Homogenization

SlowMetabolism

***·mog·e·ni·za·tion
/həˌmäjənəˈzāSH(ə)n/
Definition: A process by which the fat droplets from milk are emulsified and the cream does not separate.
Definition: The process of making things uniform or similar.

Let me preface this by saying that I havent played the game actively or at any competitive level in 2-3+ years but do readily await the release of all of the patch notes every few months to see what this game is deciding to bring to the table, primarily in terms of balance.

There has been a shift that has taken place within the past few patch cycles that has consisted of making class skill lines, DoT abilites, "spammable abilities" etc. etc. all adhere to a similiar set of standardized guides. This is not a healthy way to balance the game. This is forcing a set of regulations on not only the player base but also the classes/abilities that were once unique and each had there own distinctive uses. Not every class needs a specific tank skill line, damage skill line and healing/utility skill line. In changing or nerfing class defining skills that players of the other classes may feel are "overpowered" you seriously ruin what makes them unique. It really is that simple. I know ZOS likes to promote "playing the way you want" but that does not mean that every class should be able to competetively challenge one another on the grounds of tanking, DD and Healing. Especially when the original concept of the classes were designed with their prowess in each of these roles in mind. Sure every class can be made into a tank but when doing so the person must understand that they will be restricting themselves in some way by going against the "meta". With that being said I cannot believe that the developers of this game have introduced two new classes that have only made community outcry louder and balancing needs much more apparent and necessary.

Weapon skill lines are showing the beginnings of being standardized. One handed and shield will now only be usable for tanks as the damage factor, while perhaps overperforming, will now have no reason to be used on a dps bar. Dual wield on the other hand is the supreme DPS skill line for stamina classes (and some magicka classes), it comes with arguably overperforming DoTs/bleeds, HoTs, AoE execute etc. This has single-handedly led to the most prominent playstyle I've seen among small scale and solo players shooting for high damage dawnbreakers combined with spin to win to kill nearly anyone in their paths. Two handed begs the question of "how many people would use this weapon if rally only provided major brutality and not either a burst heal/HoT or snare removal/immunity?" both of which are very much needed in PvP. Bow I think is in a reasonable place as it stands, it has both PvE and PvP uses. Destruction staff, like bow, has both PvE and PvP uses but for most magicka classes I feel is only used as a way to range weave which keeps it relevant. Restoration staff does what it is supposed to do, basically the only thing worth slotting on back bar for magicka classes bolstering its use. The only reason the staff skill lines are not touched as much is because magicka classes have so many abilities to choose from and do not need to fill their bars with weapon abilities like stamina classes do.

Solution?
The more I look at it the more it seems to me that the game needs to be split into PvE and PvP. This would mean every ability does different things in PvP and in PvE, morphs included. This would simplify balancing and would allow PvP balance to not impact PvE and vice versa. It would obviously be a large undertaking but the foundations of the abilities that are used in PvE and PvP should be a pretty apparent starting point. Also in terms of balance as it stands right now something does need to be done about the Champion point system (I know they have said they are looking at it). Personally I feel that capping it at 300 would work wonders. As it stands CP passively increases your characters max stats and provides an array of benefits that are both inflated solely by the amount you have/are allowed to input. I think we can all agree we would rather see an attempt be made at changes for the better rather than implementing sets whose five piece bonuses sound like this-
Whenever you critically heal or critically damage a target
For every bleed effect you have on an enemy
Whenever you deal direct damage
Whenever you deal Critical damage
When you deal damage with a damage over time effect
When you take damage from a melee attack
When you bash an enemy

What a joke.

Lilly_Elessa

THIS! A thousand times this, this has been a huge concern of mine since they started applying "standardization" to everything.

I understand it's easier to balance, by a lot. But it's removing the real flavors and uniqueness from the game. What has made this game great over the years has been that every class and spec has felt truly unique.

What makes these changes even harder to stomach is that there just aren't many other games to turn to for a rich experience with variety. If other games weren't already very homogenized, they have been moving towards it longer than this. ESO has been a beautiful haven of build diversity, but it too is now dying...

Lucky28

it's easier to balance sure, but this game is not gonna last on that path... that's not why anyone plays this game and it never was. Most people play ESO because it is a TES game more so than because it's an MMO, if ZoS loses the TES aspect, they lose it all really.

Starlight_Knight

TLDR: - But just by the title i agree.

_Salty_

The end of diversity and individual class flavor is long gone. I now look at a class based on what buffs and debuffs it offers rather than how a class actually plays within its architype.

I started playing a sap tank at console launch and it no longer exists. That game style that had been systematically nerfed into the ground with every patch.

Dreyloch

From original post..."The more I look at it the more it seems to me that the game needs to be split into PvE and PvP. This would mean every ability does different things in PvP and in PvE, morphs included."

This, this and SOoooo much 123439821398% this ^^^^^

I have been saying this for 4 years now. I think a solution to this and the CP problem would be to change the CP system to cater to PvP or PvE depending on where you put the points. But I have lost hope any of this will ever happen. Unless it's why ZoS is changing things according to their "new standardization?" As to give a baseline before changing the CP system? Eh, im being too optimistic again /shrug

DreadDaedroth

Standardisation is only good in making things more boring and flat, taking unicity off.

josh.lackey_ESO

They should be trying to standardize overall effectiveness. Standardizing ability-wise does not take into account the overall kit a class has access to. So when you standardize an ability, it can have a disproportionate impact depending on what other abilities are present or missing from a class kit.

kaithuzar

Flavor should be added later/second.
Standardization has to come first not only for balance but to help get a handle on the lag!
Have you even stepped foot in Cyrodiil during the past 5 years?!?!?
IF they can’t just throw money at the problem, real work is required, which is what they’ve moved towards & I for one am happy about it.
Chill for a few months & see the outcome.
I highly anticipate they’ll be adding “flavor” back once they’ve fixed things that should have been done years ago.

Faulgor

I see more variety in these patch notes than ever before tbh. Long forgotten skills are finally brought up to par with similar abilities. Soul Trap, Entropy, even things like Volcanic Rune are worth another look now. We are even discussing the possibility of dw/2h builds for stamina PvE.

Sure, most likely one best option for every class will emerge again. But this "homogenization" helps to close the often immense gaps between must-have skills and trash, which makes more alternative builds at least viable. And it finally gives ZOS a better foundation to build further balance patches on.

fred4

I also worry about homogenization. Thankfully, I think we're not quite there yet. Case in point: my main, a melee magicka nightblade ganker / brawler speed build. It plays differently from every other build I know.

Other magicka nightblades are typically ranged. Even the type of Torug's Pact ganker Kristofer ESO recently brought out, which also slots Concealed and Cloak, fundamentally plays at range. He uses the shade and less speed. I use full Swift, have even better cloak sustain and no shade. I basically cover so much ground, the shade isn't much use.

I am very fast in cloak, a stamblade is fast outside of cloak and can't sustain cloak. A stamblade rolls or sprints, I cloak and shield. My build favors open spaces, where I can cloak away in different directions without players figuring out where I am. Most other builds use LoS. For me, obstacles are a mixed blessing.

My build only has one buff (Siphoning Attacks). Every other skill is reactive or situational (no shade, no merciless). This alone makes it different from most other builds, particulary wardens.

Unlike ranged builds, my build works by keeping up the pressure on players trying to LoS, due to being melee and being very fast. I really cannot overstate the speed benefit. If your opponent tries to hug a tree and you are the same speed or slower, they become invulnerable. I see this all the time. Whole zergs cannot kill a 1vXer and it's partially because of this. Where most other builds, including magblades, would try to burst, I aim to keep up the pressure by staying on top of players, sometimes while falling from a tower and being in the air.

Friends rave about tanky Fury meta DK builds. One of the big differences, I think, is that those builds must let the fight come to them. Other builds, such as mine, take the fight to the opponent.

darkblue5

Mostly as far as homogenization is concerned there were small tweaks to damage over time amounts. Big exceptions were really pathetic skills like Scalding Rune. Making Scalding Rune less pathetic is hardly the homogenization of all specs into one unispec.

Kolache

I personally have hated that every single stamina DPS build has volley, poison arrow, and caltrops. So I'm looking forward to all of them being less desirable for single-target DPS.

As for nerfing 1h/shield damage, on one hand people are more similar if they have one less weapon skill to choose from for a given role. On the other hand skills are more similar (homogenized) if they effectively do the same thing (like a decent DPS 1h/shield attack).

I think our sentiments are similar--I want lots of build diversity too. I just think we are coming from a place of little build diversity and haven't given up on the hope that where we're going has a little more.

luen79rwb17_ESO

With Elsweyr patch most of the builds are simply slotting the same set of skills regardless of your class PVE-wise. It's boring and this should be adressed NOW. We can't let ZOS get away with this since this is NOT what players want. Players want their classes to feel unique and distinct like it was long time ago.

bayushi2005

SlowMetabolism wrote: »

The more I look at it the more it seems to me that the game needs to be split into PvE and PvP. This would mean every ability does different things in PvP and in PvE, morphs included. This would simplify balancing and would allow PvP balance to not impact PvE and vice versa. It would obviously be a large undertaking but the foundations of the abilities that are used in PvE and PvP should be a pretty apparent starting point. Also in terms of balance as it stands right now something does need to be done about the Champion point system (I know they have said they are looking at it). Personally I feel that capping it at 300 would work wonders. As it stands CP passively increases your characters max stats and provides an array of benefits that are both inflated solely by the amount you have/are allowed to input. I think we can all agree we would rather see an attempt be made at changes for the better rather than implementing sets whose five piece bonuses sound like this-
Whenever you critically heal or critically damage a target
For every bleed effect you have on an enemy
Whenever you deal direct damage
Whenever you deal Critical damage
When you deal damage with a damage over time effect
When you take damage from a melee attack
When you bash an enemy

What a joke.

This. I remember times, when while playing magicka Sorc I would stack mostly weapon damage, use my extra stamina Dunmer passive (light/heavy attack from staff would scale of it) and a weighted trait for flame staff. I was fun back then. This build worked and felt unique. I used my class and racial passives to my advantage and excelled, then current, "meta".

I barely can see any differences between my chars now. They pretty much wear the same stuff and perform the same rotation. There are tons of sets doing more or less the same thing (think Crafty Alfiq vs Necropotence vs Destruction Mastery vs Julianos ect) and we are flooded with new sets with each chapter/DLC, it does not help. Our unique passives are gone. We are stripped off our class identities. Instead of being entertaining it makes the whole game boring and repetitive.

I definitely wouldn't mind a split for pvp and pve. Been playing with that for years in GW1. It does not hurt and it brings a solution. But the whole system needs a rework. From scratch.

I am happy, however, that the long forgotten skills gained some attention.

SlowMetabolism

Faulgor wrote: »

I see more variety in these patch notes than ever before tbh. Long forgotten skills are finally brought up to par with similar abilities. Soul Trap, Entropy, even things like Volcanic Rune are worth another look now. We are even discussing the possibility of dw/2h builds for stamina PvE.

Sure, most likely one best option for every class will emerge again. But this "homogenization" helps to close the often immense gaps between must-have skills and trash, which makes more alternative builds at least viable. And it finally gives ZOS a better foundation to build further balance patches on.

I think we are talking about two different things here as I have no problem with buffing skills that are not used regularly or at all. What im talking about, and maybe it was said poorly in the post, is homogenization that crosses class lines specifically. Let me give an example of what I mean. Lets take lava whip and lets say surprise attack/concealed weapon both of which are spammable melee abilities for stam and/or mag. Now with this new standardization process they would equal out the damage and cost to fit other spammables just because the abilities fall under the the umbrella of a "spammable attack". This is not good as it does not take into account the overall class as a whole such as the variety of usable abilities the class has access to and really just how good or bad the class is performing overall. Im all for tuning and tweaking individual skills but within the foundation of the class if that makes sense.

Just to reiterate on the point of "long forgotten skills"- I cannot tell you how much more diversity in skill selection (and set selection) I wish this game had. I know how many skills never see the light of day and how many sets, which get added every patch, are completely pointless in early game or otherwise. You achieve skill diversity by making everything have a use and making them be unique whether that be in general or within the confines of a certain class. Homogenization does the opposite.

Amoeboren

Agree 100% with OP