Are Orcs a beast race?

Bruccius

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent

An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
*desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*

Yeah, I remember that thread. Solid evidence being tossed aside in favor of an unreliable quest.

PrayingSeraph

Bruccius wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent

An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
*desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*

Yeah, I remember that thread. Solid evidence being tossed aside in favor of an unreliable quest.

SMH

Bruccius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Oh boy, didn't we have this debate before? I am strongly in the camp that Orsimer are "elves", aka descendents of the Aldmer

ty, I think I found that thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434975/orcs

That being said, mer =/= elf necessarily. Even assuming orcs have aldmeri ancestors, I don't think anyone would describe them as elves.

Similarly, do we have a definition for what a "beast race" means? Mebz it's not a racial category, but just a description of a race that resembles a beast. Sounds like something an elf or man would say. 👀

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

The Orc high priestess at the temple in Orsinium most definitely has a British accent

An exception to the rule! The accent families hint at a cultural divergence!
*desperately clings on to my theory like the "Hang In There!" cat*

Yeah, I remember that thread. Solid evidence being tossed aside in favor of an unreliable quest.

SMH

Fact.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

I have never heard orcs truly being called a beast race. Because they were mer and to a major part still are. The "Pariah Folk". Though, at the same time they aren't fully considered mer anymore either and their situation is quite unique for the races of Nirn.
Perhaps just as Malacath is not what he once was, but is also not considered a Deadric Lord by his fellow Daedric Prince peers. The orsimer is not completely mer anymore, but they are not something else either.

Pheefs

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I have never heard orcs truly being called a beast race. Because they were mer and to a major part still are. The "Pariah Folk". Though, at the same time they aren't fully considered mer anymore either and their situation is quite unique for the races of Nirn.
Perhaps just as Malacath is not what he once was, but is also not considered a Deadric Lord by his fellow Daedric Prince peers. The orsimer is not completely mer anymore, but they are not something else either.

Yeah, and any Breton sources are serving a propaganda machine really.

Its an interesting puzzle, all the Men & Mer come from the Ehlonfey/Earth Bones
The Bosmer & Betmer split off when Y'ffre divided them.
The Orsimer are changed at the Fall of Trinimac to become what we have now... they may be changed elves, but still basically elves

& there's a similar story of the Aldmer & Chimer... where all the elves who left were 'changed' and became the Chimer who became the Dunmer

Transformative magicks make for interesting histories

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Pheefs wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I have never heard orcs truly being called a beast race. Because they were mer and to a major part still are. The "Pariah Folk". Though, at the same time they aren't fully considered mer anymore either and their situation is quite unique for the races of Nirn.
Perhaps just as Malacath is not what he once was, but is also not considered a Deadric Lord by his fellow Daedric Prince peers. The orsimer is not completely mer anymore, but they are not something else either.

Yeah, and any Breton sources are serving a propaganda machine really.

Its an interesting puzzle, all the Men & Mer come from the Ehlonfey/Earth Bones
The Bosmer & Betmer split off when Y'ffre divided them.
The Orsimer are changed at the Fall of Trinimac to become what we have now... they may be changed elves, but still basically elves

& there's a similar story of the Aldmer & Chimer... where all the elves who left were 'changed' and became the Chimer who became the Dunmer

Transformative magicks make for interesting histories

Exactly and indeed it does!

We aren't calling Dunmer beast folk now are we? So why would we call Orsimer that. Both are changed, one more than the other and for a different reason, but they are still mer.

Bruccius

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I have never heard orcs truly being called a beast race. Because they were mer and to a major part still are. The "Pariah Folk". Though, at the same time they aren't fully considered mer anymore either and their situation is quite unique for the races of Nirn.
Perhaps just as Malacath is not what he once was, but is also not considered a Deadric Lord by his fellow Daedric Prince peers. The orsimer is not completely mer anymore, but they are not something else either.

''These sophisticated barbarian beast peoples of the Wrothgarian and Dragontail Mountains are noted for their unshakeable courage in war and their unflinching endurance of hardships.''
~Racial description of the Orsimer in The Elder Scrolls III.

kylewwefan

Every time I get a little more informed on this stuff, it raises a few more questions.

The “Mer” does not seem what I thaught it to mean. For Aldmeri it’s simple as “folk”. Men and Mer isn’t really a final al de facto separation of sentient being or beast as seen with Orc that are referred to as both beast and Mer.


What is the difference between Aldmer and Altmer? We’re Dwemer Dwarves? We’re Dwarves and Ayelids the same thing? Why were they called Dwarves? We’re they little?

Then back to Elves. High Elves seem to be some kind of pure form, but not without their own problems. Could they be the closest link or distant relative to Dwarven/ Dwemer/ Ayelid?

Then the Beast Folk. Why isn’t there a whole lot more of them? Coming from cats and egg laid creatures ya know. When cats give birth it’s to a litter. Not uncommon to have 8 at a time. You could see the population of these types growing far more rapidly then anything of men or Mer....

Well never know because there are no children in Tamriel. People just kind of appear into existence somehow.


It makes me think a little of our own world, Whatever happened to the Ancient Incan Myans? I may be saying that wrong, but a strong guess would be they are modern day Mexicans or perhaps any Southern American spread of the continent beings.

They didn't just disappear, but their old ways are no more. No ones language is really their own, but what’s left from ancient Spanish Conquistadors. Language is from conquest and really has no place in the descendant origin.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Been away for a bit. Thanks for all the responses guys.

Has made for fantastic reading.

Bruccius

kylewwefan wrote: »

Every time I get a little more informed on this stuff, it raises a few more questions.

The “Mer” does not seem what I thaught it to mean. For Aldmeri it’s simple as “folk”. Men and Mer isn’t really a final al de facto separation of sentient being or beast as seen with Orc that are referred to as both beast and Mer.


What is the difference between Aldmer and Altmer? We’re Dwemer Dwarves? We’re Dwarves and Ayelids the same thing? Why were they called Dwarves? We’re they little?

Then back to Elves. High Elves seem to be some kind of pure form, but not without their own problems. Could they be the closest link or distant relative to Dwarven/ Dwemer/ Ayelid?

Then the Beast Folk. Why isn’t there a whole lot more of them? Coming from cats and egg laid creatures ya know. When cats give birth it’s to a litter. Not uncommon to have 8 at a time. You could see the population of these types growing far more rapidly then anything of men or Mer....

Well never know because there are no children in Tamriel. People just kind of appear into existence somehow.


It makes me think a little of our own world, Whatever happened to the Ancient Incan Myans? I may be saying that wrong, but a strong guess would be they are modern day Mexicans or perhaps any Southern American spread of the continent beings.

They didn't just disappear, but their old ways are no more. No ones language is really their own, but what’s left from ancient Spanish Conquistadors. Language is from conquest and really has no place in the descendant origin.

Aldmer were the predecessor to all Elven races. You could kind of see them as the common ancestor of all elven kind. They were the natives of Aldmeris, and would, gradually, turn into the other Elven races. The Altmer are the last ones to leave Aldmeris, and are thus still the most similar to the Aldmer. The Dwemer got their nickname as ''dwarves'' from the giants of Tamriel, as they viewed the Dwemer as small. The Ayleids are the Heartland High Elves of Cyrodiil, they'd be closer to the Altmer than to the Dwemer I think.

As for the Beastfolk, unsure. Perhaps it's culture, wouldn't surprise me if the Hist had a pretty direct influence on the Argonians' birthrate. As a matter of fact, I somewhat recall the Argonians only mating in one specific season. As for the Khajiit, I'm unsure if they give birth to a litter like our own cats do, but I'm no expert on Khajiiti lore.

LennoxPoodle

Pheefs wrote: »

Its an interesting puzzle, all the Men & Mer come from the Ehlonfey/Earth Bones
The Bosmer & Betmer split off when Y'ffre divided them.
The Orsimer are changed at the Fall of Trinimac to become what we have now... they may be changed elves, but still basically elves

Not all. IIRC te Argonians are descendant from the Hist. And those are something entirely different, existing in both Oblivion and Mundus (Maybe even Aetherius?). Also they are not capable of mating with the other races (if I'm not mistaken), so they don't even fulfill the definition of race. They are an entirely different species.

Korah_Eaglecry

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

As much as I do know about TES lore, this has always confused me.

Simple question: Are Orcs a beast race or Mer?

Depends on what version of the Lore you adhere to.

Old Testament Lore: Yes, theyre beasts and thats why you cant play as them.

New Testament Lore: No, Boethiah just pooped out their god and then they rubbed it all over themselves. ::poopemoji:: Now you can play them.

Bruccius

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

As much as I do know about TES lore, this has always confused me.

Simple question: Are Orcs a beast race or Mer?

Depends on what version of the Lore you adhere to.

Old Testament Lore: Yes, theyre beasts and thats why you cant play as them.

New Testament Lore: No, Boethiah just pooped out their god and then they rubbed it all over themselves. ::poopemoji:: Now you can play them.

In Morrowind they were considered beastfolk and you could still play as them in TES III...

Korah_Eaglecry

Bruccius wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

As much as I do know about TES lore, this has always confused me.

Simple question: Are Orcs a beast race or Mer?

Depends on what version of the Lore you adhere to.

Old Testament Lore: Yes, theyre beasts and thats why you cant play as them.

New Testament Lore: No, Boethiah just pooped out their god and then they rubbed it all over themselves. ::poopemoji:: Now you can play them.

In Morrowind they were considered beastfolk and you could still play as them in TES III...

I...I wasnt being serious.

Cundu_Ertur

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

IIRC Khajiit also originated from elves, with some subtypes still resembling wood elves.

Also it’s interesting to note the Falmer of Skyrim here. I think it’s fair to call them a beast race at this point (similar to goblins), although they were previously Snow Elves. Although I think they can still be considered elves, they did not lose that classification when they became beasts.

It may be more appropriate to say that Bosmer and Khajiit came from the same form-shifting people, but Bosmer followed Yffre and received elven forms while Khajiit followed Azura and got the mish-mash of forms they have now. Bosmer lore explicitly states that they would once shift forms from mer to beast and back until Yffre gave some of them their current elven forms. Khajiit lore (Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi) says the same.

As for the Falmer, as of Skyrim they are beast-like in that they can be soul-trapped with 'white' soul gems, but Argonians and Khajiit can only be trapped in 'black' gems. So the Falmer are, in Skyrim at least, more beast than folk.

tsaescishoeshiner

Bruccius wrote: »

Aldmer were the predecessor to all Elven races.

All the Elven races AND orcs.**

Evolving from elves doesn't necessarily make them elves.

In-game texts such as A Warning to the Aldmeri Dominion (quoted below) clearly separate orcs from elves:

We are well aware that the Aldmeri plan nothing less than a return to the Elven domination of the other races, particularly Men and Orcs. They wish to overturn the legacies of the First and Second Empires and wipe them from history. This we shall not allow. Never again will free Men and Orcs submit to the tyranny of Elven oppression!

As in, the people of Tamriel think of orcs and elves as distinct concepts. I'd be interested in more in-game materials on the subject, especially one that refers to orcs as elves (if there is any such text).

Back to the original question, any thoughts on what "beastfolk" even means?

Bruccius

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Aldmer were the predecessor to all Elven races.

All the Elven races AND orcs.**

Evolving from elves doesn't necessarily make them elves.

In-game texts such as A Warning to the Aldmeri Dominion (quoted below) clearly separate orcs from elves:

We are well aware that the Aldmeri plan nothing less than a return to the Elven domination of the other races, particularly Men and Orcs. They wish to overturn the legacies of the First and Second Empires and wipe them from history. This we shall not allow. Never again will free Men and Orcs submit to the tyranny of Elven oppression!

As in, the people of Tamriel think of orcs and elves as distinct concepts. I'd be interested in more in-game materials on the subject, especially one that refers to orcs as elves (if there is any such text).

Back to the original question, any thoughts on what "beastfolk" even means?

Beastfolk are the races that show beastial features. Argonians are pretty much just humanoid lizards, Khajiit are pretty much just humanoid cats, and Orcs are pretty much just humanoid goblins.

As for the Aldmer, all the Elven races and presumably *part of the Orcs.

Ogou

Bruccius wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Aldmer were the predecessor to all Elven races.

All the Elven races AND orcs.**

Evolving from elves doesn't necessarily make them elves.

In-game texts such as A Warning to the Aldmeri Dominion (quoted below) clearly separate orcs from elves:

We are well aware that the Aldmeri plan nothing less than a return to the Elven domination of the other races, particularly Men and Orcs. They wish to overturn the legacies of the First and Second Empires and wipe them from history. This we shall not allow. Never again will free Men and Orcs submit to the tyranny of Elven oppression!

As in, the people of Tamriel think of orcs and elves as distinct concepts. I'd be interested in more in-game materials on the subject, especially one that refers to orcs as elves (if there is any such text).

Back to the original question, any thoughts on what "beastfolk" even means?

Beastfolk are the races that show beastial features. Argonians are pretty much just humanoid lizards, Khajiit are pretty much just humanoid cats, and Orcs are pretty much just humanoid goblins.

As for the Aldmer, all the Elven races and presumably *part of the Orcs.

Except, the Orcs don't really have any bestial features. Unless you argue that the tusks are boar-like features but that's not much. Seems to me there should be another classification for both both Orcs and goblins (and maybe the betrayed Falmer while we're at it).

Bruccius

Ogou wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Aldmer were the predecessor to all Elven races.

All the Elven races AND orcs.**

Evolving from elves doesn't necessarily make them elves.

In-game texts such as A Warning to the Aldmeri Dominion (quoted below) clearly separate orcs from elves:

We are well aware that the Aldmeri plan nothing less than a return to the Elven domination of the other races, particularly Men and Orcs. They wish to overturn the legacies of the First and Second Empires and wipe them from history. This we shall not allow. Never again will free Men and Orcs submit to the tyranny of Elven oppression!

As in, the people of Tamriel think of orcs and elves as distinct concepts. I'd be interested in more in-game materials on the subject, especially one that refers to orcs as elves (if there is any such text).

Back to the original question, any thoughts on what "beastfolk" even means?

Beastfolk are the races that show beastial features. Argonians are pretty much just humanoid lizards, Khajiit are pretty much just humanoid cats, and Orcs are pretty much just humanoid goblins.

As for the Aldmer, all the Elven races and presumably *part of the Orcs.

Except, the Orcs don't really have any bestial features. Unless you argue that the tusks are boar-like features but that's not much. Seems to me there should be another classification for both both Orcs and goblins (and maybe the betrayed Falmer while we're at it).

Orcs are a larger version of goblins. At least, the original ones. Them having tusks is exactly what makes them beastial, or would you argue tusks are associated with elves or man?

PrayingSeraph

I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

Bruccius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

kylewwefan

Them Bosmer are filthy little canibals as well. How much more bestial can it get? They’re still some kind of elf.

wishlist14

I can understand the confusion since Orcs are by their very appearance more beasty than mer like or elven.
If anything I would have thought they were a Minotaur race crossed with humans rather than mer but I know that's not the case.

PrayingSeraph

Bruccius wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

Bruccius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

Marginis

They are either or both beast and elf - bet and mer - depending on who you ask or what you take as history versus mythology in the game. You can find multiple sources calling Orcs betmer just as well as there are multiple sources claiming they descend from the aldmer. It just depends on what you think actually happened and what you think are just stories and what just might be in-game racism.

Pheefs

Orcs can trace their history back to the old Aldmers, just like the rest of the ELVES

The problem really is "Beast'Folk" is a catch all word without much HISTORICAL meaning.
Khajiits come from elves, Argonians come from the Hist, Orcs are just unpopular

Old Aldmeris then the Ayelids then they all split off into what we know now

PrayingSeraph

Bruccius wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I am not joining in on the debate as I have done so before on s much more in depth thread

However I will point out Bruccius that Bosmer can have horns/antlers and they are still elves. Orsimer are not very beastial

And their horns/antlers are explained in the lore. Orcish tusks are not. Or actually, they are, ya know, larger version of goblins and all that.

Your dismiss the factual evidence in favor of unreliable references. Up to you, but hardly evidence.

Oh, fyi, every Orc has tusks, only some Bosmer have horn/antlers, most don't. Pretty significant difference.

Tusks are explained in the lore. They are a result of Trinimac being corrupted by Boethiah and his followers having the same done to them. Malacath was given tusks, and so his Aldmeri followers were given tusks too.

You made it very clear on the other thread that you are so deadset on this theory of yours that you will ignore anything and everything that points to the contrary. I addressed your sources and explained why I disagreed. Your sources were incredibly flawed but you will never see otherwise.

That and your attitude is why I am not bothering to debate you on this. Whats the point mate? Nothing will convince you orcs are aldmeri descent and your aggressive attitude shows this. The other thread has been linked, and people are free to see the full debate for themselves.

Daedric Lords choose their own appearance; they have no forced identity, making your argument moot.

Oh no, I already showed you that the Orcs being Aldmeri descendent is possible. The idea that they are elves is factually wrong. A fact you ignore because of biases.

Oh? If you agree that orcs are aldmeri descent or atleast strong possibility, then you must understand that at that point, calling them beast/mer/"elves" is purely semantics.

Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races. That Malacath IS the Orc Father like he claims

Pheefs

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races.

@PrayingSeraph If you don't have a copy already, check this out!
an oldie but goodie from the forums, courtesy of Gidorick

PrayingSeraph

Pheefs wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Frankly I don't care what category people choose to classify orsimer as, however I am a strong proponnent of them beimg descendents of Aldmer, through the Trinimac transformation. That they have aldmeri blood in them, like the other mer races.

@PrayingSeraph If you don't have a copy already, check this out!
an oldie but goodie from the forums, courtesy of Gidorick

Yeah I have seen and saved it already. It's fantastic! Thanks!