5.1.0 - Well Done!

msalvia

75% of the player base struggles to complete easy vet dungeons due to imcompetent dps.

The solution: nerf damage across the board.

And I thought pugging now is bad...

MaxJrFTW

code65536 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Oh no would you look at that, you can't spam healing springs over and over in both pvp and pve. What a tragedy.

Oh no would you look at that, you'll fail every major heal check in vet trials. Why don't you go and clear vHoF on the PTS on Monday, and then we can talk?

Healing Seed, Healing Ritual, healers using actual healing ults. Stop being a drama queen.

mennotje999

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Oh no would you look at that, you can't spam healing springs over and over in both pvp and pve. What a tragedy.

Oh no would you look at that, you'll fail every major heal check in vet trials. Why don't you go and clear vHoF on the PTS on Monday, and then we can talk?

Healing Seed, Healing Ritual, healers using actual healing ults. Stop being a drama queen.

You obviously have no idea what a healer does in trials/dungeons if you're say stuff like this. A healer in ESO PvE is not just a healer, it's also a support role which will do buffing/debuffing and utility. With these changes a healer will be fully focussing on healing for like 90% of the fights and will have 0 time to actually do support stuff.

I do get that the angry pvp mass is happy with this patch because let's be fair, a smallscale pvp group with dedicated healers is *** shite but that's a problem on it's own for just pvp, not pve. Nerfing this *** should be done in a pvp only way through the battle spirit buff or something else because this is just ruining the PvE aspect of the game.

Zyaedra

leepalmer95 wrote: »

norrisnick wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Super_Bubus wrote: »

Exactly what @code65536 said, as obvious as it is... PVPers want their game fixed when they don't care what happens to PVE. But yet again PVP can't be balanced and never will be. One complains there's too many Nightblades when it's only Stamblades since Magblades are basically suffering to even exist, or when there's more StamDK than anything, or when the whole meta tank/dps is bad, or when someone is just not good enough to do anything in there ; it just never ends.
Making 2 separate "worlds" PVP and PVE is clearly the solution for everyone to be happy indeed , but that's way too much work right, better create content over and over again and put new TOS saying they're not responsible for anything when it's broken.
These patch notes are the perfect illustration of developpers not playing their own game, same was with the cast time on the shields which we made great effort to fight against such a thing..now I'd rather have cast time on shields over one Orb and one Healing Springs at a time.
See ya in week 4 hopefully.

Have some dd's slot some of the new long lasting aoe heals.

Maybe a way to counter the fact people are hitting 100k dps in execute phases is to reduce people sustain a little bit and force them to spend some to heal occasionally so people have to drop some dmg in order to sustain slightly lower dps.

It's a good idea. Because the power creep needs looking at and I know most pve on the forum would rather get stronger and stronger so eventually the power creep will do the trials for them.

Then why bring healers? That's the issue here. This patch is potentially killing off dedicated group healers in end-game PVE because their toolkits will not allow them to heal a 12 man raid through some of the more severe healing checks. So if all the DDs have to slot their own heals for that check, and build for sustain because there aren't enough orbs to go around, what are the healers there for?

Can you see why that might be distressing to people that main as PVE healer/supports? They already aren't invited to 4-man content anymore because ZOS' fix to not bringing tanks was just building in one-shots mechanics that only tanks could block or everyone had to get out of. Can't heal through a one-shot so why bring a healer?

To support tanks? To keep dd's alive through the non hard hitting heal checks so they can actually DD. For support sets, certain buffs etc...

Do you know how silly it sounds to consider the healers viable since they can keep the DDs alive through the "non hard hitting heal checks"? What's to stop the DDs from including those "long lasting AoE heals" in their rotation so they are up all the time... if they do, 2 more DPS would make killing the bosses faster and we all know that the trials feel a lot easier the faster we're able to off the bosses. Hell if the "long lasting AoE heals" work well enough on live, spamming springs and orbs won't even matter if 10 DPS can clear the things LOL.

Ozby

Masel wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Exactly, I think many PvE focused players have never entered pvp and don’t realize a majority of these changes make pvp much more balanced.

Sure PvE might get affected a bit but don’t go into content with 4 DPS or just 1 person who is like a hybrid healer tank or healer dps. It’s time for people to learn mechanics and get better.

"might get affected a bit" if only that would be the case. There is phases in vet Trials that depend on springs to outheal continous Damage on all 12 People.

Put a few healing abilities like echoing vigor, ritual, healing tethers, enchanted growth, circle of protection etc. on dds and you can easily substitute the healing spring stack just by having a few damage dealers slot one additional ability for utility and healing. Players again act like changes are the end of the world every update instead of seeing change as an opportunity to try out things that weren't done before.

Don't get me wrong, some changes are controversial, but I see a lot of good stuff in the notes as well.

I was thinking about not posting in here because I know what will happen if I do, but oh well...

I'm glad you posted again, it is always good to hear different perspectives. I like some of the changes for sure because as a healer main I do get sick of doing trials where all they want is bloody orbs all the time and healers being reduced to buff orb machines. However the change to healing springs is harsh and I cant help feel shafted everytime ZOS trys to balance PVP and PVE at the same time on the same system. I really want to understand why they decided on these changes I think if I knew some of the reasoning behind these decisions it may help with my acceptance. Is there somewhere I can find this information?

Ozby

norrisnick wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

Exactly, I think many PvE focused players have never entered pvp and don’t realize a majority of these changes make pvp much more balanced.

Sure PvE might get affected a bit but don’t go into content with 4 DPS or just 1 person who is like a hybrid healer tank or healer dps. It’s time for people to learn mechanics and get better.

"might get affected a bit" if only that would be the case. There is phases in vet Trials that depend on springs to outheal continous Damage on all 12 People.

Put a few healing abilities like echoing vigor, ritual, healing tethers, enchanted growth, circle of protection etc. on dds and you can easily substitute the healing spring stack just by having a few damage dealers slot one additional ability for utility and healing. Players again act like changes are the end of the world every update instead of seeing change as an opportunity to try out things that weren't done before.

Don't get me wrong, some changes are controversial, but I see a lot of good stuff in the notes as well.

I was thinking about not posting in here because I know what will happen if I do, but oh well...

So bring 10 self-sufficient DPS. Got it.

What was so bad with the healer role? Do healer/support mains not get a place in ESO anymore?

They have been making healers slowly redundant bit by bit with each patch to be honest more teams running 3 dps 1 tank VDSA and VBRP.

cheemers

technohic wrote: »

Im just trying to figure out major evasion on FM and Rally. I mean; if you have rally over FM, you probably already have shuffle as well? Trying to figure out how to go about avoiding redundancy there. Go FM, and get a heal from somewhere else with the free slot from not needing any major evasion source? Run rally and something else for anti-snare/roots? Feels shuffle while finally buffed, becomes obsolete.

You go Rally + Race Against Time.

Brutality, Evasion, Expedition, Minor Force, Snare removal and burst heal without any redundancy.

acw37162

Not gonna lie and there is a long way to go to what is actually published to a live server.

But I think I am going to start planning my life around taking a patch or two off, this is maybe the most depressing set of patch patch notes I’ve read for this game and that is a tall bar because there have been some craptastic patch notes.

Aznarb

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Oh no would you look at that, you can't spam healing springs over and over in both pvp and pve. What a tragedy.

Oh no would you look at that, you'll fail every major heal check in vet trials. Why don't you go and clear vHoF on the PTS on Monday, and then we can talk?

Healing Seed, Healing Ritual, healers using actual healing ults. Stop being a drama queen.

Nb healer ? Ult to short, lack of good spamable aoe class heal
DK healer ? No healing ult, weak shield, lack of spamable aoe class heal
Necro Healer ? No healing ult, need corpse to aoe heal, not spamable then
Sorc healer ? Weak ult heal, no aoe spamable class heal

Warden and Templar are gonna be "fine", the other are fkd.
And that is the problem.
Blessing of protection only affect 6 player, not enough.

master_vanargand

Old healer was too simple.
New healer need techniques.
But I think it will be more fun.

kaithuzar

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

I disagree:
Barrier
Veil of blades/consuming
Nova
Negate

This are all varying methods which have been used to mitigate “high continuous damage, coming from a trial boss” & are likely better than springs.
Even today, blood altar has been buffed; you should try it.

Barrier is gone after a few seconds of Hof hardmode, with nova you still Need aoe heals, same with veil, negate has too much downtime, blood altar has a cooldown of 20 seconds for the Synergy which is the only relevant Thing, try again please?

Then use ALL OF THEM!

I’m not saying there exist a silver bullet, but the content can still be completed.
“Spam springs” was too cheese mode boring.

Sanguinor2

kaithuzar wrote: »

Then use ALL OF THEM!

Doesnt Change their Problems. They still have Downtimes.
Alternatively I´d propose we just bring 12 tanks that wear knightslayer as one set and heavy attack every boss to death while keeping themselves alive.

Sandman929

I have to say, its entertaining to watch people applaud the notes because they think that this time those darned ball groups are finally done for.

Sanguinor2

Sandman929 wrote: »

I have to say, its entertaining to watch people applaud the notes because they think that this time those darned ball groups are finally done for.

If multiple echoing vigors stack, oh well.

Alucardo

msalvia wrote: »

75% of the player base struggles to complete easy vet dungeons due to imcompetent dps.

The solution: nerf damage across the board.

And I thought pugging now is bad...

So keep everything overtuned because some people suck at the game? Yeah, I'm kinda glad you don't work on the combat team.

MLGProPlayer

Lowest DPS in the game (magicka warden) gets the biggest nerfs. Makes sense.

I miss Wrobel.

josh.lackey_ESO

From the perspective of a PvP player, these patch notes are almost universally awful. I expect every new patch to buff stamina and nerf magicka, that's been the general direction of the game for several years now. But this patch is on a different level.

MLGProPlayer

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

From the perspective of a PvP player, these patch notes are almost universally awful. I expect every new patch to buff stamina and nerf magicka, that's been the general direction of the game for several years now. But this patch is on a different level.

It's just as bad for PvE.

There was power creep that needed to be addressed. But not like this. There is no rhyme or reason to any of these changes. Just *** being thrown at a wall, hoping something sticks.

DLM

They're killing it, they told us. They are really doing it.

MLGProPlayer

DLM wrote: »

They're killing it, they told us. They are really doing it.

They're trying to drive away as many players as possible to reduce server load. It all makes sense.

Bix08

acw37162 wrote: »

Not gonna lie and there is a long way to go to what is actually published to a live server.

But I think I am going to start planning my life around taking a patch or two off, this is maybe the most depressing set of patch patch notes I’ve read for this game and that is a tall bar because there have been some craptastic patch notes.

If this hits live servers it was my last month with eso+ sub.. instead of trying to fix the lag and bugs which are all over the place it just gets worse. I am glad that i saved some crowns so I can buy the two dlcs for vMoL and vAS. Dont see any reason why to pay further if this is going to go live..

kaithuzar

From my perspective it seems clear that they are both standardizing & normalizing all values across the board.
This in itself will help to reduce some lag as well as making the game more balanced.
Everything has to come second to that, as this is the best shot at both balance & lag reduction (or understanding the specifics of root cause for all lag scenarios).
Point out things as you see them but have some trust & confidence that the devs have the same goal for having a really great game.

Ashtaris

code65536 wrote: »

It's funny how it's all the PvPers who are cheering this change, as the notes resemble the typical forum PvP whine thread ("waaah, healing is too strong!").

It's almost like they have no idea how changes like this affect content that they don't play... as in, make certain things literally unbeatable.

And fine, I'll admit that I don't know much about your world either. So maybe it's about time ZOS balanced the two separately, hm?

I absolutely agree 100% code, and it’s been worse since Brian Wheeler took the rein as Combat Lead. It’s like he could care less what happens to PVE players.

master_vanargand

Why are you crying even though update is so exciting?
Crybaby want to no change forever.
But the stagnation is a silly idea, and it kill MMO.
MMO is the ever changing game.
Adapt if you are the MMO player.

Bix08

kaithuzar wrote: »

From my perspective it seems clear that they are both standardizing & normalizing all values across the board.
This in itself will help to reduce some lag as well as making the game more balanced.
Everything has to come second to that, as this is the best shot at both balance & lag reduction (or understanding the specifics of root cause for all lag scenarios).
Point out things as you see them but have some trust & confidence that the devs have the same goal for having a really great game.

You know what I see at the very moment? I see the death for progs groups in PvE. For teams who do not count to the best 10% of the game. It is hard to enter content which is new for the team no matter if the content is already old or not. With focusing on the healing changes this will be an additional kick into the faces of those groups. Also with regards of the dps on top because how else shall they sustain if healers can not support them with orbs anymore. The supporter role as such becomes a bit redundant in my eyes. I know that it will be working either way but for me this is just making it harder for those peeps who are not the best of the best and still would want to improve/progress in content. The gap in end content will become even bigger now.

And with regards to trust and confidence into devs.. just no.. if they would want to "solve" those problems it could have been done way in the past. Upgrade the servers, maybe separate pve and pvp servers or what so ever.. so many potential solutions, which are of course not easy and maybe also not cheap but they are here.. but this costs money and nobody wants to pay for a game where people do complain about but anyway they do pay their subs and buy the crowns. Not gonna lie, I count to those people who pay the sub because there is still hope.. but as said, if this hits life servers I just wont throw them my money anymore.

I am just speaking about Pve tho.. no clue about pvp.. hope that at least those peeps are happy..

kaithuzar

Bix08 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

From my perspective it seems clear that they are both standardizing & normalizing all values across the board.
This in itself will help to reduce some lag as well as making the game more balanced.
Everything has to come second to that, as this is the best shot at both balance & lag reduction (or understanding the specifics of root cause for all lag scenarios).
Point out things as you see them but have some trust & confidence that the devs have the same goal for having a really great game.

You know what I see at the very moment? I see the death for progs groups in PvE. For teams who do not count to the best 10% of the game. It is hard to enter content which is new for the team no matter if the content is already old or not. With focusing on the healing changes this will be an additional kick into the faces of those groups. Also with regards of the dps on top because how else shall they sustain if healers can not support them with orbs anymore. The supporter role as such becomes a bit redundant in my eyes. I know that it will be working either way but for me this is just making it harder for those peeps who are not the best of the best and still would want to improve/progress in content. The gap in end content will become even bigger now.

And with regards to trust and confidence into devs.. just no.. if they would want to "solve" those problems it could have been done way in the past. Upgrade the servers, maybe separate pve and pvp servers or what so ever.. so many potential solutions, which are of course not easy and maybe also not cheap but they are here.. but this costs money and nobody wants to pay for a game where people do complain about but anyway they do pay their subs and buy the crowns. Not gonna lie, I count to those people who pay the sub because there is still hope.. but as said, if this hits life servers I just wont throw them my money anymore.

I am just speaking about Pve tho.. no clue about pvp.. hope that at least those peeps are happy..

Issues you stated:
1) it’s hard for noobs
Ans1) it’s up to us as a community to teach them & for them to practice & want to get better

2) people don’t trust devs & wonder why things weren’t changed before
Ans2) Did you miss the memo on “new mgmt”? Brian & team have only been running the show for maybe 2 patches, aka less than a year & they are making great strides!

3) But why don’t they throw money at it & upgrade servers?
Ans3) This is a “temporary solution” & it may not be an available option. As a tech guy I understand the best way to do something is to attack the core issues & in order to even know where the main issues are, you have to start by eliminating outliers aka performing normalization/standardization.

pieratsos

mennotje999 wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Oh no would you look at that, you can't spam healing springs over and over in both pvp and pve. What a tragedy.

Oh no would you look at that, you'll fail every major heal check in vet trials. Why don't you go and clear vHoF on the PTS on Monday, and then we can talk?

Healing Seed, Healing Ritual, healers using actual healing ults. Stop being a drama queen.

You obviously have no idea what a healer does in trials/dungeons if you're say stuff like this. A healer in ESO PvE is not just a healer, it's also a support role which will do buffing/debuffing and utility. With these changes a healer will be fully focussing on healing for like 90% of the fights and will have 0 time to actually do support stuff.

I do get that the angry pvp mass is happy with this patch because let's be fair, a smallscale pvp group with dedicated healers is *** shite but that's a problem on it's own for just pvp, not pve. Nerfing this *** should be done in a pvp only way through the battle spirit buff or something else because this is just ruining the PvE aspect of the game.

But if you were spamming healing springs in heal checks u were also just healing ur group so what's the difference. Isn't that the whole problem? That u won't be able to outheal the huge dmg during heal checks without spamming healing springs?

Bix08

kaithuzar wrote: »

Bix08 wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

From my perspective it seems clear that they are both standardizing & normalizing all values across the board.
This in itself will help to reduce some lag as well as making the game more balanced.
Everything has to come second to that, as this is the best shot at both balance & lag reduction (or understanding the specifics of root cause for all lag scenarios).
Point out things as you see them but have some trust & confidence that the devs have the same goal for having a really great game.

You know what I see at the very moment? I see the death for progs groups in PvE. For teams who do not count to the best 10% of the game. It is hard to enter content which is new for the team no matter if the content is already old or not. With focusing on the healing changes this will be an additional kick into the faces of those groups. Also with regards of the dps on top because how else shall they sustain if healers can not support them with orbs anymore. The supporter role as such becomes a bit redundant in my eyes. I know that it will be working either way but for me this is just making it harder for those peeps who are not the best of the best and still would want to improve/progress in content. The gap in end content will become even bigger now.

And with regards to trust and confidence into devs.. just no.. if they would want to "solve" those problems it could have been done way in the past. Upgrade the servers, maybe separate pve and pvp servers or what so ever.. so many potential solutions, which are of course not easy and maybe also not cheap but they are here.. but this costs money and nobody wants to pay for a game where people do complain about but anyway they do pay their subs and buy the crowns. Not gonna lie, I count to those people who pay the sub because there is still hope.. but as said, if this hits life servers I just wont throw them my money anymore.

I am just speaking about Pve tho.. no clue about pvp.. hope that at least those peeps are happy..

Issues you stated:
1) it’s hard for noobs
Ans1) it’s up to us as a community to teach them & for them to practice & want to get better

2) people don’t trust devs & wonder why things weren’t changed before
Ans2) Did you miss the memo on “new mgmt”? Brian & team have only been running the show for maybe 2 patches, aka less than a year & they are making great strides!

3) But why don’t they throw money at it & upgrade servers?
Ans3) This is a “temporary solution” & it may not be an available option. As a tech guy I understand the best way to do something is to attack the core issues & in order to even know where the main issues are, you have to start by eliminating outliers aka performing normalization/standardization.

I am not sure on which platform you play and I dont know how big the differences are between the platform communities. But I highly doubt that the top endgame teams which are out there will care more about people then they did in the past. And even if I dont count myself to that group I do understand them somehow. They have spent most likely their whole eso life in progressing the stuff once it come out. Why shall they care about others? Dont get me wrong this does of course not include everybody but at least the majority. A new team which did not have the chance yet to reach those goals will have it again way harder to go that way. I dont say its impossible but the gap between top endgame players and "noobs" will become bigger in my eyes. That doesnt mean its true, its just my opinion as of now and I might be totally wrong. But somebody needs to prove me once its here.

as of your second answer. Yes might be true and no I have not followed the news that the management did change. But as of everywhere its the same with ZOS. To get into other shoes is a ungrateful exercise. Might be that they will be better then the mgmt before, might also not be on the long run. We need to wait and see there. For me I just lost the trust over the years and it simply needs to be rebuild again. Its not like they change the mgmt and I do fully believe in them again. That doesnt mean that they are not trying. I may just disagree with what to touch first and in which way. But again, I might be totally wrong.

If you are a tech guy you see where I am coming from, do you? If I can not handle the content I have published it wont make it better with throwing even more content out there, is it? Except I do something for it, so the new content is playable too, without killing the rest of the game. I completely reckon that this isnt easy. Considering that no new content will decrease my sales, which will result in less new people buying the game and less "old" people investing into the game again. I am not coming from tech side even tho I work with devs. I do understand their business model but it doesnt mean that I need to support it without seeing any impact too. But this is solely my opinion and that doesnt mean at all that anybody else needs to share that.

MaxJrFTW

mennotje999 wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Oh no would you look at that, you can't spam healing springs over and over in both pvp and pve. What a tragedy.

Oh no would you look at that, you'll fail every major heal check in vet trials. Why don't you go and clear vHoF on the PTS on Monday, and then we can talk?

Healing Seed, Healing Ritual, healers using actual healing ults. Stop being a drama queen.

You obviously have no idea what a healer does in trials/dungeons if you're say stuff like this. A healer in ESO PvE is not just a healer, it's also a support role which will do buffing/debuffing and utility. With these changes a healer will be fully focussing on healing for like 90% of the fights and will have 0 time to actually do support stuff.

I do get that the angry pvp mass is happy with this patch because let's be fair, a smallscale pvp group with dedicated healers is *** shite but that's a problem on it's own for just pvp, not pve. Nerfing this *** should be done in a pvp only way through the battle spirit buff or something else because this is just ruining the PvE aspect of the game.

Yes, i do. Healers are buff bots. They're turning them into actual healers. Adapt, or embarrass yourself on the internet crying about changes coming to a video game. The choice is yours.

SoLooney

There are just so many unwanted changes.

Making healers mandatory for 4 mans was not the move. You have a choice to have a healer and do less group damage or play risky and push damage to avoid mechanics. There is risk and reward, zos obviously hates that by nerfing group healing from vigor

You destroyed orbs which is mandatory for the group healing and sustain. Didnt you clueless devs destroy sustain enough in morrowind? Didnt removing cost reduction, nerfing recovery cp, nerfing armor sustain, nerfing worm and hircine, making skills cost more etc etc. Didnt you destroy a dynamic gameplay? No one liked the heavy attack meta. That was boring and involved less gameplay

I swear none of your combat team ever played in trials or even 4 man content. The new lead combat designer literally smokes trees. And what is Gillian doing? Taking bribes to shut his mouth?

Dont destroy a game which has a unique and fun gameplay. Don't destroy an mmo which in my opinion has so much potential to be the best mmo ever made