Entropy is way too strong.

Muzzick

First people complaining about nerfs to dps, then complaining about buffs to dps

enzoisadog

Muzzick wrote: »

First people complaining about nerfs to dps, then complaining about buffs to dps

People don't even run entropy in pve, its more of a pvp change.

ecru

Muzzick wrote: »

First people complaining about nerfs to dps, then complaining about buffs to dps

Honestly I think this is going to raise the ceiling a bit and make it much more difficult for casual players to reach close to top tier dps. On my mag necro on PTS for "optimal" dps not only do I have to refresh blockade, boneyard, skeletal arcanist, siphon, and trap or channeled acceleration as they fall offwhile using blastbones every third gcd in between all of these abilities, I now have to use Flame Reach, Entropy, and Soul Trap for "optimal" dps. That's three extra dots to keep track of/refresh, or seven dots total to keep track of. This doesn't really bother me too much, but most players have a hard enough time with their rotation as it is with like 2-3 dots, adding in three extra dots to keep track of and refresh for optimal dps is going to make it even harder for them.

Is juggling 7 dots the way dps rotations are intended to be? If so it's only going to widen the gap between the top and the bottom, or even the top and the middle.

Muzzick

enzoisadog wrote: »

Muzzick wrote: »

First people complaining about nerfs to dps, then complaining about buffs to dps

People don't even run entropy in pve, its more of a pvp change.

People don't run entropy right now because it's weak in PVE, I don't see why I wouldn't run it after nerfs to the aoe dots

Runefang

Like I said in another thread, the meta with this patch will be to run all single target dots on bosses and aoe dots on trash. Which isn't bad with add-ons, but I pity console players so much....

Muzzick

ecru wrote: »

Muzzick wrote: »

First people complaining about nerfs to dps, then complaining about buffs to dps

Honestly I think this is going to raise the ceiling a bit and make it much more difficult for casual players to reach close to top tier dps. On my mag necro on PTS for "optimal" dps not only do I have to refresh blockade, boneyard, skeletal arcanist, siphon, and trap or channeled acceleration as they fall offwhile using blastbones every third gcd in between all of these abilities, I now have to use Flame Reach, Entropy, and Soul Trap for "optimal" dps. That's three extra dots to keep track of/refresh, or seven dots total to keep track of. This doesn't really bother me too much, but most players have a hard enough time with their rotation as it is with like 2-3 dots, adding in three extra dots to keep track of and refresh for optimal dps is going to make it even harder for them.

Is juggling 7 dots the way dps rotations are intended to be? If so it's only going to widen the gap between the top and the bottom, or even the top and the middle.

I understand what you're saying but not every class has as many dots, and this serves as a replacement for the nerfed aoe dots. We'll find out what the ceiling is when the top players test their rotations on pts. I think everyone will improve equally on this. The top players already keep 100% on major sorcery anyway so I see this as a bonus for those in the middle who don't have easy access to the buff or don't want to waste money on potions.

Muzzick

Runefang wrote: »

Like I said in another thread, the meta with this patch will be to run all single target dots on bosses and aoe dots on trash. Which isn't bad with add-ons, but I pity console players so much....

I definitely agree with this. This should be a priority for the developers. Even if not initially a complete gear swap like the addons, at least two sets of swappable skills.

MellowMagic

The new dots seem reasonable to me. Entropy is like barbed trap, reach is like rendering and both stam and mag get soul trap now.

Dojohoda

I had a look my my magicka toon's entropy tool tip on PTS and it was not quite as good as yours. It is 21217. Still.. that is decent damage over 12 seconds.

Lokey0024

Obsoleted all my MDK armor almost.

Anhedonie

27500 is pretty much the same tooltip I have on live for both Graveyard and Siphon on my magicka necromancer. No idea what do you mean by too strong. Have you seen tooltip of dk's stamina version of claw?

Oliwaltony

I've seen someone mentionning stam dps pretty much all got better dps? How is that possible? Did I missed something?

wheem_ESO

Checking tooltips across a few characters:
It has slightly less damage and slightly higher cost when compared to a Magicka Warden's Fetcher Infection (tooltip does not take into account the +50% damage on every other Infection cast, and that's also without Mage's Guild passives for cost reduction and increased duration; so both DOTs were at 10 seconds).

It also has slightly less damage than the up-front + DOT portion a Magicka Templar's Vampire's Bane, and costs slightly more.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

What is the problem ?
Everyone cry about DPS loss and ZoS give you an alternate way to build to keep dmg up.
And now you complain ? I don't get it.

If ZoS give me a new strong heal skill to replace Grand healing, I'll be happy.
So, don't complain plz, at least DPS have possibility to still be effective.

The tooltips are high enough that they look like they'll be mandatory to slot, potentially replacing class skills. Right now on my mag necro I don't have a class skill that does more damage per gcd than reach, entropy, or soul trap, meaning these three dots will now be part of my rotation no matter what. It's completely crowding out any class skills, which are weak in comparison.

Skeletal arcanist will. What is your tool tip of that skill?

On a Magicka Necromancer in PvP gear with a Flame Staff and un-morphed Skeletal Mage (since Arcanist simply makes it worse for PvP), I'm at:
Skeletal Mage - 5,479 every 2 seconds
Entropy - 28,952 over 12 seconds
I don't remember exactly what my CP allocation is offhand, but I know I'm at 40 in Thaumaturge.

From the perspective of someone that almost exclusively PvP's once I have a character leveled up, I'm very happy with the changes to Entropy. On the live servers, it's one of the worst skills in the game, which has been a sore spot with me for quite a while, and leaves some classes with really bad options for Major Sorcery. On my Magicka Necromancer, for example, I'm left with either:
1) Use Entropy, with it's horrible DOT, horrible HOT, and short duration Major Sorcery buff.
2) Use Rattlecage and save that bar slot (which is what I'm doing on live).
3) Spend a lot of money on Spell Power potions + give up the ability to use something else instead (and since I'm allergic to farming, this isn't a "real" option for me).

Now Entropy is more in line with the "generic" sources of Major Brutality for Stamina builds - it's a skill that actually has some value outside of that one singular buff. The Rattlecage set is definitely going to be a casualty if this Entropy change makes it to the live servers, though. It doesn't seem like all that many people use it now, and it definitely won't be such a big deal to "save the bar slot" when Entropy isn't a big, steaming pile of you-know-what anymore.

Revokus

About time magicka has nice dots.

Anhedonie

This is on LIVE, with NO Major Sorcery buff on the weakest dps spec in the game currently.

_Ahala_

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Is this really that bad? Fetcher Flies usually has a 22~24k tooltip for a 10 sec DoT and that's before the 50% extra dmg buff.

22-24k... you can viably build a 34k tooltip now which gets boosted up to 51k dot over 10s on the second cast... boost penetration with onslaught and you have yourself one potent dot

ecru

_Ahala_ wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Is this really that bad? Fetcher Flies usually has a 22~24k tooltip for a 10 sec DoT and that's before the 50% extra dmg buff.

22-24k... you can viably build a 34k tooltip now which gets boosted up to 51k dot over 10s on the second cast... boost penetration with onslaught and you have yourself one potent dot

Yeah all three of these dots are really strong now. I don't think this is going to be well received if it goes live like this. First off, it makes pve mag rotations miserable because all you're doing now is playing whack-a-mole with dots, and second, the ranged dot pressure (especially soul trap applying to three people at once) from any magicka class from just these three abilities will be a whole lot to deal with. my stamdk which is dot focused (with deadly strike) barely applies that much dot pressure in melee as these three dots do from range, and light armor also gets a penetration bonus too so that's also something to consider when tooltips are similar. I'd be surprised if they go live as-is but this whole patch is surprising so yeah.

Jaraal

ecru wrote: »

Entropy and Soul Trap. They're about twice as good as class abilities at this point. I guess this is homogenization? Everyone has soul trap and entropy on their bar?

It's called, wow, look what my Mages guild skills can do now! I need to unlock this in the crown store for all my characters RIGHT NOW!

Derra

Instead of talking about tooltip - why not talk about actual combat.
The abilities don´t seem to be OP there. Just actually vaible.

Jaraal

Anhedonie wrote: »

This is on LIVE, with NO Major Sorcery buff on the weakest dps spec in the game currently.

Don't forget this one:

ecru

Derra wrote: »

Instead of talking about tooltip - why not talk about actual combat.
The abilities don´t seem to be OP there. Just actually vaible.

Yeah I dunno, the more I think about this, the more I realize how much more than "viable" it's going to be in terms of outgoing pressure from range. Reach/entropy/soul trap all ticking while a curse goes off plus something like crystal frags is going to be a huge amount of pressure, or the new deathbolt, or on top of cripple, or vampire's bane, etc etc, and then add a spammable on top of that, and it's going to be from range. That kind of dot pressure can barely be applied by stam in melee and even then mag gets an extra 5k pen from the light armor passive, which I always thought was the justification for magicka abilities (in pvp at least) doing slightly less than their stamina counterparts. Parsing earlier on my magcro, those three dots are now roughly 20% of my dps.

It looks nice on paper for mag but once you get into a BG and have two of each on you from across a BG I think most people are going to reconsider how they feel about them. I know that on my stamdk that if I can dot someone up (claw/breath (was just nerfed)/carve (also nerfed)/rending) and do basically anything else, they're almost immediately on the defensive, but I have to be in melee to do that, and against good players, getting four uninterrupted gcd's in melee isn't the easiest thing. From range it is though

Derra

ecru wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Instead of talking about tooltip - why not talk about actual combat.
The abilities don´t seem to be OP there. Just actually vaible.

Yeah I dunno, the more I think about this, the more I realize how much more than "viable" it's going to be in terms of outgoing pressure from range. Reach/entropy/soul trap all ticking while a curse goes off plus something like crystal frags is going to be a huge amount of pressure, or the new deathbolt, or on top of cripple, or vampire's bane, etc etc, and then add a spammable on top of that, and it's going to be from range. That kind of dot pressure can barely be applied by stam in melee and even then mag gets an extra 5k pen from the light armor passive, which I always thought was the justification for magicka abilities (in pvp at least) doing slightly less than their stamina counterparts. Parsing earlier on my magcro, those three dots are now roughly 20% of my dps.

It looks nice on paper for mag but once you get into a BG and have two of each on you from across a BG I think most people are going to reconsider how they feel about them. I know that on my stamdk that if I can dot someone up (claw/breath (was just nerfed)/carve (also nerfed)/rending) and do basically anything else, they're almost immediately on the defensive, but I have to be in melee to do that, and against good players, getting four uninterrupted gcd's in melee isn't the easiest thing. From range it is though

Well one of those dots is also available for stam ranged - that´s soultrap. Costs magica does physical dmg at range.
Then stam has PI which is miles ahead of reach (which quite frankly said nobody will ever use again in a real setup).

Y2J

Can't all these dots be purged in PVP?

Nyladreas

This is amazing!!!! This will see so much use in PvE

olsborg

This gotta be a bug or an oversight of some sort, holy cow.

Derra

olsborg wrote: »

This gotta be a bug or an oversight of some sort, holy cow.

You actually tested on pts or just commenting based on tt values?

Wait until someone uploads a nice 35k vigor tooltip

Appo

Stop the whining, these skill lines should have always been strong and viable, you have to work and grind for them, nothing is ever good enough for some people!

wheem_ESO

ecru wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Instead of talking about tooltip - why not talk about actual combat.
The abilities don´t seem to be OP there. Just actually vaible.

Yeah I dunno, the more I think about this, the more I realize how much more than "viable" it's going to be in terms of outgoing pressure from range. Reach/entropy/soul trap all ticking while a curse goes off plus something like crystal frags is going to be a huge amount of pressure, or the new deathbolt, or on top of cripple, or vampire's bane, etc etc, and then add a spammable on top of that, and it's going to be from range. That kind of dot pressure can barely be applied by stam in melee and even then mag gets an extra 5k pen from the light armor passive, which I always thought was the justification for magicka abilities (in pvp at least) doing slightly less than their stamina counterparts. Parsing earlier on my magcro, those three dots are now roughly 20% of my dps.

It looks nice on paper for mag but once you get into a BG and have two of each on you from across a BG I think most people are going to reconsider how they feel about them. I know that on my stamdk that if I can dot someone up (claw/breath (was just nerfed)/carve (also nerfed)/rending) and do basically anything else, they're almost immediately on the defensive, but I have to be in melee to do that, and against good players, getting four uninterrupted gcd's in melee isn't the easiest thing. From range it is though

I haven't done any PvP on the PTS yet, but it's possible that there will indeed be too much widespread DOT pressure. Some builds will get a straight buff to their damage from the live server, since they were already using Entropy for the Major Sorcery (even though it's a terrible ability otherwise). Soul Trap and Destructive Reach will generally require some amount of build-alteration to make use of, though. The former was never used in PvP, and the latter was typically used for CC and/or a spammable with a Master's Staff.

Hopefully there will actually be some BGs happening during this PTS cycle, so we can get at least a glimpse of what might be possible with all these various changes.

Peekachu99

Did they change the animation at all? It always looked so minimal and cheap.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

On a Magicka Necromancer in PvP gear with a Flame Staff and un-morphed Skeletal Mage (since Arcanist simply makes it worse for PvP), I'm at:
Skeletal Mage - 5,479 every 2 seconds
Entropy - 28,952 over 12 seconds
I don't remember exactly what my CP allocation is offhand, but I know I'm at 40 in Thaumaturge.

well mage will give you 2739 dps and entropy is 2412 with your numbers. skeletal arcanist is also aoe. seems balanced to me. does the skeletal arcanist get reduced by major evasion, is that why you say that it is worse?