidding, the best guess would be four times, after what I have read here in the forums.

The biggest payback was around 3 billion gold, another got 1.3 billions. That is much more than 4 times the bid.

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

That is my point of view.

One guild getting 3 billion gold? what did they bid 10 x 75+million? No spot in the game is worth that. Do we have any links to it or screenshots anywhere?

LeinadOrarogep

Note that the team found the time to post about the Dragonhold event... but stayed mum on the issue at hand.

Thorvarg

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Thorvarg wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Not every guild. Or course it is tempting to believe that every guild is now rolling in exploit money, but no. Why would our GM, or me, lie about this? I'm already fuming, I don't need someone come and calling me a liar. SOME guilds got 4 times their bid back. Some guilds, not all.

What part of "we won the bid" you don't understand? We won the bid. There is nothing to return. Then someone managed to hire the trader, even if it was our trader. It was signed as our trader, our guild could see it as our trader, but the trader wouldn't list our stuff. Or course not, because someone managed to hire the trader for 10k. And we did not get the money back. I'm sorry but if I try to go simpler I might have to resort to crayons next and I have no idea how to manage that in internet.

To my understanding there was a hotfix patch last night, which ended us in the situation with no trader and no money for good.

If you lost that single bidding or you used the new system to place more bids (that you have lost), you got multiple refunds per bidding, the best guess would be four times, after what I have read here in the forums.

The biggest payback was around 3 billion gold, another got 1.3 billions. That is much more than 4 times the bid.

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

That is my point of view.

One guild getting 3 billion gold? what did they bid 10 x 80+million. No spot in the game is worth that. Do we have any links to it or screenshots anywhere?

Guildleaders who "own" several guilds got this big refundings.

Fiktius

Gariele wrote: »

Tbh I’m worried about bidding this week. I have 4 Guilds I’m bidding on and had 40bids in on Sunday. I was able to secure 3/4 with 10K pick ups and my main got locked and couldn’t grab one.

Now if I bid and ZOS starts tracking the gold does it look like I’m using the gold from the refunds. With how this has been handled I don’t dare chance my account getting suspended or at worst terminated due to their way of handling things

You are not the only one thinking that, I had this exactly the same thing in my mind.
If ZOS really do let this glitch gold remain in guild banks of these guilds, that will affect bidding prices as well.
And that does not make me feel any better due I'm aware that in my bank I have extra gold which was placed there by broken bidding system, there are my guilds own legit gold and there are also donations of my members.
And worst part is that guild history is entirely closed, so I can't see donations, even tho I know they are stored on server side.
My guilds also are not at bad spots, so their bidding prices aren't really low either. And what now when I'm aware that several guilds got massive amount of gold via glitch? If I want to defend my spots and create multiple bids and increase these amounts, do I have risk of getting banned?

@ZOS_GinaBruno Are we going to hear any statement regarding this issue before weekend? Knowing what happened at last Sunday, I don't want to wait till Sunday and risk opportunity to place bids due horrible PC EU server performance.

Arrodisia

Thorvarg wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Thorvarg wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Not every guild. Or course it is tempting to believe that every guild is now rolling in exploit money, but no. Why would our GM, or me, lie about this? I'm already fuming, I don't need someone come and calling me a liar. SOME guilds got 4 times their bid back. Some guilds, not all.

What part of "we won the bid" you don't understand? We won the bid. There is nothing to return. Then someone managed to hire the trader, even if it was our trader. It was signed as our trader, our guild could see it as our trader, but the trader wouldn't list our stuff. Or course not, because someone managed to hire the trader for 10k. And we did not get the money back. I'm sorry but if I try to go simpler I might have to resort to crayons next and I have no idea how to manage that in internet.

To my understanding there was a hotfix patch last night, which ended us in the situation with no trader and no money for good.

If you lost that single bidding or you used the new system to place more bids (that you have lost), you got multiple refunds per bidding, the best guess would be four times, after what I have read here in the forums.

The biggest payback was around 3 billion gold, another got 1.3 billions. That is much more than 4 times the bid.

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

That is my point of view.

One guild getting 3 billion gold? what did they bid 10 x 80+million. No spot in the game is worth that. Do we have any links to it or screenshots anywhere?

Guildleaders who "own" several guilds got this big refundings.

You said it as a singular payout. So naturally, multiple leaders aren't a single payout

Bosov

Thorvarg wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Thorvarg wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Our GM just had sent a message telling we lost our trader for good after todays patch. And we lost the money we bidded too.

Mind you, we won the bid.

But then someone else managed to snatch the trader from under our noses. Now we have no money and no trader. We lost a crapton of money because we had lost the bid for two weeks in a row, and needed to rise the bid. And now this happened.

Something doesn't add up here, people were refunded 4 times the bids which is one of the problems encountered and a topic of hot discussion in this thread. You may have no trader but you should not have no money.

Not every guild. Or course it is tempting to believe that every guild is now rolling in exploit money, but no. Why would our GM, or me, lie about this? I'm already fuming, I don't need someone come and calling me a liar. SOME guilds got 4 times their bid back. Some guilds, not all.

What part of "we won the bid" you don't understand? We won the bid. There is nothing to return. Then someone managed to hire the trader, even if it was our trader. It was signed as our trader, our guild could see it as our trader, but the trader wouldn't list our stuff. Or course not, because someone managed to hire the trader for 10k. And we did not get the money back. I'm sorry but if I try to go simpler I might have to resort to crayons next and I have no idea how to manage that in internet.

To my understanding there was a hotfix patch last night, which ended us in the situation with no trader and no money for good.

If you lost that single bidding or you used the new system to place more bids (that you have lost), you got multiple refunds per bidding, the best guess would be four times, after what I have read here in the forums.

The biggest payback was around 3 billion gold, another got 1.3 billions. That is much more than 4 times the bid.

Thorvarg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, just letting you know that we are working on a resolution to this issue from yesterday. More details to come as we continue to investigate, stay tuned...

I think it is well understandable who has received excessive repayments. These guilds / guild leaders, of course, the sum must be deducted again. Once they have spent this money, and thus exploited intentionally, they should be banned permanently and their assets confiscated.

That is my point of view.

One guild getting 3 billion gold? what did they bid 10 x 80+million. No spot in the game is worth that. Do we have any links to it or screenshots anywhere?

Guildleaders who "own" several guilds got this big refundings.

And atleast on EU every big trader guild has multiple smaller guilds in their "alliance". One main 100k a week guild in Craglorn, 75k in Deshaan, 50k Deshaan and some spread around Wayrest and new DLC areas. Some guildleaders cant even be in all their own guilds on their main account.

reoskit

DonTomas wrote: »

And perhaps it would be a good idea in general to limit trade Imperiums with hundreds of millions in their bank accounts - and don’t tell me that it can‘t be done, their would be many ways to ensure that not always the same guilds hold the traders in Craglorn just because pilled up these massive amounts of gold...

Just my 2 cents, as usual...

Prior to Sunday, money didn't just materialize in guild banks.

We work for the gold reserves we have. Warchests generate over time thanks to a combination of supportive guildies, active fundraising, donations, strategic bidding, etc... None of this happens over night; none of us started with the reserves we have.

So please explain: why should a guild that worked hard and planned for the future be penalized and denied a kiosk?

ValueDrift

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

what did they bid 10 x 75+million? No spot in the game is worth that.

No need to bid this much, presumably you get the bid back as many times as you made bids, you're using 4 as multiplier, but I've heard of bigger multipliers than that. Perhaps the multiplier is however many bids you had refunded, so up to a maximum of 10.

reoskit

Fiktius wrote: »

And worst part is that guild history is entirely closed, so I can't see donations, even tho I know they are stored on server side.

Wait - @Fiktius - last I knew it was just sales data. Did they turn off withdrawals/deposits, too?

Edit: Confirmed by one of our officers on NA.

Fiktius

reoskit wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

And worst part is that guild history is entirely closed, so I can't see donations, even tho I know they are stored on server side.

Wait - @Fiktius - last I knew it was just sales data. Did they turn off withdrawals/deposits, too?

Yes. If I open bank activity log, the page is blank. There's absolutely nothing.

Arrodisia

ValueDrift wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

what did they bid 10 x 75+million? No spot in the game is worth that.

No need to bid this much, presumably you get the bid back as many times as you made bids, you're using 4 as multiplier, but I've heard of bigger multipliers than that. Perhaps the multiplier is however many bids you had refunded, so up to a maximum of 10.

75m x 10 =750m x4 =3 billion. So I figured that 4x's in already when I said it, and I'll say it again. No one would bid that amount for any spot in the game, and certainly not 10 times imho.

Delpi

How much time should pass before we get an official answer?

Thorvarg

Delpi wrote: »

How much time should pass before we get an official answer?

Consider your experience with ZOS and answer the question yourself.

martinhpb16_ESO

I heard they buying this stuff in bulk

Arrodisia

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

I heard they buying this stuff in bulk

Well, I hope. They plan on giving us some, because we're certainly in need of lubrication since this patch released.

DonTomas

reoskit wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

And perhaps it would be a good idea in general to limit trade Imperiums with hundreds of millions in their bank accounts - and don’t tell me that it can‘t be done, their would be many ways to ensure that not always the same guilds hold the traders in Craglorn just because pilled up these massive amounts of gold...

Just my 2 cents, as usual...

Prior to Sunday, money didn't just materialize in guild banks.

We work for the gold reserves we have. Warchests generate over time thanks to a combination of supportive guildies, active fundraising, donations, strategic bidding, etc... None of this happens over night; none of us started with the reserves we have.

So please explain: why should a guild that worked hard and planned for the future be penalized and denied a kiosk?

I am not sure that capitalism is the best system in the world, not any more...it could be, but when the players lack humanity, it could be very much like hell.

With that I refer to the real world - and as this is game (=fantasy), would you please allow me to dream?

martinhpb16_ESO

DonTomas wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

And perhaps it would be a good idea in general to limit trade Imperiums with hundreds of millions in their bank accounts - and don’t tell me that it can‘t be done, their would be many ways to ensure that not always the same guilds hold the traders in Craglorn just because pilled up these massive amounts of gold...

Just my 2 cents, as usual...

Prior to Sunday, money didn't just materialize in guild banks.

We work for the gold reserves we have. Warchests generate over time thanks to a combination of supportive guildies, active fundraising, donations, strategic bidding, etc... None of this happens over night; none of us started with the reserves we have.

So please explain: why should a guild that worked hard and planned for the future be penalized and denied a kiosk?

I am not sure that capitalism is the best system in the world, not any more...it could be, but when the players lack humanity, it could be very much like hell.

With that I refer to the real world - and as this is game (=fantasy), would you please allow me to dream?

If Zos had not of given us a cut-throat system we could afford to be altrusitic. However especially with multi-bidding I truly fear for smaller guilds and the spirit of the community as a whole

DragonRacer

LeinadOrarogep wrote: »

Note that the team found the time to post about the Dragonhold event... but stayed mum on the issue at hand.

Marketing person here.

Not to apologize for the massive bungling and total lack of real, meaty response from ZOS on this issue... but the vast majority of those types of marketing tweets/Facebook posts/other social media notifications are set up in advance and scheduled to auto-publish on their own at a set day and time. There likely was not someone who, instead of working on a response to this issue, decided to instead type up and submit that marketing tweet today. That thing was likely sitting in a pipeline waiting for its pre-assigned day/time to hit and off it went.

Unfortunate timing, obviously, especially for the optics it creates.

tahol10069

Never mind.

SirAndy

SantieClaws wrote: »

Well this one can only hope that this is also the team responsible for sending out the twitch crates. It was nice that time we each got between 9 and 30 of them accidentally. Also if all of them had 4 times the things in them in future that would be good too.
Trying to find a bright spot in an increasingly sinking situation ...

Darn, now ZOS is going to fire all their unpaid interns over this ...