Stam/mag version for each weapon type

Gatviper

Hybrids would be perfectly viable, if ability numbers were using combined magicka + stamina, as well as combined spell damage + weapon damage for calculations. Of course, if that were a thing nobody probably would be playing pure-sided builds anymore, seeing as full-powered hybrid playstyle would offer more benefits than either side on it's own.

TheShadowScout

All they really do to make hybrids viable again is rethink the attribute effects. Add some "diminishing returns" mechanic, so that those who split their attributes are still within shouting range of those who specialize in one stat alone in damage output.

Resource of course is a different matter, there such softcaps would not be needed... since the hybrids split the draw from pools anyhow.

Then it would be a choice between the added flexibility, and added specialization.

They could even do it without having to redo all the current damage numbers, simply by keeping the effect at the current levels, add diminishing results from a higher ability score onward, and just give out a heap of extra ability points as "rebalancing" alteration, letting people spend those new points either insto specializing even further (at much lover effect) or in hybridization!

But I still think allowing a magica based skill line for physical weapons is a bad idea.
Much better to add more weapons for both sides! Way more fun too. Also more farming to get the ones you want, sure, but... that could be dealt with (cough, BoE, cough)

Tipsy

Gatviper wrote: »

Hybrids would be perfectly viable, if ability numbers were using combined magicka + stamina, as well as combined spell damage + weapon damage for calculations. Of course, if that were a thing nobody probably would be playing pure-sided builds anymore, seeing as full-powered hybrid playstyle would offer more benefits than either side on it's own.

I like your thinking,Gatviper.. Maybe if pure builds & hybrids both had their perks,advantages and disadvantages..
the choice between hybrid and pure build would be more interesting too?

And yes ,I guess players that split the draw from pools are considered the Hybrids
From a pure min/max standpoint,you gimp yourself as a hybrid as things stand now.
As you can't just measure up in any meaningful way to a pure build.
For Hybrids an alternate version of weapon skills would allow them more choice.As they have new options to synergise it with their prefered playstyle.
Hybridization on its own is a whole different topic though,while it is one issue touching this topic as well,I believe.
I do not think there is 1 answer to the problem,like rethinking attribute effects.It needs to go much deeper than that I think;
providing new synergy options for hybrid builds, keeping all the possible synergies in the game in mind when it comes to matching them up for your final build.Maybe adding some perks with advantages and disadvantages to both pure and hybrid builds,as suggested earlier.
As it is now,most stam players will indeed pick weapon skills and cant really play around too much with class skills,or use most of them in an effective manner.
While mag builds have the class skills but cant really choose any other weapon than a staff if you judge things for its usefulness in resource management.
So appealing choices(the weapon they prefer)no - usefull choices,yea but shoe-horned in a way that it works,but often not with the choices you'd want to make.(on the other hand,if staff is the only true viable mag weapon option,is it a choice really?)
Many players go out of their way to even choose a race that is useful(smart from a min/max perspective) & synergises well with the build setup they have in mind
,not the race that appeals most to them,or more relevant to this topic;choosing the weapon they truly love.Because it isnt viable as a hybrid in current game version,since the pools get split if you go hybrid. Also split pools,is that actually sufficient on its own to say ;that is a hybrid worthy of its name?
This bias of overal class skills -magicka skills /weapons-stam skills ,leaves both stam/mag players wanting for more &
the stam players wishing they had more class skills to play with,while it leaves the mag users wanting for more when it comes to weapon choice.
I don't think adding more new kinds mag weapons or stam weapons is the answer for now, as things stand now;
if the source of the problem lies in the way things are set up itself,thus adding total new weapons is a bit soon
Instead, providing more options to play with for existing weapons(and class skills) is the answer I think(or rather a step in the right direction)

TheShadowScout

Tipsy wrote: »

And yes ,I guess players that split the draw from pools are considered the Hybrids
From a pure min/max standpoint,you gimp yourself as a hybrid as things stand now.
As you can't just measure up in any meaningful way to a pure build.

...and I hate that, very much so.

And I really wish there would be machanics changes that would gimp all the over-specialized characters and make things balanced between them and hybrids again...

I liked things with Softcaps, where you started getting diminishing results for putting all in one stat, and thgus were much better served with a balanced split.
These days... well, characters with all 64 attribute points in their damage stat and making up with prismatic armor runes for the rest rule, sadly enough. I would much rather see a system that at least heavily penalized players who don't put a decent amopunt of AP into their Health, and have diminishing results for the damage stat in either case. I mean, if people were to split... a 32/32/0 split compared to a 21/22/21 is far less behind then a 32/32/0 to a 64/0/0... add even some diminishing results mechanics, and the hybrids would be only maybe 20% behind the more specialized builds, and make up for that with more flexibility and two resource pools to draw on...

I'd like that.

Still wouldn't want pure magica characters to use swords, or pure stamina characters cast a firework of spells, but I definitely -would- like to see the option to play hybrid characters become more viable again!

Ardaghion

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ardaghion wrote: »

Pretty silly that a stamina DK has to mostly use general weapon skills and guild skills since you have a hard time restoring magicka to power the class skills.

Not so silly.
That's exactly how its supposed to be!
"Szamina characters" are the warriors after all. They are -supposed- to mostly use their weapons to fight, while -magica characters- are the mages which are supposed to use a wide range of magical attacks to fight.

But as I keep saying. It -would- be nice to have a bit more choices.

No, it is silly, you are basically arguing that magicka users get class skills, while stamina users get weapon skills. What's the point of having class skills on a character if they can't be used? Where's the diversity if you only use weapon skills, available to all classes, on a stamina user or are forced to choose a class just because that class has more stamina skills or stamina morphs?

My DK is a "knight" isn't it? Wouldn't it make sense that most of of the class skills should be stamina based? Sure I could make a magDK but then I'm a knight running around with a staff. Then I'm really just another kind of sorcerer, just with different magick skills.

For instance, I was playing around with a StamDK build where I didn't use any magick, I guess I didn't need to make it a DK since I'm only using Venomous claw, I could have also used Noxious Breath but I didn't, I could have use one of the DK Ultimates.

Where's the class identity when there are 15 class skills and only 2 are stamina based? What's the point of having a stamina anything if that character will just be using weapon skills, outside of a few class passives?

CynicK

I have thought may times there should be at least a magica weapon that was mele because think of necromancer for example that does not have permanent pets and has a mix of close quarters and long range skills but nothing to hold enemies at distance you end up close to the enemies, to me a 2 hander makes more sense but i wanted to make him a magica character and there is nothing magica for when you are close, you can still use the staff but it feels odd to me.
I have no idea of what a close quarters magica weapon could be though.

TheShadowScout

Ardaghion wrote: »

No, it is silly, you are basically arguing that magicka users get class skills, while stamina users get weapon skills.

Yup, in a nutshell.
Stamina characters = Warriors, are supposed to rely more on weapon skills.
Magica characters = Spellcasters, are supposed to have a wide range of mystic skills.

Ardaghion wrote: »

What's the point of having class skills on a character if they can't be used?

They can be used.
Right out of the tutorial, all skills are equal.
The difference is what you decide to specialize in with your character... either the weapon skills and stamina, or the class skills and magica.
Whatever you don't specialize in will be less effective, sure... but still useful in many ways. Not all of it, certainly, not in a competetive way... but still, enough of it.

Ardaghion wrote: »

Where's the diversity if you only use weapon skills, available to all classes, on a stamina user or are forced to choose a class just because that class has more stamina skills or stamina morphs?

Where is the -diversity- if every build got access to all skills equally???
Diversity comes from the -difference-, so... "build diversity" means many -different- builds, it does not nean each build having access to all options to make each of them capable of exactly the same all across the board.

And that is why I dislike the idea. Because I -like- it when differences matter, when differences mean something, when everyone is a little different. I think that enriches the game (and life for that matter). Otherwise I'd be playing a game with premade characters where everyone who picks the same premade is the same...

Ardaghion wrote: »

My DK is a "knight" isn't it? Wouldn't it make sense that most of of the class skills should be stamina based?

...what's next, asking for nightblades to be wielded by someone else because they are a "blade"? Or templars being locked into some temple? Though I kinda agree the name was not the best choice and feels a little silly for anyone playing them as magica "pyromancer"...

On a serious note - you have taken note of how ESO is set up? Each class being just a base that combined with free weapon and armor selection can be built up in many, many ways... there are no "stamina classes", because each class must be a viable base for both builds. And they are. Just in a different way.

Ardaghion wrote: »

Where's the class identity when there are 15 class skills and only 2 are stamina based? What's the point of having a stamina anything if that character will just be using weapon skills, outside of a few class passives?

Answered your own question there.
The class identity for stamina characters are in those class skills that are useful for stamina play, either through a stamina morph, or through a magica use that is not dependent on magica stat (DK Dragon Blood or Nightblade invisibility for example), and in the passives.
Because... the stamina version is the -Warrior- who depends on their trusty weapon, but due to the mystical vestige status still has a few magical tricks up their sleeve.

If you -want- to throw all the class skills... go magica!

Ardaghion

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Ardaghion wrote: »

No, it is silly, you are basically arguing that magicka users get class skills, while stamina users get weapon skills.

Yup, in a nutshell.
Stamina characters = Warriors, are supposed to rely more on weapon skills.
Magica characters = Spellcasters, are supposed to have a wide range of mystic skills.

Ardaghion wrote: »

What's the point of having class skills on a character if they can't be used?

They can be used.
Right out of the tutorial, all skills are equal.
The difference is what you decide to specialize in with your character... either the weapon skills and stamina, or the class skills and magica.
Whatever you don't specialize in will be less effective, sure... but still useful in many ways. Not all of it, certainly, not in a competetive way... but still, enough of it.

Ardaghion wrote: »

Where's the diversity if you only use weapon skills, available to all classes, on a stamina user or are forced to choose a class just because that class has more stamina skills or stamina morphs?

Where is the -diversity- if every build got access to all skills equally???
Diversity comes from the -difference-, so... "build diversity" means many -different- builds, it does not nean each build having access to all options to make each of them capable of exactly the same all across the board.

And that is why I dislike the idea. Because I -like- it when differences matter, when differences mean something, when everyone is a little different. I think that enriches the game (and life for that matter). Otherwise I'd be playing a game with premade characters where everyone who picks the same premade is the same...

Ardaghion wrote: »

My DK is a "knight" isn't it? Wouldn't it make sense that most of of the class skills should be stamina based?

...what's next, asking for nightblades to be wielded by someone else because they are a "blade"? Or templars being locked into some temple? Though I kinda agree the name was not the best choice and feels a little silly for anyone playing them as magica "pyromancer"...

On a serious note - you have taken note of how ESO is set up? Each class being just a base that combined with free weapon and armor selection can be built up in many, many ways... there are no "stamina classes", because each class must be a viable base for both builds. And they are. Just in a different way.

Ardaghion wrote: »

Where's the class identity when there are 15 class skills and only 2 are stamina based? What's the point of having a stamina anything if that character will just be using weapon skills, outside of a few class passives?/quote]
Answered your own question there.
The class identity for stamina characters are in those class skills that are useful for stamina play, either through a stamina morph, or through a magica use that is not dependent on magica stat (DK Dragon Blood or Nightblade invisibility for example), and in the passives.
Because... the stamina version is the -Warrior- who depends on their trusty weapon, but due to the mystical vestige status still has a few magical tricks up their sleeve.

If you -want- to throw all the class skills... go magica!

There really isn't that much diversity today in this game. There are few if any viable hybrid builds, many people just build based on build guides, many of which a very similar. If I have a magicka build I have to put (almost) all my attributes in magicka and restore resources to magicka. If I have a stamina build the opposite is true.

A player shouldn't be forced to ignore magicka based class skills just because they went stamina or be forced to use a staff because they went with magicka. Those kind of choices reduce diversity, they don't increase it.

I have a large number of characters, I feel like each one is either a cookie-cutter build stuck in either the magicka or stamina track. I'd like to create a build that could use a mix of weapons, stamina class skills and magicka class skills without worrying about sustain or having to keep both resource pools compromised.

I think if you could decide, maybe through CP where resource recovery went, and how to divide it up, that would help. The other thing that would help is to get weapon or spell damage based on your max attribute.

Tipsy

Maybe alternative development paths for weapons would be better than the cookie-cutter passive tracks we have right now.
Supporting the choice for both magicka & stamina.While at the same time providing players with the tool to truly embrace class identity how they want it.


No longer having the feeling they have to follow the cookie-cutter setups of certain weapons/armor.No longer having to compromise turning their hybrid into a pure build in order to stay competetive

The cool thing with such alternative development path for weapons is that more can be added in the future with new DLC.
For example
take the return of Sai Sahan ,he might have developed new sword skills during his absence
and has a new development path for swords to teach to the vestige.
This way, there could be unique sword arts to be discovered in certain areas ,or with certain knightly orders. Long story short, more than just new areas to explore with new dlc
;deeper character customization.
Thus adding a much greater diversity than current setup..
I don't understand how anyone could argue that the current cookie-cutter setup offers greater diversity..
As this would give players the sense that all across Tamriel there is more to discover than just new areas;different techniques to be learned as well with certain cultures.
More possibilities & a deeper character customization where players can really get in touch with the identity of their class.

Sogreth

Tipsy wrote: »

In order to "play how you want"

I think this is what keeps me from getting into this game. I like that about Skyrim, I can play how I want, and use any build that I want. But ESO has quite a few limitations that do not make it very fun.

Also, what an insightful post by that ZOS member *eyeroll*

OrphanHelgen

You guys are the reason there is no identity in this game

TheShadowScout

Ardaghion wrote: »

There really isn't that much diversity today in this game. There are few if any viable hybrid builds, many people just build based on build guides, many of which a very similar. If I have a magicka build I have to put (almost) all my attributes in magicka and restore resources to magicka. If I have a stamina build the opposite is true.

And I really dislike that this is the most effective tactic available right now.
And I really wish to see some hefty penalty at least for those who put no points into their health... I mean, sure, if they want to play a glass cannon, they should be able to, but it should be -glass- indeed and not aluminium through prismatic armor enchantments... but that is another topic.

Ardaghion wrote: »

A player shouldn't be forced to ignore magicka based class skills just because they went stamina

Actually I disagree with that (no surprise there, duh)
As I kept saying... stamina characters represent those who specialize in -physical- abilities, and thus should rely less on "magical" class skills but more on -physical- warrior skills.

Now... if we started talking of giving them more -options- there... physical skill lines for martial arts, or for athletic abilities, or dirty tricks that can be used in combat... hey, I'd be all for it!

But asking for ways to let them use the exact same skills as the magica characters? That is a choice between two of the same, which makes it a meaningless choice!

Ardaghion wrote: »

or be forced to use a staff because they went with magicka.

Agreed.
I just disagree with that the solution to this annoyance should be letting them use the -same- weapons as warriors, and would ask for more magical wepaon choices instead!

Ardaghion wrote: »

Those kind of choices reduce diversity, they don't increase it.

The two things that reduce diversity are:
- having only one viable choice
- having two choices that are all the same
...so, to increase diversity... you need to add -different- choices. NOT allowing both builds to choose the same skills, but adding more different skills for each build to choose!

Ardaghion wrote: »

I have a large number of characters, I feel like each one is either a cookie-cutter build stuck in either the magicka or stamina track. I'd like to create a build that could use a mix of weapons, stamina class skills and magicka class skills without worrying about sustain or having to keep both resource pools compromised.

Same, and I have made such hybrid characters. And yeah, they perform very substandard compared to specialized ones. Still playable for story content, but... you wouldn't want to try anything more challenging I reckon.
And yeah, I wish they were at least within shouting distance in effect.

Ardaghion wrote: »

I think if you could decide, maybe through CP where resource recovery went, and how to divide it up, that would help. The other thing that would help is to get weapon or spell damage based on your max attribute.

I don't really see that as "help" rather then... erasure of the differences between buildstyles.
Like I said.
Adding more options to either side would help diversity, as it allowed people to make more choices in their character setup.
But making both sides have equal access to all the same old options... not so much, as it would make them all the same.

Tipsy

TheShadowScout wrote: »

As I kept saying... stamina characters represent those who specialize in -physical- abilities, and thus should rely less on "magical" class skills but more on -physical- warrior skills.

Ardaghion wrote: »

What's the point of having class skills on a character if they can't be used? Where's the diversity if you only use weapon skills, available to all classes, on a stamina user or are forced to choose a class just because that class has more stamina skills or stamina morphs?
My DK is a "knight" isn't it? Wouldn't it make sense that most of of the class skills should be stamina based? Sure I could make a magDK but then I'm a knight running around with a staff. Then I'm really just another kind of sorcerer

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The two things that reduce diversity are:
- having only one viable choice

Shadowscout,what you are arguing for in the first quote, gives players not even 1 choice.But a half-assed choice;
in the sense that someone who wants to play a magicka dragon knight,as a knight is forced to use a staff in order to measure up to pure mag builds.
or they have to use weapon skills mainly (+even weapons they would not want to choose)
& ignore class skills they actually like.So Surely you can see that "what you keep saying" is really the thing that reduces diversity here.
As it doesnt even provide 1 decent viable choice
& throws players in an absolute class identity crisis.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

things that reduce diversity are:
- having two choices that are all the same
...so, to increase diversity... you need to add -different- choices. NOT allowing both builds to choose the same skills, but adding more different skills for each build to choose!

They wouldn't be the same skills though,they would be entirely new development paths for the weapons in question.(opposite;increased diversity for both mag & stam builds)
With a total different application/use & the different powersource to fuel them
The battlemage/spellsword would use the sword in a different way ,for example
Adding more options to either side would help diversity, as it allows people to make more choices in their character setup,While picking the identity they really want.
And who is to say a sword is a weapon only usable in the physical sense?

Even take an axe like Wuuthrad as an example,forged with "tears of grief made of pure ebony"
An axe with the inherent ability to be deadly to elves. An effect not considered an enchantment.
So an axe with inherent magical properties...NO it cant be? A physical weapon with inherent magic?
Ofcourse it can.