Can we look at lingering hp pots?

Urusovite

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

L O L



I had to edit this, i almost forgot-the word this thread brings to mind is [ TRIGGERED ].

I wouldn't say that. I respond the same way people respond to me. If they claim I need to L2P, I only ask for evidence. Drop a few videos of some mad skills and shut me up. I will admit when I feel a player is far better than me. If they disagree and tell me why then I'm willing to discuss with them. If they just disagree without reasoning then I ask them why. You too look like you want a reaction and I don't understand why you would waste your time on a thread you aren't willing to contribute to.

Im used to seeing care bears cry about the stupidest things on this forum, reading your replies you were triggered and quite easily so! Youre begging for another nerf.

Btw. L2p

Care bears crutch on major vitality, 7th, and fury. But okay. Bye! Doesn't take a genius to see this is a nerf thread...

Lucky28

i've looked at them. they look fine to me.

Insco851

Urusovite wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

L O L



I had to edit this, i almost forgot-the word this thread brings to mind is [ TRIGGERED ].

I wouldn't say that. I respond the same way people respond to me. If they claim I need to L2P, I only ask for evidence. Drop a few videos of some mad skills and shut me up. I will admit when I feel a player is far better than me. If they disagree and tell me why then I'm willing to discuss with them. If they just disagree without reasoning then I ask them why. You too look like you want a reaction and I don't understand why you would waste your time on a thread you aren't willing to contribute to.

Im used to seeing care bears cry about the stupidest things on this forum, reading your replies you were triggered and quite easily so! Youre begging for another nerf.

Btw. L2p

Care bears crutch on major vitality, 7th, and fury. But okay. Bye! Doesn't take a genius to see this is a nerf thread...

7th and fury both got nerfed. Doubtful you see this combo going forward as well. Fury still looks pretty meta tho.

However your scope of why lingering pots need nerfed is referring to only one version and typically used on stamDK which has major mending on demand... that combined is more of the issue than MJV lingering pots.

Those pots also create sustain issues on other classes... dk? Not so much. Again the issue is really more of the meta stam class than it is the pots- in combination.

KillsAllElves

Urusovite wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

L O L



I had to edit this, i almost forgot-the word this thread brings to mind is [ TRIGGERED ].

I wouldn't say that. I respond the same way people respond to me. If they claim I need to L2P, I only ask for evidence. Drop a few videos of some mad skills and shut me up. I will admit when I feel a player is far better than me. If they disagree and tell me why then I'm willing to discuss with them. If they just disagree without reasoning then I ask them why. You too look like you want a reaction and I don't understand why you would waste your time on a thread you aren't willing to contribute to.

Im used to seeing care bears cry about the stupidest things on this forum, reading your replies you were triggered and quite easily so! Youre begging for another nerf.

Btw. L2p

Care bears crutch on major vitality, 7th, and fury. But okay. Bye! Doesn't take a genius to see this is a nerf thread...

Those sets you listed should not be in game, but yeah this is a l2p issue at hand.

I will give you free advice, keep crying for the nerf ... The more players cry, they usually get their way because the developers cave into the care bear conundrum................... Buh bye

SirMewser

Having NPD doesn't mean your points suddenly become valid, it actually means you are less valid because of what they are known to suffer from.

Sanctum74

It's funny to see how so many people critisize op, but yet have no arguement to counter other than insults. They will probably be the same people crying for nerfs next patch because their 24 man can't kill a group of 4 due to vitality pots and the mega heal buffs. Oh well you warned them, they deserve what they have coming to them

Spartabunny08

Urusovite wrote: »

Spartabunny08 wrote: »

L2p issue, move along

Pretty sure I been Xing the likes of you long before you even knew what a 5 piece was.

Is that so? Who cares about the length of time you've been "Xing"? If you're so awesome why the thread about potion? Seems you need more damage to me cause I don't have this problem. Have fun cause they buffed the lingering health pots with powdered mother of pearl. Have fun with that. Btw I make builds un X able just for people like you and I use lingering health pots. It's ok no big deal, if potions is your only problem in this game then this is a non issue. Don't forget the game is about fun no more nerf, more power... Just because you can't kill someone doesn't mean potions need to be jacked up.

idk

Urusovite wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not think lingering health potions requires Vitality so you are begin far to vague for Zos to figure out what you are talking about. Yea, we know but you are trying to talk to Zos.

Further, your stam DK is irrelevant to the discussion. Use Defile, fracture and other means to reduce the targets healing received and damage taken.

Stam dk is irrelevant to the discussion so I do not get your point. Stam dk has nothing to do with the potions but the current meta right now is a prime example of how the potions over perform. That is the only reason I brought it up.

I said Stam dk was irrelevant to the discussion. It seems odd you are calling me out for saying that yet you brought up that you play on a stam dk as though it did. Take it as a lesson learned. Do not add meaningless information to the OP as people will take it as though you think it is germane.

Regardless of that oversight in the OP, your idea is to incomplete to be considered. You are looking at one very small part of a build for a tanky build and ignoring the rest making the end result very messed up. To properly address tanky builds ability to do some decent damage one must look at the entire system involved in making those builds possible. Doing it half ass gets only half ass results, or worse.

Alpheu5

Urusovite wrote: »

Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these

You're already sacrificing resource sustain for direct survivability, plus they're one of the few counters tanks have at their disposal for Defiles and DoTs.

Vortigaunt

Urusovite wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

No.

Wait until Update 23 goes live before you start begging for healing nerfs. The damage is going to be insane.

I can't tell if you play or not. I didn't ask for a nerf to healing even though I 100% agree healing ward, regeneration, and vigor need to be reduced before live. I asked for a debuff to accompany the buff. The healing remains the same, but the damage you deal is reduced during the duration of 30% increased healing. The fact I have seen you defending the 5.1.2 healing ward change tells me you really don't know what you are talking about. Sorry not sorry.

You asked for lingering pots to get "looked at", which is just a shady way of asking for a nerf. You're not fooling anybody. We all know what a request-for-nerf post looks like.

And no, none of the heals you mentioned need to be reduced until the majority of players can see for themselves if they need to be nerfed. ZOS gave them the values they have on PTS for a reason, and from what I've seen the reason is that we are entering an insane DOT damage era.

The fact that you don't realize any of this tells me that you are a very inexperienced player.

"Inexperienced" Lol. Here, I'll post some clips of myself then you do yours. We'll see who's inexperienced. I am not in support of a dot meta but the solution to the dot meta is not over-buffing heals to compensate rendering bursty play-styles obsolete. This is indeed a nerf thread and I'm not asking it the way I am to be "shady" either. It's simply the way I talk. Lingering health pots are a carry.

Here are some of my clips btw, show me yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuVDoPlUfno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4E7fiE-GLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_WKKlKeBck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgGC67vIfcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c2-pQhY9kE

Deathlord92 wrote: »

No

This surprises me to be honest. Especially as a follower to Paradox's channel. Does the tank meta not bother you? Why do you disagree?

No_Division wrote: »

Just sit and wait to play the game first. Or use defile+better build lol.

Builds didn't used to matter so much at one point. That was back when many veteran players called the game fun and balanced at least on console.

The good old console “I record my gameplay therefore I am a god, you don’t record your gameplay therefore you are ***” argument.

Yikes bro

universal_wrath

I'm stam sorc main btw and I can see a reason why people as for vitality nerf. My stam sorc now is benifiting greatly from major vitality buff, it has 30 secs cooldown pot and that is alot imo. As sorc does not synrgize will with healing, this pot is heaven sent. If people would complain about it, I say only dk abuse it, since they already have major mending. Only 1 or 2 classes in game have easy access to major healing buff, and to nerf a component like vitality pot that can be used by everyone just because 1 class is abusing it, is ignorant. Might want to look at dk major mending easy access and healing passives if you have a problem with healing. Other classes will get slammed in the face will dk still running around with major mending.

Trancestor

Urusovite wrote: »

Lingering health pots really need to be looked at in my opinion. Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these, as well as a means to fix the tank meta. While you have the 30% increased healing from major vitality, your damage is reduced by 30% to compensate. When major vitality runs out, the debuff is gone as well. That would be a lot better and make them more of a defensive option to allow you to "reset" rather than a free 15sec god-mode to go on offense with limited risk.

I've always mained a medium sDK and been more of a small-scale/solo player, so take that as you will and be aware of how it might affect my bias. I really cannot stand the 7th/fury lingering hp cheese people can throw on and then all of a sudden be able to go toe-to-toe with the best simply because their gear setup is good.

Makes you think, is there such a thing as "the best" or are these players just the best because they use the best builds?

Slimebrow

What are HP pots? You mean potions? Most of mine are covered in cobwebs and pretty dusty. I don't need em since all classes can self heal my dood.... Why you take HP potions in the first place? :V

artal

Its just so funny to see people defending on forum something that is clearly overtuned.
Lingering is crutch, and pretty big crutch to be honest. Idk is dmg reduction by 30% solution to it but it might be pretty fair trade off.
But yea, lets just close our eyes, run 7th/fury lingering and think how awesome players we are

John_Falstaff

artal wrote: »

Its just so funny to see people defending on forum something that is clearly overtuned.
Lingering is crutch, and pretty big crutch to be honest. Idk is dmg reduction by 30% solution to it but it might be pretty fair trade off.
But yea, lets just close our eyes, run 7th/fury lingering and think how awesome players we are

7th and Fury (and Ravager, and VH) were nerfed this update. Case closed. Tanky builds have lost a great chunk of damage potential, so next patch it's time for "the best" to show they're really as good as they say they are - by leaving the harmless slow-moving turtles be instead of going at them like a bull at a gate.

artal

7th and fury were changed, i would argue that 7th is better on pts

John_Falstaff

@artal , how did you come to that? Even by looking at the stats of the set it's easy to see that old one was trivial to proc and keep uptime on, while the new one: 1. Lost 150 weapon damage (resulting in it being meager 50 weapon damage better than crafted heavy Hunding's), 2. Lost a chunk of healing (old, proc'd on cooldown, resulted in 0.63k HoT, new one is 0.35k HoT), 3. Not as readily available to everyone (and yes, not a fact that heavy stamblades will want to take Mirage morph and sacrifice snare immunity just to be able to use this set).

artal

@John_Falstaff i agree that they need to change way it proc to alow certain class easier access to it.
7th is proccing often on live thats true, but its not always in situation you need it offensively, right now its on demand with longer duration, and you pair that with 350 extra health regen. I'll take that

Lapin_Logic

universal_wrath wrote: »

I say only dk abuse it, since they already have major mending. Only 1 or 2 classes in game have easy access to major healing buff,

Omg I can hear the combat team gears smoking right now.
"Problem... not good... 7th .. fury.. dk.. vitality....... ME GOT IT.. Remove mending from DK... Push out at last patch so no roll backsies for 3 months"

universal_wrath

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I say only dk abuse it, since they already have major mending. Only 1 or 2 classes in game have easy access to major healing buff,

Omg I can hear the combat team gears smoking right now.
"Problem... not good... 7th .. fury.. dk.. vitality....... ME GOT IT.. Remove mending from DK... Push out at last patch so no roll backsies for 3 months"

They are most likely not looking at this dicussion. They more busy with creating new bugs.

I'm not accept nor denying the fact that major vitality. All i'm saying, my stam sorc need it, and unlike other classes, stam/mag sorc are supposed to be offinive, because crit surge says so. If people are asking for nerfs, there is a reason for that, and in this case, it's most likely a dk with major mending. Last point, nerfing a whole skill,ulti, set, or passive just because a certain class is abusing it is bad for the game. Before anyone starts throwing things at me claiming i'm with tanky meta, I play full medium armor stam sorc.

Insco851

universal_wrath wrote: »

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

I say only dk abuse it, since they already have major mending. Only 1 or 2 classes in game have easy access to major healing buff,

Omg I can hear the combat team gears smoking right now.
"Problem... not good... 7th .. fury.. dk.. vitality....... ME GOT IT.. Remove mending from DK... Push out at last patch so no roll backsies for 3 months"

They are most likely not looking at this dicussion. They more busy with creating new bugs.

I'm not accept nor denying the fact that major vitality. All i'm saying, my stam sorc need it, and unlike other classes, stam/mag sorc are supposed to be offinive, because crit surge says so. If people are asking for nerfs, there is a reason for that, and in this case, it's most likely a dk with major mending. Last point, nerfing a whole skill,ulti, set, or passive just because a certain class is abusing it is bad for the game. Before anyone starts throwing things at me claiming i'm with tanky meta, I play full medium armor stam sorc.

I tested this a bit in a medium armor stamDK last night. No 7th, no Ravager, no veiled, no fury... still hitting 31k resistances on de back bar with BS proc’d. 19k vigor tool tip. 5k WD. On an off race... argonian. Where exactly do you need heavy on stamDK? Minor protection, minor maim, major mending, major evasion,major vitality with pots... fun class lol.

Could also trade out s&b/minor maim for BRDW and get major expedition/major protection.

Ragnarock41

Urusovite wrote: »

Lingering health pots really need to be looked at in my opinion. Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these, as well as a means to fix the tank meta. While you have the 30% increased healing from major vitality, your damage is reduced by 30% to compensate. When major vitality runs out, the debuff is gone as well. That would be a lot better and make them more of a defensive option to allow you to "reset" rather than a free 15sec god-mode to go on offense with limited risk.

I've always mained a medium sDK and been more of a small-scale/solo player, so take that as you will and be aware of how it might affect my bias. I really cannot stand the 7th/fury lingering hp cheese people can throw on and then all of a sudden be able to go toe-to-toe with the best simply because their gear setup is good.

These pots are the real culprit behind many of the ''hurr durr this stamDK is unkillable'' builds. major vitality is an insane buff and shouldn't be given so freely in my opinion. I would say the speed version of this potion is fine but the major vitality one is basically immortality.

PS: With the reduction of major defile sources available , vitality potions will be even more ridicilous, I'm pretty sure builds that are hard to kill in this patch will be basically immortal next patch.

Dashmatt

I’ll never know if the Major Vitality potions are OP, since they are too expensive to make.

Regular lingering health potions are definitely not.

Insco851

Dashmatt wrote: »

I’ll never know if the Major Vitality potions are OP, since they are too expensive to make.

Regular lingering health potions are definitely not.

Actually they arnt... the ones with health/linger/vitality are too expensive but just linger/vitality are p cheap.

darkblue5

Just looked again, and they are still lingering. It's almost as if they're lingering.

Lapin_Logic

universal_wrath wrote: »

They are most likely not looking at this dicussion. They more busy with creating new bugs.

I'm not accept nor denying the fact that major vitality. All i'm saying, my stam sorc need it, and unlike other classes, stam/mag sorc are supposed to be offinive, because crit surge says so. If people are asking for nerfs, there is a reason for that, and in this case, it's most likely a dk with major mending. Last point, nerfing a whole skill,ulti, set, or passive just because a certain class is abusing it is bad for the game. Before anyone starts throwing things at me claiming i'm with tanky meta, I play full medium armor stam sorc.

I was more meaning the wrong messages get taken, worked on and Implimented into the Live server by the team, if anything I would like to see more availability of buffs so all classes have access to all buffs IF they build or sacrifice for it, otherwise it yet again becomes cookie cutter online where clone builds use clone skills but 😲 different particle effects. ZOS came up with the Major minor buff and equal Major Minor Debuff system.... then they forgot to let us use it effectively to counter by locking it to tiny edge cases or 1 class *cough Necro I'm looking at you cough*, in the end they never force people to play how Zos wants, i.e "stam nightblade is stealth and assassin because bad resists and healing" but there are loads of "Brawler blades" out there face tanking in fury troll king etc, Zos should give the tools and toys to the players and allow the meta to naturally evolve as FOTM builds cycle to combat last months FOTM build.

Urusovite

Trancestor wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

Lingering health pots really need to be looked at in my opinion. Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these, as well as a means to fix the tank meta. While you have the 30% increased healing from major vitality, your damage is reduced by 30% to compensate. When major vitality runs out, the debuff is gone as well. That would be a lot better and make them more of a defensive option to allow you to "reset" rather than a free 15sec god-mode to go on offense with limited risk.

I've always mained a medium sDK and been more of a small-scale/solo player, so take that as you will and be aware of how it might affect my bias. I really cannot stand the 7th/fury lingering hp cheese people can throw on and then all of a sudden be able to go toe-to-toe with the best simply because their gear setup is good.

Makes you think, is there such a thing as "the best" or are these players just the best because they use the best builds?

The PvP console community isn't very large. The greatest of our players are pretty well-known and have been around since the beginning. When everyone else was still learning the game at release, they had already figured everything out and had combat down to a science. The fact a player with the example name, X, was getting 1vXed one month ago because he/she is mediocre at the game (which is fine), who now can barely be killed/are able to perform at a much higher level ONLY because they threw on this standard build and popped a pot to boost their healing further is an issue. Thats all I'm saying. Adding costs to powerful and easily available buffs is not a bad idea. It creates a situation where you have to know when its okay to use the buff to be as efficient as possible. Getting sustain, damage, resistance, mobility, and healing all in one build is not good balance. Of course it is not limited to just stam dk.

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these

You're already sacrificing resource sustain for direct survivability, plus they're one of the few counters tanks have at their disposal for Defiles and DoTs.

Heavy is your sustain. Heavy has incredible sustain so there really isn't a sacrifice to it at all. There just isn't an overflow of resources.

universal_wrath wrote: »

I'm stam sorc main btw and I can see a reason why people as for vitality nerf. My stam sorc now is benifiting greatly from major vitality buff, it has 30 secs cooldown pot and that is alot imo. As sorc does not synrgize will with healing, this pot is heaven sent. If people would complain about it, I say only dk abuse it, since they already have major mending. Only 1 or 2 classes in game have easy access to major healing buff, and to nerf a component like vitality pot that can be used by everyone just because 1 class is abusing it, is ignorant. Might want to look at dk major mending easy access and healing passives if you have a problem with healing. Other classes will get slammed in the face will dk still running around with major mending.

I'm not going to pretend stam sorc is god-tier. But if we're being honest, every class could use a little more identity. Stam sorc does not need major mending however. You are the fastest class in the game and you guys have huge damage potential. Dk is slow and therefore is made to eat some more hits. 7th fury and lingering works really well on stam sorc too, but yes, dk can do it the best. Again, I'm not asking to nerf the major vitality buff. I'm asking to add a cost to using it. If these lingering health pots are that beneficial to you to the point you would be destroyed without them, then that is further proof they carry.

Urusovite

Dashmatt wrote: »

I’ll never know if the Major Vitality potions are OP, since they are too expensive to make.

Regular lingering health potions are definitely not.

Which is why I specifically mentioned the major vitality buff and suggested a debuff for the same duration of the major vitality. The HoT is fine in my opinion.

universal_wrath

Urusovite wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

Lingering health pots really need to be looked at in my opinion. Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these, as well as a means to fix the tank meta. While you have the 30% increased healing from major vitality, your damage is reduced by 30% to compensate. When major vitality runs out, the debuff is gone as well. That would be a lot better and make them more of a defensive option to allow you to "reset" rather than a free 15sec god-mode to go on offense with limited risk.

I've always mained a medium sDK and been more of a small-scale/solo player, so take that as you will and be aware of how it might affect my bias. I really cannot stand the 7th/fury lingering hp cheese people can throw on and then all of a sudden be able to go toe-to-toe with the best simply because their gear setup is good.

Makes you think, is there such a thing as "the best" or are these players just the best because they use the best builds?

The PvP console community isn't very large. The greatest of our players are pretty well-known and have been around since the beginning. When everyone else was still learning the game at release, they had already figured everything out and had combat down to a science. The fact a player with the example name, X, was getting 1vXed one month ago because he/she is mediocre at the game (which is fine), who now can barely be killed/are able to perform at a much higher level ONLY because they threw on this standard build and popped a pot to boost their healing further is an issue. Thats all I'm saying. Adding costs to powerful and easily available buffs is not a bad idea. It creates a situation where you have to know when its okay to use the buff to be as efficient as possible. Getting sustain, damage, resistance, mobility, and healing all in one build is not good balance. Of course it is not limited to just stam dk.

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Urusovite wrote: »

Defense at the cost of damage would be a good way to approach a rework to these

You're already sacrificing resource sustain for direct survivability, plus they're one of the few counters tanks have at their disposal for Defiles and DoTs.

Heavy is your sustain. Heavy has incredible sustain so there really isn't a sacrifice to it at all. There just isn't an overflow of resources.

universal_wrath wrote: »

I'm stam sorc main btw and I can see a reason why people as for vitality nerf. My stam sorc now is benifiting greatly from major vitality buff, it has 30 secs cooldown pot and that is alot imo. As sorc does not synrgize will with healing, this pot is heaven sent. If people would complain about it, I say only dk abuse it, since they already have major mending. Only 1 or 2 classes in game have easy access to major healing buff, and to nerf a component like vitality pot that can be used by everyone just because 1 class is abusing it, is ignorant. Might want to look at dk major mending easy access and healing passives if you have a problem with healing. Other classes will get slammed in the face will dk still running around with major mending.

I'm not going to pretend stam sorc is god-tier. But if we're being honest, every class could use a little more identity. Stam sorc does not need major mending however. You are the fastest class in the game and you guys have huge damage potential. Dk is slow and therefore is made to eat some more hits. 7th fury and lingering works really well on stam sorc too, but yes, dk can do it the best. Again, I'm not asking to nerf the major vitality buff. I'm asking to add a cost to using it. If these lingering health pots are that beneficial to you to the point you would be destroyed without them, then that is further proof they carry.

Is 30 secs cooldown not enough cost for the vitality pot buff? I not, I don't know what are you asking for, because 30% dmg reduction is not a cost but down right making the pot useless. It's like saying, you can't healing while being offenisve, well, templar magicka ***/crit surge/embers/inhale/marciless are telling otherwise.

Urzigurumash

This thread does not seem to take into account StamDKs in Battlegrounds Death Match.

Take a StamDK with 7th, Fury, Bloodspawn and Lingering Health / Vitality pots in a high MMR Death Match and see what you think.

Certain classes are stronger in certain forms of PvP. This is often due to the nature of their class identity. It is difficult to rectify this matter in one form of PvP without gravely diminishing the classes' capabilities in other forms of PvP.

As a mostly Non-CP player I would advocate for an adjustment to the Blessed CP before anything, but I am biased in this regard.

Edit: To clarify my thoughts here, I am not suggesting Lingering Health / Vitality Pots are essential for a StamDK in Death Match, but rather a diminution or deletion of the healing passives of DK might severely limit the usefulness of StamDK in Death Match, where the class is already conspicuously weak.